Subject: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 11 2012 @ 07:31 PM
By: Buddleia

Content:

Sorry to threadjack*, but I really think it's worth mentioning - at the moment, we can't get to the Scrapyard to get and try out these new things. Cyber City is breached yet again.

And so are Ace High and New Pittsburgh, as they have been for nearly all the time, every single time I've logged in, for the last several months. Even with some dedicated players who practically live in the northern cities, constantly trying to lower the alert levels.

I hate to distract you from writing these awesome and inspiring new things, CMJ, but please could you at some point think about rebalancing the Onslaught module?

With a hundred-odd contestants all hanging around in just two cities (and a few Places), gradually driving up the Island-wide spawn rate just by being there, that doesn't seem fair on all the players who don't want to just spend all their time either in those two safe cities or in a breach.

The GitHub suggests at least four places the Onslaught code could be modified - $outpostrate, $spawnrate, $difficulty for starters. (Maybe the Titans could also use a tweak or three, so they don't smashing the walls down to nothing quite so often.) Is it possible to change $numplayers to a local, current-pop-per-city multiplier? Would that work? Does anyone think that might help the whole constant-breaches situation, and let us reasonably-reliably (instead of once in a blue moon after several hours of "work") get to the Scrapyard to try out some of these lovely new things?


* Please someone move this to a new thread if they think it's a good idea.

Moved - Sessine.



Replies:

Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 11 2012 @ 08:31 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Let me just say that I very strongly agree with Buddleia on this. Having three out of eight outposts in near-perpetual breach is a major problem for playability.

Moreover, the situation is getting worse, not better. When they do the Museum quest, the lesson most new players take away from the experience is that there is no reason to go back to those far-off places. They're forever shut down anyway, so why bother? Result: even more players hanging out in KT and NH, with occasional (sometimes involuntary!) trips to IC.

At this point, I believe putting better food in the other outposts wouldn't even work any more. We have too many players who have settled into a routine and formed social bonds; they're not going anywhere. Maybe making $numplayers a per-outpost value would indeed do the trick.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 11 2012 @ 11:31 PM
By: Matthew

Content:

Alternatively, we could just get rid of Onslaught, because it's clearly lost all value as entertainment and the annoyances and difficulty of rebalancing just isn't worth a fundamentally broken game mechanic. The only posts I ever see on the Enquirer having anything to do with Onslaught are to the tune of "this shit is terrible, I can't do anything in this outpost, fuck it".

Maybe make it so that if a Titan reaches the outpost, it is inaccessible until it's taken down? That would be a lot more forgiving.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 12:13 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

If we lose Onslaught, we may well lose Titans too, the two are so integrated -- and I think there are quite a few who would mourn that. Titans are actually fun to fight.

I wouldn't want to see even Onslaught gone altogether. It's not that it's bad, it's just that it's happening all the bloody time in the more isolated places (and never at all in the heavily populated ones). For the reasons Buddleia has outlined, the spawn rate is being pushed up way too high -- the current value is 141% of normal.

A quick fix, if there's no time for rebalancing between outposts, would be to move the difficulty slider. A lot. Making breaches acceptably infrequent in AH, CC, and NP with the slider, of course, would mean there'd be no threat at all anywhere else.

Maybe that's good enough.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 01:17 AM
By: fledermaus

Content:

I second this emotion. It's much too hard to keep the outlying settlements clear... and even when we do manage to clear AH or cc404, the monster level just pops right back up and they re-breach. And that's if those of us who do hang out in the north just dive into the jungles and spam easy/till-someone-drops... which while effective, doesn't leave
any time to appreciate the descriptions or the writing.

I think making the spawn rate scale with the number of contestants in or around each specific outpost, rather than the island wide population, would be helpful... or, as
suggested, just cranking down the spawn rate of the northern outposts...


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 03:08 AM
By: Omega

Content:

On the plus side,* I find frequent breaches in the same place a very good way to constantly get quick drivekills while helping others. If I needed to go to the ScrapYard or any place that's active in the highest danger level, I'll just Enter the breach, run from an enemy, build the walls a little, (Too little to help, even!) then go do what I want and leave. Constant breaches are only a minor inconvenience here!
______________________
Oh, dear little plus side! Look at how alone you are!


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 05:03 PM
By: Maniak

Content:

Onslaught isn't fun. Frankly, it's the exact opposite. It's an endless battle and it wearies me. It's not fun, so it doesn't belong in the game.

I second the motion to scrap it while expressing the hope that, if possible, Titans stay.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 05:39 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

I still don't really know the purpose of Onslaught. Was it to encourage people to work together? I mean, I see that sometimes, but usually only two or three folks who really acknowledge each other. The rest of the time, whenever someone pops over a loudspeaker in Story and asks for help in a breach, they're largely ignored. Like Titans, breaches have become a single-player sport almost. I can't honestly say one way or the other if that's a good thing or not, but I find Titans entertaining, while I do not find breaches as entertaining. I admit, it was a kinda fun mowing down monsters with a cat launcher and a force generator; it's not like there's any monster descriptions to read!

The only benefit I actually see from breaches is, like Omega said, quick leveling for more experienced accounts. "Experienced" in the sense that the player has access to good buffs, weapons, armor, and stamina. Otherwise a breach eats rookies, from what I've seen, and that leads directly to what Sessine pointed out.

I sort of like Matthew's suggestion with the outpost being inaccessible if there's a Titan standing over it. Someone else made this crack to me, though, that they just got this image in their head of a Titan pulling out a giant lawn chair and relaxing on top of the outpost with a giant glass of lemonade, chatting with the regulars until someone killed it. So, in that sense, I do have to wonder what would be the point of Titans if Onslaught disappeared. There'd be no sense of impending doom! (Although, maybe there would in that same way you get that feeling of dread whenever your least favorite inlaws come to visit...)


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 07:01 PM
By: Crysbo

Content:

As Omega mentioned, having the breaches as a very nice way to speed through a DK as you get more experienced is pretty spiffy. Having perma-breaches isn't cool, though. There's been times where I've had a grand Joker day and laid into 300+ enemies only to see the monster metric remain unchanged. Sure, I know it's supposed to be a community effort, but as others have stated before me, it's largely ignored.

Occassionally, I see a clan set out with intent to clean the outpost, only for it to fall again within a game day. Those of us who DO brave the Northern reaches (although I'm guilty of not having been in the West in a very long time) tend to be so infrequent or unorganized that even though one or two of us put a dent in the population (or if it's a long-timer, just blow all the monsters up), enough time passes before the next person shows up that the metric just increases again.

While getting rid of the idea entirely isn't exactly what I'd want to see, something to make the monsters "attracted" to populated outposts in an "ah, fresh meat!" fashion would be more preferable than the current "nobody's there, so that outpost's fux0r3d".

Another idea would be to make it so that the monsters get tired of attacking after awhile. "Nobody's here, this is boring, I'm out," with a despawn metric if enough time without (significant) activity passes. That way, if there's nobody actively fighting there, the town eventually downgrades its threat, maybe even gets a nominal wall when the metric is low enough (50-100k?) and the cycle begins anew. That would create a feeling of "Well, I can help out here now, or just leave it to the inhabitants to fix in time."

As it stands, it really feels like all the NPC contestants are just cannon fodder, doing nothing to stem the tide of enemies or rebuild the walls. Maybe even turning into monsters themselves in a Romero-esque infection.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 09:07 PM
By: Maniak

Content:

Quote by: Crysbo

As it stands, it really feels like all the NPC contestants are just cannon fodder, doing nothing to stem the tide of enemies or rebuild the walls. Maybe even turning into monsters themselves in a Romero-esque infection.


It feels like that because, well, they are. The flavour text of turrets scanning the horizon or the lone robot coming back covered in blood is just that -- flavour text. Nothing at all is happening behind the scenes. There is no mechanism that'll dial back the monsters> Add to that the increased player retention that was introduced lately. It means a larger pool of players (the game doesn't care when they've last been online) who are expected to fight monsters - but don't. You can imagine this only increases the problem.

As for turning NPCs into monsters.. well, a zombie Sheila could be an interesting monster encounter. Breach-only monsters (whose descriptions you can read!) would provide relief and a great incentive to jump into a breach. For 2 whole days, then everyone would go back to business as usual.

We've had dozens of threads dealing with it and some brought forth some very interesting suggestions and proposed improvements. But I think that any time spend on improving it is wasted. Considering CMJ is just one man and as time is a limited resource, I concur that Onslaught can be scrapped.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 09:26 PM
By: Cousjava

Content:

I like onslaught. But fortunately, its ended up that some outposts are perma-breached and others are unaffected. I have a solution to this which doesn't require much work at all, as it is already part of the module. Simply go to city prefs and alter the spwanrate for each outpost Maybe set the 404 spwanrate to 80%, and to make it a bit more interesting at other outposts, say alter Kittania's to 110%, and maybe the same to Pleasantville as well, which is also not affected by onslaught much. I don't know what the exact values should be, but fiddling around with them could make it more interesting by making it more likely for any outpost to be breached.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 09:37 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

I'll be back to deal with this in more detail later, but for now...

the game doesn't care when they've last been online

A player has to have been online within the last week, and have more than one DK, to be counted in the algorithm that spawns monsters. The Onslaught module in Github is waaay old.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 11:02 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

I hear some of you want to do away with the onslaught mechanic altogether. I must respond with a shrug-okay-I-guess, which is totally an actual movement that denotes I don't know whether or not that would be a good idea. What I do know is that Onslaught can be fun, under the correct circumstances. Or, at least to three people.

With that in mind, if you do get rid of breaches, or make it so they rarely ever happen, could an "Outpost of Absolutely No Importance" be created? This Outpost would have nothing in it. No food, no banking, no Eboy's, nothing. Except the monsters, of course, as the Outpost would be constantly breached. BreachFighters would go there to get their happyfuntimes, and other people could just steer clear. Everyone's happy!

Of course, the Town of Absolutely No Importance would be a great place to hide secrets...


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 12 2012 @ 11:45 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

For your "outpost of no importance" - how about the deserted lab complex where the drive was created? The _real_ Improbable Central. The Heart of Go… Darkness.

On the question of breaches:

• Monsters seeking out the populated outposts - gets my vote.

• Cranking down the spawn rate in the far outposts - could work,
but feels, I don't know, unsatisfying somehow… still, if it works…

• It would be nice if you could actually tell if you were making
a dent in numbers... the bands are currently 500 wide which means
you can basically fight all day and see no visible improvement.

• How about a way to port people in? If you slay enough monsters,
you can make it to the outpost's emergency teleport beacon, which
opens up a temporary portal, one way, that lets people port into
the breach from unbreached outposts, for a while anyway, as long
as you can keep it defended. Maybe a "Defend the Beacon" option
from the "Take Stock etc" menu.

• Maybe eboy could set up a camp at or near (outside) breached outposts,
selling supplies (at vastly inflated prices, of course).
Ditto Sheila.



Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 13 2012 @ 12:35 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: fledermaus


• It would be nice if you could actually tell if you were making
a dent in numbers... the bands are currently 500 wide which means
you can basically fight all day and see no visible improvement.

Seconded. If the bands were whittled down to 100 wide, that would let fighters feel they were making some progress.

Also, why is it that the Council reports don't display when an outpost is breached? Technical reasons, perhaps? People have taken to posting comments on the map square, but that information, while true enough at the time posted, is rarely up to date.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 13 2012 @ 08:34 AM
By: Makiwa

Content:

Quote by: fledermaus

• Monsters seeking out the populated outposts - gets my vote.

• Cranking down the spawn rate in the far outposts - could work,
but feels, I don't know, unsatisfying somehow… still, if it works…

• It would be nice if you could actually tell if you were making
a dent in numbers... the bands are currently 500 wide which means
you can basically fight all day and see no visible improvement.

• How about a way to port people in? If you slay enough monsters,
you can make it to the outpost's emergency teleport beacon, which
opens up a temporary portal, one way, that lets people port into
the breach from unbreached outposts, for a while anyway, as long
as you can keep it defended. Maybe a "Defend the Beacon" option
from the "Take Stock etc" menu.



All this sounds great to me. I love the emergency teleport idea but I guess it would be a major headache to implement.

I've got to say I disagree with scrapping onslaught and/or Titans. It's just part of island life y'know. Monsters keep on spawning whatever we do and if they're not kept in check they'll overrun the place.

This has been discussed ad nauseum but the fundamental issue seems to be that not enough contestants hang around in the unloved outposts long enough to thin the hordes. Getting people to hang around those outposts seems to have nothing to do with food, drink, interesting shops/places to explore. Folks arrive drink, eat, visit the scrapyard and leave. Even Dan quests aren't enough and that actually involves fighting and thinning the monster ranks. So why not have an easier way to for a rapid response team / flying squad to pitch up and help an ailing outpost?

Otherwise, or also, this:

Quote by: Cousjava I like onslaught. But fortunately, its ended up that some outposts are perma-breached and others are unaffected. I have a solution to this which doesn't require much work at all, as it is already part of the module. Simply go to city prefs and alter the spwanrate for each outpost Maybe set the 404 spwanrate to 80%, and to make it a bit more interesting at other outposts, say alter Kittania's to 110%, and maybe the same to Pleasantville as well, which is also not affected by onslaught much. I don't know what the exact values should be, but fiddling around with them could make it more interesting by making it more likely for any outpost to be breached.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 13 2012 @ 05:19 PM
By: Wiki

Content:

For some reason, I can't quote because it says I'm not logged in despite obviously being logged in. Go figure?

Makiwa said: "This has been discussed ad nauseum but the fundamental issue seems to be that not enough contestants hang around in the unloved outposts long enough to thin the hordes. Getting people to hang around those outposts seems to have nothing to do with food, drink, interesting shops/places to explore. Folks arrive drink, eat, visit the scrapyard and leave. Even Dan quests aren't enough and that actually involves fighting and thinning the monster ranks. So why not have an easier way to for a rapid response team / flying squad to pitch up and help an ailing outpost?
"

We did, and they were called Trains. The trains were useful like that. While they let you effortlessly hunt the Drive when you wanted, they also let you pop over to outposts for basically free in order to drop alert levels.

The fundamental problem with Onslaught is, we all agree, that the spawn rate is based on the players (Though if CMJ could link us to the current algorithms we could suggest fixes more accurately) population.

The player population is basically focused in the southern outposts: Kitt, IC, and NH. Much of this is for Story reasons: A lot of players come for the RP factor, and clean out monsters second.

So the fixes I can see are thus:

Option 1) Muck with the spawn rate. This is the quickest, most likely to do something outside of straight up cutting Onslaught altogether. This seems more like a bandaid since it might keep the North from being perma-breached, It might also do nothing to stop the number of breaches: Just slow them down. Instead of every day, it'd be more like the alert level is steadily increasing over a week until CC404 breaches every Friday, not every single day.

Option 2) Make Onslaughts more fun, somehow: Readable descriptions for Breach Only monsters? A Breach-specific Lion would be interesting to read, especially if it's on an outpost per outpost basis. Seems to be a bit more work than plausible.

Option 3) Maybe make Titans not insta-gib the walls. Perhaps they'll simply do a ridiculous amount of damage, (Maybe a million HP per unit time). This'll keep the outpost walls from being ripped to nothing by a Titan spawning two tiles away and moving in during lunch. Problem is that they represent a really real threat to high HP outposts: The idea that one sneaky Titan can drop the 85 Million HP at IC instantly is cool. The problem is that Titans almost never ever get to IC: They're a real threat to the towns sitting right on the coasts. So maybe change where Titans are attracted to, and maybe make them do more character level/stat dependent damage. If Titans moved towards populated, high HP-wall outposts at a faster clip than their current, it could a) increase Titan Hunters, b) legitimately but fairly threaten the highly defended unbreachable posts.

Option 4) Monsters seeking populated outposts. This keeps the spawn rate, but instead puts them places where people actually are. Though if this could result in instantaneous Interesting Times for Kitt and NewHome as their spawn rate goes up to ludicrous levels based on the population stationed there. Will require very careful math to determine spawn rates. Maybe work with brackets. -The problem with this is that it removes the incentive for people to actually leave their outposts and explore the map. When the problem just comes over to wherever people congregate, what's the point of the other outposts? I'm not sure there's a surefire way to avoid this problem, other than to put key functions (Scrapyard, etc) in every outpost.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 13 2012 @ 06:07 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

There's a Titan within rumble-distance of its IC goal right this minute. Mind you, it's still quite a few hours away, and sure, someone is likely to kill it before it gets there. Maybe I will. But IC's threat level is also currently Critical, which means the bank, the council office, and the PSK are all closed. Maybe I'd do better to whittle the monster numbers down so I can turn in my Dan quest item. Or maybe I'll just wait and let someone else do it...

The monster spawn rate is currently quite low because very few people are logged in right now... but that doesn't deal with the monsters that were spawned last night. CC404, NP, SH, and AH are all at Interesting Times. The walls still hold in AH and SH, but they're zero in the other two.

If CC404 only came close to breaching every Friday, that would give the players who care some chance to keep it in check... which might encourage more people to take part. People get tired of playing unwinnable games.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 13 2012 @ 06:15 PM
By: Wiki

Content:

Oh, is there one now? Hm. Neato.

And we come back to the fundamental issue: Onslaughts are essentially unwinnable. Fixing a breach has no reward other than XP.

And the ability to use the outpost again...


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 13 2012 @ 11:29 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Hmm... speaking of this "using the outpost" thing, why do things stop working when the outpost is almost breached? And by "almost breached" I mean "has a large amount of monsters outside". To get people to fight more monsters? By making sure they can't bank their money?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 13 2012 @ 11:57 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Hmm... speaking of this "using the outpost" thing, why do things stop working when the outpost is almost breached? And by "almost breached" I mean "has a large amount of monsters outside". To get people to fight more monsters? By making sure they can't bank their money?

That's a good question. I think the theory is, it's supposed to provide an incentive to players to reduce the monster count, so that they can get at the essential services. It does work that way... sometimes. (See my grumbling just up-thread? Well, that did motivate me to fight in IC this afternoon until I could get at the PSK. But the same thing did not work on me yesterday, and is not guaranteed to work tomorrow.)

Seems to me the Bank does stay open to a higher threat level than it used to, though. I think it's now the last thing to close.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 14 2012 @ 02:05 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Hmm... speaking of this "using the outpost" thing, why do things stop working when the outpost is almost breached? And by "almost breached" I mean "has a large amount of monsters outside". To get people to fight more monsters? By making sure they can't bank their money?

That's a good question. I think the theory is, it's supposed to provide an incentive to players to reduce the monster count, so that they can get at the essential services. It does work that way... sometimes. (See my grumbling just up-thread? Well, that did motivate me to fight in IC this afternoon until I could get at the PSK. But the same thing did not work on me yesterday, and is not guaranteed to work tomorrow.)

Seems to me the Bank does stay open to a higher threat level than it used to, though. I think it's now the last thing to close.



Hmm... any incentive to lower the monster levels through fighting would have to make it harder to fight monsters when they reach higher levels. Interesting. Unless, of course, the incentive didn't affect gameplay...
No, I'm not suggesting Story be shut down when monsters are around. Well, I guess I am, technically, but I don't believe it.

But we need this incentive so that people reduce monster count, which we need them to do so the Outpost won't be breached... but they're in the Outpost, and presumably think breaches are a bad thing, so wouldn't they already do that? Or leave, either way? Unless they were just checking out some shiny new features...

There aren't that many features to check out, right?

Hmm... time to go actually play the game and see what happens. Bye!


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 14 2012 @ 03:19 AM
By: Trowa

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

...


The Increased Requisition and Double Requisition payouts based on outpost alert level were created rather recently to be an incentive for battling monsters. I think what Sessine and others are trying to say is, incentives just become band-aid fixes to a larger problem.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 14 2012 @ 04:42 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

...


The Increased Requisition and Double Requisition payouts based on outpost alert level were created rather recently to be an incentive for battling monsters. I think what Sessine and others are trying to say is, incentives just become band-aid fixes to a larger problem.



Oh right! I forgot about the Increased Requisition! Possibly because I generally lose it. Perhaps I need to lower my DK rank...

I eagerly await the time when all these brains smashing together creates the perfect soup of compromise and/or solutions.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 14 2012 @ 01:51 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

The increased req is supposed to encourage you to pile in... of course once
the bank is closed, this will discourage anyone of low DKs because they won't
survive long enough to bank it.

Even for high-DK players, the closed bank is annoying, because you can't
access your cash reserve and must forego stonehenge/the stream/the trail
in case you get boated.

It's definitely a big improvement that the bank stays open for longer
now.


Posted on: March 14 2012 @ 04:10 PM
By: Alice+Carroll

Content:

So I've been playing the game for a couple months now, and lurking in these forums for most of that time. Seeing this thread, I finally got around to registering an account to weigh in.

I should say in advance that I recognize that other people enjoy Onslaughts, and I'm speaking from solely my own views, rather than a position of "I think it would be best for the Island if:".

I hate Onslaughts, and wish they would go away. While some of the things proposed in this thread would make me hate them less, nothing would make me actually like them. The fundamental issue is that Onslaughts are balanced around the total number of players, which is a number so large that my contributions are barely a drop in the bucket. I have no real influence over Onslaughts, because there are thousands, if not tens of thousands of monsters out there, and I can only kill a few dozen. As a result the entire Onslaught system becomes a mechanic where the game sometimes decides "Because other people haven't been killing enough monsters, you can't bank, or use this outpost today". And that's obviously no fun.

No matter how Onslaughts are tweaked, they would still be a system where factors outside my control determine whether or not I get to go to Cyber City today. I'm fine with the basic idea of a resource that's only sometimes available, but not when that resource includes things like banks and dojos, and especially not when it's only the dojos of certain races.

Even putting aside the issue of being unable to contribute to Onslaughts, they ask us to do something we don't necessarily want to do before we'll be allowed to get back to using the outpost, and I think that's dumb.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 15 2012 @ 11:30 AM
By: Twosocks+Monkey

Content:

One thing that I have noticed very few people have mentioned in this thread is the actual 'point' of onslaughts in terms of RP not just game mechanics.

As a die hard canon and flavour text addict, the RP is unquestionable. It's great to read the increasing threat level outpost descriptions, it's another reminder that OMG we're in a WAR on improbability and hey those hovering leeches aren't just cute they might suck all your blood out.

It's great to see that sometimes you stroll into an outpost and are forced to fight. This all makes sense from the canon viewpoint of the game.

I like to see things canon reinforced.

AND I personally hate dealing with breached towns and the lack of say, the PSK.

BUT...I would be very sad it if all just went away for game mechanics reasons, and we lost all the meaty, juicy delicious RP aspects of it.

That is all.

-moo


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 15 2012 @ 05:55 PM
By: Harris

Content:

Quote by: Twosocks+Monkey

One thing that I have noticed very few people have mentioned in this thread is the actual 'point' of onslaughts in terms of RP not just game mechanics.

As a die hard canon and flavour text addict, the RP is unquestionable. It's great to read the increasing threat level outpost descriptions, it's another reminder that OMG we're in a WAR on improbability and hey those hovering leeches aren't just cute they might suck all your blood out.

It's great to see that sometimes you stroll into an outpost and are forced to fight. This all makes sense from the canon viewpoint of the game.

I like to see things canon reinforced.

AND I personally hate dealing with breached towns and the lack of say, the PSK.

BUT...I would be very sad it if all just went away for game mechanics reasons, and we lost all the meaty, juicy delicious RP aspects of it.

That is all.

-moo



This, this, a thousand times this!

Also, don't drop Onslaught. It's not only an excellent expression of the other half of the game, as Rose so aptly put it (the two halves being war and silliness), it is a challenging GAMEPLAY mechanic that is also not anything you have to spend much time on to get what you want (see Omega's strategy earlier in this thread). I love the roleplay in this game, but I rather like having Onslaught because it makes for a nice as well as easy to get to "opt-in" bit of gameplay that is challenging in the later game (later DKs) but not overly so. Titan fighting is a chore to me, because all you get is numbers. Dropping an onslaught gets you and outpost, and makes your fellow players happy(not to mention gets you fat experience point totals, and requisition) ? YES, PLEASE!

If it we change it at all, please only make it so that people can't avoid it simply by going to the popular outposts. Something simple, though. Don't want to hurt folk for going where they wish. Say, ALL banks close, because there are outposts that have fallen (They're obviously networked anyway, or how could we deposit or withdraw from the same money total in any of them?).

Although my strongest vote (again, IF change is deemed necessary) goes to doing something like that, and giving AceHigh a pub (or adding something to it, if that is unwanted/untenable).

As for CC 404, the features and writing in there make it a cool outpost as it is, with LOTS of generously built sleeping spots that will let you regain lost traveling stamina too. People just need to go there more, and try.



Hmmmmm. It occurs to me- maybe our biggest problem with people not wanting to go past their favorite outposts isn't the outposts themselves (though AH is looking pretty spare compared to...EVERYONE, feature/interactivity-wise), but incentive to travel? AH and New Pitts could stand to be built up a bit more to balance out with the other outposts, I go so far as to say CC 404 is as near to perfect as a post will get, buuuuuuut... what are people also always saying?
"I don't want to go there." The way the Onslaught module works is based on how many monsters are killed in an outpost, and how often, no? Well, if a large number of people simply do not want to play in the outposts in question, and instead, only go in, make their transaction, get their buff ,whatever- what about making travel more interesting and rewarding?

Maybe Onslaught is the complaint for some people that it is because we've been looking at Onslaught is the problem to be solved, and not "Why aren't people traveling more?"


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 16 2012 @ 06:00 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Harris


"I don't want to go there." The way the Onslaught module works is based on how many monsters are killed in an outpost, and how often, no? Well, if a large number of people simply do not want to play in the outposts in question, and instead, only go in, make their transaction, get their buff ,whatever- what about making travel more interesting and rewarding?



Allow me to relate to you the parable of the toothbrush and the Tetris.

Once upon a time there was a company who made toothbrushes. In fact, they made all the toothbrushes in the world, because this world had poor anti-monopoly laws, or something. This toothbrush company was making an okay amount of money, but they had a problem. So, one day, the CEO called all the important people into his office for a meeting.

"We have a problem," he said. "According to the latest polls, only 65% of the population brushes their teeth!"

A murmur passed through the assorted important people. Only 65%? That's only slightly over half!

The CEO spoke again. "Now, I want the people to start brushing their teeth, so we can sell them more toothbrushes. Can anyone think of a way? Anyone?"

After a brief pause and another murmur, the young VP of Research and Development stepped forward. "Well, with recent advances in technology, we could fit small computers into toothbrushes for a very low cost. I think we should put Tetris on these computers."

"Excellent idea!" cried the CEO. "And whenever you go to brush your teeth, you'll first have to clear twenty lines! That's sure to get the youth excited, for everyone knows Tetris is really fun!"

Everyone agreed, for Tetris is really fun. The plan was put into action.

Six months later, a nervous intern stepped into the CEO's office. "Um, sir?" the intern asked. The CEO looked up from a house of cards he was build, and asked what the matter was.

The intern shuffled his papers. "Well, sir, it's about the Tetris project," he said.

"Oh?" said the CEO.

"Yes. Um, more people have been buying the toothbrushes to play Tetris--" the intern was cut off by the CEO, who smiled broadly, and said "Excellent!"

"Um," the intern continued, "the problem is that less people are brushing there teeth, now, so we come out poorly in the long-run."

"What?" the CEO was astounded. "Why?"

"Well, sir," the intern replied, "it seems they though it was too much bother."

Then they were both killed by The End of the Parable which lunges at you with a moral of sorts!


In case you were wondering, the moral is that you must be careful that "making something more interesting", to get more people to use it, won't compromise the functionality of that something. So, yeah, just don't do that and you'll be fine.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 17 2012 @ 01:26 AM
By: Buddleia

Content:

I have a sudden urge to play Tetris now...

Quote by: Twosocks Monkey
As a die hard canon and flavour text addict, the RP is unquestionable. It's great to read the increasing threat level outpost descriptions, it's another reminder that OMG we're in a WAR on improbability and hey those hovering leeches aren't just cute they might suck all your blood out.
Quote by: Harris
Also, don't drop Onslaught. It's not only an excellent expression of the other half of the game, as Rose so aptly put it (the two halves being war and silliness), it is a challenging GAMEPLAY mechanic that is also not anything you have to spend much time on to get what you want (see Omega's strategy earlier in this thread). I love the roleplay in this game, but I rather like having Onslaught because it makes for a nice as well as easy to get to "opt-in" bit of gameplay that is challenging in the later game (later DKs) but not overly so.

I agree that Onslaught is really cool in terms of flavour text and storyline and setting a scene for roleplay. Unless you're blatantly ignoring all the canon flavour text (in which case, why are you even playing this game), we are in a war here: we've been conscripted to fight for our lives (as well as for the entertainment and profit of others). It shouldn't all be sitting around having tea-parties, games, snuggling, dating, and purring. There should be some panic and fighting and defending and wall-repairing and monster-hunting. I love it that Onslaught exists.

But ...

It's never felt like an "opt-in" thing for me. You can't roleplay at all in a breached town. You can't really roleplay in a nearly-breached town, either: you can do the odd line of "mycharacter is fighting" or "mycharacter takes a break from fighting", but either way you might be snatched off to the Failboat or the town might breach and then your scene goes poof until you can fix it. This is a pain. It's not fun to play when you're constantly fretting about whether/when the town or your character will vanish. It's not fun to play when your choice of interactions is limited to "write about the Onslaught" or "hope that the monsters don't affect the city, pretend that it's not about to breach and write a more normal scene, and hope that all the other people playing notice what you're doing and play along with your scene-setting". (Or "spend several hours trying to lower the alert level so that then you might be able to write a non-breachy scene".) When only two of the eight towns are not regularly breached or at least under such high attack that the shops are closing, Onslaught gets to be far more of a pain than it is fun to read or roleplay about.

Of course, you can play on the map. Or in a Place. Or in the Common Grounds, or a pub, or similar. But there, unless you've brought some friends with you, you're most likely to end up just calling into the void, writing a solo scene. (Of course, those can be fun too! Great fun, very full of story and character development and silliness. But only if you're in the mood for it.) You hardly ever see people writing on the map or in a Place; when you do, they usually seem involved in a private scene that wouldn't welcome random others to join in. Writing in a populated Outpost, you likely will have plenty of other people to interact with, their lines to respond to and build on. People can come and go and you can do the same. Writing in an empty outpost, while it's still often soloing for a while, you are far more likely to get people to join in and play with you. Writing in an empty outpost that is about to breach ... well, that eventually gets pretty damn boring, for me.



The roleplay issue aside, I still think that constant breaches are bad from a gameplay point of view too. If you want to go and get Scrapyard items, you need to have a day/play a race/play a rank where you have decent travel and fighting abilities. Again, they are not really an opt-in part, but a problem to be worked around or given up on. If you do an Omega (this is a verb now!) and go up the mountain, run into and away in the breach until you can build the wall for a few clicks and then sneak in to the Factory/Scrapyard/Rally (which I had no idea that you could do, and I haven't seen anyone else saying that they do it), you might well have used a lot of stamina by the time you get in, giving you poor value for your cigs. And then when you get out, with red stamina and one hitpoint, you're back in the middle of a breach. What fun! How delightful! Hello Failboat, how charming to see you again!


Quote by: Harris
It occurs to me- maybe our biggest problem with people not wanting to go past their favorite outposts isn't the outposts themselves (though AH is looking pretty spare compared to...EVERYONE, feature/interactivity-wise), but incentive to travel?
....
what are people also always saying? "I don't want to go there."

That is an interesting point. It's not just that people don't want to stay there, they don't want to go there at all. Now, I don't often go to or play in the far-off outposts because they are breached, not because I do not want to travel there. (So much roleplay as well as game-functions that I'm missing out on!) But perhaps there is a significant population of people who think differently. In Newhome, every so often you'll see people in Banter saying "let's go and help NP/AH/CC", and then the new people who just started playing that week say "where is that? Oh, it's too far! I can't afford a teleporter". My feeling on that is that while it's really nice of them to want to help, if you don't even know where a city is, you probably aren't going to get that much of going to a breached city: either you are so low-level that you won't be attacked, and you'll find a dead-quiet city with nothing and nobody in it, or, you will find a breach and die within a few minutes, and probably decide "bugger this for a game of soldiers". (And, in fact, neither will even help unbreach the city all that much.) I would be surprised if travel, in and of itself, was a significant barrier to players who can actually stand up to a breach.


Quote by: Full Metal Lion
Oh right! I forgot about the Increased Requisition! Possibly because I generally lose it. Perhaps I need to lower my DK rank...

If the Bank is closed, you can still buy things at eBoy's to "store" your money. It's not as good as the bank - you'll probably lose some in transactions - but it's a lot better than losing it all when you get Boated. IIRC, One-Shot Teleporters and Monster Repellent Sprays have the best req-to-weight ratio for "storing" your req without taking up too much weight in your inventory; you can also buy and drink Energy Drinks which have the second-best fullness-to-stamina ratios of in-game food.


Quote by: Wiki
For some reason, I can't quote because it says I'm not logged in despite obviously being logged in. Go figure?

My quoting boxes have vanished too. But I just type in the formatting codes because I am that pedantic.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 18 2012 @ 04:32 PM
By: Ada

Content:

Hey Budd,
I actually just watched two people rping in the breached Cyb last night, by using the "Omega method" of reinforcing the walls in between lines. Yes, they were rping Onslaught, and not picking daisies or something, but I found it interesting to watch and even more interesting to read your comment here this morning. Definitely, it was empty. But even before Onslaught Cyb was the empty place - I remember going up there to rp because there were fewer people. It was nice to see them there, anyway.
Anyway.
I went there for the breach (easy exp), but then I remembered this thread and thought I'd try to get into the Scrapyard. And: it was a lot easier than I had expected. It is probably not nearly so easy as a low-level ungeared character, or a newer player, but armed with a plasma gun and at level 11/13 getting in and out was no problem. It took a lot less stamina than I had expected too - you actually don't need to reinforce the walls all that high. You may want to try it, and you may be just as surprised as I was at how easy it is!
That said, the bank and council offices are still out of commission, so it's not to say that there are no problems with Onslaught, just that "getting past Onslaught to the scrapyard" is not nearly as hard as I thought it would be - for me, anyway. Maybe you (or other people) find it a lot harder than I do. Which brings me to my point:
Logging is boring.
Cutting stone is boring.
Fighting in breaches is fun.
Fighting in breaches to recover scrap is fun.
Not everyone agrees with me on the above four points.
Sooooooooo... anyone want to dump some logs and stone at Ada's cottage (two south of AH, pm me if you do this) in exchange for scrap? Big Grin


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 19 2012 @ 01:51 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Tried reinforcing several times. All it seems to do is waste stamina and dump me into another fight. And I have maxed out reinforcement.

I don't think it works when the monster level is too high, which
it almost always is.

To all the people saying "It's fine, just dive into the breach
and reinforce" - it doesn't work that way for everyone, especially
for newbies. And if the only thing they encounter up here is
horrible multi-boating breaches, after they've spent all their
stamina getting here in the first place, why would they ever return?

Anyway, this isn't all going to be whining, I've had another idea:
(I know, two in one year, mark the calendars!)

How about a Dune-esque "Thumper" device, which when activated in
the jungle, dumps you into your own mini-breach situation by
attracting a small horde of monsters. You drop the thumper, and
10-100 monsters (or whatever numbers work) charge you, no hunting
required. The jungles stay cleared by those characters hard enough
to take the monsters on. Those characters get their breach-
accelerated advancement, people who want the city get access,
maybe even with a bank and council office. Everyone wins.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 19 2012 @ 03:05 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

I have started sampling data to find out exactly how the factors of spawn rate and the number of players online interact over time to affect breaches and bank/council office closings. There is likely a weekly pattern, though it'll take me a couple of weeks of data collection to demonstrate this.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 19 2012 @ 04:52 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

There's random per-gameday per-city element to it.
So you'll probably have to sample for quite a while
to iron that one out.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 19 2012 @ 05:56 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Yes... I'm not trying to deduce the algorithm. I'm hoping to model the results to see how much lag there is. (That doesn't follow from the code alone, it also depends on player behaviour.) I don't have enough data yet to draw conclusions about that.

But it's already clear that too many outposts are half shut down for far too much of the time.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 25 2012 @ 11:51 PM
By: LydiaDefountain

Content:

As I work on trying to get Ace unbreached somewhat I had a idea on how to make breaches more fun.. breach only improbable events? Shady salesman type healer offering healing as a improbable event at increased price, and others shady people who might swarm strife torn areas in hopes of profit with things that may or may not help or may even hinder people working on freeing the breach... maybe with breach particular outcomes?

like say a jokerish person who either helps with something that takes a chunk of monsters out, or draws more to the flailing oupost?

I dunno, I'd find that fun and it would draw more people to a breach likely.. maybe? perhaps?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 26 2012 @ 03:04 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

BreachFighting is an expensive sport. That's what I learned, in my most recent adventure. You fight a lot, you lose health and gain XP, but don't get any Req, which you purchase healing with (Unless you're a robot or chem pack user.) So I lost about 4,000 Req total, which I carted to the breach from a nearby Pleasantville. I gained lotsa XP, but I began to think it would be cool to have the breach heal you in some way. Give out ice tokens, redeemable at the hospital tent, or which function as coolant for robots? Do robots work like that? Anyhow, yeah, healing would be nice.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 27 2012 @ 11:05 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Cooling off is cheap for robots... but an emergency coolant pack you could use in combat would be awesome.

As far as healing goes... we only really pay stamina, and
it's quite afforable as long as we keep our HP low.

I did suggest a kind of expensive eboys-temporary-trading post & similar for sheila at breaches - perhaps you could take the opportunity to Loot the Outpost during a breach to scavenge stuff you could sell to eboy too.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 28 2012 @ 11:44 AM
By: Ilovemath224

Content:

Hey guys, as far as Onslaught goes, there have been at least two new updates:

Update 1: The council offices tell you how much HP the walls of each outpost have.
Update 2: There is apparently the ability to send an urgent distress call from an outpost. Don't know how it works, but it exists. Clarification on this more recent feature would be nice.

Thought I'd contribute this so that everybody's on the same page.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 28 2012 @ 02:16 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Ilovemath224

Hey guys, as far as Onslaught goes, there have been at least two new updates:

Update 1: The council offices tell you how much HP the walls of each outpost have.
Update 2: There is apparently the ability to send an urgent distress call from an outpost. Don't know how it works, but it exists. Clarification on this more recent feature would be nice.

Thought I'd contribute this so that everybody's on the same page.

I think the distress call is automatic. The NPCs send it. Also:

Update 3: You get to see how many other player characters are in the outpost with you. This is always going to be interesting to know, especially when your goal is whittling down an outpost's threat level.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 28 2012 @ 06:09 PM
By: Piobaire

Content:

I was going to quote Fledermaus (mous? You expect me to remember spelling from a previous page? Bah!), but I'm getting the "you must be logged in blahblahblah" as well. I've got to agree that breaches are no fun for the newish player. They're not even that fun for me with my magnificent (heh) 8 DKs under my belt. I'm currently playing a midget and even with a mount, I'm burning a large amount of stamina to get to someplace like CC. By the time I get there, there's only a limited number of kills I can make before I'm flat out of stamina, no place in CC to buy food to try and increase it and, even if there were, it'd likely be closed due to the breach. I'm at level 2, so buying a huge number of Rat Packs or spray to avoid some of the stamina-killing fights before I get there isn't feasible and an OST is right out. When I was newer, add in the repeating cycle of "breach--fight--accumulate req but can't bank it--accumulate xp--die--failboat, lose req and xp--start all over and do it five more times, and it wasn't any fun at all.

I really like the emergency transport idea. Some way to get us to a breach with enough stamina to actually do something would be terrific. I'd hate to see onslaughts totally removed; even though I haven't been brave enough to dive into the deep-end of the pool (story), I like the RP idea of it. And Titans are kind of fun. I've never actually taken one down, mind you, but even getting a few good hits on one is fun.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 28 2012 @ 09:37 PM
By: Lunatick

Content:

Personally, I'd rather a way OUT.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 28 2012 @ 10:13 PM
By: Kikuru

Content:

I don't know if it's a result of recent changes, or contestants ramping up the outpost defense, but at the moment there are zero breached outposts! Big Grin


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 28 2012 @ 10:48 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Kikuru

I don't know if it's a result of recent changes, or contestants ramping up the outpost defense, but at the moment there are zero breached outposts! Big Grin


CC404 is even in Peaceful Days! How cool is that?!


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: March 29 2012 @ 11:03 AM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Quote by: Piobaire

I was going to quote Fledermaus (mous? You expect me to remember spelling from a previous page? Bah!), but I'm getting the "you must be logged in blahblahblah" as well.



Caching issue, for me at least: Forcing the browser to reload the
page when I'm at a spurious "you must be logged in" warning seems
to do the trick.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 01 2012 @ 09:47 AM
By: Awesome+Fred

Content:

Quote by: fledermaus

Quote by: Piobaire

I was going to quote Fledermaus (mous? You expect me to remember spelling from a previous page? Bah!), but I'm getting the "you must be logged in blahblahblah" as well.



Caching issue, for me at least: Forcing the browser to reload the
page when I'm at a spurious "you must be logged in" warning seems
to do the trick.



Yep. Every time I log in to make a post, I have to press Ctrl+F5 in order for it to be successful.

-----



Frustration has a place in gameplay. People can play games to relax, and people can play games to challenge themselves. It's not a binary either--I might want the challenge of precise Timed Fighting and heavy strategy, or to just focus on strategy, or to finish my dwelling, or to just grind through mobs in order to finish this DK and start the next. Relax and challenge can both be different aspects within the same game. Anyone who's played World of Warcraft has experienced frantic dungeon-diving and then a nice relaxing stroll through town to just chat, craft, and run between the Auction House and the Bank with no other purpose.

Frustration has no place when people seek relaxing gameplay. Frustration has a delicate place when people seek challenging gameplay. The purpose of frustration is to encourage people away from something, not to discourage people from playing the game altogether. "Encouraging people away from something" is most commonly "don't die". You have punishments/penalties for dying, as a loss condition, to exhort people into not dying. You want to make them use their smarts and determination to avoid the loss condition--that's basically the fun of a challenging game.

Frustration discourages people if they hit the loss condition again and again and again and again, and they'll give up temporarily (and often permanently). You don't want this in your game, unless you have something for the player to do as an alternate thing (like a relaxation area for just chatting, crafting, and running around...) that keeps them playing the game. So you want a scenario where the loss penalty is strong enough to motivate players into "winning", but not so strong that a losing player will outright be unhappy. Amnesia: The Dark Descent will actually make the game easier if you continually die, but then release the monster again right after you pass the difficult part, so you still feel the surprise and consequent horror.



Currently, Onslaught seems like it doesn't strattle that line properly. It's too difficult to keep all the cities afloat for the general populace of the game, and consequently a whole bunch of people have tired of losing again and again (in this case, losing is not dying but is just "not being able to go to CC404") and are getting sick of the game world overall. Onslaught needs to be redesigned, and my opinion is that it needs a fundamental redesign.

So now my two cents:

I think Onslaught needs to be spaced out. It needs to occur once per week in one city. When it happens, it will be a fast-escalating motherfucker that awards LOTS of extra goodies--it'll almost be like a festival for players, people should be asking "Where's Darkmoon Faire the Onslaught happening right now? I want to brain some heads and foot some legs!" And if an insufficient force meets the Onslaught and the monsters win, then for the ONE DAY, the city will be inaccessible. And the next day, no more monsters are added to the fray, so a clean-up crew can evict any remaining monsters and rebuild the city, and the city will be usable until maybe the next occasion, a month away.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 17 2012 @ 02:24 AM
By: Clueless

Content:

Quote by: Awesome+FredSo now my two cents:

I think Onslaught needs to be spaced out. It needs to occur once per week in one city. When it happens, it will be a fast-escalating motherfucker that awards LOTS of extra goodies--it'll almost be like a festival for players, people should be asking "Where's Darkmoon Faire the Onslaught happening right now? I want to brain some heads and foot some legs!" And if an insufficient force meets the Onslaught and the monsters win, then for the ONE DAY, the city will be inaccessible. And the next day, no more monsters are added to the fray, so a clean-up crew can evict any remaining monsters and rebuild the city, and the city will be usable until maybe the next occasion, a month away.[/p]



Alright, time to add a few cents of my own, since I just had a thought on Das Fail Boot (No gremlins were harmed, this time), and the thought just kept on growing until here I came again.. It's a bit of a read, but I hope it's a good one, and down at the Hunting paragraph I have an idea that doesn't require the rest of this to be implemented either, so give that a look if you think the rest is full of bollocks.

Here's the trick- We want something like a Breach, but don't want all the northern outposts and NP to suffer greatly for it. However we don't want it to be a freebie 'come here for XP' either, right? There still has to be the chance that an outpost will get fucked up, but not quite so badly.

My proposal is to change the way that breaches happens in the first place, a slow steady build up of monsters (threat), and the walls slowly degrading? It can still happen, but scale it way down, make it background, something that comes into play later (getting there!). Instead it should be one great push by the monsters, a swarm, with momentum, more like an army, perhaps with a warboss of some sort, one big badass with dreams to be Ghengis Khan or somesuch. This swarm starts to build up, in the jungles, or swamps, the larger it gets the further away it is noticeable from. Once it reaches a large enough size it begins it's march towards it's outpost of choice, and starts to wear away at the walls much faster than the Interesting Times threat level, and in proportion to the group's current population, slower if it's size is reduced by players. If it drops below a minimum size while travelling the swarm will retreat to the nearest jungle/swamp to reinforce, or perhaps just sit there and reinforce.. I like the idea of it retreating because then players can, even if they don't destroy it, get the feeling of pushing back the enemy.

Once the outpost is Invaded (New term to prevent confusion), after the walls have fallen, reinforcements may slowly build up, like Breaches now, but slower. And/Or reinforcement groups, led by a lieutenant, will spawn, similar to the first group, either in the same original square, or nearby, and follows the same pattern of grow/movement/stop/retreat as the first. These will be far smaller, and so easier to dissuade from joining the frey, providing another option for players to make a dent in the enemy without slaying a thousand monsters singlehandedly. Optional- If an outpost has been taken, the walls breached, and the group's size it reduced low enough they will retreat, if some of the Leaders remain,, to recuperate.

When fighting the groups there is a small chance of encountering it's Warboss, or Lieutenant for the reinforcement groups. Killing this foe disbands the group. If in an Invaded outpost, however, the monsters stay, but will not be reinforced by another group anymore unless one already exists and makes it to the outpost. The main group should probably have a backup leader, a Captain, but killing a leader will still dishearten the enemy, giving it a penalty to atk/def/hp for quite some time, or until it is dealt with. The Leaders, I'd figure, would have extra Req and Ciggies on them, perhaps some eBoys items, with a chance to access your inventory to discard/transfer items if you need to so that you're not overweight.. Thanks to a convenient lull in the battle from you slaying such a powerful foe of course!


I propose that the Warboss be the equivalent of a lv16 final Dan Quest monster in strength, with the Captains and Lieutenants being lv14/12s, and the equivalent to the non-final monsters. Or perhaps scale it to player level, but for these foes I think set levels... Maybe +/- 2 or so. Or maybe they get weaker as the group decreases in size? Loss in pride and prestige due to their army being annihilated.. I figure that anything being a Warboss or other Leader would be of sufficient intelligence for them to matter to them.

Potential options- Before the Invasion, and perhaps during it, but before the Outpost is taken, when the group is encountered have ranges of 'hunting', similar to how hunting is normally, except in bands of 5 levels or so. Go for the fodder/scouts lvls 1-5 or so, more experienced and fiercer looking monsters 5-10, and the veterans 10-15, all of these being averages, with the chance of higher/lower level monsters appearing. This should enable younger/newer players to have a chance, unlike in breaches where a level 5 or so can get jumped by a lv17 (or was it 16?) TigerShark Goddess and get their ass handed to them. This being said there are only so many of each band of monster in the group, you can't hunt the easy ones into the ground and call it a day.. But having any of the three populations drop too low will cause the group to attempt reinforcement. Taking out the Leaders should also slow movement of the group, and the rate at which it can tear down walls.

I recommend the first group be.. Say about 1.5k monsters, that's what it builds up to before setting out for an outpost, reinforcement groups about 300-500 monsters. And, as has been mentioned before, they are attracted to populous outposts. That's where there'd be the most req (shinies?) and cigarettes, the most to eat and kill, the most glory to gain from attacking. Bandits raid insignificant villages, armies take cities.

(Idea even without the rest of Invasion within here)
Hunting in an outpost that is currently being Invaded, but the walls still hold, 1) counts for fighting the group as far as it's population, and 2) results in a significant stam buff to hunting, which is something that would make sense to be in place already, really. If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them? Even without implementing the rest of this idea, I really think that the stam buff would both make sense, and encourage people to help out outposts at Critical or Interesting. Hunting within the Group should also have a stam buff.. After all they're right there, aren't they? Perhaps a bigger buff based on the population of the band you are hunting? More targets, easier to find.

Perhaps, like Titans, have a bonus Req reward for actions against these groups, and favor as well? I'd love a way to gain favor during a day, other than the incredibly minute chance of the old man rewarding you with favor instead of stealing a cigarette, or, y'know, boating you.. Anyways, I'd much prefer a Favor reward over a Req reward. You can earn Req all over the place.. Favor is hard to come by when you try to DK every few days, but going further into that would start to turn this into an entirely different discussion.


Alright, so there's my proposal.. Whatd'ya think?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 17 2012 @ 01:30 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 17 2012 @ 06:41 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Clueless

Alright, so there's my proposal.. Whatd'ya think?


1) This needs it's own thread.
2) I believe each square is supposed to be 1 km squared, making the entire island 1000 km squared (25*40).
3) I realized something: This is like Titans, re-imagined to be horizontal instead of vertical and to be smarter.
3b) Or if Titans and Onslaught were put in a blender.
4) The "warboss" should be called a "God".
5) The Gods should be stronger.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 17 2012 @ 10:10 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Titans, anyone? Neutral


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 17 2012 @ 09:47 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Clueless

Alright, so there's my proposal.. Whatd'ya think?

4) The "warboss" should be called a "God".
5) The Gods should be stronger.

No gods, please! Especially not as warbosses. Gods would clash horribly with the rest of the canon.*

* Undead Dreaming Catfish God and his mother The Living Nightmare Tigershark Goddess are delightful as individual Improbability-created monsters, equal in strength to any other monster of the same level. But 'gods' don't receive any special privileges or powers on the Island when they're player characters, and it would set a very bad precedent to make one into a big canon warboss of a monster army. This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 17 2012 @ 10:26 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Titans, anyone? Neutral

The Island's Titans are nothing like the mythological Titans. Ours are called Titans 'cause they're big, is all.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 17 2012 @ 10:49 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Titans, anyone? Neutral

The Island's Titans are nothing like the mythological Titans. Ours are called Titans 'cause they're big, is all.


Oh, you were worried about brushing with more of the mythology. All right. I just wanted to call them Gods because they were (will be? Will have been, possibly) smaller than Titans, but still awesome.
Don't make me mention the succubus.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 17 2012 @ 11:19 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Titans, anyone? Neutral

The Island's Titans are nothing like the mythological Titans. Ours are called Titans 'cause they're big, is all.


Oh, you were worried about brushing with more of the mythology. All right. I just wanted to call them Gods because they were (will be? Will have been, possibly) smaller than Titans, but still awesome.

Oh. Sorry, seems I totally missed your point! Oops!

One might want to call them Knights, also smaller than Titans but still powerful, except of course that would then be open to a medieval misinterpretation. (Besides -- pop culture.)


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 18 2012 @ 12:07 AM
By: Clueless

Content:

Ok, made a thread for my splinter, because it seems to be derailing things!

Please go [urlhttp://enquirer.improbableisland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=27636]Here[/url] for all Onslaught by Invasion discussion Mr. Green


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 18 2012 @ 03:42 PM
By: dizzyizzy

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.



Or the unofficial story, i.e. roleplay. Can we fight about this again? It's been a while.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 18 2012 @ 10:40 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?



I was starting to think "Hell, I'm gonna start fucking with the Stamina cost for Hunting to get people around the different Outposts," but didn't think my players would go for it so I shelved the idea for later consideration.

But if my players are bringing it up... Twisted Evil


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 19 2012 @ 06:08 AM
By: Awesome+Fred

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?



I was starting to think "Hell, I'm gonna start fucking with the Stamina cost for Hunting to get people around the different Outposts," but didn't think my players would go for it so I shelved the idea for later consideration.

But if my players are bringing it up... Twisted Evil



DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 19 2012 @ 07:15 AM
By: Clueless

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?



I was starting to think "Hell, I'm gonna start fucking with the Stamina cost for Hunting to get people around the different Outposts," but didn't think my players would go for it so I shelved the idea for later consideration.

But if my players are bringing it up... Twisted Evil




YEEEESSSSSSS!!!!

The people who don't care about DKs still aren't going to care, and the people who care about DKs are going to have reason to drag the others to the less traveled outposts! I think.

However I'd not recommend penalizing costs if all outposts are Peaceful. Perhaps set up an Average Threat, and depending on how far above/below the Average an individual outpost is, the more/less buff/debuff occurs there! Just so that when the Isle is peaceful we're not penalizing people for doing a good job on threat levels (well, any more than the reduced Req payouts.. Speaking of which, do those on an Average as well? Mr. Green )



Also, I coulda sworn I fixed the link in my last post on page 11.. But now I can't even edit it. How annoying!


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 19 2012 @ 03:05 PM
By: Ada

Content:

Quote by: Clueless

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?



I was starting to think "Hell, I'm gonna start fucking with the Stamina cost for Hunting to get people around the different Outposts," but didn't think my players would go for it so I shelved the idea for later consideration.

But if my players are bringing it up... Twisted Evil




YEEEESSSSSSS!!!!

The people who don't care about DKs still aren't going to care, and the people who care about DKs are going to have reason to drag the others to the less traveled outposts! I think.

However I'd not recommend penalizing costs if all outposts are Peaceful. Perhaps set up an Average Threat, and depending on how far above/below the Average an individual outpost is, the more/less buff/debuff occurs there! Just so that when the Isle is peaceful we're not penalizing people for doing a good job on threat levels (well, any more than the reduced Req payouts.. Speaking of which, do those on an Average as well? Mr. Green )



Also, I coulda sworn I fixed the link in my last post on page 11.. But now I can't even edit it. How annoying!




Definitely agreed here, especially for NewHome. It's almost always at reduced req payouts, which is a bit of a rough way to get started as a newbie. Having it harder to find monsters, too, would be even more unfair.

Though I have to admit I don't know why we're still concerned with getting people to "less-travelled" outposts. This is what the threat levels look like right now, which is pretty standard for recently:
Improbable Central: Quiet Times (87,466,623 Defense Hitpoints)
Cyber City 404: Minor Activity (5,903,437 Defense Hitpoints)
NewHome: Peaceful Days (reduced Requisition payouts) (6,353,477 Defense Hitpoints)
Kittania: Quiet Times (6,228,755 Defense Hitpoints)
New Pittsburgh: Minor Activity (8,245,964 Defense Hitpoints)
Pleasantville: Peaceful Days (reduced Requisition payouts) (117,952,544 Defense Hitpoints)
Squat Hole: Quiet Times (22,554,161 Defense Hitpoints)
AceHigh: Minor Activity (5,515,213 Defense Hitpoints)

Sure, the regularly less-visited outposts are at the highest threat level, but they're still in no danger at all. I think there's only been one breach, in Cyb, since the council offices had wall hp readouts and the loudspeakers were installed. Why send more people to Cyb-AH-NP? They're already safe.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 19 2012 @ 04:44 PM
By: Clueless

Content:

Quote by: Ada

Though I have to admit I don't know why we're still concerned with getting people to "less-travelled" outposts. This is what the threat levels look like right now, which is pretty standard for recently:


Quote by: Ada
Sure, the regularly less-visited outposts are at the highest threat level, but they're still in no danger at all. I think there's only been one breach, in Cyb, since the council offices had wall hp readouts and the loudspeakers were installed. Why send more people to Cyb-AH-NP? They're already safe.


The problem isn't 24/7, thankfully, but what about, say, two months ago, when NP, AH, and 404 were almost permanently breached? There wasn't a day for a long time when one of them wasn't at least at Interesting Times.. Heck New Pitts and Ace are about to go to Critical right now it seems, which I plan on stopping (Wait, Stonehenge boat visit. Owell..), but one person can only do so much. Safe at the moment isn't the same thing as a safe outpost; I've definitely seen Ace, NP, and perhaps Central go critical or worse a few times during the past week.. Probably because I tend to keep odd hours compared to the majority of players, but it still happens, and we shouldn't depend on a few players to keep those outposts afloat, they won't always be around to help. That we ever have so many outposts in such dire need as to have even two, far less three breached at a time is a sign that something is wrong. It's a war zone, but not one hopelessly lost.


As far as not penalizing newbies, perhaps have the stam buff/debuffs N/A to characters with zero DKs? Or perhaps just the debuff? Something to help start off, just like the breach immunity until level 10.


And beyond Threat levels- Why not spread the players out a bit more? Those outposts are just as perfect for RP as the others, with different, newer possibilities! NewHome and Kitt just get far too crowded sometimes as well, I'll forsake them because I can't pay constant attention, and every time I glance in, even if it's been only five minutes, there are two entire pages to check for things pertaining to me, my character, my group, yadda yadda.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 19 2012 @ 05:43 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Ada


Definitely agreed here, especially for NewHome. It's almost always at reduced req payouts, which is a bit of a rough way to get started as a newbie.

They do have those free grenades.
Quote by: Blue's Clueless


And beyond Threat levels- Why not spread the players out a bit more? Those outposts are just as perfect for RP as the others, with different, newer possibilities! NewHome and Kitt just get far too crowded sometimes as well, I'll forsake them because I can't pay constant attention, and every time I glance in, even if it's been only five minutes, there are two entire pages to check for things pertaining to me, my character, my group, yadda yadda.

I agree. Seems NH and Kit (and FailBoat) are the only two places I can strike up a conversation. But I'm told those who are there and chatting wouldn't be affected by the Stam costs for hunting. Because they mostly chat.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 19 2012 @ 07:26 PM
By: Ada

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion


I agree. Seems NH and Kit (and FailBoat) are the only two places I can strike up a conversation. But I'm told those who are there and chatting wouldn't be affected by the Stam costs for hunting. Because they mostly chat.



This exactly. They are there to chat. Making it easy to DK somewhere else is not going to make them go there. People who just want to chat are going to sit in NewHome and Kittania like they pretty much always have. There's nothing wrong with that and no reason to move them.

About the grenades - any human player gets free grenades. It's not really a huge help to rookies in particular. Having the stam buffs set to N/A for players with 0 DKs (or even less than 5 - really, the 2nd DK isn't that much easier - imagine going from human to kittymorph AND getting the stam debuff all in one go) sounds like a good idea. Though I don't really think it's reasonable to debuff players just for playing where they want to play (do we really want to make it suck more than it already does to go questing?). Simply giving a stamina buff in the monster-loaded outposts seems more fair; though, to be honest, I think the increased req is a big enough reward as it is. Making it easier to fight in outposts in trouble will disproportionately benefit established players - and before someone suggests debuffing those players for being established, that doesn't sound any more fair to me either.



Clueless: What about two months ago? Two months ago was before the outpost hitpoints in Council Offices and before loudspeakers. It doesn't make any sense to hold something that happened before an update that seems to have changed things as evidence for why we should change them further. If you are still deeply unsatisfied with how things are now - that's something else.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 19 2012 @ 08:12 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

Well, I'm not so much concerned with moving players around, I was just wondering about the stamina costs. It would be attractive to players like me who play this game for more than just chat. When the req payouts changed, it was a big deal for a week or two, and then I haven't seen anyone mention it since (until this thread). I don't have a problem with people who stay in New Home and Kittania, far be it from me to tell them what to do (and quite frankly, I've found much of the discussion on that topic to be quite silly).

My question (Clue's idea) was more along the lines of why does it cost more stamina to hunt down monsters among a swarm supposedly battering down the walls than it does to travel to the next outpost? When the walls breach, hunting costs nothing because the monsters come to you. The moment you step into the jungle, though, the monsters lose all interest in you.

It'd be like if the jungle were breached, but not the outpost yet. (Oh that's evil, innit?!)


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 19 2012 @ 11:21 PM
By: Clueless

Content:

Quote by: AdaThis exactly. They are there to chat. Making it easy to DK somewhere else is not going to make them go there. People who just want to chat are going to sit in NewHome and Kittania like they pretty much always have. There's nothing wrong with that and no reason to move them.


I agree with there being nothing wrong with them being there, but there are reasons to move people, like I said during peak hours it gets too busy, and this dissuades people who can't spare every moment to the Isle from getting in Story, as well as those who are inexperienced- They look at story, have no idea what is going on and can't catch up. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have five (active in story) people each in Kitt, Central, and PV rather than 2 in Central, 2 in PV, and 11 in Kitt. Numbers just an example. I'd rather have twenty five people in every outpost! (And then I'd just drag a few off to Places to avoid the crowd.)


Quote by: Ada
About the grenades - any human player gets free grenades. It's not really a huge help to rookies in particular. Having the stam buffs set to N/A for players with 0 DKs (or even less than 5 - really, the 2nd DK isn't that much easier - imagine going from human to kittymorph AND getting the stam debuff all in one go) sounds like a good idea. Though I don't really think it's reasonable to debuff players just for playing where they want to play (do we really want to make it suck more than it already does to go questing?). Simply giving a stamina buff in the monster-loaded outposts seems more fair; though, to be honest, I think the increased req is a big enough reward as it is. Making it easier to fight in outposts in trouble will disproportionately benefit established players - and before someone suggests debuffing those players for being established, that doesn't sound any more fair to me either.


The defbuff isn't really my idea, I'd say that it be pretty small, and only during Peaceful Threat, because there are really almost no monsters around.. Or do without the debuff, but this is all up to CMJ.. As for Req being enough incentive, it obviously isn't enough to get most people out and around. To get the Story only folks to go to other outposts you need Story there, typically, and one way of getting Story there is to draw Hunters there, some of us like to Story quite a bit, I don't know everyone who is a heavy hunter and Storrier, but from what I've seen those of us who like hunting the most will travel outwards anyways, but typically we're alone, those who hunt less, but still Story a bunch tend to stick in NH, Kitt, and sometimes Central, because that's where the Story is, and there isn't enough incentive to go elsewhere.. If we draw out more of the casual hunters there will be enough people to have more regular Story in the other Outposts, and the Story only folk will probably follow their friends, or strike out simply because they can go somewhere new and actually do something there with other people. PV used to be very regularly storied in, and Central isn't too desolate. We might not have enough people to have all the Outposts as story active as we'd like, but if we have more of a player base through PV and Central they are far more likely to go to Ace, NP, and 404, as those other Outposts will be closer, and they'll have access to the awesome food in PV to support the stam cost of going that far.


Quote by: Ada
Clueless: What about two months ago? Two months ago was before the outpost hitpoints in Council Offices and before loudspeakers. It doesn't make any sense to hold something that happened before an update that seems to have changed things as evidence for why we should change them further. If you are still deeply unsatisfied with how things are now - that's something else.[/p]


I highly doubt that the loudspeakers and wall HP displays did that, all the HP display really does is tell you whether or not an Outpost is breached, or about to breach, instead of just at Interesting Times. This is useful, I agree, there are times when you just don't want to risk going to Ace if it is breached but you can't tell, however this is not the reason that the Northern Outposts are safer, for now, than before. I took Ace, 404, and NewPitts up to green Threat levels maybe dozens of times during some of the dark times, so it was obvious that they were not about to breach, but regardless of knowing that the outposts were not breached, as the HP display does, those outposts would still fall back to Critical/Interesting within a day. Therefore knowing that an outpost was not breached is not what helped it's threat in a major way. The problem was the fallout from the holiday season, there were far fewer players online and hunting, and the Outposts suffered greatly, we only finally and more than temporarily recovered from it when CMJ tweaked the numbers for Threat level change.. There were more people active in the Northern outposts before the slump, and it just hasn't gotten back to that state yet. We can support the Outposts being at reasonable Threat levels with the former settings, we were doing it before, we can do it again... We just need enough of the player base to spread out..

Which brings me to the only thing that I am unsatisfied about- the player distribution. There's all the other outposts, great for RP, and for those that like to hunt on the side some of them have better drinks, and PV better food! For robots 404 has the only useable bar outside of the PSK. In the middle of the night of most of the player base when there are 20-25 people on I don't expect every Outpost to be active.. Hell I've seen every Outpost Story dead before, for several hours even.. But when there are 100~ people online- having everyone in two Outposts is silly.



My question as to what is wrong with offering incentives to spread out players still stands. None of my suggestions force anyone to do anything, they're all opportunities. (The stam debuff was Trowa's addition to my idea, which I totally did mindreading on CMJ to have in the first place. Yep. Swear on, uhh... Something inconsequential.)


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 20 2012 @ 12:23 AM
By: Ada

Content:

Right now there are 100 players online. 13 people are in NewHome. 9 in IC. 15 in Kittania. That's including my character in each number, so take me out of the equation in each for a total of only 34 people in those outposts. That means 65 (let's not count me again) players are not in NH, IC, or Kitt. That's nearly 2/3 - and there is no story happening in any of the other outposts. 2/3 of the players have left NH, IC, and Kitt - and they aren't writing in the other outposts, either. Everyone is not in two outposts - everyone is writing in two (or, now, three, though two is more common). That's not the same thing, and I'm skeptical that encouraging hunters to leave would change the numbers much.

I don't doubt that the loudspeakers and hp displays contributed to the ease in onslaught. I suspect we may have also had the overall difficulty nudged, but the fact is that for at least a month before that change outposts were continually breached; since that change, outposts almost never breach. While the change may have many, many factors, it was instantaneous - and I can't really see an instant change as "fallout from the holiday season".


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 20 2012 @ 01:04 AM
By: Awesome+Fred

Content:

The reason Onslaught isn't being totally axed is because it's not totally undesirable. It's 1) an interesting game feature and 2) a great reminder of the war-focused setting of the island.

The biggest problem we had with Onslaught, however, was that it made it difficult for players to access the northern cities. We reasoned as a whole that if we could encourage players to redistribute themselves across the world map, it would make northern cities defended again.

We had a lot of trouble getting players to redistribute themselves without providing unbalancing incentives. We gave increased Req payouts, we increased the amount of unique features in the northern cities, we made players more aware of which cities needed help, etc. They weren't enough.

But now?

I guess maybe the problem might be solved. Maybe we don't need to work at moving population around for the sake of northern cities. Maybe getting the players to fan out to other cities more evenly is an unnecessary goal now.



But as a power player, I would love to visit more of the island as I play to optimize my performance. It becomes another factor to weigh between which outpost for req, which one for food convenience, which one for Danquest, which one near my dwelling, etc. I would totally love it if we had variable Hunting stamina costs.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 20 2012 @ 01:18 AM
By: Clueless

Content:

Quote by: Ada


I don't doubt that the loudspeakers and hp displays contributed to the ease in onslaught. I suspect we may have also had the overall difficulty nudged, but the fact is that for at least a month before that change outposts were continually breached; since that change, outposts almost never breach. While the change may have many, many factors, it was instantaneous - and I can't really see an instant change as "fallout from the holiday season".



The fallout I mean was everything still being breached/Threatened like mad becuase no one got around to getting back out to the other outposts, building the walls up beyond a million HP, and hanging around. Everything got fixed because of CMJ nudging the numbers, as was mentioned.. Somewhere on the forum, I don't remember where exactly though.. Threat happens far more slowly now it seems.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 20 2012 @ 03:56 PM
By: Clueless

Content:

I hate to double post, but I can't edit after this long..


Just as a reminder about Threat levels, and how they definitely are still a concern..

Improbable Central: Minor Activity
Cyber City 404: Assistance Required (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
NewHome: Minor Activity
Kittania: Peaceful Days (reduced Requisition payouts)
New Pittsburgh: Interesting Times (doubled Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
Pleasantville: Critical Situation (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
Squat Hole: Critical Situation (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
AceHigh: Assistance Required (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)


Five of the outposts are so threatened that Req payouts are increased. Only Kittania is 'Safe'.


And with that, I need sleep, it's 0100 here.. Have fun with the Threat guys and gals~


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 20 2012 @ 04:54 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Clueless

Just as a reminder about Threat levels, and how they definitely are still a concern..

Improbable Central: Minor Activity
Cyber City 404: Assistance Required (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
NewHome: Minor Activity
Kittania: Peaceful Days (reduced Requisition payouts)
New Pittsburgh: Interesting Times (doubled Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
Pleasantville: Critical Situation (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
Squat Hole: Critical Situation (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
AceHigh: Assistance Required (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)


Five of the outposts are so threatened that Req payouts are increased. Only Kittania is 'Safe'.


And with that, I need sleep, it's 0100 here.. Have fun with the Threat guys and gals~

That looks to be tuned about right, to me. Not so bad that outposts are perpetually breached, but not so boring that we all forget there's a war on.

We're going to see daily fluctuations -- threat levels will creep up when there are only 15 players logged into the Island, but they'll be beaten right back down again when we have 115.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 20 2012 @ 11:16 PM
By: Awesome+Fred

Content:

The weather is not the season. The season is not the climate. We need to record average durations of breaches, not random time-check data points.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 21 2012 @ 12:06 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

The weather is not the season. The season is not the climate.


But the hawk is the handsaw!

... I haven't seen a breach since everything went comparatively quiet. But I hear one happened in cc404. Regardless! We need graphs and charts! They will make our decisions more accurate. However, just breaches isn't enough! We need a nice record of the threat & wall levels in all the outposts, recorded, say, hourly. (Unless breaches clear up under an hour.)


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 21 2012 @ 12:16 AM
By: Awesome+Fred

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

The weather is not the season. The season is not the climate.


But the hawk is the handsaw!

... I haven't seen a breach since everything went comparatively quiet. But I hear one happened in cc404. Regardless! We need graphs and charts! They will make our decisions more accurate. However, just breaches isn't enough! We need a nice record of the threat & wall levels in all the outposts, recorded, say, hourly. (Unless breaches clear up under an hour.)



I thought the issue was breaches. If nothing stays breached for more than 2 hours per breach on average, and no city is breached for more than 8 hours per 168 (a 7-day week), then hasn't the issue been solved?

Nevertheless, if you do want to record other variables, you're free to do so. I can see the merit of collecting that data in case we went too far in the opposite direction.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 21 2012 @ 12:28 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Awesome+Fred


I thought the issue was breaches. If nothing stays breached for more than 2 hours per breach on average, and no city is breached for more than 8 hours per 168 (a 7-day week), then hasn't the issue been solved?

Nevertheless, if you do want to record other variables, you're free to do so. I can see the merit of collecting that data in case we went too far in the opposite direction.


Plus, I'd get to see how the numbers change behind my back (I suspect they go up).


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 21 2012 @ 01:25 PM
By: Buddleia

Content:

/ raises hand /

I hereby volunteer to make graphs and charts if people want to send me data ...


I guess it would be hourly, ideally. Or at least daily (at the same time each day). Assuming that CMJ doesn't have some bit of code that will record/display this automagically, and that we need to take point data samples.

So, anyone want to sign up to take Onslaught/Breach readings? I think we'd need a rotating team of people who can pop into the Council Offices on the hour every hour, each person doing a section of the day, so that a) we get full coverage and b) I'm not drowned in overlapping Distractions.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 21 2012 @ 05:22 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

I can volunteer for GMT 23:00-2:00. And a bit of code that would do this would be nice. Like some greasemonkey-fu or something. But whatever.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 21 2012 @ 05:49 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

I don't know anything about greasemonkey scripting, but Buddleia and I have been experimenting with gdoc Forms for gathering the data. If we can get it all pretty and streamlined, would some of you guys be interested in using that instead of copy/pasting the council display into a distraction to her?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 24 2012 @ 12:50 AM
By: Buddleia

Content:

Sessine has been wonderfully patient with my pedantry, and made a beautiful form and sensible spreadsheet from my first tabled efforts.



This is the form!


You just need to click once for each outpost, selecting a toggle. No typing or copy-pasting levels or wall numbers; just select the alert level number - whether each outpost is in Peaceful Days, Quiet Times, or right up to Breached.

So, if anyone would like to help gather data - just open that, pop into the council offices, and click as appropriate. When you hit Submit on the form, it will automatically add a row of timestamped data to the spreadsheet. Ideally it'd be collected hourly, but if we have some gaps it won't really matter, and if ten people do a form in one hour it also won't really matter!

Oh, and, of course you can see the spreadsheet of numbers, too. And graphs. We made graphs.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 24 2012 @ 01:32 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Wonderful! Of course, I immediately submitted some numbers that were unhelpfully similar to what they were 4 minutes before, but that is still progress! Thank you.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 24 2012 @ 10:23 AM
By: Lunatick

Content:

That's pretty damn interesting. I can't wait to see what it looks like in a few months so long as we all keep up on it.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 24 2012 @ 01:58 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Hm... looks like I was a bit too slow - but I've put together
a single-click upload-from-council-to-a-gdocs-spreadsheet
greasemonkey script.

http://users.pepperfish.net/vivek/ii/ii-council.user.js

uploads to

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArkyFQnCjG4ndGhXM0ROclE2U3pURmdWLWNFMlRqTnc

automagically.

It records the time, threat level and wall points.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 24 2012 @ 10:01 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: fledermaus

Hm... looks like I was a bit too slow - but I've put together
a single-click upload-from-council-to-a-gdocs-spreadsheet
greasemonkey script.

http://users.pepperfish.net/vivek/ii/ii-council.user.js

uploads to

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArkyFQnCjG4ndGhXM0ROclE2U3pURmdWLWNFMlRqTnc

automagically.

It records the time, threat level and wall points.

That's way cool!

I wonder if there's any way to hook the two pieces together? ...I don't know if Google Forms is willing to 'play nice' with data inserted separately. Even if not, having the two separate views of what's happening will be enlightening. For one thing, you're capturing the wall points, which gives a more complete picture of what's happening, especially at threat level 8.

Is it possible to convert your timestamp to EDT datetime? That would make cross-checking back and forth easier. (Forms doesn't offer flexibility there. You just get what you get.)


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 24 2012 @ 10:36 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Maaaaybe. Never looked at google forms before. The EDT conversion should
be trivial though.

( Not going to look at it right now - I'll just end up pulling
another all-nighter and I am Far Too Old for that. )


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 24 2012 @ 10:39 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

I do encourage (a few) other people to install the GM
script though, that way we'll get samples from times
when I'm not around too.

Hm... I _could_ create a script that would log in
once an hour and sample the council office in
kittania.

Would that be against the II rules (such as they are)
in any way?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 24 2012 @ 11:49 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: fledermaus

I do encourage (a few) other people to install the GM
script though, that way we'll get samples from times
when I'm not around too.

Hm... I _could_ create a script that would log in
once an hour and sample the council office in
kittania.

Would that be against the II rules (such as they are)
in any way?

That would be for CMJ to say. For now, I think we can gather more than enough data with volunteer contributors. It's not like we're going for machine-like exactitude, here -- only a general sense of what's happening.

We can see from the data accumulated already that the spawn rate must be subject to considerable random variations; sometimes an outpost remains very stable, and sometimes the threat level will shoot up suddenly.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 25 2012 @ 12:10 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Had a look at the form... if I understand it correctly, it's backed by
a google docs spreadsheet - I can either update the spreadsheet directly
if you give me access to it, or I can try to submit the form
from the greasemonkey script...

If you want me to set it up, it would be handy if you cloned
the form & spreadsheet into a test version do I could get
things working without filling them with garbage test data.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 25 2012 @ 02:20 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: fledermaus

If you want me to set it up, it would be handy if you cloned
the form & spreadsheet into a test version do I could get
things working without filling them with garbage test data.

You've got it. Big Grin


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 25 2012 @ 04:51 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Quick question - where do the dates come from - are they part of the form submission, or special formatting in the spreadsheet, or what?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 25 2012 @ 05:42 PM
By: Buddleia

Content:

They are automatically generated by the Form. When someone hits Submit, it adds the timestamp of the entry to column A, and the answer to question 1 into column B, question 2 to column C, etc.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 12:41 AM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Okay… updated the GM script. It now has buttons to send the
data to my spreadsheet, and to your form - The one to your
form currently targets the form that feeds the test spreadsheet,
but if you try it out and are happy with it, we can swap out
the test form URL for the live one and publish the GM script.

let me know how/if it works and if you'd like any changes to it.

http://users.pepperfish.net/vivek/ii/ii-council.user.js


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 03:32 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Welp -- I went and downloaded Greasemonkey, and installed the script... and it looks like it's in place and activating when I'm at the Council page, but I am not seeing any buttons. What should I be looking for? Would the fact that I'm using a Mac (OS X 10.5.8) cause a problem?

You've been adding data to the test form via the script, though, and that doesn't seem to have interfered with any of the forms-related functions or the graphs. So, applause! This is all very, very cool.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 05:44 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Welp -- I went and downloaded Greasemonkey, and installed the script... and it looks like it's in place and activating when I'm at the Council page, but I am not seeing any buttons. What should I be looking for? Would the fact that I'm using a Mac (OS X 10.5.8) cause a problem?

You've been adding data to the test form via the script, though, and that doesn't seem to have interfered with any of the forms-related functions or the graphs. So, applause! This is all very, very cool.


I also have no buttons. I'm running Chrome on Windows XP. And my paranoia senses are tingling about the "this extension can access all your data" thing.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 12:12 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Not aware of any platform specific issues.

It could be that I set the @include to www.improb…

If you add the non www version, that might fix things.

If that doesn't work, check tools→web developer→error console
for any script realted errors (on FF, not sure what chrome's
equivalent is).


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 12:16 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

With regard to the “access all your data”... well, sort of, but pages
can't insert scripts into greasemonkey - GM scripts have to be locally
installed by you. And GM scripts are sandboxed to the page(s) they're
run in, so if anything they're safer than regular javascript.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 02:12 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Yes, the @include is www.improb... but that's what I'm using, so I don't think that can be the problem. And I'm not seeing any related messages in the error console.

The @namespace is on pepperfish.net -- could there be a permissions issue? (Grasping at straws, here!)


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 02:39 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Namespaces are just to tell scripts apart. What skin/theme are you using for the island?
Could be there's some odd difference I haven't accounted for.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 02:45 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

I've updated the script to include some GM_log lines (these will only
work in FF, not chrome) so there should be some debug output in the
"messages" section of the error log.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 04:50 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

It was the different layout in different skins. Should be fixed now.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 10:13 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

I'll re-install it now, though I checked the old one in Default: Red, and there was no button.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 10:43 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

There wouldn't have been, turns out the layout of that page is
radically different in several different skins, including console,
classic, and a couple of others.

It works for me in all the skins now.

I've also (as of just now) pointed the script at the live form,
but haven't tested it yet because I threw all my gamedays at cc404
in an attempt to clear it.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 11:24 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Nope. Still can't see it. In Default or Console. What's it supposed to look like? Where is it supposed to be?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 26 2012 @ 11:42 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Nope. Still can't see it. In Default or Console. What's it supposed to look like? Where is it supposed to be?

Here's what you'll see when you have it working:


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 27 2012 @ 12:49 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

If you've definitely got the latest version, check for any script related errors.
The intermediate version (after the first update) wouldn't have worked in chrome
because I had added extra debugging function calls which chrome doesn't support.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 27 2012 @ 03:41 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Once it is working, it works a treat! Much easier than selecting the radio buttons manually, and not subject to human error. Fledermaus, do you want us to press both buttons every time?

Also... props to both of you, fled and budd. This is good information. At last we can see what's happening!

By outpost, since late last Saturday:


Average threat levels:


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 27 2012 @ 04:31 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Both buttons - Yeah, more data is always good - I kept them separate
just in case there was ever a problem submitting to one or the other.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: April 27 2012 @ 11:47 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Here -- I've made a tinyurl for Buddleia's spreadsheet which can be passed around to anyone who's interested in seeing the results:

http://tinyurl.com/88ykw9o

Edited to add: There's now a custom tinyurl, which is easier to remember:

http://tinyurl.com/IslandThreats


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 08 2012 @ 07:55 PM
By: Makiwa

Content:

Thanks to you guys who got this going. Fascinating stuff.

If only I could get the script to work, just won't play nice for me.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 08 2012 @ 10:16 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

None of my GM scripts are working. Except maybe the bar limiter. Haven't tried that one yet.

On another note, could you also harvest wall HP? Threat level is only half the story.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 08 2012 @ 10:59 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

None of my GM scripts are working. Except maybe the bar limiter. Haven't tried that one yet.

On another note, could you also harvest wall HP? Threat level is only half the story.


The wall HP are being recorded in die fledermaus's own spreadsheet.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 08 2012 @ 11:40 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

None of my GM scripts are working. Except maybe the bar limiter. Haven't tried that one yet.

Yeah, the only one that works for me is the Truancy Meter. I don't know nearly enough coding to fix them, even when folks give helpful hints.

I say all this because the Council Office script doesn't work for me, either. Does there have to be a Chrome-specific version?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 09 2012 @ 12:19 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

None of my GM scripts are working. Except maybe the bar limiter. Haven't tried that one yet.

Yeah, the only one that works for me is the Truancy Meter. I don't know nearly enough coding to fix them, even when folks give helpful hints.

I say all this because the Council Office script doesn't work for me, either. Does there have to be a Chrome-specific version?

Fledermaus will have to answer that. I'm using Firefox (Mac version), where the council office script works very well. I haven't tried any of the other scripts.

I like this one very much because it's doing something that couldn't be done in the Island's own code, namely, accumulating a history to let us see trends and possibly patterns. Right now it's showing that if we keep at it we can keep the monsters in check, but if too many of us slack off -- we'll have more outbreaks like that mass assault over May 26-28.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 09 2012 @ 12:58 AM
By: Trowa

Content:

Now this is a sight to behold!


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 09 2012 @ 01:47 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Logged.

Here's the average threat level, since April 21 when we started recording data:


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 10 2012 @ 08:03 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

That's a bit misleading, though, because as Ada says, most of those reports happened over that rather unpleasant two days, and a recurrence a day later. Other than that -- if you take a look at the data log itself, it's evident that AH has been dark or light green most of the time.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 10 2012 @ 06:56 PM
By: Omega

Content:

By the majority, I mean that AceHigh has been reported at danger level eight more than any other danger level.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 10 2012 @ 11:38 AM
By: Omega

Content:

Oh, just saying that clicking on the See previous responses button gives out a graph for each outpost with the number of individual reports. While this can be easily skewed through reporting twice by mistake, it can lead to some insight. For example, you can see that NewHome and Kittania almost never left danger levels one to three, while the majority of AceHigh's time is spent on the highest danger level, just short of being breached. The only outpost that got breached in any frequency was Cybercity 404.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 10 2012 @ 01:40 PM
By: Ada

Content:

Quote by: Omega

Oh, just saying that clicking on the See previous responses button gives out a graph for each outpost with the number of individual reports. While this can be easily skewed through reporting twice by mistake, it can lead to some insight. For example, you can see that NewHome and Kittania almost never left danger levels one to three, while the majority of AceHigh's time is spent on the highest danger level, just short of being breached. The only outpost that got breached in any frequency was Cybercity 404.



Certainly not the majority! AH has only spent a little more time at level 8 than Cyb. Most of that was over a period of two days - otherwise it's been mostly quiet, like, well, pretty much everywhere else.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 11 2012 @ 01:10 AM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

None of my GM scripts are working. Except maybe the bar limiter. Haven't tried that one yet.



Yeah, the only one that works for me is the Truancy Meter. I don't know nearly enough coding to fix them, even when folks give helpful hints.

I say all this because the Council Office script doesn't work for me, either. Does there have to be a Chrome-specific version?



There shouldn't need to be a separate chrome version.
Which skin are you using?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 12 2012 @ 11:13 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

Quote by: fledermaus

There shouldn't need to be a separate chrome version.
Which skin are you using?



Huh...thought I answered this before? Might've gotten taken out in the latest round of spam-squashing, or I just lost my connection. Smile

Anyway, I'm on the Default Gold skin, using www.improbableisland.com, and in Chrome 18.0.1025.168 m.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 13 2012 @ 04:21 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Works for me on default gold.

Check that chrome actually thinks the scripts are enabled
for the site, and check for any errors i the error console
(wherever chrome keeps that).


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 13 2012 @ 05:17 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Ok, okkslike chrome doesn't implement a small but vital corner of the regexp engine - rewritten the script with a slightly different approach:

http://users.pepperfish.net/vivek/ii/ii-council.user.js


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 13 2012 @ 05:38 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

Perfect! Seems to be working now. Big Grin Thank you!


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 13 2012 @ 05:47 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

It works! Now I feel like I'm contributing!


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 14 2012 @ 05:45 AM
By: Makiwa

Content:

Thank you code guru fledermaus - it's working for me too now! Excellent work.

I don't suppose I could persuade you to work your magic on the Quest Tracker? This has never worked for me and would be most useful. Currently I use sticky notes to keep track but, y'know, would be nice to have it on page.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 14 2012 @ 01:26 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

What skin are you using?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 14 2012 @ 01:44 PM
By: Omega

Content:

Default Skin never worked for me. I haven't tested it on other skins.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 14 2012 @ 02:49 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Try http://users.pepperfish.net/vivek/ii/qtracker.user.js

As written, it almost certainly won't work properly on anything
other than the default skin, but I've applied some duct tape
to work around the bits not supported by chrome.

[ Annoyingly, there isn't even that much work required
for chrome to ship with a 100% compatible implementation,
they just... haven't put in the 30 minutes or so of work
to do it. Lazy so-and-sos ]


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 14 2012 @ 08:32 PM
By: Makiwa

Content:

Dear fledermaus,

In these part we would say you're a *star* performer!

Chrome with the default gold is now displaying the Quest Tracker. Unfortunately it only display thusly;

Quest
Blinding Hubcap of Halitosis
Location null
Step null
Status Complete

..and not the current quest.

Whatever you did evidently poked things in the right direction.

Thank you muchly for your efforts.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 14 2012 @ 08:43 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

Maki: It'll fix itself once you turn in your quest. Mine did! I think all it does is register what information is available. When I started mine, all values were Null, then when I found and defeated my quest monster, it updated the name and status. Then, when I turned it in, all values were updated with the next part of the quest.

The New Day Tracker is the same, which fledermaus is also tweaking. Null values at least mean it'll update once it finds the info they need, which may only be available on one page (i.e. Dan at the PSK, or the New Day screen).


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 15 2012 @ 03:54 AM
By: Makiwa

Content:

Aha! In the case I shall be as patient as one has to be when questing for Dan Smile


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 15 2012 @ 11:06 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

Try http://users.pepperfish.net/vivek/ii/ii-daily-status.user.js
for an updated daily status tracker. I'm a robot so most of those
stats don't exist for me, but let me know how it does or doesn't
work (and if it doesn't, which browser/version/skin).


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 16 2012 @ 02:18 AM
By: Trowa

Content:

Hmm... The New Day Tracker (rather, your "Daily Stats" tracker) doesn't seem to play well with the Quest Tracker.



It also doesn't seem to know what my hunger level is, which I find to be rather important...but I'm a Joker, so that stat is never blatantly given to me, the player, until I eat something. So, I'm not sure how the previous version got that information.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 16 2012 @ 10:00 AM
By: fledermaus

Content:

The quest tracker injects its info into the page in a somewhat
dodgy way - instead of walking the DOM and creating table
cells in the right place, it looks at the raw HTML and attempts
to change it. It needs a bit of work to make it play well
with others.

As to the other stats, as far as I can see it only harvests
info on the newday page, so you may well be seeing stale info
from it (eg from the last time you were a joker).

I'll have to do a run as a non-robot to pick up the info I need.

And fix the quest tracker.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 16 2012 @ 01:34 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

Ahh.... Okay! So the New Day Tracker is really only good for non-Joker and non-robot characters. It's probably useful for WCG folks, though? (Of which I'm not because reasons....) I suppose that's alright. I was hoping the tracker was extracting information from some hidden source so I could see what my hunger levels were for picking the days to maximize my stamina at Mutated Munchies. Laughing Out Loud

(I was just realizing we should probably make a new thread for all these non-council-office-related GM scripts...)

So, back on topic: Are we starting to see some daily patterns yet? I try to get on in the mornings now to log the threat levels. It feels like we're back in the pattern of early-morning threat levels rising while there's fewer people online.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 16 2012 @ 05:29 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

I've updated my daily status script to track hunger too.
It harvests the 'still hungry/room for more' etc message
after you eat at a restaurant, cook up a kill, or eat a
rat pack (or chug an energy drink).

http://users.pepperfish.net/vivek/ii/ii-daily-status.user.js

Let me know how it works.

As to levels... the monster increase rate is randomised
per outpost, and also tied to the number of people who have
been logged on (anywhere on the island) in the last "while".

So if there were a lot of people on a while ago, and now
nobody's around, any outpost with a high spawn rate is going
to head into trouble.

I think we can see that in the patterns, although the random
nature of the spawn rate might cloud the issue.

Kitt and NH never seem to be in any kind of danger. I'm not sure
anyone even needs to fight there to keep them safe.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 25 2012 @ 02:41 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: fledermaus

We could make a character whose sole purpose would be to sit in newhome council and report every 15 minutes or something, and leave it running automated, and then scrub the manual submissions entirely.


We could -- but it would be wrong. Characters who exist only to run a script are against the whole spirit of the game.

Besides, it would kind of kill the fun of the project. Half the enjoyment of checking the sheet is seeing that, hey, someone else has just posted a report! Probably with a sense of achievement, because their outpost has been pushed down one or three levels.

(I do throw in a report if I see that there's been a big interval since the last one.)


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 25 2012 @ 12:23 AM
By: fledermaus

Content:

I report, but I'm quite often in an outpost with no council,
so I don't get to report those.

We could make a character whose sole purpose would be to sit in
newhome council and report every 15 minutes or something, and
leave it running automated, and then scrub the manual submissions
entirely.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 24 2012 @ 03:43 PM
By: Trowa

Content:

*bump*

So, who else is reporting the outpost alerts? Sometimes I feel like the only one when I peek into the spreadhseet. I can pinpoint all the ones I've done in a day, and (at least this week) it seems like I only catch one or two others who've poked the buttons until later in the evenings.

Of course, we're also in Finals / Graduation season, so I imagine the higher alerts this week are due to that, too.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 27 2012 @ 03:49 PM
By: Awesome+Fred

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: fledermaus

We could make a character whose sole purpose would be to sit in newhome council and report every 15 minutes or something, and leave it running automated, and then scrub the manual submissions entirely.


We could -- but it would be wrong. Characters who exist only to run a script are against the whole spirit of the game.

Besides, it would kind of kill the fun of the project. Half the enjoyment of checking the sheet is seeing that, hey, someone else has just posted a report! Probably with a sense of achievement, because their outpost has been pushed down one or three levels.

(I do throw in a report if I see that there's been a big interval since the last one.)



I disagree with your assessment. We're making a character to run a script in order to collect data for the developer's sake. To find out, "Hey, the previous changes implemented have fixed a problem with the game." The fact that we players are taking the initiative instead of the single, time-constrained developer should not stop us from doing the job thoroughly and comprehensively simply because it uses a script. It doesn't have anything to do with exploiting nor providing an unfair advantage to anyone.

I also don't understand how "the fun is ruined" when it comes to handing in the TPS reports. Perhaps there's a sense of community there, and that's fine, but I don't find that enough of an excuse against leaving a fire-and-forget bot to record data, which we can then check weekly.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: May 27 2012 @ 05:59 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: fledermaus

We could make a character whose sole purpose would be to sit in newhome council and report every 15 minutes or something, and leave it running automated, and then scrub the manual submissions entirely.


We could -- but it would be wrong. Characters who exist only to run a script are against the whole spirit of the game.

Besides, it would kind of kill the fun of the project. Half the enjoyment of checking the sheet is seeing that, hey, someone else has just posted a report! Probably with a sense of achievement, because their outpost has been pushed down one or three levels.

(I do throw in a report if I see that there's been a big interval since the last one.)



I disagree with your assessment. We're making a character to run a script in order to collect data for the developer's sake. To find out, "Hey, the previous changes implemented have fixed a problem with the game." The fact that we players are taking the initiative instead of the single, time-constrained developer should not stop us from doing the job thoroughly and comprehensively simply because it uses a script. It doesn't have anything to do with exploiting nor providing an unfair advantage to anyone.

I also don't understand how "the fun is ruined" when it comes to handing in the TPS reports. Perhaps there's a sense of community there, and that's fine, but I don't find that enough of an excuse against leaving a fire-and-forget bot to record data, which we can then check weekly.

I think you are overestimating the usefulness to CMJ of abstract raw data, and underestimating the feedback effect of dynamic, interactive data-gathering that involves players.

Onslaught is designed so that player activity is a crucial part of the balance. This is good. It's what makes it interesting. The goal is not to smooth out the average threat level to compensate exactly for changes in player activity. If that were possible, and it succeeded, it would negate the whole point of the module. Rather, the goal is to have outpost threats that are real, but -- with effort -- beatable.

If you look at the Average Threat Level tab of Buddleia's spreadsheet, you can see that right now, Onslaught is working pretty well. The average threat across all outposts is 3.4, and there are outbreaks, but no outpost stays breached for long, and green is the normal state of affairs, with yellow and orange being exceptions. There's a daily cycle, and a perceptible Friday Effect.

But that's with players actively responsible for contributing data. Remove that factor, hand the data collection over to a bot, and I predict we would see more of a Let George Do It feeling creeping in. The result would be more weekends like the one we had a month ago, when we were first setting this up, with most outposts flaring bright orange and red, only KT and NH remaining green.

There are times when "more automation" is the wrong answer.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: June 10 2012 @ 08:17 AM
By: Iriana

Content:

I've started jungling more after being away from the Island for a while, but recently it seems like a lot of outposts are on the verge of collapse a lot of the time. Is it just me? I found this thread because I was looking up what the threat levels in the Council Office mean. Right now there are four outposts at Interesting Times and two at Assistance Required, with CC and NP (Interesting Times) both with 0 wall points. ...Nope, actually, in the minute it took me to type that, New Pittsburgh went down. I just got boated in the breach.

My issue with Onslaught is not that it's annoying to have banks and pubs closed (it is), or that it's unfun (it sort of is and sort of isn't--I can't decide), but that it feels unbeatable to me. I've done 21 DKs. If I'm alone in a breach or in Interesting Times, I can jungle for an hour and... still not make a dent, apparently. I've seen 100-DK players open up the bank all by themselves, but I can't do that. Either I fight fruitlessly, or I fight to be Failed.

I feel like many people just avoid besieged cities, partly because it's inconvenient and partly because they don't feel like they can do anything or they're likely to die. Could making breaches/Onslaught easier to fight in, and easier to affect for individual players, help make people more willing to participate?

I bought a Cat Launcher and headed up to New Pitts, but now I'm stuck on the Failboat with 131 rounds left and 30 minutes to NewDay. What if you couldn't get Failboated in a breach? Stands to reason if that you can't wade through the hordes of monsters to get into the outpost, the Retraining Personnel can't wade through the hordes of monsters to get to you. You'd lose the same EXP, but be spared the trouble of cage-fighting or spending favor. A better way to heal than having to duck outside and waste a medkit, maybe? (This is why I miss Trains--assuming you made it far enough to be able to duck out, you could go elsewhere and get bandaged up.) Assistance from NPCs? A well-timed grenade lobbed into your desperate fight from the sidelines?

And as for easier to affect, I know that realistically one or a handful of people couldn't save a whole outpost, but... if I spend time fighting, it should make some sort of tangible difference. At least a way to judge your progress. Or, if not making it less inconvenient, make it more inconvenient--I don't know, but I sort of liked the idea of shutting down all the banks if one closes. Or otherwise doing something that would annoy anyone in NewHome and Kittania--the perpetually safe cities--into helping out.

I don't know if someone's said this all before or I'm just not understanding the problem or if these are terrible suggestions or what, but it's 1:08 in the morning and now I'm trying to bring down the breach at CC404. (And since AH and PV are both at Interesting Times, I can't bank my req or get a meal. Excellent.) I'm sorry, I really don't mean to sound like I'm just complaining. Just too tired to come up with solutions.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: June 10 2012 @ 10:24 AM
By: fledermaus

Content:

One of the problems is the bands are 500 monsters wide - which
means you get no real indicator of your progress (unless you're
a 100 DK monster killing machine with a radioactive double
barreled dual-hopper spider-kitty launcher).

As to healing, you can duck into the jungle, but you have to
come back out thorugh the outpost. Or be a robot... But since
you can't make cash in a breach, that may be moot.

As to unbeatable - it really does feel that way when you're
at a low DK, and perhaps it should - but I agree there should
be some tangible feedback. An estimation of the monster
level that actually shows up the effects an individual has had.

Maybe there's a network executive/production assistant/whatever
outside the outpost who can be bribed to give you some breach
stats - monsters in the outpost at the start of the newday,
number of monsters in there now, number killed by the top 10
players in the breach so far this gameday, _something_
so it actually feels like you've made a difference.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: June 10 2012 @ 12:28 PM
By: Ada

Content:

Iriana - do you usually play only on the weekend? Threat levels are usually higher then. More often than not I log in to find everything quiet and boring, so my experience is entirely contrary to yours. I also think you've been fighting particularly bad breaches / Interesting Times. Sometimes, I fight and fight for ages and nothing happens. Sometimes (more often?) I chuck myself into a breach only to find that it's gone before my plasma gun runs out of juice.

If you didn't get failed in a breach you'd just be handing players DKs. I mean, not that I'd complain exactly, but...

Of course, many people avoid breached cities. But - shouldn't they? Not everyone in the game is there to play the game (and not all of the players there to play the game are always geared for breaches). By and large the players who spend the most time on it are just rping - forcing those players out of NH and Kitt is just going to make them upset.


fledermaus - definitely agree that bands should be smaller than 500 wide. Not only is it no indicator of your progress, but you likewise have no idea if when you show up at 1000-1500 you only have 11 monsters to fight through.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: June 10 2012 @ 05:17 PM
By: Iriana

Content:

Oh. That would have something to do with it, wouldn't it. I play most often on the weekends or late at night when other people are asleep, and looking at Buddleia's and Sessine's chart, last night was particularly bad--so you're probably right.

Well, if you got knocked out, there'd have to be consequences--but perhaps just the loss of the EXP, not the massive pain of having to claw your way off the Failboat, go back to the outpost, and risk being Failed again that same day. Maybe you could get a choice--go to the Failboat and take the normal EXP loss, or avoid the Failboat and get more EXP knocked off than usual. The more I say this, the more absurd it sounds.

And like you said, would that be so bad? It would convince lower-DK players that there's some... benefit... to fighting...
I just realized that it would only be higher-numbers-of-DKs (I need a word for that) players who would take advantage of that. So maybe never mind.

That's true. It's not--precisely fair to force them to play an aspect of the game they don't like or move to an area they don't like. Is there a way that they could fight a few battles in NH or KT and have that contribute to protecting Ace or CC? That also sounds absurd. I'm not sure. I think it goes back to the idea that the Island is a war zone, canonically speaking. Even if people are just there to RP, there is also a game element here, and it could be said that if they just wanted to write without paying attention to the game, they could just... get a pen and pass around a notebook. So part of the question is whether that's a statement that we agree with.

Also, does the Council Offices ticker show if an outpost is breached, or does it just stay at Interesting Times?


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: June 10 2012 @ 05:29 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Iriana
I just realized that it would only be higher-numbers-of-DKs (I need a word for that) players
"high-DK"?

It's not--precisely fair to force them to play an aspect of the game they don't like or move to an area they don't like. Is there a way that they could fight a few battles in NH or KT and have that contribute to protecting Ace or CC?
What if we had a box that was filled with breach, and every time you fought there, it'd take monsters out elsewhere?

That also sounds absurd.
Hey!

Even if people are just there to RP, there is also a game element here, and it could be said that if they just wanted to write without paying attention to the game, they could just... get a pen and pass around a notebook.
The Island is a great big pen and notebook, which anyone with a computer and internet can access, and which has delightful stationary and an awesome prompt at the top.

Also, does the Council Offices ticker show if an outpost is breached, or does it just stay at Interesting Times?
It shows the threat level and wall level, so you can generally figure it out.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: June 10 2012 @ 11:43 PM
By: fledermaus

Content:

There is something people in NH and Kitts can do...
sort of. Not log on. But that's the opposite of what
we want to encourage.

Basically - the monster spawn rate is linked to the number
of players logged on everywhere, instead of to the players
at that outpost. (Or was, anyway - we know CMJ probably
tweaked the monster spawn numbers, we don't know if that
aspect of the onslaught module was changed).

So right now, the more people log on in Kitts and NH
(for example), the worse the monster threat gets for
everyone.

Having said all that - I think the general breachiness
itself is under control now - that part of the problem
(or at least that symptom) has been addressed. What's
left is the fact that low-DK players (or anyone, really,
when the spawn rate is high and you're trying to keep a
lid on the monster swarms all on your lonesome) don't get
any feedback on their contribution - if you could see that
you'd cranked the monster level down 10%, 1%, or even 0.1%,
you could tell you'd made a difference - it would feel like
you were plugged in to the island, like you were contributing.

And I think (in many situations, but especially for low-DK
players) that part of the feedback loop is currently missing.


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: July 12 2012 @ 06:13 PM
By: Liquii

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Logged.

Here's the average threat level, since April 21 when we started recording data:



i love how tinypic reuses image urls, makes so many posts surreal


Re: Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard

Posted on: July 12 2012 @ 07:04 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Liquii

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Logged.

Here's the average threat level, since April 21 when we started recording data:



i love how tinypic reuses image urls, makes so many posts surreal


*bland* ...what? Is there something unusual here?

But since you bring the subject up, here's an updated version of that, to July 12:


The Improbable Island Enquirer - Forum
http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=27046