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K.K. Victoria
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 12:09 PM UTC  
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Then mate, you may want to try Robot again. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

(I sure as Hell was.)


"You saved Pineapple!"
 
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NotAgain
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 02:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Bakemaster

I don't take materials that are on existing plots; that being said, I do think the above is an abusive use of an alt that crosses an important line to give your main a game advantage. Yes, most of us agree that it's poor form to grab materials that are sitting on someone else's plot. But until such time as Dan decides to change the way things work re: dropping and picking up materials, it's your responsibility to deal with the risk of your materials being stolen in a way OTHER than circumventing a game mechanic via multiple accounts. There are many, many such alternative courses of action. Resorting immediately to "oh, I'll just use my alt" is not only lazy—I'd say it's far more disrespectful of the player community (and possibly of Dan, though he may not feel this crosses a line—I can't speak for him there) than taking materials someone left at their plot.

And that is how I feel about that; take it as you will.


I, for one, don't see how it's "cheating." Considering that my partner and I were working together doing exactly the same thing. We only resorted to the Alt because there's a 16 hour TZ difference and co-ordinating our chars started affecting real life.

We also could've accomplished it by harvesting materials & then installing them ourselves in the same day.

But we didn't want to roleplay like that.

The Alt didn't do any harvesting, toting or building. We just used it as storage so we could RP the way we wanted to. Although it did play a significant part in the accompanying RP... which is it's main purpose in the first place!

If you call that cheating, I'd hate to have you referee any of our sporting events. The game'd never get off the ground... Big Grin

(PS... and people still stole significant amounts of materials. My partner (or the Alt) would drop a few materials for my char - the builder - to pick up and some a/hole hovering on the spot would collect them ASAP. Not once or twice, but several times. That to me is not only cheating, but the lowest possible form of it. Ptui! I spit on them.)


 
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Anonymous: Awesome Fred
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 05:52 PM UTC  



Quote by: K.K.+Victoria

Then mate, you may want to try Robot again. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

(I sure as Hell was.)



Oh no. Please. Playing a robot was a hell for me, all those overheats. It's not worth it even with my neurotic need to be stamina efficient... <.<

Don't make me try them again! D:


 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 05:54 PM UTC  
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Quote by: NotAgain

I, for one, don't see how it's "cheating." Considering that my partner and I were working together doing exactly the same thing. We only resorted to the Alt because there's a 16 hour TZ difference and co-ordinating our chars started affecting real life.

We also could've accomplished it by harvesting materials & then installing them ourselves in the same day.

But we didn't want to roleplay like that.

The Alt didn't do any harvesting, toting or building. We just used it as storage so we could RP the way we wanted to. Although it did play a significant part in the accompanying RP... which is it's main purpose in the first place!

If you call that cheating, I'd hate to have you referee any of our sporting events. The game'd never get off the ground... Big Grin

(PS... and people still stole significant amounts of materials. My partner (or the Alt) would drop a few materials for my char - the builder - to pick up and some a/hole hovering on the spot would collect them ASAP. Not once or twice, but several times. That to me is not only cheating, but the lowest possible form of it. Ptui! I spit on them.)

CMJ calls it cheating. So it is cheating.

Theft is part of the design. Yes, there's an ever-present risk of losing materials. This encourages the development of strategies to foil thieves, and makes the game more challenging for those who just want to build or help others build. If CMJ doesn't want alts to be used in those strategies, then we shouldn't use them.

Right now, though, it's certainly true that theft is too easy. There's no risk at all of getting caught. People who choose to steal ought to be having to balance the value of what they could get against some bad consequence that might happen.

Once the Titans feature is released, I think that will change. The game itself can't distinguish between intended transfer and theft -- but players sure can. For players to be able to fight a Titan together, they will have to be able to see who else is on a World Map square with them. That means that, at the very least, thieves will have to stop stealing from an active building project with a worker on-site. Or if they are dumb enough to try it, they'll be risking being identified and branded a thief.

Edit: One enhancement that would be very good, once Dan gets the time, would be the ability to leave a short note with a pile of wood or stone. I can foresee all sorts of interesting uses for that, but one could be designating which structure the pile is intended for. That way, someone who came along with spare stamina and the right toolkit -- who happened to be feeling generous -- would feel free to contribute some labor. At the very least, the thieves would then know who it was they were stealing from. Or, people could write: "Free for all takers," and then anyone could pick it up without having to feel like a thief.


 
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Bakemaster
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 06:44 PM UTC  
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Quote by: NotAgain

I, for one, don't see how it's "cheating." Considering that my partner and I were working together doing exactly the same thing.


Okay, then I guess I'll make an alt and use its turns to generate extra cigarettes. I'll admit it to the clan once it has accumulated 100 ciggies and donate them toward my clan buff. I don't see how it's "cheating" considering that me and my sister were working together doing exactly the same thing.

The above is admittedly a more clear-cut situation, but apart from a difference of degree, the situations are analogous. You want to do with one player something that can otherwise only be done with two players. Unfortunately, in this game, you don't have the freedom to do anything you want simply because you want to RP a certain way. In a more free-form environment, you could. But just as this game is not a sporting event, it is not a completely free-form RP environment.


Unofficial Improbable Island out-of-character chat is at irc.foonetic.net, channel #iisland - come on by!
 
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tehdave
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 06:52 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

{snip}For players to be able to fight a Titan together, they will have to be able to see who else is on a World Map square with them.{/snip}


{derailthread}
I heartily approve of this. Actually, I'd love to be able to have a GPS or something where you can allow specific people (Read: spouses, clannies, specific friends, etc.) to see where you are on the world map. And maybe have the "Online Clan Members" option available from places other than just the Clan Halls. Myself and a few clannies have been discussing this recently, since there's no real RP in the GERM Clan halls space, everything takes place at Dunbernarding now, and there's no way to keep track from there of who's around...
Again, could have it as a completely opt-in system, so you can prevent people from just spying on you unless you let them. (maybe only let people see where you are if you also have them on your list?)
{/derailthread}

Back on topic, yeah I agree using alts to guard supplies is tempting, but it really is cheating. I like Sessine's idea of having a way of knowing who took the supplies from your spot, but again, that's part of the risk of having a dwelling in a semi-populated area. I don't believe I've ever run into the issue, since my own dwelling is out away from everything else, sort of remote. Even though there's other dwellings around, they're mostly people's houses who are honest, or even helpful themselves (Dropping logs to neighbors, helping with decorations, etc). If you know whose dwellings are around, you can organize with them for helping each other, but as far as dishonesty, well....that's just part of the system as-is. Which sucks, I agree.

{/rant}


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 08:19 PM UTC  
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Quote by: tehdave[snip] I like Sessine's idea of having a way of knowing who took the supplies from your spot, but again, that's part of the risk of having a dwelling in a semi-populated area. I don't believe I've ever run into the issue, since my own dwelling is out away from everything else, sort of remote. Even though there's other dwellings around, they're mostly people's houses who are honest, or even helpful themselves (Dropping logs to neighbors, helping with decorations, etc). If you know whose dwellings are around, you can organize with them for helping each other, but as far as dishonesty, well....that's just part of the system as-is. Which sucks, I agree.[/p]
You'd only know if you happened to be there, watching, at the time they were taken. And that's reasonable. If you're right there and actively using them, you ought to be able to see if someone comes along and grabs them from under your nose.

If you leave building supplies unattended, on the other hand, and want to come back and use them later, that's a risk. You're depending on others who stumble across them not to pick them up.

Yes, the risk is lower in remote areas far off the beaten path. Security by obscurity is better than no security. But if you haven't lost anything at all by now, you've just been lucky. Some people don't bother with crate-finders; they do sweeps.


 
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g_rock
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 08:24 PM UTC  
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Personally, I like to lie to myself and tell myself that it's roving bands of Thieving Midget Bastards raiding the lumber stacks at Dunbernarding. Actually, it would make a lot of sense, seeing as it's a right BASTARD thing to do...


 
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Bernard
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 08:41 PM UTC  
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Quote by: g_rock

Personally, I like to lie to myself and tell myself that it's roving bands of Thieving Midget Bastards raiding the lumber stacks at Dunbernarding. Actually, it would make a lot of sense, seeing as it's a right BASTARD thing to do...



I wouldn't have said Dunbernarding was a right BASTARD thing to do.




Oh, you mean theft.


 
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g_rock
 Monday, March 01 2010 @ 10:04 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Bernard

Quote by: g_rock

Personally, I like to lie to myself and tell myself that it's roving bands of Thieving Midget Bastards raiding the lumber stacks at Dunbernarding. Actually, it would make a lot of sense, seeing as it's a right BASTARD thing to do...



I wouldn't have said Dunbernarding was a right BASTARD thing to do.




Oh, you mean theft.



Uncle, you've been asked politely to stay out of the silver polish. We all know how you enjoy the taste, but it gets expensive to replace.


 
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ImNewHere
 Tuesday, March 02 2010 @ 04:57 AM UTC  
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Since I don't have an alt, clan, or RP buddies I simply have to do it the old fashioned way. Lug the stuff all over the map! Well, stones anyways since the jungle is only one square north of my floating castle. Still, this whole stealing bit is quite annoying and I would LOVE to see storage that we can shove enough logs or stone in to complete what we are working on. I plan on loads of sleep space for all the rookies (and anyone else who needs it) at NH to use as an extra edge at no extra charge, and that's going to take a load of work for me to get it there.


 
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Raiment
 Tuesday, March 02 2010 @ 05:30 AM UTC  
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I'd be all over some kind of Item storage in dwellings. Ideally, it would be a safe of some kind that could house all sorts of building materials (and maybe other items!), lockable, and increasable in size. Wait, that sounds a lot like the current Dwelling system's rooms!

I don't want to go all radical on an already-great idea. I love dwellings, they're all I spend my game time on now. But aside from chatspaces and flavor, I want some functionality increase for all my hard labor. I know some say that the housing manager's menu is already a bit cluttered, but I'd like to provide the idea to add Side Projects!

Side Project Idea 1: Item storage.
This means nominating a room for item storage, like a walk-in vault. It can be locked or left open to the public as usual. People can't sleep there any more. Floor spaces are instead used to hold items of any size, limit one per space. If left open, this means anyone can take the items you left as well as leave their own. Allows for inter-player sharing, trading, borrowing, and potential stealing, but it also allows people to keep some handy items for the next DK. I really endorse this idea.

Side Project Idea 2: Actual Beds!
I'm tired of seeing that I'm sleeping on the floor when the description tells me I'm in a bedroom. I'd like to offer the idea of building/buying/questing for a bed. They're heavy as hell and really large, so large that they take up two floor spaces and can only fit one person once installed, BUT! They offer twice the morning stamina gain over sleeping on the floor. Spend enough time on increasing the size of your dwelling's rooms and you can fit a lot of happier travelers.

Side Project Idea 3: Vending Machines?
Maybe I shouldn't bring this up, as I wasn't here for S1 when these were implemented and were deemed game-imbalancing. I was thinking that a vending machine would also be a construct-able item (that requires some unique parts that could limit their propagation) that, when installed in a dwelling, would take up one floor space and hold one item. the item's price would be adjustable by the owner within certain limits.

Anyhow: as far as feedback goes, I'm loving Dwellings. I see a lot of potential in them, and I wish to see them grow to become even greater hubs of player actions and creativity.


 
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Ada
 Tuesday, March 02 2010 @ 02:12 PM UTC  
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Item storage: no, please no. Desperately imbalancing. I really shouldn't have to elaborate!


 
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tehdave
 Tuesday, March 02 2010 @ 04:37 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada

Item storage: no, please no. Desperately imbalancing. I really shouldn't have to elaborate!



I agree wholeheartedly...with item storage, I could drop off a bunch of one-shots in there and have someone else pick them all up, DK, then come back and pick them up and sell them all: starting a DK with a good 40k req without taking the questing into account. (And that's only one example of game-breaking this would incur, and I think if I've read properly, had occured in S1)

Maybe a storage room for LOGS and STONE only? cost less than a regular room, but doesn't have a chatspace, and holds up to {Current log/stone deficit for current construction project} or just enough to build one extension. With this, you could have people drop the stone/logs into it, and then others could use them directly from there, instead of having to grab them from the map? I'd endorse this idea. Even if it was left so you could take materials from it (even if you aren't the dwelling owner) to keep it from being just a place to hide the logs/stone...at least it would be clear whose building materials you're stealing...


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Raiment
 Tuesday, March 02 2010 @ 07:39 PM UTC  
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Okay, so true item storage is a bit of a touchy subject. Good to know.

I'd like to point out that not many people would be opposed to the Bed idea, though.

What you'd like to see, then, is a Storage Shed kind of feature.

Once your place has been upgraded from an Empty Plot (meaning there's an interior area) I feel it should have some construction material storage, like a work shed or a small garage.
That means that you can opt to drop your Stones and Logs in the main entryway, perhaps up to a reasonable limit. These supplies will then count as belonging to that dwelling. No one can take them out again, they can only be used for that Dwelling's construction projects. Furthermore, you won't have to pick them up in order to add them to the Dwelling.

That's what I'd like to see, at least. Personally, I'm fine with lugging around my goods and protecting them like a mother hen, but i know many people are having difficulty with theft. Maybe I'm not in such a high-crime area?

Barring all this supply nonsense, I'd really think it'd be cool to see Beds implemented.


 
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calliaphone
 Wednesday, March 03 2010 @ 10:42 AM UTC  
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Quote by: tehdave

{derailthread}
...I'd love to be able to have a GPS or something where you can allow specific people (Read: spouses, clannies, specific friends, etc.) to see where you are on the world map. And maybe have the "Online Clan Members" option available from places other than just the Clan Halls. Myself and a few clannies have been discussing this recently, since there's no real RP in the GERM Clan halls space, everything takes place at Dunbernarding now, and there's no way to keep track from there of who's around...
Again, could have it as a completely opt-in system, so you can prevent people from just spying on you unless you let them. (maybe only let people see where you are if you also have them on your list?)
{/derailthread}


Yeah, I'd really love to be able to view the contestants list and the online clannies list from within dwellings. At present, if you want to know where folks are, you have to leave the house and head into town. Bit of a pain if you're RPing in a house and just want to check quickly who's about, without travelling.

Ditto, access to the preferences link. I sent Callia off to change her clothes, and wanted to update my biography. She had to leave the house and go to town to do it. Bloody little exhibitionist.

Also - any possibility of clarification on keys? I'm confused. Have been all my life. But ... getting back to my question. I'm not a home-owner myself (quite happy taking advantage of a certain benevolent Uncle until he gets paranoid that we're all after the inheritance and boots us out), which means I've not seen the management interface for houses, and am a bit clueless. When keys come along, am I right in thinking ... you lock a door, it stays locked until you (or some other keyholder) opens it? Or does the door open to admit you, and then lock behind you automatically (like my own front-door in fact, which of course means i can lock myself out, ohgodohgodohCMJdon'timplementthat"feature" PLEASE).

Also...hoping this isn't another potential derail:
did someone mention kitchens with real food? I had been meaning to suggest this for clan-halls, but maybe it'd suit dwellings better. The ability to donate meat (and ideally other food items?) to a shared kitchen. And then to create a menu with custom names for the dishes - availability of meals depending on how much bounty is in the store.

Edits to say:
eep, i'm an idiot, i completely forgot my main point which was YAY FOR DWELLINGS! i had not followed all the discussion about them before implementation so they were a total and wonderful surprise. it's a bit tough doing all this building/decorating in RP while i'm having my RL kitchen re-done, but I'LL LIVE WITH IT, GLADLY. because... The Bingo Hall, guys, the Bingo Hall. An' it's just gonna get better'n'better'n'better...


 
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Bakemaster
 Wednesday, March 03 2010 @ 07:57 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Some people don't bother with crate-finders; they do sweeps.


*brzZEEep*
Efficiency is mandated.
All sectors will be surveyed.
while (TRUE)
{
for ($i=0; $i<2; $i++)
{
echo "HI HO\n";
}
work($us);
}
*clickZIPwhirrrrrr*


Unofficial Improbable Island out-of-character chat is at irc.foonetic.net, channel #iisland - come on by!
 
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Paul Lo
 Thursday, March 04 2010 @ 09:06 PM UTC  
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It'd be nice to have some sort of speaker or something like the comms tent to send a message everywhere in one dwelling, wouldn't it?

Because things that affect all an area happen, and something needs to emit it.

With Dunbernarding being a colossus, we're getting a little lost.


Yes, I have a dream, of electronic sheeps and linen bedsheets. But that's not the point. Or isn't it?
 
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tehdave
 Thursday, March 04 2010 @ 10:48 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Paul+Lo

It'd be nice to have some sort of speaker or something like the comms tent to send a message everywhere in one dwelling, wouldn't it?

Because things that affect all an area happen, and something needs to emit it.

With Dunbernarding being a colossus, we're getting a little lost.



A little lost? I wandered in there yesterday and just now found my way out! And I barely walked in there at all!

(Yes Dunbernarding is huge. And sprawling. And we need to be able to link rooms circularly so we can confuse more people.)


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Booya
 Sunday, March 07 2010 @ 06:00 PM UTC  
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Is theft really that much of a problem? So far I haven't had any trouble, my myself, cutting a few rocks at a time on CC404 and dropping them on the ground until I have enough to one-shot out. I think it works decently because as long as it only takes a few minutes, odds are a thief isn't going to stumble across it that quickly. Whereas if you leave your building materials out all night, you can probably assume they'll be gone in the morning.


 
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