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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 03:40 PM UTC (Read 6561 times)  
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I get the idea that the high-end equipment is supposed to be much better than the original kind of stuff, but the conditions that I fight with are drastically altered by the Force Generator. If I'm wearing the invisisuit, I am protected against blows somewhat so I can fight longer before heals. If I am wearing the Force Generator, I am one-shotting each and every single enemy I come up against until the battery wears out.

I don't think it's proper design to have the Force Generator as it is in its current implementation. What I do is finish Dan's quest without turning it in for each DK, and then after the DK, I immediately start with 25000 req, and just inch my way up until I have the 30000+ for the Force Generator. Then, I fly through fights, finish the next quest for Dan, and I'm free to do whatever for the rest of the DK. It's not a tedious routine, but I lose any sense of the Gear Progression that I had originally when I first had to buy canvas overalls and then chainmail suits and then biker vests and then invisisuits. It also removes any sense of Choice because it feels like the best for its price range.

I don't know how best to nerf it, just that it needs a nerf. Whether its req price or cig price goes up, or its 1100% defense bonus is reduced, or its battery life is shortened, or it provides a base defense reduction before it gives its +defense bonus, or what have you. It just doesn't seem good in its current state that I always make a beeline to the Force Generator because it's just that good.




It does suck that I have only one perspective though. I'm sure other people don't use Force Generator religiously the way I do?


 
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Ashtu
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 03:51 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

I don't think it's proper design to have the Force Generator as it is in its current implementation.

I believe this may be just one of life's little improbable mysteries.


Thank you.
 
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crashtestpilot
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 04:03 PM UTC  
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So to offer some feedback, I will say that back in the day, it was standard equipment once I had access to it.

My gut instinct is that I respectfully disagree that it needs nerfing, especially if you play a joker, which will take that 1100% bonus and twist it around your head. However, on other races, yeah, I do see your point.

Personally, I always enjoyed the FG, because it allowed a brother to get s**t done, after a long frickin' slog.

I haven't used it but once this Season, b/c my focus isn't so much on DKs, but rather clan-building and property development, and until v. recently, every single cig went to buff-building (and now they all go to toolkits).

But I think if you're exclusively focused on the fact it makes your life (and combat) easier, I guess my question is, why is that bad?
I mean, you struggled long and hard to get where you are w/respect to DKs/attributes/etc.
Shouldn't that have some kind of payoff? Hard work rewarded, and all that?

I do think you're right that its price/performance ratio vastly outstrips, say, that of the various SPS armo(u)rs.
I have never purchased the higher up SPS stuff, in part because expense in req & cigs was so massive.

It's as if the formula for weapon/armour/helmet/boot attributes isn't immune to sweet-spotting at the point where it intersects with II's req and cig economy.

The one disadvantage of the FG, as you say, is that it's charged, and then afterward, it's fundamentally useless. You seem to be saying that the duration of the charges is overly adequate (generous even), or that the defence multiple is too high.

Perhaps that's the entry point for looking for flaws inherent in the build equation for weapons, etc.
I know I've read about that equation in an earlier thread, sometime last year, but I don't have it to hand.

Perhaps we can take another look at that formula in this thread? When a weapon/armour gives you charm is that over-valued or under-valued?

Anyway, a lot of you know this arena far better than I, but I'm always so curious about game mechanics, I'm hopeful this thread will turn into a v. interesting discussion.

All best,

~CTP


 
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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 04:37 PM UTC  
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Quote by: crashtestpilot


My gut instinct is that I respectfully disagree that it needs nerfing, especially if you play a joker, which will take that 1100% bonus and twist it around your head. However, on other races, yeah, I do see your point.



Aye. I purposefully do not play a Joker that much because it doesn't embody a specific playstyle, and I actually only play it only when I want to grind up travel stats because some days, it's got a 90% stamina cost reduction and an 80% exp bonus. However, the times I did play a Joker, I found the 1100% bonus reduced usually to levels that were still completely sufficient for me to one-shot during every fight. Again, this might be a perspective problem of mine. I play Rank 4s and 5s (5s exclusively right now), and I've got like 40 or so DK points put into Defense.


Personally, I always enjoyed the FG, because it allowed a brother to get s**t done, after a long frickin' slog.

But I think if you're exclusively focused on the fact it makes your life (and combat) easier, I guess my question is, why is that bad?
I mean, you struggled long and hard to get where you are w/respect to DKs/attributes/etc.
Shouldn't that have some kind of payoff? Hard work rewarded, and all that?


Interesting gameplay decisions. Decision-making is an important part about the player's fun, and when a single choice becomes essentially a "no-brainer" choice, it removes a dynamic from the game, losing a layer of decision-making depth.

We should shy away from the idea of "hard work" in a game, but yes, achievement is another factor of player fun. I subjectively find that the struggle to get to the Force Generator is too minimal to merit the superamazingness of the Force Generator for me. Since, the struggle to the FG for me is to immediately start out with 25k req, get 5k req and spend like 2 cigs on it. Maybe the trouble is the Dan's quest reward doesn't scale by player level?


I do think you're right that its price/performance ratio vastly outstrips, say, that of the various SPS armo(u)rs.
I have never purchased the higher up SPS stuff, in part because expense in req & cigs was so massive.

It's as if the formula for weapon/armour/helmet/boot attributes isn't immune to sweet-spotting at the point where it intersects with II's req and cig economy.

The one disadvantage of the FG, as you say, is that it's charged, and then afterward, it's fundamentally useless. You seem to be saying that the duration of the charges is overly adequate (generous even), or that the defence multiple is too high.

~CTP[/p]


Precisely. 200 charges for me means 196 one-shot fights and 2 two-shots. If I'm playing a race that can actually hunt that many times without running out of stamina.


 
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Silcatra
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 05:08 PM UTC  
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Personally, I find Force Gens only worthwhile on Rank 7. Because when something ends up getting in a lucky hit on you and you're wearing a Force Gen, you're going right to the Failboat.

For up to and including Rank 5, I find the Invisisuit sufficient, and I'm currently running a 6 where I gave up my Force Gen due to being sick of getting hit so got a SA-SPS-2 instead. It's working out much better.

In short, it's a decision a player makes about risk/benefit. Is the risk of the monster getting in that lucky shot (which WILL happen at least once or twice per game day) worth the likelihood you won't have to even hit the F or 5 or T button?


 
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Bakemaster
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 06:54 PM UTC  
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One interesting quirk of the FG is that it'll get you one-shotted on occasion, even on R1. I've got just under 400 HP at the moment and been one-shotted wearing a FG twice during my current R1 DK - once by a Titan and once by a random Green Knight that jumped me while traveling.

I agree that the FG is very powerful and great value for your req. I wouldn't feel it inappropriate to tone down the duration, especially as it hardly seems worth the current increase in price to go to the Mk II version. I'd still buy the FG if it had only 100 rounds duration, like the Plasma Gun.

However, I think if you experimented a bit at Rank 7, you might find more value in the sealed power suits than you expect.


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tehdave
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 08:28 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Bakemaster

One interesting quirk of the FG is that it'll get you one-shotted on occasion, even on R1



That's the major downside. Having such a massive defense buff means that the one hit that does get in is much more likely to kill you. I noticed this myself with the force gen on many a DK, which leads me to usually run the SPS-2 armor when I want to wear armor. That and the slight stam buff the armor gives (5%)

I think maybe if the higher-end SPS armors were dropped a bit in price (from several hundred thousand req to under 100k) and maybe the charm taken off? Mostly, by the time you can wear an SA-LS-SPS-5 armor, you probably have maxed out your charm discount, at which point the bonus charm means absolutely nothing to you.


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 11:44 PM UTC  
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Quote by: tehdave

Quote by: Bakemaster

One interesting quirk of the FG is that it'll get you one-shotted on occasion, even on R1



That's the major downside. Having such a massive defense buff means that the one hit that does get in is much more likely to kill you. I noticed this myself with the force gen on many a DK, which leads me to usually run the SPS-2 armor when I want to wear armor. That and the slight stam buff the armor gives (5%)

I think maybe if the higher-end SPS armors were dropped a bit in price (from several hundred thousand req to under 100k) and maybe the charm taken off? Mostly, by the time you can wear an SA-LS-SPS-5 armor, you probably have maxed out your charm discount, at which point the bonus charm means absolutely nothing to you.



I use equipment-charm as a buffer for The Gauntlet. I don't think about max charm ever, since I always use charm on The Gauntlet so I don't waste a day without Emily. (I try to visit Emily every day if I'm near Improbable Central.)


 
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Ada
 Tuesday, September 21 2010 @ 11:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Quote by: tehdave

Quote by: Bakemaster

One interesting quirk of the FG is that it'll get you one-shotted on occasion, even on R1



That's the major downside. Having such a massive defense buff means that the one hit that does get in is much more likely to kill you. I noticed this myself with the force gen on many a DK, which leads me to usually run the SPS-2 armor when I want to wear armor. That and the slight stam buff the armor gives (5%)

I think maybe if the higher-end SPS armors were dropped a bit in price (from several hundred thousand req to under 100k) and maybe the charm taken off? Mostly, by the time you can wear an SA-LS-SPS-5 armor, you probably have maxed out your charm discount, at which point the bonus charm means absolutely nothing to you.



I use equipment-charm as a buffer for The Gauntlet. I don't think about max charm ever, since I always use charm on The Gauntlet so I don't waste a day without Emily. (I try to visit Emily every day if I'm near Improbable Central.)



Maybe you ought to think about max charm - you can buy the force generator with a single Dan quest if you've got it.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 12:09 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada


Maybe you ought to think about max charm - you can buy the force generator with a single Dan quest if you've got it.



This means even more to me that the Force Generator should have a nerf.

On that note, though, this conversation may never have existed if the Defense stat didn't act the way it does, as I think Bakemaster and CMJ were talking about. It's just silly how the Bonus defense increases the damage of ripostes and the enemy's hits while Base defense simply protects against damage (and maybe does minimal to add to riposte damage?).


 
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Ada
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 12:48 AM UTC  
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But at the same time, wearing the force generator makes you very vulnerable to one-shots. It does come with downsides. I recall many people swearing that it was nigh-unusable on a Bastard Rank, for instance. I personally do not use the force generator very often. I prefer to have cheap refills for my plasma gun. As with zombies, just because you have found something that fits your playstyle does not mean that it is overkill and needs to be nerfed.


 
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Zpatula
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 01:16 AM UTC  
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Yes, the force generator is useless at high ranks. You'll spend so much time on The Failboat that you'll think you're an anchor. I never personally use it (or the Mk 2 force generator) because I always run Rank 6 or higher as a Joker.

Oh, and if you aren't starting your new DK with better than 100,000 req, you haven't yet learned how to play the game. Wink


I ATE PINEAPPLE!
 
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Awesome Fred
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 01:16 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada

But at the same time, wearing the force generator makes you very vulnerable to one-shots. It does come with downsides. I recall many people swearing that it was nigh-unusable on a Bastard Rank, for instance. I personally do not use the force generator very often. I prefer to have cheap refills for my plasma gun. As with zombies, just because you have found something that fits your playstyle does not mean that it is overkill and needs to be nerfed.



I also heard it was nigh-unusuable on Bastard Rank, and I keep that in mind.

As for zombies, I made the point to justify Dying of Malnutrition rather than something requiring serious nerf-age.

As for not-meriting-nerfing, just because something has a select disadvantage doesn't mean that it's not overkill in other areas and therefore it can still merit a nerf if it's not encouraged gameplay. If something is imbalanced at lower ranks but properly balanced at higher ranks, that doesn't mean that it's not imbalanced.

What I'm seeing is a scenario where a player (myself), who is trying to play fairly optimally while still maintaining some elements of style (defensive combat, zombie-loving), is gravitating to getting the Force Generator immediately after every DK, because it allows me to play the game one-shotting each and every enemy that comes up at my rank (to play optimally). If the Force Generator were weaker, and the even stronger armors within a more affordable range, I could instead use the Force Generator as a natural stepping stone to higher gear if my rank merits it.

However, in my head is growing the counter-argument that Rank is a form of Progression, and so since the Force Generator makes it so easy for me at Rank 5, I should just go for Rank 7 and see if it's balanced there. After all, we don't consider its balance at Rank 1--of course, we'll one-shot everything there, but at our strength we shouldn't even be at Rank 1 anymore.

Then my head argues back that without the Force Generator, Rank 5 is kinda still a bitch for me. It's difficult for me until I get the Force Generator, where all of a sudden I breeze through everything. And now it comes back to me that that's one of the things I dislike concerning it that makes it feel overpowered again. For one of my DKs, I wanted to expand hat size, so I sold my Force Generator right before the Drive and instead wore an Invisisuit. I died about 5 times before I could finally beat the Drive, whereas on Rank 5s I always took down the Drive in 2-3 hits no problemo. All that due to the Force Generator.

Nothing's clearcut between overpowered and balanced. But with such a radical difference in difficulty between having the FG and not having it, I'm in the camp that it is somewhat overpowered.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 01:17 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Zpatula


Oh, and if you aren't starting your new DK with better than 100,000 req, you haven't yet learned how to play the game. Wink




...hmm... this one is going to keep me up tonight trying to figure it out. Eek!


 
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zamboni
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 03:36 AM UTC  
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I've actually found rk 5 DKs easy to do without fancy armour - I do rk 5s when I just want to do a quicky DK and usually equip with a rusty chainsaw and the sp2 armour that gives 25k stamina a day. The stats I've acquired from lots of DKs certainly help, but I did rk 5s with that equipment long long ago as well.

The big step up is from rk 5 to 6 to 7 to bastard - it's almost like the Richter scale (or the Star Trek warp scale) - increases in rank difficulty are actually geometric rather than arithmetic (a "5" earthquake is 1/10th the strength of a "6").

I used to go with a kitty launcher/mark 2 force generator combo (for rk 7/bastard), but on bad Joker defensive days I couldn't fight anything without getting 1 rounded. I've converted to the lightning suit - I spend a lot more req on healing as a result but almost never die unless I get lazy and don't heal between fights. I get lots of mutual kills as well, but fortunately players win on a tie!


 
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zamboni
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 03:37 AM UTC  
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Oh, and if you aren't starting your new DK with better than 100,000 req, you haven't yet learned how to play the game. Wink [/p]


I'm upset when I don't have 300k! Although with all the Titans, all you really need is enough req for a plasma gun to get the funds flowing.

Mr. Green


 
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Ada
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 01:29 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred


What I'm seeing is a scenario where a player (myself), who is trying to play fairly optimally while still maintaining some elements of style (defensive combat, zombie-loving), is gravitating to getting the Force Generator immediately after every DK, because it allows me to play the game one-shotting each and every enemy that comes up at my rank (to play optimally). If the Force Generator were weaker, and the even stronger armors within a more affordable range, I could instead use the Force Generator as a natural stepping stone to higher gear if my rank merits it.

However, in my head is growing the counter-argument that Rank is a form of Progression, and so since the Force Generator makes it so easy for me at Rank 5, I should just go for Rank 7 and see if it's balanced there. After all, we don't consider its balance at Rank 1--of course, we'll one-shot everything there, but at our strength we shouldn't even be at Rank 1 anymore.

Then my head argues back that without the Force Generator, Rank 5 is kinda still a bitch for me. It's difficult for me until I get the Force Generator, where all of a sudden I breeze through everything. And now it comes back to me that that's one of the things I dislike concerning it that makes it feel overpowered again. For one of my DKs, I wanted to expand hat size, so I sold my Force Generator right before the Drive and instead wore an Invisisuit. I died about 5 times before I could finally beat the Drive, whereas on Rank 5s I always took down the Drive in 2-3 hits no problemo. All that due to the Force Generator.

Nothing's clearcut between overpowered and balanced. But with such a radical difference in difficulty between having the FG and not having it, I'm in the camp that it is somewhat overpowered.



I hear you about the stronger armours within a more affordable range. I wouldn't cry too much (read: at all) if the charm and favour buffs were removed from expensive gear. I'm not convinced that it's at all worth paying for either, and they make a lot of gear pointlessly expensive rather than just expensive, in my opinion.

I'm surprised to hear that rank 5 is still a bitch for you without the force gen. I don't have that many more DKs than you and I usually just piddle about naked or near-naked. Did you spend most of your DK points on defense? It seems to me that this game is geared against a defensive playstyle, so perhaps that's counting against you. I use mine 3:2 on attack:defense or thereabouts, I usually don't wear armour, and I make it okay. But then, I don't try to play defensively. The force gen seems to fit your playstyle very well, so I'm not really clear on why you object to it. In your experience, it's the best defensive equipment there is. If you want to play defensively, why not go for the best equipment?


 
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Bakemaster
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 02:34 PM UTC  
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Personally, I consider R5 to be the baseline "normal" difficulty. Anything else is a cakewalk. But I do know that different people have different expectations.

For what it's worth, I don't have that much of a stat boost yet. I'm somewhere in the low 20s, DK-wise, and have felt this way about how the difficulties play out since I was still in single-digits...


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Wongo the Sane
 Wednesday, September 22 2010 @ 05:14 PM UTC  
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I'll admit to using the FG most of the time, but certainly not exclusively.

If I'm wanting to do a lot of building (or travelling), I'll get myself an SA-SPS-2 for the stamina buff.
If I'm doing a rank 7 (which is most of the time these days), I'll often choose the Lightning Suit - especially if I want to do it quickly. These are made of pure, solidified win. The main reason I /don't/ use them is to slow myself down enough to complete a quest arc.
The SPH Bunny Suit also gets an honourable mention as the cheapest way of re-loading a devastator/daebris thrower/cat launcher. Because the best armour is to kill the monster before it can even try to hit you. These weapons make 'nudity' a viable armour choice even if you're not a kitty.

Anyway, the point was that it's not an entirely clear cut choice. Yes, some armours will always be 'better', but the choice isn't 'Force Generator or Something Worse'.


 
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crashtestpilot
 Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 03:00 AM UTC  
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Hey, so, this is a v. interesting thread, in part (to me at least) b/c of the frank discussions about playstyle.
So, habitually, each DK, I split between ATT & DEF. So those are growing at a 1-1 ratio. IE, they're more or less always within a point of one another.

Is this a retarded strategy?

B/c I've been doing the same thing for so long, I never bothered to consider an alternate route.

Oh, and I get my additional HPs from DKs and Gauntlet visits, while using I-bombs and Kissing Booth and suchlike to keep charm up, so I get convenient discounts.

For the record: I obviously have no idea how to play the game "properly" b/c I'm always out of money for the first five levels, and I just walk up the gear ladder. The notion of starting with 300K is, to me, like, wow. I mean, starting as a Kmorph with no armor expense is a novelty. Typically, I stay human, gather grenades, use those as a cash thing, and hunt for crates, and try to keep my quest-beasties up to date.

In S1, I just b/came a scraphound, built my crap armor/weapons, until such time as I could afford to replace them.

So.

I am now firmly convinced I am missing out on a whole world of magic, and that I've retreated from the game itself into clan stuff and building stuff because, perhaps, I have no freaking idea how to play it. I just have "get by" strategies.

Therefore, should you have any hints for me other than to insert (a) sock(s) into my mouth, I'm v. much interested in what you have to say about how you play the game, and where I've obviously become completely lost.


Sincerely,

Crash


 
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