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Ada
 Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 04:20 AM UTC  
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I am firmly of the opinion that there is no "way to play" a game in which all gameplay-based rewards are entirely for fun and unimportant. Unless of course you think that being at the top of a list is Serious Business, the "way to play" is whatever way keeps you entertained.

If you're looking for a way to start with money at the beginning of your DK, kill your final quest beastie but don't collect the reward until you DK, and play with titans. Lots.


 
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Bakemaster
 Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 04:25 PM UTC  
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Quote by: crashtestpilot

Hey, so, this is a v. interesting thread, in part (to me at least) b/c of the frank discussions about playstyle.
So, habitually, each DK, I split between ATT & DEF. So those are growing at a 1-1 ratio. IE, they're more or less always within a point of one another.

Is this a retarded strategy?

B/c I've been doing the same thing for so long, I never bothered to consider an alternate route.


Given that this is a game without PVP, and that survival on the toughest ranks seems to have more to do with your equipment than with your stats, I'm going to go ahead and claim that it doesn't make a huge difference how you allocate those extra stats at the end of a DK. I've been allocating them pretty evenly as well so far, and when I consider favoring either attack or defense in the future, it's really only an issue of what I'm going to find comfortable and convenient.

If you plan to do high ranks as a Robot with a Lightning Suit, most likely you won't care too much about defense. You have a penalty anyway, and getting hit will only help you kill faster. So it might make sense to favor attack. On the other hand, healing gets incredibly expensive either in req or stamina costs, so maybe you want to favor defense in order to mitigate the main weakness of that particular strategy. That wouldn't be a bad choice either, just a different one.
Quote by: crashtestpilot

For the record: I obviously have no idea how to play the game "properly" b/c I'm always out of money for the first five levels, and I just walk up the gear ladder. The notion of starting with 300K is, to me, like, wow. I mean, starting as a Kmorph with no armor expense is a novelty. Typically, I stay human, gather grenades, use those as a cash thing, and hunt for crates, and try to keep my quest-beasties up to date.


For the record: I love your strategy, and I love people who play as humans to fund their adventures by selling their free grenades to eBoy's in NewHome. As a habitual trader/reseller, my life is a hell of a lot easier when the price differential of grenades between NewHome and everywhere else is maintained.

That being said, the best way to fund a new DK is to rollover your final quest reward. This requires sticking around in your current DK until you've killed that last beastie, which can take quite a while. Whacking on a Titan before you DK potentially starts you with a lot more req, and you don't have to travel to collect it; but it's also less independently controllable since you need someone else to kill the Titan before you can collect. Still, Titans come along a lot more frequently than final quest monsters, so it's a close second in my mind. Finally, you can manipulate prices at eBoy's to make some quick bank, in effect transferring some of your pre-DK wealth to your post-DK character. The simplest way to do this right now is probably to buy out all the grenades in NewHome right before you DK, then immediately roll a human, claim your freebies and sell them back. Provided you time it right this should net you about 18,000R on Day 1 in the current economy. But the current economy is hells of fucked up by the accidental eBoy's reset. There are plenty of different ways to manipulate eBoy's to transfer req between DKs and even between players, but I don't suspect anyone uses them because they're inefficient, they get complicated and start requiring collaboration from other players, they feel exploitative, and honestly, it's just not very hard to get requisition the normal way.

Also worth noting is that any and all of these methods may cease working in the future as the game changes. If Dan didn't remember you between DKs, it would significantly change the way people went about questing, for example. For all we know, questing may work entirely differently in S3. Titans as well. You may not be rewarded in req; you may not be able to collect after a DK; this or that may change.


Unofficial Improbable Island out-of-character chat is at irc.foonetic.net, channel #iisland - come on by!
 
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tehdave
 Thursday, September 23 2010 @ 08:19 PM UTC  
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Personally, I try to roll over an End Quest whenever I can, then take down a Titan or three before I head into the Jungle. Seems to work just fine.


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, September 24 2010 @ 04:46 PM UTC  
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1) I completely believe Ada is right in saying there's no "way to play" a game right, and I fight an ingrained mentality from forever ago that says the opposite--that there are optimal ways to play that are all the ways one "should" play, since a game is about winning or being the best. (Describing the mentality, but not what I actually believe is correct.)

2) I think now that a huge factor in my FG problem is what else Ada had said--that the game really favors attack over defense, and so the Force Generator is perfect for me who put all my points into defense. Too perfect. I have 5 points added into Attack and 45 points added into Defense. Right now with a clan aura with maximum defense bonus, with zombie leathery skin, and Jump Boots and Force Generator at level 15, I sit at 62 Defense... Plus 1009.4 Bonus Defense. I have 769 hitpoints and always choose the Chemical Pack because it heals. So, whenever I get a giant blow against me, I can usually absorb it and heal up. The only time I'm cautious is when fighting a titan, because I'm spamming 10 Rounds of fighting on most other enemies, but 10 rounds might get two Titanic crushing blows, enough to kill me easy if I don't heal inbetween. Again, rank 5.

The Force Generator isn't good for Bastard Rank, I completely believe that. The Force Generator is not good when endless combat is not your goal, that's perfectly logical. But that doesn't mean that the Force Generator isn't imbalanced if it can completely nullify a big chunk of gameplay, normal jungle fighting on non-highest ranks, for a relatively low amount of money (because Dan's quest makes it accessible at the beginning of DKs).

If the Force Generator was double its cost, at something above 60000 req, that alone would be enough to make me feel like I have to work to get it (unless I figure out how you people start out with 100k or 300k? O_o). I mean, the SA-LS-SPS-1 Combat Armour is 62000. It gives me

1 ATK
16 DEF
2.5% Stam
5 Charm
5 HP per round for 10 rounds (laughably low)


Or I could get the Force Generator for half the cost, that gives me

1 DEF...
+ 1100% DEF for 200 rounds


Even at 2 base DEF, that gives you more Defense than the SA-LS-SPS-1.

There has to be some sort of pricing problem there. The Force Generator sits between a 360k req armor and a 100k req armor, at a paltry 31k req even though it's good enough to stand with the two around it.

Edit:

Also, Teh Dave and Zpatula and any other Titan-destroyers--what's the way you guys easily take down titans? Even with my Force Generator stuff, I still end up only taking out around 100k or so hitpoints off of them.


 
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tehdave
 Friday, September 24 2010 @ 05:03 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Ada had said--that the game really favors attack over defense
Edit:
Also, Teh Dave and Zpatula and any other Titan-destroyers--what's the way you guys easily take down titans? Even with my Force Generator stuff, I still end up only taking out around 100k or so hitpoints off of them.


*snip*

I'll just leave that there.


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, September 24 2010 @ 05:07 PM UTC  
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Quote by: tehdave

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Ada had said--that the game really favors attack over defense
Edit:
Also, Teh Dave and Zpatula and any other Titan-destroyers--what's the way you guys easily take down titans? Even with my Force Generator stuff, I still end up only taking out around 100k or so hitpoints off of them.


*snip*

I'll just leave that there.



Frown Why couldn't my high Defense just make me take 1 damage from most monsters as I initially expected?


 
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Bakemaster
 Friday, September 24 2010 @ 10:14 PM UTC  
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The Force Generator isn't good for Bastard Rank, I completely believe that. The Force Generator is not good when endless combat is not your goal, that's perfectly logical. But that doesn't mean that the Force Generator isn't imbalanced if it can completely nullify a big chunk of gameplay, normal jungle fighting on non-highest ranks, for a relatively low amount of money (because Dan's quest makes it accessible at the beginning of DKs).

It all depends on what you think is desirable to balance. The FG is an excellent choice for certain ranks and a poor choice for certain other ranks. So in that respect, it's balanced. Now, should equipment be balanced on or for low ranks? I don't think so. If you're doing a low rank, why do you care about balance?

Yeah, okay, I can buy a FG with Dan's quest at the beginning of my DK. But that's sure as hell not the ONLY thing I can buy. And given any half-decent market conditions, I can turn that 25,000R reward into 35,000R on day one without a ton of effort. Given better market conditions, I can buy (and have bought) armors twice as expensive as the FG on day one. Or, if I wanted, I could buy both a chainsaw and an invisisuit for even cheaper than the FG. I could buy some expensive helm/gloves/boots. I could buy a lot of things. Just because Dan's quest reward, combined with max charm discount, happens to be about enough to buy the FG, doesn't mean the FG benefits from this arrangement any more than the various other pieces of equipment that are both effective and affordable. For that matter, why do I have to buy equipment at all? Maybe I'll buy a hundred bang grenades instead, with my quest reward (this was perfectly reasonable back when eBoy's had over a thousand of each type of grenade, selling around 130R in NewHome). A hundred one-hit kills - man, so unbalanced. Should we nerf bangs?

The real issue here has less to do with the Force Generator, I think, than it does with the inherent triviality of requisition as Island currency. There are conditions that make saving or earning req a challenge, but none of them are involuntary conditions - you have to choose to play a high rank, or a race that doesn't get some sort of req-related benefit feature (half do, half don't). And when you can use req from Titans and quests at the beginning of a DK, it takes away a lot of the challenge of startup funds. If the Force Generator weren't around, we'd be talking about the SA-SPS-2 instead. About the same price, it gives a stamina boost, as much defense as pretty much any armor, plus some attack and charm? And I can buy it very first thing at level one? Broken! Nerf!

Why aren't we talking about weapons, anyway? Maybe I won't buy a Force Generator; maybe I'll buy a Plasma Gun and an Invisisuit. I still get a ton of easy kills, plus now I've got both attack and defense for the same price as one piece of armor. Heck, there's barely a weapon on the list I can't easily buy on day one. Yeah, I really think the issue here is about req in general, not about the Force Generator in particular.


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crashtestpilot
 Friday, September 24 2010 @ 11:35 PM UTC  
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Just to throw a random spanner into the works:
a) The way you play is not a representative microcosm of the rest of the Island.
b) The way I play, is most certainly not, either.
c) Making judgments on whether something is over/under-powered based on how you play is...how to put this nicely...precipitous?

I do think weapons beyond Chainsaw and armor beyond Invisisuit -- the underlying build-formulae -- could use some work.

I do agree that req is over/undervalued, depending on one's playstyle.
I think that charm/watcherfavor is vastly overrated.

The things that matter, to my mind at least, are stam bonuses/regeneration/special attacks/and number of charges.

So: Let me bring you into a piece of my world.

A very long time ago -- before the (real) Internet, at the dawn of the PC age, back in 1983, I ran into the founders of Hero Games.
At the time, they were positioned to revolutionize the whole D&D thing which was about four years from jumping the shark.
And the radical idea (duplicated in some ways by RuneQuest) was that you would have a point-build system, vs. RNG for character attributes.

The cool bit, was that you could use points to build devices that had specific effects, and you could get more points to build your interesting thing by taking disadvantages.

So, for instance, a power that had charges (ie, number of uses) got an overall price reduction w/respect to the number of points it took to build it.

So, for weapons, we have an ATT value, sometimes a DEF bonus, sometimes a stam bonus or penalty, sometimes a charm bonus or penalty, and sometimes a favor bonus or penalty. We might also have a charged penalty (doesn't last all day), or a wacky hit-yourself-in-the-head penalty (ala chainsaw-chuks). And then we might have the penalty of high prices or cig costs.

It doesn't appear to me that these have been looked at recently, with an eye to balance, and the sense of a continuum between access to devices.

I think -- and this is the reason for this post -- it would be cool to make weapons and armor like a hat.

In that you could buy a given weapons chassis (edged/ranged/etc.) and then spend cigs/req/points/time/stam/charm or some combination of all six elements to modify your weapon anyway you chose.

Every disadvantage you took (slows you down, costs stam, finite charges, blows up in your face, eats your children, vomits on your car) would allow you to spend more (stuff) on the weapon/armor/item...and then it would end up with a label you liked (ie, weapon/armor/etc deco), attributes you liked, and were in harmony with how you kill stuff and RP.

So yes: Point builds for items. Big fan of it.

And then, all you have to do as an admin is change costs to encourage various behaviors.

Want.

With respect and gratitude,

~CTP


 
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Awesome Fred
 Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 11:37 AM UTC  
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Quote by: crashtestpilot

Just to throw a random spanner into the works:
a) The way you play is not a representative microcosm of the rest of the Island.
b) The way I play, is most certainly not, either.
c) Making judgments on whether something is over/under-powered based on how you play is...how to put this nicely...precipitous?


I come from a land of games where there are fewer ways to play than Improbable Island. This game has a glorious amount of different playstyles, so it's true that the way I play is not a representative microcosm of the rest of the island. I'm quite aware of that.

It doesn't naturally follow, however, that making judgements on a gameplay element's overpowered-ness is too "precipitous" because I only have my own perspective. If that were the case, not a single one of us could make an opinion without first checking with 50% of the player base and deciding on some sort of class-action lawsuit to bring up to the developer. What people have been doing so far, which is disagreeing with me outright, is a completely appropriate and valid response. Implying that our perspectives are invalid, I don't accept.

It all depends on what you think is desirable to balance. The FG is an excellent choice for certain ranks and a poor choice for certain other ranks. So in that respect, it's balanced. Now, should equipment be balanced on or for low ranks? I don't think so. If you're doing a low rank, why do you care about balance?

Yeah, okay, I can buy a FG with Dan's quest at the beginning of my DK. But that's sure as hell not the ONLY thing I can buy. And given any half-decent market conditions, I can turn that 25,000R reward into 35,000R on day one without a ton of effort. Given better market conditions, I can buy (and have bought) armors twice as expensive as the FG on day one. Or, if I wanted, I could buy both a chainsaw and an invisisuit for even cheaper than the FG. I could buy some expensive helm/gloves/boots. I could buy a lot of things. Just because Dan's quest reward, combined with max charm discount, happens to be about enough to buy the FG, doesn't mean the FG benefits from this arrangement any more than the various other pieces of equipment that are both effective and affordable. For that matter, why do I have to buy equipment at all? Maybe I'll buy a hundred bang grenades instead, with my quest reward (this was perfectly reasonable back when eBoy's had over a thousand of each type of grenade, selling around 130R in NewHome). A hundred one-hit kills - man, so unbalanced. Should we nerf bangs?

The real issue here has less to do with the Force Generator, I think, than it does with the inherent triviality of requisition as Island currency. There are conditions that make saving or earning req a challenge, but none of them are involuntary conditions - you have to choose to play a high rank, or a race that doesn't get some sort of req-related benefit feature (half do, half don't). And when you can use req from Titans and quests at the beginning of a DK, it takes away a lot of the challenge of startup funds. If the Force Generator weren't around, we'd be talking about the SA-SPS-2 instead. About the same price, it gives a stamina boost, as much defense as pretty much any armor, plus some attack and charm? And I can buy it very first thing at level one? Broken! Nerf!

Why aren't we talking about weapons, anyway? Maybe I won't buy a Force Generator; maybe I'll buy a Plasma Gun and an Invisisuit. I still get a ton of easy kills, plus now I've got both attack and defense for the same price as one piece of armor. Heck, there's barely a weapon on the list I can't easily buy on day one. Yeah, I really think the issue here is about req in general, not about the Force Generator in particular.


While I disagree (fundamentally?) with you about balance being unnecessary in medium ranks, and I find your rationalization in your "Yeah, okay" paragraph flawed (which I will address after this paragraph), I wholeheartedly am with you on your point that the real issue probably lies within the triviality of obtaining requisition. If Dan's quest reward scaled by level (so you'd only get 1667 req for turning it in at level 1, and 167 req for the steps inbetween), does that mean you can't get good enough gear on Day 1 to get loads of req from titans? Or is there still enough or another way to make requisition acquisition on the first couple days completely trivial?

Now, about your example paragraphs:

Chainsaw + Invisisuit are not as good as the Force Generator.
Helms/Gloves/Boots are not as good as the Force Generator.
100 Bangs are not as good as the Force Generator.
SA-SPS-2 is not as good as the Force Generator.

If this is untrue for you, then I really am living in a completely different microcosm with my 45 base defense. The bonus defense that I get trumps the power of the chainsaw by far and because it's normally a one-shot or two-shot, the extra base defense from the invisisuit doesn't matter. Not a single helmet, pair of gloves, or pair of boots gives me the power of one-shotting. 100 bangs are 100 one-shots at most, the Force Generator is nearly 200 one-shots for me, sometimes less. The SA-SPS-2 is laughably inferior to the Force Generator.

The Chainsaw and Invisisuit give stats, which means that as you gain power from your DKs, you scale with diminishing returns in regards to equipment stats. 15 defense plus 15 from the Invisisuit is a much larger help than having 60 defense and then getting another 15 from the Invisisuit. The Force Generator (and Plasma Gun), on the other hand, never devalues from stat buildup. You get just as much of an improvement to your fighting (or more improvement, due to the wacky LotGD combat formula) whether you have 2 defense, 10 defense, 60 defense, or 100 defense, because it's a percentage bonus. And it's a fairly crazy bonus at that: 11 times your base defense. 10 base defense gives 110 bonus. The bonus defense then gets compounded by any other bonuses, like the clan aura, a racial defense bonus, and so on. That's why I sit at 1009 bonus defense at level 15. The SA-SPS-2 only wishes it could be that helpful. We wouldn't be arguing about the SA-SPS-2 if the Force Gen didn't exist. The FG is so much more effective than the SA-SPS-2, while the latter is not crazily better than an invisisuit.

As for Bang grenades, that is actually quite a different example that is based more around the players' economy, but still, if several people were to always play by buying out 100 grenades with Dan's Quest every time, soon the island would be Bang-starved and I'd imagine that it would be a self-limiting experience. Maybe. I don't know about this one, this one just illustrated your point about req.

But my point is, the Force Generator is imbalanced, even disregarding the availability of req, which I again say that I agree with you is a major underlying issue.


I do think weapons beyond Chainsaw and armor beyond Invisisuit -- the underlying build-formulae -- could use some work.

I do agree that req is over/undervalued, depending on one's playstyle.
I think that charm/watcherfavor is vastly overrated.

~CTP


Agreed. I think there's a whole host of problems here that are contributing. And I think that the Force Generator is an example where all these problems conspired to make an imbalanced piece of equipment that in my opinion should be addressed sooner than later.


 
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crashtestpilot
 Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 05:09 PM UTC  
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re: Awesome Fred's last post:

Fair points, all of them, and you lay out a lovely case. I think you've also cleaved to the heart of the matter which is the scaling percentage multiple provided by the FG.

And I loved your line about SPS wishing it could be this useful.

All in all, sharp analysis, and a great read.

Thanks for that,

~CTP


 
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tehdave
 Saturday, September 25 2010 @ 05:37 PM UTC  
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Quote by:Awesome Fred

The SA-SPS-2 only wishes it could be that helpful.



The SA-SPS-2 gives you something the Force Generator doesn't:
Stamina.

No, not a lot, but still. With that, the Improbable Army Knife, and the Jump Boots, you start every day at 132.5% stamina not counting beds/floorspaces/energy candy/Seth's songs/kittens/etc. If you don't need the stats for Jungle Hunting (Like, for instance, if I were to do a rank 5) then that's that much more hunting I can do in a day. Or building. Or crate-hunting. Or building up my (now useless) cooking/cleaning skills. I agree that the Force Gen is incredibly powerful, but also remember it's easy to get one-shot with it. (the hits that come in hurt, as has already been stated)

Remember that different people play the game in vastly different ways. I myself have a mostly balanced Attack/Def spread (that'll change upcoming. With 50 base Defense I think the rest is going into attack) so I rarely have a tough time in the Jungle except bad days or if I fight deep into orange stam. Which, if I'm using the SPS armor instead of the Force Gen, is at least 3 or fights extra I can do. (as a KittyMorph, with the highest hunting costs) If I'm fighting as a Midget...well...then the Force Generator's not gonna last all day. Then I'm down to +1 armor from my armor, instead of the +16.


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Snow Gray
 Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 02:44 AM UTC  
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I love my force gen, but the way I play I usually don't buy it first IF I have danquest money (which is not always). But as someone who does higher ranks, it definitely has its disadvantages in addition to the bonuses... and since I spend most of my time as a joker I really do need that bonus - I've had negative to +5 ish buff to my defense even with the force gen.


 
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Kash
 Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 03:40 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Chainsaw + Invisisuit are not as good as the Force Generator.
Helms/Gloves/Boots are not as good as the Force Generator.
100 Bangs are not as good as the Force Generator.
SA-SPS-2 is not as good as the Force Generator.



The whole thing about there being different playstyles is that there are different definitions of "good." Does the FG work as well for Bastard Rank as it does for the ranks you play? I doubt it. It also isn't generally accepted attire for weddings and such.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 06:34 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Kash

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Chainsaw + Invisisuit are not as good as the Force Generator.
Helms/Gloves/Boots are not as good as the Force Generator.
100 Bangs are not as good as the Force Generator.
SA-SPS-2 is not as good as the Force Generator.



The whole thing about there being different playstyles is that there are different definitions of "good." Does the FG work as well for Bastard Rank as it does for the ranks you play? I doubt it. It also isn't generally accepted attire for weddings and such.



The Force Generator doesn't work as well for the Bastard Rank as it does for the numbered ranks, but the bulk of players aren't running Bastard Ranks too often, are they? I'd imagine it'd be limited to players like Zpatula, Zamboni, Bakemaster, Teh Dave who run Bastard Rank as their normal rank. Not the public at large. So from my viewpoint, Bastard Rank is not a majority scenario--you choose Lightning Suit (or Plasma Gun, or whichever repeated way you handle the rank) specifically because it's Bastard, and would use FG on most other rankings.

And the Force Generator is the most imbalanced wedding attire I've ever seen, don't get me started. Wink


The SA-SPS-2 gives you something the Force Generator doesn't:
Stamina.

No, not a lot, but still.


The SA-SPS-2 gives you 5% stamina. Fighting is .066% stamina per round for me currently. When I wear the Force Generator, I knock things out in one or two hits. I'm sure that the SPS armor will not dramatically improve the length of my fights, so I'll compare it to my naked self, which takes about eight+ rounds to kill things, ten average. With two hits (worse case) versus ten (average), each time I hunt wearing the FG instead of the FPS, I save 8 rounds of fighting, which is .528 stamina saved per Hunt. If I Hunt 10 times in a day, I have saved more stamina with the FG than I have gained with the SPS.

Your numbers are going to be different than mine, but I think you might find that concept holds true for you. However, as far as the fact that it's only about hunting days and not helpful on days of Crates/Building, you're right. The SA-SPS-2 will be more helpful than the Force Generator for building. But if you're on a DK where you don't want to hit level 15 and you intend on blowing cigs on toolkits until you're all built out, of course you go for the stamina things. I get a Leatherman (the Imp Army Knife's improvement isn't worth the extra 5 cigs, in my opinion) when I'm on a construction DK instead of my usual Katana. But a central gameplay feature is combat, something that almost everyone does to different levels of enthusiasm. But I have strayed too far from my point, which is definitely not about how much people fight versus build.

The main point:

The Force Generator isn't the best armor for building.
The Force Generator isn't the best armor for RPing.
The Force Generator isn't the best armor for every single possible combat situation.
The Force Generator has its Sudden User Death Syndrome (SUDS) on it.
The Force Generator is too dangerous to use because of SUDS during Bastard Rank.

Will all this in mind,

The Force Generator is still imbalanced.
It is very easy to buy after a Drive Kill, provides a disproportionate amount of combat power compared to all the armor in its price range, and doesn't have diminishing returns on its scaling with stats.


 
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crashtestpilot
 Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 06:22 PM UTC  
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I want to get under the hood of weapons/armo(u)r/helmets/boots/gloves.

Would someone knowledgeable please post (or point me in the right direction) to this thread how various improbable abilities are appended and accounted for?

IE: Charm bonus, travel bonus, stam bonus, scary weapon, watcher favor, number of charges/rounds, and suchlike? Also disadvantages such as negative stam, and various debuffs?

And while I'm at it, how req and cig costs figure into it?

The first weapons/items available all have a logical progression to them, from the perspective of req. Then it starts getting very weird on my spreadsheet, and I'm finding some of these factors difficult to derive. In part, because I'm: a) somewhat dense, b) mathematically-challenged, and c) never passed calculus.

Many, many thanks,

~CTP


 
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Bakemaster
 Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 10:15 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Chainsaw + Invisisuit are not as good as the Force Generator.
Helms/Gloves/Boots are not as good as the Force Generator.
100 Bangs are not as good as the Force Generator.
SA-SPS-2 is not as good as the Force Generator.

If this is untrue for you, then I really am living in a completely different microcosm with my 45 base defense.


It's not your stats that are skewing your perception of what equipment is the best, it's your assumption that everyone prioritizes the same things you do when determining the value of their equipment. If all you want to do is one particular thing, then there's a good chance you'll find one item that is the best tool for the job. And it's not far-fetched to think that this one item may blow all the other items out of the water for doing that one particular thing. Seems your one particular thing is killing beasties. Now, I can understand why people might play this game and think oh, here is a game where you kill beasties. It tells me I am supposed to do that and then I am supposed to kill the drive, so I guess this is a game about accumulating drive kills (which requires killing beasties). I can understand why people might think these things, because the MMO world is positively saturated with games that work off the same general formula. That being said, I think the player base of this game has made it abundantly clear that you define your own objective in Improbable Island.

If cigarettes are more important to my goal than killing beasties, I'm sure as hell not going to blow two of them every DK on a Force Generator if I can do just fine with a Chainsaw and Invisisuit (or any other equipment that costs only req). If getting the most travel, training or building out of my day is more important than killing beasties, I'd much rather have armor (or boots) that give me stamina than a Force Generator (as tehdave said). If I'm a Nightmare Enthusiast using the Force Generator, I'm just doing it plain wrong—personally, I think there are much better choices for Titan hunting as well, but someone in your shoes stat-wise may have forced their own hand as far as that's concerned.

Now, if the Force Generator didn't cost 2 cigarettes in addition to its req price, I'd be right with you. And I did say earlier in the thread that I think it would be reasonable to decrease the duration of its effect to be more on par with the Plasma Gun, at the very least to make the Mk II version less inconsequential. But as things currently stand, there's nothing "broken" about this piece of equipment. It has plenty of drawbacks. They're just drawbacks that you happen to not care about.

I still respect your effort to make the case and argue the point, by the way. If everyone went around timidly agreeing with everyone else, truth would be a lot harder to come by. It seems that we've been on opposite sides of an issue a few times in a row, now, but that won't last forever.


Unofficial Improbable Island out-of-character chat is at irc.foonetic.net, channel #iisland - come on by!
 
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crashtestpilot
 Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 11:51 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

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I would like to timidly agree with everything you guys are saying.

What I'd like to see is how weapons/items are built with the advantage/disadvantage list opened up to scrutiny and debate.

Then we can talk pricing re: cigs/req, and analyze multiples along the lines of what AF is talking about.

I think he has a point, and I love that he's sticking to his guns (generators).

I do think the FG is a sweet spot in the armor options at SSoS, because, hell, I've standardized on it once clan buffs are at infinite.

I also like the Rusty Chainsaw, and the Devastator.

But mostly, it's invisisuit/chainsaw 4evah.

Because, hey, I need cigs to buy carpentry kits.

~CTP


 
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crashtestpilot
 Sunday, September 26 2010 @ 11:52 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

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Oh, and I can't resist:

100 bangs are not as good as the Force Generator?

Did I mention the Folsom Street Fair is today?

~CTP


 
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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, September 28 2010 @ 04:20 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

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Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 585

Quote by: Bakemaster


It's not your stats that are skewing your perception of what equipment is the best, it's your assumption that everyone prioritizes the same things you do when determining the value of their equipment. ... Seems your one particular thing is killing beasties. Now, I can understand why people might play this game and think oh, here is a game where you kill beasties. It tells me I am supposed to do that and then I am supposed to kill the drive, so I guess this is a game about accumulating drive kills (which requires killing beasties). I can understand why people might think these things, because the MMO world is positively saturated with games that work off the same general formula. That being said, I think the player base of this game has made it abundantly clear that you define your own objective in Improbable Island.

I still respect your effort to make the case and argue the point, by the way. If everyone went around timidly agreeing with everyone else, truth would be a lot harder to come by. It seems that we've been on opposite sides of an issue a few times in a row, now, but that won't last forever.



Gawrdammit, Bakemaster. I thought I made strong points and accounted for enough perspective overall, combined with what I've learned over the years about good game design, to be able to stand my case, but you still hit the weak points in addition to being gentle enough to absolutely disarm my conviction. I concede, for your point:

I absolutely thought that, yes, the solid bulk, the clear majority of players play the game to Kill Beasties and accumulate Drive Kills. My old MMO and RPG mentalities still pushed through the idea that building and exploring and RPing are side-shows in the game, when the regulars of the community seem to largely treat them as equal activities. This throws me into complete uncertainty to what CMJ and the fanbase really consider the gameplay of the game to actually be, since while everyone vocal on these forums (almost all well-known regulars) feels that combat is not as big a part of the game as I feel it is, I don't know about the silent majority and how much they use the Force Generator for whatever their typical gameplay styles are.

As it goes, I'm still of the opinion that the Force Generator does what it's good at too well for its relative ease of acquisition. But I think I'll probably leave it at that, since most other discussion I can think of about the FG would just be me repeating myself. I think we've really opened up a much larger can of worms here: there is a real problem concerning Requisition and how it changes up the Progression part of the game when you figure out tricks to easily get a lot of it early on in a DK. The pricing formula for gear also seems screwy at different places, and they should probably be analyzed and changed up. Perhaps we should do it in a new thread, with CTP heading it? (CTP, you are brilliant and awesome and humble and because of that even more awesome.)

Thank you guys for humoring my stubbornness so well. Right now I'm feeling the warm fuzzies.

PS: I thought you were telling me that 100 Bang Grenades were much better than the Force Generator, until I googled Folsom Street Fair. I get it now. >.>


 
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Bakemaster
 Tuesday, September 28 2010 @ 05:13 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

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Never go up against a Lieutenant Gentleman Mister Sir Chief Executive Officer when internet is on the line! Ha ha, ha ha, ha ha ha...! x_x

On a more serious note... I think you'll find that the "silent majority" is far from silent. This just isn't a very active message board, relatively speaking. I attribute this partly to the existence of several alternatives that serve some similar purpose (the Fourth Wall, the Wiki of Lies) and partly to the way that the text-based nature of the game encourages communication and community-building inside the game, as opposed to outside. You've got chat spaces that are outpost specific, ones that are identical between outposts, ones that are particular to dwellings and locations, ones that are clan-wide... I think the game ends up providing as much opportunity for socializing as many players could want, and so they have no incentive to go looking for an external message board.

From what I've seen, I believe a sizable majority of players who stick around past their first few DKs are at least as interested in RP, character customization, and dwellings as they are in combat.


Unofficial Improbable Island out-of-character chat is at irc.foonetic.net, channel #iisland - come on by!
 
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