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Awesome Fred
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 05:14 PM UTC  
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The one you're calling cheating is one I wouldn't call cheating at all. Taking advantage of the trains and the economy seems to me to be an intended feature that rewards cleverness. Capitalism in real life has the problem of people suffering because others take the limited amount of money. Capitalism in a game is a fun way to reward players who try to game the system without causing real problems to real people. Although, in this game, Capitalism is also a monster. Razz

Using the Nightmare Court, on the other hand, to take advantage of Improbable Bomb penalties and benefits sounds like solid unintended exploitation to me. Your line,

Now, sometime back, all you needed to have was anything above 500HP, and imp. bombs couldn't kill you by blowing up in your face. Now, they blow up in your face for double your max HP.


should give it away. There's a thread in one of these forums where CMJ says why he makes the change: being able to get away scot-free by spamming Improbable Bombs for the Charm bonus is unintended. That's why he changed it from 500HP to double your max HP-to ensure your death. Now that the Nightmare Court was made way later than this change, he probably overlooked this possibility when he made the NC. I'll go find the post where he talks about this change and edit it in later.

EDIT:

Actually, I must have remembered incorrectly. He doesn't explicitly state the reason of this change. But indirectly in a conversation between Buddleia and Zolotisty, Z says that the benefits of Imp Bombs outweigh the problems of them too much for game balance. http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=18194 It's also why Dan intends to remove them for something else, as the thread says.

I could have sworn he said it himself somewhere, though, but a search of the forum for "Improbability Bombs" yields only that relevant thread.


 
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Wongo the Sane
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 05:14 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

So. In my opinion, what's wrong with the Dan quests is not that they allow people who invest the effort to start out a DK run well equipped. It's that they are not fun. They are repetitive. They are boring. Nobody would do them more than a handful of times, were it not for the DK carryover. ... well. Perhaps not entirely true. There is the quester list in the hall of fame. But getting to the top of a list doesn't provide much reason for pride unless there's some value to having what's being listed. I suspect quester points alone would not be enough motivation for most.

If the Dan quest rewards are not going to carry over past a DK, in other words... I say, scrap them entirely. Yes, I would be sentimental about losing those misspelled monsters which have been part of the game since the very beginning -- the Sea Sperpent, the Chimrera -- but I'd rather Dan's rumors started being about something else entirely. Something that would be more fun.



Please don't.
My house has a hidden vault (or two) containing my quest items, and I have a list of everything Dan's ever sent me to find.
There's hints of this around the house; like the Golden Grail of Justice being used as a vase.

Am I the only one who cares about these?
Anyone else?

Anyone?

Well fine, I guess it is just me then. Rolling Eyes

But on a different note, I don't see how you could do a constantly refreshing (as opposed to one shot, like Mr Stern's) quest without it becoming repetitive and boring after a few times 'round.
And yes, I'd still do them if they didn't carry over. It's a large pile or req for doing what I was going to do anyway. On the harder ranks, that becomes a godsend (especially if 'loopholes' for carrying req across DK's are being closed).


 
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Count Sessine
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 05:38 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Wongo+the+Sane

Quote by: Count+Sessine

So. In my opinion, what's wrong with the Dan quests is not that they allow people who invest the effort to start out a DK run well equipped. It's that they are not fun. They are repetitive. They are boring. Nobody would do them more than a handful of times, were it not for the DK carryover. ... well. Perhaps not entirely true. There is the quester list in the hall of fame. But getting to the top of a list doesn't provide much reason for pride unless there's some value to having what's being listed. I suspect quester points alone would not be enough motivation for most.

If the Dan quest rewards are not going to carry over past a DK, in other words... I say, scrap them entirely. Yes, I would be sentimental about losing those misspelled monsters which have been part of the game since the very beginning -- the Sea Sperpent, the Chimrera -- but I'd rather Dan's rumors started being about something else entirely. Something that would be more fun.



Please don't.
My house has a hidden vault (or two) containing my quest items, and I have a list of everything Dan's ever sent me to find.
There's hints of this around the house; like the Golden Grail of Justice being used as a vase.

Am I the only one who cares about these?
Anyone else?

Anyone?

Well fine, I guess it is just me then. Rolling Eyes

But on a different note, I don't see how you could do a constantly refreshing (as opposed to one shot, like Mr Stern's) quest without it becoming repetitive and boring after a few times 'round.
And yes, I'd still do them if they didn't carry over. It's a large pile or req for doing what I was going to do anyway. On the harder ranks, that becomes a godsend (especially if 'loopholes' for carrying req across DK's are being closed).

Okay, well. Point. I've got to admit I do have a similar notebook. But then... I have a high threshold for 'repetitive'. I've heard and seen many players complaining bitterly.

For those who aren't charmed by the quests as they are now -- would the quests become more meaningful if Dan's rumors weren't just randomly picked outposts? Suppose the quests started being directed to that outpost which was currently most under threat or overrum by Onslaught at the time the quest was assigned?

It makes some game-world sense that the quest monsters might be attracted to large hordes of other monsters. And, if you went to do it right away, fighting in the jungle of a threatened outpost would possibly feel more useful than fighting in a randomly chosen one.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 05:49 PM UTC  
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Sessine, that would be an amazing improvement if the Dan Quests were directed towards Outposts threatened or suffering from Onslaught. Especially if several people all picked up their quest and ended up fighting there at the same time. And I don't want to take this too far to be manageable, but if it could later also send people off towards the cities with Titans near them. We could have the game mechanics direct players towards the challenges in such a subtle way.

Otherwise, I too wouldn't miss Dan's Quests. And the biggest reason for it is that even though Dan says, "This is bigger than the Drive itself," etcetera, I feel no connection to Improbable Island's entire story when I fight the Winged Chimera of Doom or pick up the Angelic Sword of Truth. It feels so out-of-place that I don't enjoy it in its story at all. When I spam through Jungle fights, I every so often stop and read one of them again, and generally chuckle or smirk. When I stop and read a Dan Quest text, I get no enjoyment out of it whatsoever.


 
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Wongo the Sane
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 06:21 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Sessine, that would be an amazing improvement if the Dan Quests were directed towards Outposts threatened or suffering from Onslaught. Especially if several people all picked up their quest and ended up fighting there at the same time. And I don't want to take this too far to be manageable, but if it could later also send people off towards the cities with Titans near them. We could have the game mechanics direct players towards the challenges in such a subtle way.

Otherwise, I too wouldn't miss Dan's Quests. And the biggest reason for it is that even though Dan says, "This is bigger than the Drive itself," etcetera, I feel no connection to Improbable Island's entire story when I fight the Winged Chimera of Doom or pick up the Angelic Sword of Truth. It feels so out-of-place that I don't enjoy it in its story at all. When I spam through Jungle fights, I every so often stop and read one of them again, and generally chuckle or smirk. When I stop and read a Dan Quest text, I get no enjoyment out of it whatsoever.



Good points both. Especially with the probability of quest assignment veering towards the most over-run outposts - that would be very nice.

And I'll agree the objects don't really fit the setting, but I like them nonetheless.
Perhaps some re-writing of the 'fluff', so that they make a bit more sense?


 
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Count Sessine
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 08:13 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

I don't want to take this too far to be manageable, but if it could later also send people off towards the cities with Titans near them. We could have the game mechanics direct players towards the challenges in such a subtle way.

Using the highest current monster-count to pick the Dan-quest outpost would be simple, direct, and self-balancing. There'd be a player incentive to go off to that outpost right away -- if you left it too long others would have dealt with the problem, and you'd only be mopping up. Sure, you'd be nailing the quest monster, but you wouldn't be helping the outpost.

The reason the quest monsters stay in the same outpost would be that they, uh... Okay, they crossed dimensions to the Island attracted by high monster counts, but they aren't able to sense concentrations once they're here, so they stay put! (That explains the monsters... haven't thought of a good flavour-text rationale for quest items being located around the most-threatened outpost... Well, we don't have an explanation now, so at least that wouldn't be any worse.)

Trying to include Titans in this would be harder -- and it would also disrupt the feedback mechanism, because killing a Titan happens on the map and doesn't do anything to reduce the monster-count in an outpost.


 
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Iriana
 Sunday, December 05 2010 @ 12:03 AM UTC  
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Just wondering, what's the reasoning behind having the quest monsters a) take forever to find and b) stay in one outpost? I almost think it's better to have the quest monster move with the most threatened outpost at the time, so it's even more incentive to get your butt over to that outpost, search for your monster, and kill some baddies at the same time. If you leave it, or disregard the threat to the outpost, the outpost takes hits AND your quest monster moves.

Or, you know, it'd be nice if after the first few times it moves away, and you ignore it, it starts hopping to totally random outposts, thereby making the quest pretty much impossible. That way, people can't sit on their Danquests till after DK, and they'd have to go and do some work at the threatened outpost but they'd benefit from it as well.

There are large problems lurking alongside this "suggestion", but I just can't figure out what they are because I couldn't figure out a six-piece jigsaw right now. I think I need to sleep some more. Perhaps with some serious adjustment this could be interesting, but.


 
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Kash
 Sunday, December 05 2010 @ 10:25 PM UTC  
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Idea: Construct flavor text such that it seems the Questie is leading the Onslaught. As far as game mechanics goes, this rides on the coattails of the Onslaught module, but in story terms, this rationalizes the Onslaught. A question I've had before is "what causes the monsters to concentrate on this-or-that outpost?" And it would make sense to answer with "because some other-worldly/supernatural/awesomely-paint-jobbed Monster is leading the attack."


 
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Swede
 Monday, December 06 2010 @ 07:44 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana

Or, you know, it'd be nice if after the first few times it moves away, and you ignore it, it starts hopping to totally random outposts, thereby making the quest pretty much impossible. That way, people can't sit on their Danquests till after DK, and they'd have to go and do some work at the threatened outpost but they'd benefit from it as well.


I don't think the problem is people waiting with fighting their quest. The problem is people (me too) kill their quest endboss, but wait to collect their reward till after their DK. So if I hurry to the said outpost and kill my quest monster I can still "sit on my quest". That way when I start a new DK, I have a nice cash reward waiting for me, to buy a plasma gun or force field generator.

Also a problem I see with this solution, is that there are with people who don't play daily or even spend a few days roleplaying. Their quest monster will be long gone then.


 
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Iriana
 Monday, December 06 2010 @ 09:10 AM UTC  
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Bleah. Swede, you're right on both counts. Remind me to sleep before I start spouting things next time.


 
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tehdave
 Monday, December 06 2010 @ 06:47 PM UTC  
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So, to throw my 2 cents in for an idea for questing...
Yes, the current quest system is boring. Not just because it means endless Jungle Fights, but because that's all it is! "Go here, kill monsters until you find then come back to me."

Maybe...maybe there's a way to make it more epic feeling?

You see...there's taverns in most outposts now, and more coming, right? With bartenders there too, right?

Maybe...You see Dan, and he says "I hear Miu-Miu has a job might interest an adventurer like yourself. Go see her in Kittania." So, you go off to Kitt, enter The Sunny Spot, and talk to Miu-Miu, who tells you about an Item Of Legendô that has gone missing from the Council Offices. Rumor has it that it was last seen in the clutches of something no one got a good glimpse of. People say they saw something weird outside of {insert troubled outpost here}, maybe it's what took it? Go check it out!

So you go to New Pitts, and it's overrun, but you get an option to sneak into Vigor Mortis and talk to George there, and he tells you he heard a story about something out in the Jungle here, but could you help get the onslaught under control first, and he'll give you the info after? Then once the onslaught is brought down (or at least the player puts a major dent in it) he tells you he heard that yeah, there's something out there wielding the Item Of Legendô and causing havoc. Head out there and Scout it. (Not kill. For reasons about to be explained)

So you go into the Jungle, and fight a few monsters, and find the Quest Beast: with Titan level HP and ridiculous attack/defense stats. The kind of thing you have to run from or it will Failboat you. However, having seen it, you talk to George again, who tells you he thinks Dan might recognize the monster if you describe it to him. So you go back to IC, and talk to Dan, who tells you the name of the monster, and that the Bartender at CC404 knows what you have to do to defeat it (Find its lackey, or soul jar, or an item it's weak to, or something). So you go to CC404, where you talk to the Bartender there, and he tells you he's not feeling too safe, what with the walls being as they are, could you build them up a bit and then he'll talk. He then tells you about {whatever you need to find} which is either in the Jungle, or points you to a world map square (which, once you get close, gives Titan-like directions to it) where you can find The Thing You're Looking For, which you take back to CC404. The bartender then tells you about another Thing To Find, but he doesn't know where it is. Maybe Elias (or whoever mans the bar in AceHigh) knows about it.

So you go to AceHigh...
etc for however many iterations, until you collect all the items you need (in your Quest Bag) and finally get told "Oh, the {quest beast} has been spotted outside {troubled outpost}. Head there and confront it." You get there, find the beast, and fight it (now with less HP and lowered attack/defense values) until it gets low on HP, when it runs. You talk to the Bartender, and he gives you a tracker, tuned to your quest beast. (They just finished working on it and attuning it, or something) You then track your quest beast (again, similar to Titan directions) across the world map, until you find the Dwelling(!) it's hiding in. You get the option of walking into the Quest version of the dwelling, which is the same (descriptively) as the normal, but without chat spaces or floor spaces, and only nav options to go to the room the Quest Beast is hiding in (You're hot on its trail, and you've got it cornered, tunnel vision kind of thing). You finally defeat the monster, and the Item Of Legendô teleports you back to The Sunny Spot, where Miu-Miu hands you your reward (immediately) and thanks you for your time.

To me, this would be a terribly rewarding way to do the quests...make it actually feel like the quest means something, and interacts with the game in a much bigger way than "Dan told me to find {Adjective Noun of Noun} in {Random Outpost} and he'll give me some req for it."
Obviously, as far as the dwellings go, dwelling owners would be given the option to opt-in to the quests, and set individual rooms as "available for quest beasts" so, for instance, if there's a room you don't want any random person to go into for some reason (even without chatspaces) or if it simply wouldn't make sense for a quest beast to have gotten in there, it won't be there. but all the rooms between the entrance and that space would be able to be seen. Or something.

Yes, this sounds (even to me) like a massive undertaking, and there'd have to be some sort of interim reward for each step (maybe get a thousand req for helping drop the threat level, couple thousand req are found with each interim item or looted off lackeys, etc.) - I think that way, you sidestep the ability to Carry Quest Rewards Over (which is, IIRC Something the Devs Wanted To Do Anyway) but still give a reward for performing the quest... another thing is, maybe when you DK in the middle of a quest, you get a message when you come back (as a distraction maybe) from the original Bartender that "Someone else came by and returned the item. But I'll have Dan let you know next time we've got a job. Thanks for your time anyway."

Also, you could add fluff text that these monsters are responsible for bringing the Onslaught, or whatever, something to bring them into the II world instead of really being Word Salad Named Quest Beasts

Thoughts/ideas?


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Mister Rawr
 Monday, December 06 2010 @ 08:18 PM UTC  
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Quote by: tehdave

Blah blah blah... a bunch of words'n stuff...



Buh... AWESOMEExclaimation

I have no doubt that this would be difficult to encode, but no more so than the rail road. This seems to draw together a single solution for a few different problems.

Dear Santa,
I have been a very good boy this year and have not killed too many orcs in the Jungle. For Christmas I would like...
THIS!
Sincerely,
Rawr


 
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, December 06 2010 @ 08:31 PM UTC  
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Well, we really need a quest system, don't we? Right now, with the exception of Dan's quests (which are boring), all the plot events in the game are hard-coded. Something that could take text, requirements, events and rewards from the database (potentially player-created!) and then structure up a quest would be a nifty thing.

I'mma split this off into a new thread.


 
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Paul Lo
 Tuesday, December 07 2010 @ 02:48 AM UTC  
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Dan, you are not boring; we love you. A little more with what you just wrote, which is quite frankly an achievement. Surprised!


Yes, I have a dream, of electronic sheeps and linen bedsheets. But that's not the point. Or isn't it?
 
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Swede
 Tuesday, December 07 2010 @ 11:38 AM UTC  
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Quote by: tehdave

So you go into the Jungle, and fight a few monsters, and find the Quest Beast: with Titan level HP and ridiculous attack/defense stats. The kind of thing you have to run from or it will Failboat you.


And then there are Bob or Tyr whom probably kill the buggers dead anyway. Rolling Eyes

But I like the idea.


 
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tehdave
 Tuesday, December 07 2010 @ 04:52 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Swede

Quote by: tehdave

So you go into the Jungle, and fight a few monsters, and find the Quest Beast: with Titan level HP and ridiculous attack/defense stats. The kind of thing you have to run from or it will Failboat you.


And then there are Bob or Tyr whom probably kill the buggers dead anyway. Rolling Eyes

But I like the idea.



Or myself, but note the bolded text...I'm talking Bastard Rank level attack/defense.


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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