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Maniak
 Friday, February 25 2011 @ 07:23 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Chimental

DID SOMEONE SAY CAT DERAILMENT?!






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Ashtu
 Friday, February 25 2011 @ 08:27 PM UTC  
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*Sniff sniff*
Reverb and I are so proud.......

Now, back to your previously scheduled thread......

Quote by: spandex

Yeah, my point too. Annnd this raises issues of land-- if there's a mill there's wheat growing somewhere.
And labour.
And what to do about jokers.


Thank you.
 
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hajen
 Friday, February 25 2011 @ 09:16 PM UTC  
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i don't even have to go to icanhazcheezburger.com to get my daily kitteh fix today; i iz so happy.
i lub dis forum.
i can't believe it pulled in a mod and almost pulled in an admin Mr. Green

coming soon to the island:
FACT: FERRETS WITH CHAINSAW ARE AWESOME


"tis better to be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt"
 
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CavemanJoe
 Friday, February 25 2011 @ 10:47 PM UTC  
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You were supposed to resist the urge! UR DOIN IT RONG


 
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Maniak
 Friday, February 25 2011 @ 11:07 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Ashtu

*Sniff sniff*
Reverb and I are so proud.......

Now, back to your previously scheduled thread......

Quote by: spandex

Yeah, my point too. Annnd this raises issues of land-- if there's a mill there's wheat growing somewhere.
And labour.
And what to do about jokers.



Well, here's the thing, right. And this is just like, my opinion, because mind you, I don't roleplay often. Hardly ever, really. But.. aren't you taking roleplaying far too seriously?

Does every breadcrumb really need to have an origin? Every dog a hereditary tree? Say you want to have a nice picnic with your girl out on the beach. You'd better spend years ahead of time, raising sheep for the bleeding picnic blanket. Shaving them, processing their wool, bleaching it, dyeing it, weaving it. God forbid a nice a glass of wine. Do you grow the grapes, stomp them with your feet, letting it ferment for years? Craft a shovel to dig up sand, cut down trees and stone to make a furnace so you can smelt the sand into glass to drink from? Do you want a cake to eat? Grow sugar canes to process, milk cows (god no, you need a bucket!), grow wheat (a hoe!). You need 11 iron ingots, a workbench, 2 sticks and a furnace.

At a certain point it's going too far (much like this Minecraft-reference), and you'd better just steal the cake in AceHigh, consequences be damned. This is a game, and you can put as much depth into your own roleplaying as you darn well please you want to do.

Proposed guideline: If it's a consumable good, you can cut corners. If it's something you are going to use in roleplay often, put some effort into it.


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Nanobug
 Friday, February 25 2011 @ 11:32 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak

Well, here's the thing, right. And this is just like, my opinion, because mind you, I don't roleplay often. Hardly ever, really. But.. aren't you taking roleplaying far too seriously?

Does every breadcrumb really need to have an origin? Every dog a hereditary tree? Say you want to have a nice picnic with your girl out on the beach. You'd better spend years ahead of time, raising sheep for the bleeding picnic blanket. Shaving them, processing their wool, bleaching it, dyeing it, weaving it. God forbid a nice a glass of wine. Do you grow the grapes, stomp them with your feet, letting it ferment for years? Craft a shovel to dig up sand, cut down trees and stone to make a furnace so you can smelt the sand into glass to drink from? Do you want a cake to eat? Grow sugar canes to process, milk cows (god no, you need a bucket!), grow wheat (a hoe!). You need 11 iron ingots, a workbench, 2 sticks and a furnace.

At a certain point it's going too far (much like this Minecraft-reference), and you'd better just steal the cake in AceHigh, consequences be damned. This is a game, and you can put as much depth into your own roleplaying as you darn well please you want to do.

Proposed guideline: If it's a consumable good, you can cut corners. If it's something you are going to use in roleplay often, put some effort into it.


Absolutely. We don't want this game turning into that or something like Farmville or Runescape, puh'lease.

When I had suggested about the restaurants, I imagined all the money would just disappear (back to CMJ I guess), not go to the restaurant owners. They would be doing this for fun, not for profit. Imagine a future II Zagat style publication, that lists the most creative, funny, classy, or crazy restaurants around the island. And the kudos that would go to the owners for creating them. Let's not turn this into actual WORK.

Plus, after all that effort, your girl would probably tell you at the picnic that she was breaking up with you, cause you were spending too much time away from her making everything from scratch.


 
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Derp derp
 Friday, February 25 2011 @ 11:50 PM UTC  
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How about there are a number of preset things that can be bought? Food, decorations, maybe some custom items. There should also be regulations for prices, especially for food; we don't want 50% stamina for 10 req. The owner should also only get maybe 50% of the money spent so they can't get infinite of whatever for free.

Food: amount of stamina given and how filling determined by cost set. The owner should be able to set a description and also how fatty it would be.
Decorations: just something that would be displayed in bios, with a little bit of flavor text.
Custom items: either there should be a separate storage area (a shopping bag?) where useless ones go and ones that have effects should go in the backpack.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 12:14 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak


Well, here's the thing, right. And this is just like, my opinion, because mind you, I don't roleplay often. Hardly ever, really. But.. aren't you taking roleplaying far too seriously?



Not strictly true that, I've been watching you and your kid in Squathole, and quite enjoying it too if I may say so.

Um, don't actually have anything to add on the actual subject matter in hand though.


 
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dizzyizzy
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 12:21 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Derp+derp

How about there are a number of preset things that can be bought? Food, decorations, maybe some custom items. There should also be regulations for prices, especially for food; we don't want 50% stamina for 10 req. The owner should also only get maybe 50% of the money spent so they can't get infinite of whatever for free.

Food: amount of stamina given and how filling determined by cost set. The owner should be able to set a description and also how fatty it would be.
Decorations: just something that would be displayed in bios, with a little bit of flavor text.
Custom items: either there should be a separate storage area (a shopping bag?) where useless ones go and ones that have effects should go in the backpack.



Not that I'm against customization and everything, but I'm pretty leery of this one. What are the natures of "Decorations"? As it is, the island's got a very clean layout, no useless frills, about as professional-looking as a game can be, and I love it that way. Not to sound like a broken record from the "change one thing" thread, but this is not myspace, and should not be more like myspace. I'm interpreting that to be some sort of embedded graphic, which will quickly become sparkly names and all that dumb shit middle schoolers are obsessed with.


 
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Beeps
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 12:41 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Wolfgang

So.... I'm playing with a new character i created before all the fancy optimization work started (Ps. Thank you CMJ for making II even better.) and being around some of the major centers (ie. Newhome/IC) It made me see something. Shops. People have dwellings which they have called shops. they supposedly have things being sold at these shops. And obviously, you can't buy anything....

I'm no programmer and i have no idea how hard it might be to program into the system a user based shop of sorts.... but is it a plausible idea? And if so, Whats the feedback on this idea? Would we want user based stores, Req and cigs flying around like paper? Would it hurt or help gameplay?

Or is the whole damn thing much to complicated to worry about?

Personally.... i think it might be fun. have people selling custom items and stuff (Though it occurs to me you'd have to program that to wouldn't you?(also occurs that any submission for a custom item would have to go through a mod or admin as to not have "god-items")) or like coffee and other things. Business on the island. I think it might give people with extra req, or too much time something interesting to do. As for hurting or helping II.... not sure. I can't quite make up my mind.


I do like the idea of being able to physically buy and sell items. I had, at one point, muddled over a sort-of similar idea for a system I'd been calling "Widgets," which were basically any sort of item you wanted to make. The idea was that they'd take up a sleeping spot, adding a sort of... "look at ____" option. You can do that with rooms, to an extent, but the system wording of rooms isn't really flexible in this respect. Of course, this idea had a lot more things I wanted, because feature creep kills 90% of my ideas before I even start.
Still, I'd sort of like to be able to trade physical it-
Quote by: Alkerio

(for example, an erotic book...raaawr ;3 ).


Never mind. Please never do this, CMJ.

On the topic of food/healing, the idea of using meat seems like an interesting option. It would bring a use to a system that most people seem to agree is no longer really useful - But how do you make a system like that more handy than just carrying med kits?


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Wolfgang
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 01:31 AM UTC  
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This is the kind of discussion i was wanting! (although admittedly the catz Were pretty awesome...)

I have to admit, i have only been around for S2 so i had no idea that this idea has a similar counter part in S1 that clearly didn't work.
Having said that, couldn't we use that as an experience and change things so a repeat doesn't happen?

Personally, i wasn't thinking of these shops to be anything for profit, but something more tangible for an Rp'er. Instead of pretending to buy 8000 Req worth of alcohol or food, you literally have to HAVE that money in order to get drunk. It, in my opinion, adds a certain amount of realism to the Rp we already have going. But in no way was i thinking that the profit would DEFINITELY go back to the player who owns the store. It might be nice, but truthfully i couldn't give a damn. I just think it might add a different aspect to the Rp side of the game. connecting the idea of the story cannon with the actual Rp'ing going on in the game.

So, Clearly it seems that people are iffy on this whole thing. So what about Alternate ideas? A way to have "Shops" but not have the Island's economy or atmosphere turn to shit?


 
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Beeps
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 02:23 AM UTC  
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To expand on actual discussion and not just be a jerk about petty things...

Quote by: Zolotisty


Right, why don't we have user-fillable and customizable books yet? That seems relatively straightforward -- pick up a blank book from an NPC shop, choose from a number of preselected covers (like you pick a giftbox when sending a gift to another player), then the weight of the book is determined by the number of words in the corresponding text box. Maybe if it were particularly fancy, there could be text boxes per chapter, and the weight of the book is simply calculated from the total text box word count. Every thousand words is .25 kg or somma.


For one, yes. This would be great. But as to why? This is basically a stripped down version of the dwelling system. Something like this would definitely need a new table in the database, which, to my understanding, is frowned upon/disallowed for new modules at this time. On top of this, we'd likely need some sort of way to display the books, or make them more available than something that the owner can read from their inventory - What fun would that be? Add the fact that items cost an SP to trade and handing someone a journal at the end of your DK run becomes a bit of an ordeal. I'm a huge supporter of the idea of a system like this (Though it would mean I just wasted a huge amount of Hunter's Lodge items and NewDays making a bunch of rooms for separate books in my house...) but the current inventory system doesn't seem to be too friendly to the idea.

IGNORING EVERYTHING JUST STATED...
Do something... Minecraft-y. Say a book takes wood, turned into paper. So we have a location that you take a log to - One log equals ten pages for the book, it takes X stamina to make the pages (Or you can pay the NPC to do it for you), and some semi-trivial amount of stamina to actually write the book - Like housing deco jobs, but cheaper - Writing isn't hard, it's just time consuming.

Quote by: Zolotisty

However, the fastest way to make something like this come to fruition is as Maniak points out:

Quote by: Maniak

We have just the thing. Users are allowed to create their own 'modules' which can then hook into dwellings. The trains are a fine example of this, but a module can do what you want. Though if it upsets game-balance, it won't be accepted.

If you want to set up a shop that sells food, you can code it yourself. If you use the available source code, a restaurant isn't too hard - you have 4 examples on hand.

Join us on labs.improbableisland.com.


This is, of course, assuming that every Islander with an idea for something new is thoroughly comfortable with PHP - And I seem to remember even you saying you were sketchy on the details. Wink
That aside-
I don't want to seem like a buzzkill here, but... The labs seems dead in a number of ways. I've brought this up there, too.
Separating the Labs from the forum creates a massive barrier between content developers and content users, one which it seems most people aren't willing to traverse over. I think I've seen a total of maybe six people over there, and several were just "Hey it would be cool if you made..." and never posted again. The Labs seems like it needs to be a subforum here, so we can actually get the attention of the players and get feedback.
The other problem I've had with the Labs, and again, I don't want to sound like I'm calling people out or being critical...
Atop the small dev community, I don't think we've actually seen modules submitted get approved. At all. This could be an issue with the fact that the entire module submission system seems to be broken. But Devon wrote a giant marble system that seemed to get discarded as soon as it was done? Maniak wrote an ATM module that got no feedback that I saw. There was the dice module I threw out there. I've posted bug fixes for several issues, and and once skipped the labs and posted a (rough) module for easier player-to-player donations in the main forum, which seemed to kill the thread. My personal experience has been that the Labs are the dark basement of the community chat space that people only go to to fix the boiler, and there's a large hole in the floor where you can throw your creations in.

There's also
Quote by: CavemanJoe

Beyond that, Season Two is pretty much at feature-freeze for a while, as I think up new things to add in.

I don't know if this means he's completely not taking new features, or if he's just saying he's not working on anything until what he's got planned is done.

I appreciate that the current system allows modules to tie into rooms, but this also seems somewhat... hardcoded, from what I've gleaned. So not only would a player have to understand PHP and learn the LotGD system, but they'd have to have a firm grasp on a lot of the workings of the existing modules, and be able to recognize values in the currently active system - Without being able to go to the database and look up "Oh, the girl's bathroom in the bingo hall is room ID __." If the location a module is supposed to take place in needs to change, it would require that the module creator ask a mod (Or CMJ himself, I'm not sure) to update the code.

Sorry that this came out so... negative, but it's sort of how I see things currently.


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Reverb
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 05:15 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Zolotisty

Let me take this opportunity to put on my moderation cap, as opposed to my moderation goggles.

PLEASE DO NOT BE PROUD OF THREAD DERAILMENT.

(it was cute the first 20 - 30 times. maybe.)

rabl rabl rabl rabl rabl



It's only bad if you do it on porpoise, right?

Asthu and me, we're just a positive feedback loop of tangents and..

I did it again, didn't i?


"Censure acquits the Raven, but pursues the Dove." "So, that means i'm -always- innocent, right?"
 
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dizzyizzy
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 05:22 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Reverb

Asthu[/p]


Chthashtu?


 
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Maniak
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 11:21 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

Quote by: Maniak


Well, here's the thing, right. And this is just like, my opinion, because mind you, I don't roleplay often. Hardly ever, really. But.. aren't you taking roleplaying far too seriously?



Not strictly true that, I've been watching you and your kid in Squathole, and quite enjoying it too if I may say so.

Um, don't actually have anything to add on the actual subject matter in hand though.


Please don't mention that, Child Protection Services might catch wind and take it away. Billy is in clear violation of Rule 4, ok? "Meheeeh!" Hush Billy.

About food/restaurants in dwellings: I might be underestimating the II community, but wouldn't everybody exclusively serve steaks? I love the proposed system of bringing meat, and think it would work well. Bring your own meat, let the cook turn it into something tastier. This could be quest-like, finding ingredients and being rewarded with a large stamina boost or getting paid for. Everybody will be happy! There would be a shop, something to RP, a new repeatable quest, a stamina boost, and finally a use for that level 100 in cleaning carcasses.

Quote by: Wolfgang


So, Clearly it seems that people are iffy on this whole thing. So what about Alternate ideas? A way to have "Shops" but not have the Island's economy or atmosphere turn to shit?


COOBBBBLEEESTOOOONEEEES!

Which brings us nicely to:
Quote by: Beeps


Do something... Minecraft-y. Say a book takes wood, turned into paper. So we have a location that you take a log to - One log equals ten pages for the book, it takes X stamina to make the pages (Or you can pay the NPC to do it for you), and some semi-trivial amount of stamina to actually write the book - Like housing deco jobs, but cheaper - Writing isn't hard, it's just time consuming.


Sounds like fun. Doesn't solve the problem of where to get books, where to store books, how long to keep them, but it seems another thread popped up about that.

Quote by: Beeps


Beeps said a lot of stuff about Labs here, that's all correct.


Sadly, true. My own ATM module has been met with overwhelming silence (despite distractions and an e-mail). I'd even be satisfied if CMJ said 'thanks for the effort but I'll never accept it because [insert any reason here].' But not even that. I'm less motivated to work on a different module because of it.

Devon's marble module has an overwhelming depth to it, your dice-module seems to be perfect for a roleplaying game. I saw someone mention an in-game Improbable Island version of Dungeons and Dragons. Not to mention Jokers. Why can't I roll a simple dice?


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Beeps
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 12:32 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak

I saw someone mention an in-game Improbable Island version of Dungeons and Dragons.


That was Arodang. It was that and me trying to come up with a way to play games of chance without people feeling cheated that spawned the Dice idea.


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Awesome Fred
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 03:38 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Alkerio
(for example, an erotic book...raaawr ;3 ).



Never mind. Please never do this, CMJ.


You're telling me you didn't enjoy The Lusty Argonian Maid?

On other notes going through here, I'm talking only 'cause Maniak is talking. I too am an almost-never RPer, so I try to avoid threads strictly about RP nowadays.

1) I think combining the Enquirer and Labs is a good idea. There's a lot more exposure here, and there's no need to separate the communities. Though, I'd really like for the Enquirer to look like the Labs. The highly pixelated "stone" background of the Enquirer seems really... uh... ugly.

2) In World of Warcraft, for a time during the original non-expansion'd version, there was a mod called "Ephemeral", which gave players the ability to create fake Quest Items and Books and etcetera, and these items would could into the fake inventories of anyone else who ran the mod Ephemeral. Therefore, players could write their own books and give them to each other, and there could be clues that directed the people towards the objectives of the fake quests that the player made in the Ephemeral interface. When they did what you wanted, you would have to send them the gem or bone or hypercapacitor gizmo or whatever fake quest item you made, and so players could engage in their own item economy and book-writing.

For II, I don't know about making full-fledged novels, but the capacity for players to write small books (short stories and manual size) and distribute them would probably prove very popular. Selling player-made items at shops for fake player currency might be a good idea. And rather than it being a fake player currency, maybe Devon's Marbles would be good, or Cobblestones, or both. Yeah, yeah, I know Sessine is at like 6 million or 30 million or 630 million Cobblestones, but the longer we wait, the harder it's going to be make a Cobblestone economy that equalizes into a fair state.

3) As far as the origin of items, I think you guys are forgetting the in-game universe. In Improbable Island, you can fuckin' grow books directly from the ground in the book farm, and if you run these books through a book pulper and a millstone in the southern hemisphere, you can even make a tree out of it.

Honestly, I'd like to see Stone-Bearing Trees in the mountains which is where you get your Stone for constructions, not from the ground. It's silly and ridiculous, but it's internally consistent enough that no one is going to say, "This game doesn't make any sense." You know what doesn't make sense? Gold rusting. It angers me when I get an iPhone game where you have to collect the gold before it rusts. But stone growing from trees? Easy to suspend one's disbelief.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 06:40 PM UTC  
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I don't have the time to write a proper reply just now (calling around folks back home), but here's the skinny:

Maniak, Beeps, you're both entirely correct. Well. 90% correct. I'll come back to this later.


 
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Beeps
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 08:06 PM UTC  
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Oh, CMJ. I do want to point out that while I know you rely on the Island, I am hardly of the delusion that it's your life. Even when you make your living off a website (Perhaps especially when you make your living off a website!), the work is important, but the world continues around us. I'm not complaining that you aren't responding to every thread made within five minutes of a post on the Labs.


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Zolotisty
 Saturday, February 26 2011 @ 08:23 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Beeps

Oh, CMJ. I do want to point out that while I know you rely on the Island, I am hardly of the delusion that it's your life. Even when you make your living off a website (Perhaps especially when you make your living off a website!), the work is important, but the world continues around us. I'm not complaining that you aren't responding to every thread made within five minutes of a post on the Labs.



I think that was more 'I have heard you, reasonable and concerned citizen, and you deserve a proper reply -- and it is coming, but I gotta talk to my folks first,'

than it was,

'Take this brief appeasement post wherein I subtly remind you I have a life, as I have misunderstood your message to mean you are a raving, pushy jerk who requires a nominal response to everything that might fall from thine lips.'

Wink

(I think you're super reasonable too, Beeps! And even though I can't figure out what the goddang heck your avatar is, I am pretty much always happy to read what you contribute here.)


BARK BARK BARK.
 
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