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 A modest proposal.
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Count Sessine
 Monday, April 30 2012 @ 11:32 PM UTC  
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Jakell can say for himself what he meant, but as I read it, he was specifically saying it should not be an option a player would have to choose, like Puzzle Combat.

Rather, I believe he was suggesting a modification to my critical hit suggestion: occasional large-damage wounds instead of instant kills -- with, I imagine, differing flavour text telling you which part of the titan you had incapacitated. And this text would not simply be a random selection, but rather a progression of (hidden) targets, in common for all the players fighting that titan.


 
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Nekops
 Tuesday, May 01 2012 @ 07:24 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine



Allow critical hits.

That is, set it up so that with every blow, everyone, from the rawest rookie all the way up to Jakell, has a small but measurable chance of hitting a vital spot on the Titan and making an Instant Kill, which would gain them the entire (remaining) reward.

It may seem counter-intuitive that making Titans easier to kill would make them more exciting, but think about it: Little would change for big hitters trained at Tynan's and loaded up with buffs from all the pubs; they can usually wipe a Titan out in a few minutes anyway, which... as you say, HM, is rather discouraging for others to witness. What this would be is a lottery-style equalizer, so that all the other players would also have a chance of hitting a big jackpot.

Right now, new players usually try fighting a titan once. It's an interesting novelty. Then they get their reward of 1 or 5 req, and decide, quite reasonably, that it's not worth the effort. I think we'd see a lot more mid- and low-DK players trying their luck if there was some luck involved.



Well, for me, the issue isn't the paltry reward... it's the fact that a Titan is this big monumental thing that I can chip away at all day and not have a hope of stopping... especially with my Force Generator failing me with those ridiculous bounce-backs. Either one of the big hitters is going to kill that Titan or they aren't, but my total contribution to the safety of, say, Cyber City 404 can't possibly matter... it's an extra round of combat for the big hitter, if that. Lowering the threat level somewhere is a much better use of my time, not to mention that it gets me more money and is less likely to kill me. The crits make a lot of sense, I think.

It seems to me that the original solution proposed approaches the problem from the wrong direction... Titans are already ridulously huge in terms of HP, slow, and epic things that normal players don't have a chance against alone. The problem is that we've got players out there who can fell them in 2 hits where most players would need several thousand rounds and frequent trips back to town to heal and resupply. Buffing them further, so that the heavy hitters need a hundred rounds to take them out and normal characters would require millions, is not going to bring more characters into the fight... you're going to have all the same people doing it, and the same people avoiding it as do now.

What I'm saying, frankly, is that nerfing the gargleblasters and the like makes a whole lot more sense than trying to make Titans intimidating despite them.


 
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Ada
 Tuesday, May 01 2012 @ 04:58 PM UTC  
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Nekops: you might want to ditch the force generator! In most circumstances those things are a lot more death than it's worth.


I'm going to go against most people here and say that I don't think titans really need to be changed at all. (Though, a random crit for high damage sounds pretty in-keeping with the improbability aspect of the game, and I think it could be fun.) People are bringing up that it's hard for newbies to fight titans - well, shouldn't it be? They're huge and scary, and a new player... just got dropped out of a plane naked. This game has absolutely no concept of an "endgame" - you DK and you DK and you DK and... nothing. Titans are the one thing in the game that you actually need to get better to fight effectively, and I think that's what they should be. When I didn't like my titan damage, I went and DKed up to DK 100 so that it would get better. Jakell went and got a bazillion hp so he could kill titans.

Basically what I'm saying is that the game doesn't give you anything to do other than what you've always done, even if you get 100 or 200 DKs. Is it really so bad that titans give high-DK players something to do?
(Really, it's not that hard to catch up with a 100DK player, if that's your priority. You don't have to be a no-lifer, camp spawns, or look for parties, and you don't need friends or money. You just need to go into the jungle and hit T then D a whole bunch of times. All it takes is persistence. And the ability to not get bored easily.)


 
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Nekops
 Wednesday, May 02 2012 @ 01:08 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada

Nekops: you might want to ditch the force generator! In most circumstances those things are a lot more death than it's worth.



Granted, but Robot defense can be... problematic. Cat Launchers are handy and all, but I need some defense for the few things that can still survive them.

If you know of anything else that'd work better, I'd be open to suggestions. :-P


 
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Ada
 Wednesday, May 02 2012 @ 01:35 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Nekops

Quote by: Ada

Nekops: you might want to ditch the force generator! In most circumstances those things are a lot more death than it's worth.



Granted, but Robot defense can be... problematic. Cat Launchers are handy and all, but I need some defense for the few things that can still survive them.

If you know of anything else that'd work better, I'd be open to suggestions. :-P



If you're getting hit really hard, and can afford it, try a lightning suit! You win on a tie, so it's okay if the monster kills you, so long as you kill it.


 
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Nekops
 Wednesday, May 02 2012 @ 06:06 AM UTC  
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Huh. I had rejected that one out of hand, for some reason... sounds like it's worth a try, though. Thanks. Big Grin


 
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Awesome Fred
 Thursday, May 03 2012 @ 08:13 PM UTC  
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You might want to ditch the force generator! In most circumstances those things are a lot more death than it's worth.


Not if you build yourself properly for it (in terms of HP and Defense). I use the Force Generator exclusively, and the only times I die from a freak rebound nowadays is when I'm fighting Titans or once in a blue moon with Suicidal Fights. I also do almost exclusively Rank 5s, however, so that probably factors in quite differently.

It seems to me that the original solution proposed approaches the problem from the wrong direction... Titans are already ridulously huge in terms of HP, slow, and epic things that normal players don't have a chance against alone. The problem is that we've got players out there who can fell them in 2 hits where most players would need several thousand rounds and frequent trips back to town to heal and resupply. Buffing them further, so that the heavy hitters need a hundred rounds to take them out and normal characters would require millions, is not going to bring more characters into the fight... you're going to have all the same people doing it, and the same people avoiding it as do now.

What I'm saying, frankly, is that nerfing the gargleblasters and the like makes a whole lot more sense than trying to make Titans intimidating despite them.


Fully agreed. I think the game's combat balance is fundamentally broken, and that fundamental mechanic is multiplicative bonuses. If I have 100 base attack, getting a 40% drink and a 1000% drink and a 20% buff and a 10% buff and a 5% buff and a 200% buff results in me having 6403 attack. Not 1375 attack, which is way more in line with the original value of 100. Multiplication compounds the differences between a weak player and a strong player. It's at the heart of the gigantic gap.

I see what you mean about titans. Really, I do. But I don't think anything that forces people to work together is going to achieve results beyond being annoying.

We have Onslaught, which is supposed to mean that players bind together to save the outposts.
...
We have Places, which we were told would require lots of people to work together to make something.
...
We got Titans, which we were told would require a bunch of people to take down.

...

I just sincerely do not believe you can force Islanders to co-operate. We like being loners. Even when we say it would be more fun if it's collaborative, people inevitably end up doing their own thing more than they work together.


Ada, I'm glad you said it, even though I only half-agree. It's clear that all these unifying mechanics haven't been very successful, and I think it's clear that a lot of players prefer to play alone. I'm one of the players who plays alone 99.9375% of the time. But I've been trying, really, to play with other people outside of Dwelling/City-based roleplay.

I want to be able to be chat to other people while reinforcing the wall, I want to be able to chat with people when spamming fights in the jungle, I want to be able to chat with people while fighting Titans. Chatting while doing activities lets me have fun with the game while simultaneously having fun with people. THAT is what lets me collaborate with other players to do things in the game. The current "chat room" setup that's locked to each individual page means that I can't DO THINGS while I'm talking to somebody. That's why I used to play with the Global Banter open for a while, because that let me walk and talk.

I think ALL of our collaborative activities that ended up not being collaborative will get a substantial boost if we actually have the means to do so. Fighting a titan with a comrade is a silent activity. Talking to your building partner relies on them coming to the proper room when you've sent a message.

But doesn't that require an uprooting of all our current chat systems? Maybe.

I don't think it needs to be uprooted. I think we simply need the concept of Parties. I should be able to add other players to my Party. That lets there be a chat panel at the bottom of every page I load, that consistent Party Chat so that I can constantly and continuously talk to the people who are currently in my Party. We can stop the concept right there, or we can run with it and integrate that into jungle comrades or whathaveyou. I'll stop there for now.

Sticks don't work; only carrots do.


Pulling doesn't exist, it's just pushing from the other direction. Encouragement and discouragement are essentially the same.

Even if you disagree, I think it's not true that sticks haven't worked. It's that sticks haven't worked to the level of success expected or hoped for. The power players have been collaborating in the game about preparing to take down Titans, they're just not fighting together. A large amount of dwellings are Single-Player-Made, but there are plenty that are by no means a one-man project. Onslaught... onslaught. Okay, I'll give you that one.

Targeted combat... I admit I haven't been trying, at all, to solve it.


I'd like a thread (I'm in a hurry to finish this post for now) where we all mention how much we use Puzzle Combat. I'm exactly like you here, Sessine. I haven't been trying to do so at all, because they're dead by turn #2. And upping my Ranks doesn't fix that, because higher ranks don't make for longer fights, just more extreme variable fights.

Critical hits.


I'm getting super tired of "Hey, let's take an action, give it a variable chance within a set range, maybe add a chance for instant death, and call it improbable!" I'll talk more later about how I think youngsters (low-level players) should be able to have FUN with Titans rather than feel helpless. But I'll say for now that I don't think instant-kills is a good idea at all but I do think there's a little merit to "BAM! 10% health drop" but it shouldn't be outside the player's control.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Thursday, May 03 2012 @ 10:52 PM UTC  
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Awesome Fred, you made a lot of points, and I can only say meaningful things about a few of them, but I'll do it anyway.

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

It's clear that all these unifying mechanics haven't been very successful, and I think it's clear that a lot of players prefer to play alone. I'm one of the players who plays alone 99.9375% of the time. But I've been trying, really, to play with other people outside of Dwelling/City-based roleplay.


So... in the Common Ground? Here on the forums? Or was "roleplay" the operative word?

I want to be able to be chat to other people while reinforcing the wall, I want to be able to chat with people when spamming fights in the jungle, I want to be able to chat with people while fighting Titans.

For the first two, you can just duck into the Outpost and make a comment. Then duck out while the others are typing.

Chatting while doing activities lets me have fun with the game while simultaneously having fun with people. THAT is what lets me collaborate with other players to do things in the game. The current "chat room" setup that's locked to each individual page means that I can't DO THINGS while I'm talking to somebody. That's why I used to play with the Global Banter open for a while, because that let me walk and talk.

Back when Global Banter had more people in it, I guess?

I don't think it needs to be uprooted. I think we simply need the concept of Parties. I should be able to add other players to my Party. That lets there be a chat panel at the bottom of every page I load, that consistent Party Chat so that I can constantly and continuously talk to the people who are currently in my Party. We can stop the concept right there, or we can run with it and integrate that into jungle comrades or whathaveyou. I'll stop there for now.

That'd be convenient for OST, methinks. Then I could take down the metaphysical cork board. Important note: Allow players all the parties they can eat.

Pulling doesn't exist, it's just pushing from the other direction. Encouragement and discouragement are essentially the same.

Ah, my good man, it's purely psychological, but the difference does exist.

I'd like a thread (I'm in a hurry to finish this post for now) where we all mention how much we use Puzzle Combat. I'm exactly like you here, Sessine. I haven't been trying to do so at all, because they're dead by turn #2. And upping my Ranks doesn't fix that, because higher ranks don't make for longer fights, just more extreme variable fights.

Though I'm probably just an idiot who doesn't know how good I have it, I somewhat prefer enemies without targets, because then I can insult them or flail at them without the risk of getting strong-attacked. Though some enemies, like the whale, are much funnier with the targets.


 
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