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Collin-Vee
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 02:38 AM UTC (Read 10163 times)  
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Well, sometime in the long distant past of a day or two ago, I managed to get into a conversation. I'll highlight for you the bits I feel pertain to my, and my conversation partners, and others' complaints that I've found. This is me putting my foot down, not me trying to pick a fight.

I'm not attempting to insult you by the way, CMJ, I just feel that this needs to be addressed on it's own, as your responses have been... Less than hopeful. I will address a few of my own complaints, and I will also address your words, CMJ, with my own.

Me: "You either buy the best food, or it's not worth it. The best is hardly worth it, too.
There's no middle ground, just shitty food, and 'look i'm shiny, expensive, filling, and all around awesome!' food."

Conversation Partner: "Yea. I noticed this. And you have to spend two days wandering round gathering shit or OH NOES. NO FOOD FOR YOUS. Were a cafe, but fuck... yano, storing spices."

Conversation Partner: "We should be able to sell spices like we could meat, and have them have "stores" of it so that rooks wouldnt have to go to CC to get a spice for a worth while meal."

Me: "(CMJ said)... it would balance things out, it just ramped up the difficulty, (and) slapped a hunger bar on."

Conversation Partner: "Exactly."

"I mean, the nausea thing is a nice addition, the getting hungry over time is nice too, but it's the same thing but with new foods, less stamina gain, and a few shiny things."
"And frankly, unless you're a vet, stamina costs suck ass."
"Even with [Main character] at level 10 I'm struggling to get a meal or two in."
"That's while upgrading weapons, and not failboating, mind you. Yeah, that's a good idea, but seriously, the people with 100 DKs are going to have it easy, no matter what you do."
"And one meal in newhome making me fat and ugly?
Seriously?"

Conversation Partner: "Yea... Kinda ridiculous."

Me: -Complaint goes here-

Conversation Partner: "Exactly. Hes kneecapped us."

Me: "I mean, I love the new features like the pan and such, but it's near impossible to simply have a normal day of eating and fighting without being loaded on req and herbs."

Conversation Partner: "Yea. But its easy to load on herbs if you look where rooks cant get to. Which is unfair to rooks. Its CRIPPLING new players."

Me: "It's difficult for me, and I have plenty of chronos."

Conversation Partner: "Exactly. CMJ obviously spent a lot of time making something shiny and new and feel shorted we dont like it, but its all wrong.
Its the Duke Nukem Forever of updates."
"All bold ideas with lackluster follow thru."

Me: "Mhm. It just needs work."

Conversation Partner: "He needs to tweek it with input. Consider it the beta. Or do as he did with the old 'so and so is taking a breath...' update he had in story."
"Take it away and fine tune it and see if we like the fine tuning."

-------------------------------

Okay, so there's the first portion done. It's a negative review, I realize. But these are CORE things that are wrong here. Price, Stamina Gain, Access, these are all things that need to be taken into consideration. If the AVERAGE* player cannot get to these core objects, then the idea of the update being a balancing one is out the window!

Now that that's been addressed, let's move on to CMJ's.. Less than diplomatic words. Note, I'm not saying that ALL his words were harsh, but these are big things I feel must be addressed.

"No, fuck off, don't tell me what you really want, you don't have a clue, you're a human just like me and, just like me, you're shit at predicting what'll make you happy."

Okay, first, as a general rule, yes, this is true. But I've tried the system out, every grievance I have with it is through rigorous testing and well-thought out wording. The very idea that I don't know what makes me happy is ludicrous, especially when I do NOT enjoy the current system's difficulty level, which is through the roof and into I Want to be the Guy level.

"On the subject of new players - I know for a damn fact that they don't play the game the same way as veterans do, because I watch them. They use targeted fighting. They gamble intelligently. They optimize the living shit out of every single facet of the game. The auto-fight buttons gather dust. The Rookies will be just fine."

Like bloody hell they will! I invited a close friend of mine in recently to give me a sober second thought. He tried out the food system, got to level ten, and told me it was too hard, and too much work to even try. Roleplaying aside, which I didn't ask his opinion about, and assume he's gone at this point. But, he told me he used all the features, including the Timed Combat he received, and still only managed to get one or two meals in, in the entirety of the time he played. Not only does this discourage new players, but it's too extreme of a system to give you, CMJ, the difficulty and variety that you wish, along with the enjoyment of the users. Sure, you'll retain your player base, but this is the sort of things that skews people's views of you, especially when you insinuate that we know nothing about ourselves and those we interact with.

I know that you know what you're doing, Joe, but please, don't cast our complaints away like this. The problems we present are grounded in fact. We can't have a decent eating day each day**. We, the average player***, don't have the stamina to run around collecting the herbs needed without careful planning, which the reasoning behind is flawed in. The food gains are unbalanced to the point where one moderate meal gains you maybe one or two actions you aren't hella-trained in, they fatten you much too quickly to eat even two semi-fattening meals a day. Lastly, your attitude towards all of this is rather disturbing to me.

I enjoy the new features such as the pan, spices, new restaurants and food, but your 'balancing' seems to have been taking an axe to stamina gains, increasing mass and fat levels, slapping a hunger bar on****, and releasing. I'm not doubting it was hell to code and was a lot of work, but that's no excuse for a lackluster product. I'd be ashamed to have such a skewed product out on the market if it were my job.

-------------------------------

Since you read through that essay of a post, I'd like to say one last thing. I'm not angry at CMJ. I still love the bastard for the game he's given us. But my problem is with his attitude as of late, and the unbalanced gameplay mechanics he's added. I love the slight randomness given in the restaurant's menus, and I love the new food and herbs, but the core values need to be re-evaluated with an air of understanding. Feedback is EVERYTHING when you release something. You don't treat your customers like they don't know anything about what they're saying -- they're the ones you want to please.

-------------------------------

*Not to mention, the newbies.
** Or even every other/three days.
*** Again, not to mention the newbs.
**** Though, I'm loving the nausea feature. Adds an air of risk to this all.


 
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Collin-Vee
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 02:39 AM UTC  
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To lighten the mood:

EDIT: God Dammit, internet!


 
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Mogar
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 06:22 AM UTC  
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Personally, Mogar is a high-roller right now. He's rich as shit, usually living off interest. Well, less so when playing rank 7, and really playing. After I finish a lot of my writing and editing for my place, I'll be going back to the jungle fighting DK's instead of this one really long, drawn-out Rank 6. Then I'll certainly have a more real-game view of the food system. Currently I love a lot of aspects about it, especially the randomness and the new restaurants, items, and descriptions, along with the herbs and hunger bar, but I would like to see 1 majorish change.

1) As Collin has said, the core values of the foods are a little off. I feel like most meals require way more req than they're worth, and don't give enough Stamina. I think if these values were changed, the mass of the foods wouldn't be a problem. I think they're a good filling-ness, but do not give enough Stamina, and cost too much. Even if prices remain, I'd like for things to give more stamina.

Anecdotally: if I wake up in the morning at 100%, I'm going to need the energy of a full-Scottish Breakfast to comfortably go for a high-intensity, 2+ hour bike ride before having a small lunch. If I split up my food between a smaller breakfast like an omelet sandwich, a trail bar, and a large lunch, that works too. It's hard to quantify this. I feel like a mutant steak would do the trick, but to do the ride, I'd need 150% stamina to not be wiped for the day...? 30% is a bit low for steak in my opinion. I use steak as a benchmark, since it used to be the bobm-diggity. Also, if any food gives more energy, I'd think it should be NewHome's at least, if not everywhere.

~Mogar

Aside: Unfortunately, I can't comment on fat---Mogar is a Joker. I also can't comment on the cooking system---I haven't been jungle fighting much during this very long DK during which I'm more focused on building.


 
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Iriana
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 08:12 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Collin-Vee

Now that that's been addressed, let's move on to CMJ's.. Less than diplomatic words. Note, I'm not saying that ALL his words were harsh, but these are big things I feel must be addressed.

"No, fuck off, don't tell me what you really want, you don't have a clue, you're a human just like me and, just like me, you're shit at predicting what'll make you happy."

Okay, first, as a general rule, yes, this is true. But I've tried the system out, every grievance I have with it is through rigorous testing and well-thought out wording. ...


I haven't played with the new system enough to really contribute anything in the way of critique, but I read the same post of CMJ's as you did and I think that particular comment isn't something you should take at face value. If you look a few lines up and read it all in context, I think he's referring to the way that people sometimes say they want something when they don't really want it--for example, "This game is too easy, make it harder" and when it becomes harder, "Now it's so hard to do anything the old way, change it back".

Thus far, I have been consistently impressed with the consideration CMJ gives to the things his players say (because quite honestly, how many other game authors give a crap about you?), and I don't think he's suddenly decided to be a total jerk now. I'm sorry if I'm speaking for anyone here, but I really do think he's reading these forum threads and working on ways to make his system better. Most if not all of your issues have already come up in the other thread, so never fear.


 
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Maniak
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 10:48 AM UTC  
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All the food in NewHome made you fat and ugly even before Joe changed the grease in his deep-fat fryer, so there's no difference there.

Go back to your first days as a rookie. You were either fat or starving until you learned that steaks were the very best thing to eat. You didn't figure out what was best to eat on your own, you waited until someone told you. The new system has more options, there's simply more to eat. It'll last a bit longer before we find out what the new equivalent of 10 noodly noodles + 1 mutant steak is. So sit back, and maybe help by filling out the numbercrunching spreadsheet.

Regarding the new hunger bar, you always had it. It just wasn't visible and played a more marginal role, but it was always there.

I have a question for you, Collin-Vee. You're posting the opinion of an anonymous conversation partner and lead me to believe that the opinions expressed aren't your own. What's your real gripe? That community feedback (often self-conflicting) isn't implemented immediately? Of course not! Advice needs to be carefully considered, not blindly followed. That there aren't visible changes? Of course not, tweaks are mostly behind the scenes.

It's good that the system is allowed to run its course before big changes are made.

And let's be honest here, the old system sucked. Rookies were starving because not even cooking was a good idea. At least now it's a somewhat viable alternative again.


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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 11:45 AM UTC  
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Thank you, Maniak. You saved me another round of ranting. I'm still shaking my head at "Every grievance I have is from rigorous testing," which is just plain wrong. Rigorous testing involves much more than two people using the completely new system over the course of just one week.

Colin, there's no attitude change with CMJ. It's a staple of game design that players don't know what they want, just what they think they want. It's a common thing about player psychology. You'd be surprised at what you'd like if you give it a chance.


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 02:50 PM UTC  
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Anyone who thinks that humans are good at predicting what will make them happy needs to read professional psychologist Daniel Gilbert's book, Stumbling On Happiness. We are horrible at it, all of us, because of how our brains work. For right now, there's a quick summary here.*

I've hung around this game long enough to know that our players are not superhuman exceptions. (I'm certainly not!) This is not to say that every idea CMJ has had, has always been a good one. Game design is hard, precisely because it involves predicting what will make other people happy. But on average, he's been doing a hell of a good job. Remember the introduction of Banter? (If you don't, look back in the Enquirer to read the howl that went up then!) Sometimes it can take six months for people to realize that, hey, the disasters they were worrying about didn't happen -- or didn't turn out to be that bad after all -- and... hey, this part I thought was going to be awful is, um, shuffle... turning out to be kinda fun.

Simplicity is, sooner or later, boring; complexity is interesting. We now have a whole new factor adding texture and complexity to the game. Maybe there are parts of it that do need to be tweaked, but we won't be able to say anything useful about what those are, until we've explored it for a good while. How long? Well, dunno, but for sure it'll take longer than a week!
--
* But really, you should all search it out and read it -- it's far more interesting than that summary makes it sound. It's not only explaining something you should know about yourself, it's laugh-out-loud funny!


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 03:18 PM UTC  
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Yes prices are too high To buy food for newbies whom have a hard enough time getting money because they are still learning the system and are having a hard enough time still gaining gear.

The solution is simple. You are not going to be able to go eat out for a bit effectively, grab your frying pan and cook damnit. Read the guides on what monsters will give you good food and go for mostly tasty meat with a dash of decent meat. CMJ worked hard to try to get us to cook for ourselves more, and I think setting the prices high was his way of trying to help encourage us stubborn masses to try to cook more and be more self sustaining, just needing to go out to eat for just say a pick me up. I do wish meat would have a bit of a longer keep time, it would help so you are say prepared with some bacon from the ham tree the day before.. say a limited space cooler/foodpack so these herbs and food stop taking up space in my backpack...


 
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Collin-Vee
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 05:45 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

It's a staple of game design that players don't know what they want, just what they think they want. It's a common thing about player psychology. You'd be surprised at what you'd like if you give it a chance.



This, I know, but I don't need to be some grand exception to understand that this system is unbelievably unbalanced and difficult.


Quote by: Maniak

All the food in NewHome made you fat and ugly even before Joe changed the grease in his deep-fat fryer, so there's no difference there.



Yes, but now a single food in Joe's makes you fat and ugly. That's like saying a single cheeseburger in real life will make you obese!


Quote by: Maniak

It'll last a bit longer before we find out what the new equivalent of 10 noodly noodles + 1 mutant steak is.



I'm not looking for 10 noodles + steak, I'm only looking to the fact that it's impossible to get to the good food regularly, and the inbetween food isn't anywhere near close enough to good enough to fill the gap.


Quote by: Maniak

Regarding the new hunger bar, you always had it. It just wasn't visible and played a more marginal role, but it was always there.



Er, I know that.


Quote by: Maniak

And let's be honest here, the old system sucked. Rookies were starving because not even cooking was a good idea. At least now it's a somewhat viable alternative again.



Yes, I realise. I like the fact that it's changing, it's just the way they've changed so far, barring any comparison to the old one, is simply too dificult to use casually. You have to have those spreadsheets and req-gain schemes to be able to eat well, instead of grabbing a quick steak at Kittania so you can make it to AceHigh for that Storything you want to do.


Quote by: LydiaDefountain

I think setting the prices high was his way of trying to help encourage us stubborn masses to try to cook more and be more self sustaining, just needing to go out to eat for just say a pick me up.



This isn't encouraging, this is almost outright making the restaurant food system inaccessible, and not even an option unless you're filthy rich.


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hey, this part I thought was going to be awful is, um, shuffle... turning out to be kinda fun.



http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=6082076


Quote by: Count+Sessine

Simplicity is, sooner or later, boring; complexity is interesting. We now have a whole new factor adding texture and complexity to the game.



It's not the addition of the factors that I'm having a problem with, it's the fact that it's all but removed any sort of restaurant-eating to a non-option due to how expensive or how low the stamina gain is.


Quote by: Awesome+Fred

You'd be surprised at what you'd like if you give it a chance.



For the last time. I LIKE the changes, what I do not like, is the VALUES assigned to these changes. I give EVERYTHING a fair swing at things, and my impressions are not based on a knee-jerk reaction, but the actual values on the food most available to people.

------------------------------------------------------------

One last thing. I'm not expecting instant change, I know these things take time, I just feel these issues should not be pushed to the side because


 
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Matthew
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 05:54 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak

It'll last a bit longer before we find out what the new equivalent of 10 noodly noodles + 1 mutant steak is.



Yeah! Except for the part where it took us like half a day to find out something even better.

See, with the food system, I like the framework. The hunger bar is great, what with being able to see how hungry you are and how you get more hungry as the day goes by. I like how we can see mass/fat/etc on the menu. I like the randomization. The problem is balance.

1. Pleasantville still has the best food.
2. Kittania still has the second-best food.
3. everywhere else has food that's shit and not worth it. (200 req for 1.3% stamina or whatever? fuck off, why bother)

Gosh, it's almost like nothing is different!

See, when CMJ first wrote the MotD that I quoted in the first post of my thread, I had envisioned a system in which all restaurants had good food (perhaps old-pleasantville level or a little less, I dunno) except with randomized availability on a given game day to encourage movement. I was so on board with that. Except now we have what's pretty much the same system, now with 150% more frustrating slot-machine bullshit and an herb thing that feels so hilariously out-of-place it's unreal. I'm still doing most of my jungle fighting in PV, which I'm guessing was pretty much the exact opposite of the point.

That said, I should say that I love the writing. The Wacky Faktory is fucking hilarious. I don't even mind the herbs that much. The two big problems, for me, is that 1. it's way too expensive if you're not a veteran 2. it's balanced pretty terribly.


 
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Harris
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 07:49 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Collin-Vee

Yes, but now a single food in Joe's makes you fat and ugly. That's like saying a single cheeseburger in real life will make you obese!



First, this is not real life- it is fiction. Bad comparison. Second, yes, Joe's has more potential to make you fat if you eat too much of the fatty food, but has much bigger stamina bonuses for that fat risk now. Third, you're ignoring cooking. Eating only at restaurants making you too fat, and costing you more than you want to spend? Then clean your kills and cook them, and supplement that with a restaurant meal or two (maybe three, depending). Boom, problem solved!


Quote by: Collin-Vee

I'm not looking for 10 noodles + steak, I'm only looking to the fact that it's impossible to get to the good food regularly, and the inbetween food isn't anywhere near close enough to good enough to fill the gap.



Impossible to get the good food regularly? That was wrong when Matthew said it, and you're wrong here. Even the lowly Humans can do it. Sell three free grenades three gamedays in a row, and you can afford the best Joe's has to offer, and have a little left over.
They don't even need to leave the outpost to get that stam bonus.

And what gap, specifically?


Quote by: Collin-Vee


I like the fact that it's changing, it's just the way they've changed so far, barring any comparison to the old one, is simply too dificult to use casually. You have to have those spreadsheets and req-gain schemes to be able to eat well, instead of grabbing a quick steak at Kittania so you can make it to AceHigh for that Storything you want to do.



Oh? Then the highly public increased req payouts listings in the Council Offices, being able to devour carcasses (no stamina spent on cleaning!) as a Zombie, and hell, standard jungle fighting don't give you enough req for food/food in and of themselves/ stamina to get from one outpost to another, maybe even to a third?

Those aren't even schemes. They're game features available to everyone (...and anyone who chooses Zombie).

And no, you don't need spreadsheets. I use no such thing other than the pictures in the restaurants themselves, and all it took me was playing for a few days until I figured out exactly what each meter represented.

Simplicity is, sooner or later, boring; complexity is interesting. We now have a whole new factor adding texture and complexity to the game.[/p][/QUOTE]

Quote by: Collin-Vee

It's not the addition of the factors that I'm having a problem with, it's the fact that it's all but removed any sort of restaurant-eating to a non-option due to how expensive or how low the stamina gain is.



You're tossing around a lot of unsubstantiated opinions in here, like this one. Consequently, it sounds more and more like the change itself has pissed you off.


Quote by: Awesome+Fred

You'd be surprised at what you'd like if you give it a chance.



Quote by: Collin-Vee

For the last time. I LIKE the changes, what I do not like, is the VALUES assigned to these changes. I give EVERYTHING a fair swing at things, and my impressions are not based on a knee-jerk reaction, but the actual values on the food most available to people.



You misunderstood Fred, there. He was talking about video game players in general not liking change initially, but learning to accept and enjoy it after awhile.

You say your impressions aren't knee-jerk, but the system is only days old, and yet again, you are citing how much things cost, and not at all how much req people can pull in to pay those costs by comparison. It sounds knee-jerk.


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
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Harris
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 07:53 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Matthew

Quote by: Maniak

It'll last a bit longer before we find out what the new equivalent of 10 noodly noodles + 1 mutant steak is.



Yeah! Except for the part where it took us like half a day to find out something even better.

See, with the food system, I like the framework. The hunger bar is great, what with being able to see how hungry you are and how you get more hungry as the day goes by. I like how we can see mass/fat/etc on the menu. I like the randomization. The problem is balance.

1. Pleasantville still has the best food.
2. Kittania still has the second-best food.
3. everywhere else has food that's shit and not worth it. (200 req for 1.3% stamina or whatever? fuck off, why bother)

Gosh, it's almost like nothing is different!



Sarcasm is only useful in comedy and picking fights, Matt. And this really doesn't sound funny. It just sounds angry, especially with everything you've already said in the main thread.


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
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Collin-Vee
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 08:12 PM UTC  
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Sarcasm is only useful in comedy and picking fights, Matt. And this really doesn't sound funny. It just sounds angry, especially with everything you've already said in the main thread.



Honestly, I think it's more annoyed than angry. This was insinuated to be a BALANCING update, and really all we've gotten are a few bells and whistles, a useful feature here and there, now food, and increased costs along with reduced gains.


 
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Matthew
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 08:28 PM UTC  
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^ You got it. It's not supposed to be funny.
Here, have another .gif.


 
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Matthew
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 08:58 PM UTC  
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Can't edit my post:

Quote by: Harris

Impossible to get the good food regularly? That was wrong when Matthew said it, and you're wrong here. Even the lowly Humans can do it. Sell three free grenades three gamedays in a row, and you can afford the best Joe's has to offer, and have a little left over.
They don't even need to leave the outpost to get that stam bonus.


But that's wrong. "Religiously scrounge every penny for half an ingame week and you can afford ONE CHEESEBURGER!" or whatever it is, who cares. And the stam bonus you're getting for that is good for like ten fights, with rookie hunting costs.

Might as well just buy ration packs.


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 09:41 PM UTC  
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Um, okay... cool it, guys. Complain unhelpfully if you want, but the Enquirer is also on CMJ's server. Rule One still applies. Y'wanna break it, there's a whole big internet out there.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 10:13 PM UTC  
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The temperature's rising a bit here. This could be interpreted as a measure of how passionate people can get about this game - which is no bad thing in itself, but still, perhaps a little misplaced.

As one of the instigators by beefing prematurely about the new system, I feel at least partly responsible. Oops! There are fair points being made on all sides, but they're being obscured by sarcasm and sanctimoniousness and all sorts of other things as well. May I suggest to everybody that before we post, we repeat the mantra "I am an idiot. Just like everyone else." ten times?

Now. For what it's worth (not much). My current assessment, based on woefully inadequate evidence, is this. If you want to eat regularly, then clean your kills and eat those. Treat restaurant food as a luxury thing now, rather than an everyday thing. A bonus on top of what it used to be like when there weren't any restaurants at all.

I myself do nothing of the sort. I'm a builder* who has little interest in game play except in-so-far as it affects me in my building. I avoid DKing and have a bank account that gives me an average of 3000 req interest a day. I have to work a bit harder at stamina now than I did recently. That's cool. I can still get there, and it is a bit more flexible.

Finally, as regards CMJ's "less than diplomatic words" Well by George, I was a less than diplomatic tosser who came out with carping criticism within a few days, and by Great Caesar's Ghost, that was without so much as three letters of anything positive, or even a thank-you. So by the Scarlet Underwear of Manfred von Richthofen, I bloody well deserved worse. Nuff said.


----

*And occasional role player, I've really got to get back into that again.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, August 21 2012 @ 10:52 PM UTC  
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I picked the fight, so I'm the one to blame for the heat, guys. The main beef that's been roasting in this thread while I was at work seems to be focused particularly on the new state of costs rather than the complexity of the mechanics, so I'll make a focus on that subject instead for my next post in this thread. It'll have to wait, though, I've got plenty on my plate to finish first.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Wednesday, August 22 2012 @ 12:33 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Collin-Vee
We, the average player***, don't have the stamina to run around collecting the herbs needed without careful planning, which the reasoning behind is flawed in.

Why, it seems CMJ did make that "encourage people to shuffle about" thing everyone's been asking for! Also, every time you say "we, the average player", I'm going to mentally substitute in "we, the proletariat" and pretend you're a revolutionary. Just sayin'.

Quote by: LydiaDefountain
I do wish meat would have a bit of a longer keep time, it would help so you are say prepared with some bacon from the ham tree the day before.. say a limited space cooler/foodpack so these herbs and food stop taking up space in my backpack...


You know what I think would be cool? Curing meats. Possibly with spices. It might throw everything out of whack, but, hey, I'd be able to magically preserve meat!

Alright, forum-goers. Everyone here is missing the big question: What the heck is with food threads and animated gifs? Will they be forever linked? More at eleven.


 
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Harris
 Wednesday, August 22 2012 @ 03:59 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 456

HM, you instigated, then made all proper amends, and then some.
Fred, you said nothing that didn't need to be said.
FML.. thank you.


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
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