Enquirer Home Page | Twitter | Back to Improbable Island

 Forum Index > Season Two > Feature Requests, Ideas and Feedback New Topic Post Reply
 "Midget"
 |  Printable Version
Matthew
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 07:30 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 578



Anyhow this is getting pretty off topic. So I guess this is my opinion: Midget's not worth saving, get rid of it.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Count Sessine
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 07:38 AM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 1402

Quote by: Matthew

So I guess this is my opinion: Midget's not worth saving, get rid of it.




Tell that to Big Su, Matthew.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Waverly
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 07:45 AM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 08/26/10
Posts: 48

You Tommy Lee Jones'd me? Don't make me come out there

(okay, I'm sorry, enough with the off topic I just had to)


.
 
Profile Email
Quote
Wongo the Sane
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 11:23 AM UTC  
Forum Badass
Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 104

I don't know if it has much bearing on the discussion anymore, but 'Squats' used to* be a race in Warhammer 40,000. They were basically Space Dwarves.

*Used to because GW had the entire race eaten by Tyranids. Not because of offending people but because they couldn't think of a way to make them cool, apparently.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Laser Towel
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 12:01 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 04/26/11
Posts: 37

Obviously this is a problem because midgets are people and chavs are not.

My point is that if it was fine several years ago then it's fine now. It's not intentionally singling anyone out for verbal abuse, it's no different than telling off-colour jokes, which virtually everyone does, and people will never stop doing so.

There is a fine line between willfully and intentionally singling out a group of people to ostracise, and creating a group of comically offensive individuals that happen to bear (in Hairy Mary's own words) "superficial similarities" to real-world groups or individuals, with no ill will intended.

You can't please everyone, and that's exactly what PC (ostensibly) strives to do, yet fails so spectacularly at. It's an inherent flaw to political correctness - it neglects literally everyone but the groups it targets.

I had an entirely different post to begin with, but it was very much anger-fueled and it probably would have been quite unwise to post that version, so. :I


Dent
 
Profile Email
Quote
Full Metal Lion
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 01:53 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 12/19/11
Posts: 437

I'd like to step in at this point to remind everyone that if we change the race of Midget too much, we will destroy one of the most beautiful thematic elements of Improbable Island, The Fantasy Race Joke. As I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere in the discussion of Midgets, I'm going to be a little presumptuous and explain it here. Unfortunately, The Fantasy Race Joke is far funnier if you discover it on your own, but.. oh well, what can you do? Confused

Cast your minds' eyes towards... pretty much all the fantasy written since Tolkien. What are the three most prominent races in those works? Humans, elves, and dwarfs, right? Now, think about the Island. What are the three most prominent races there? Well, in terms of proximity to Improbable Central (forming a nice triangle), the amount of flavor text devoted to them (before the plot about Rohit), and (almost) in the least number of DKs to unlock,* they are Humans, Kittymorphs, and Midgets. The Fantasy Race Joke is, of course, that the human/elf/dwarf combo is both tired and ridiculous, and, thus, Humans/Kittymorphs/Midgets are a mockery of each race, respectively.

Humans are, of course, perfectly analogous to humans. Jacks-of-all-Trades, Homo sapiens, etc. Not much more needs to be said on the subject.

Kittymorphs are analogous to elves. Elves are generally lithe, attractive, Mary-Sue-esque characters who are "at one with nature" or "extremely wise" or something similar. Kittymorphs are the lithe, attractive, Mary-Sue-esque race, but were made to be humorously stupid and lazy, and "at one with nature" only until they get hungry. They are quite like the cats they are mixed with : they look dignified and elegant on the surface, but I have gifs to prove otherwise.

Midgets, of primary concern in this discussion, are analogous to dwarves. Dwarves are an odd concept for a race, as they are referred to by the same term for a normal human suffering from dwarfism**. They are essentially a race of hairy and cantankerous people who are grouped together by their lack of height. Improbable Island makes fun of this by having a race referred to by the same term for a normal human suffering from dwarfism, and making them all chavs. Hairy, cantankerous, chavs.

(I admit, though, that this may be unintentional, and one of those flukes where, when one looks enough, there are patterns everywhere. If that's true, then I hope CMJ, who seems to be reading this thread, will mention it before I make even more of an ass of myself.)

In conclusion, Humans/Kittymorphs/Midgets are humans/elves/dwarves presented in a fresh, irreverent way. I find that pleasing and satisfying, and I hope I've explained the parallels well enough that it pleases you, too, and we would both be distraught if it ceased to be. Perhaps any little people, if they feel offended that Improbable Island is giving traits to a group based on height, can read this post and be assured that Improbable Island is making fun of the tendency of other fantasy writers to do that very same thing. Now, this post has taken far longer to write than it should have, so, if you'll excuse me, I must go to sleep.

*In Season Three, I imagine Midgets will replace Zombies in terms of DKs-to-unlock, both to strengthen The Fantasy Race Joke and to replace the then-extinct Zombies.
**My research tells me that the term for mythical creatures came first. This has no bearing on my point, but it is a fun fact.


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Count Sessine
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 02:49 PM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 1402

Quote by: Laser+Towel

Obviously this is a problem because midgets are people and chavs are not. (Emphasis added.)

Er. Chavs are, in fact, people. It's a Brit term for a particular type of loutish lowest-class youths.

Someone quoted a comedian earlier in the thread to the effect that it's okay to make fun of people for what they do. It's not okay to make fun of them for what they are.

I think that's a good place to draw the line. Chav can be used as shorthand here, while we're discussing the issue, for a certain highly unattractive pattern of behaviour (crude, filthy, unlettered, violent, foul-mouthed, stealing everything that's not nailed down, etc.) which is a legitimate target for humour, but chav is also a contemptuous class-based slur against very poor youths with no prospect of a life. You could probably find some lower-middle-class Brits who would almost-seriously maintain that they aren't people.

CMJ has already said it's not a question of if but when. His Island, his taste. He gets to reword a joke he now regrets. What we're discussing now is how.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Twosocks Monkey
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 03:11 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 01/28/11
Posts: 246

Quote by: Harris

1)Incorporating HM's Midget culture into canon. -That is Very distinct from ANY average folk (of any height).
C'monnn.... it's not like there's much in-canon about Midget society as it is!

Seconded!

At the risk of being laughed out of the room, is it worth thinking about keeping Midgets, (Like CMJ said, Taller Chavs), and just giving Squathole more variety?

The zombies are all dead, but they're not all funny or mean or dirty or whatever. They're just dead.

In fact, though all the races have suggestions as to how to play them (Kittymorphs lazy, Jokers wild, Robots impassive, etc) the Midgets seem the most strictly identified by their race/disposition.

If the issue is having a short race, I guess my point is moot.

If the issue is having a short race that is defined by specific possibly hurtful and stereotypically unpleasant behavior, what if we just expanded what a Midget is?

I've been thinking about this A LOT, and honestly the first analogy that came to mind is Port Foley.

Gross, disgusting, flavorful, has ALL TYPES.

So what if Squathole, say, expanded? Not to replace Port Foley, but a similar take on the idea. We can even keep the island lore of what Squat was, but say it drew enough people to it that we could no longer definitively consider it about height.

What if we discover that the Chav can infect ANYONE?

Keep the skronky pot, keep the newly incorporated history of Squat (always loved Hairy Mary's take on it) but EXPAND it.

So we still basically have Midgets, but the race definitions just apply to a wider variety of shapes.

Thoughts?

PS: This idea came from me pondering what I love about Squathole, and honestly I love love love having the characters who embrace it around. I love the dirty, the foul, the reveling in all that is mucky and outlaw and disgusting. Like FML said, the idea has a direct line to poking fun at fictional history. I LIKE POKING FUN!!!!

PPS: The thought occurred to me that this might promote more dickish behavior, but as has been stated by someone else (Sessine?) we have Port Foley and PRAT and Whistle and they manage to draw the line between running a dickish character AND NOT BEING A DICK AT ALL. So yeah, I think we've already proven it's possible, and totally sustainable.

-Rose


moooooooooo Visit and help me finish the monster list: goo.gl/rpBGe (Ya'll mostly know me as CLOG, fyi)
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Laser Towel
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 03:13 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 04/26/11
Posts: 37

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: Laser+Towel

Obviously this is a problem because midgets are people and chavs are not. (Emphasis added.)

Er. Chavs are, in fact, people. It's a Brit term for a particular type of loutish lowest-class youths.



I'm well aware. Apparently sarcasm doesn't translate well into text.

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Chav can be used as shorthand here, while we're discussing the issue, for a certain highly unattractive pattern of behaviour (crude, filthy, unlettered, violent, foul-mouthed, stealing everything that's not nailed down, etc.) which is a legitimate target for humour, but chav is also a contemptuous class-based slur against very poor youths with no prospect of a life. You could probably find some lower-middle-class Brits who would almost-seriously maintain that they aren't people.



That pretty much proves my point.


Dent
 
Profile Email
Quote
Hairy Mary
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 03:33 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 1083

Quote by: Harris

2)Making them taller, but keeping them very short (say... no more'n 5'2" as a capper?)


I'm about 5'1" WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY HERE????

Quote by: Harris

1)Incorporating HM's Midget culture into canon.



Ahh shucks, you've redeemed yourself.

Quote by: Matthew

But that's the point. You're taking a pretty hilarious character concept and saying "the entire race is like this" which is both completely unrealistic and completely dull.



You are joking here aren't you? Do you even RP to be able to say something like that? The range and depth that you can put into midgets is a much as it is for humans. You just then put a midget slant on it. There's been no suggestion in this thread that will affect that in the slightest.



Quote by: Count+Sessine

...I dunno. I'm all right with 'arsehole' being part of the average racial temperament for comic effect, but I'd really rather not see it enshrined as the actual race name. ... first, we would need to explain to a lot of players forever afterwards the fine linguistic distinction between being an Arsehole and being a Dick. This would be difficult, since I'm not all that sure myself that there is one!



Yup. Arsehole and Dick are pretty much synonymous. In fact I would say that the midgets as I play them are, in fact dicks/arseholes. Come to that, so is RP Whistle...the character. But certainly not RP Whistle the player. And, I like to think, not myself either.

That's the distinction to draw. You can play characters that are dicks, just don't impose it on other players. If you want to interact with them, then make sure that they're cool with what you're going to do first, and don't be afraid to be on the losing end occasionally/frequently/constantly.


Quote by: Laser+Towel

Obviously this is a problem because midgets are people and chavs are not.

My point is that if it was fine several years ago then it's fine now. It's not intentionally singling anyone out for verbal abuse, it's no different than telling off-colour jokes, which virtually everyone does, and people will never stop doing so.

There is a fine line between willfully and intentionally singling out a group of people to ostracise, and creating a group of comically offensive individuals that happen to bear (in Hairy Mary's own words) "superficial similarities" to real-world groups or individuals, with no ill will intended.

You can't please everyone, and that's exactly what PC (ostensibly) strives to do, yet fails so spectacularly at. It's an inherent flaw to political correctness - it neglects literally everyone but the groups it targets.

I had an entirely different post to begin with, but it was very much anger-fueled and it probably would have been quite unwise to post that version, so. :I



Laser Towel, you really didn't think long enough before posting this, did you now. No it was a mistake several years ago and it's certainly not fine now.

There is an even finer line between willfully and intentionally singling out a group of people to ostracise, and creating a group of comically offensive individuals, with no ill will intended, but knowing damn well that you're being pretty offensive. In fact I'd go so far as to say that there's no line at all.

PC, in essence, tries not to be a dick. Doesn't always succeed, but in general it's not bad. Frankly your argument sounds uncannily like somebody who wants to be a dick without it being pointed out to them. Grow up. Take responsibility for your own behaviour. You're not special, and thinking that you can hand shit out but then whining because somebody else doesn't just go along with everything you want is crap. It really is. Please pull your head out of your fundament.

~~~~~

For what it's worth, my take on midgets. As a first approximation I see then as behaving like a bunch of five year olds, but without any parental guidance or adult supervision whatsoever. Sort of like a more realistic version of Neverland. That's only a first approximation, obviously. There's also the way that they're all thick as two short planks, but more importantly, all think that they're really, really clever.

I could bang on about midgets for some while, I've spent far longer thinking about them than could possibly be good for anybody's mental health. But that's the core of it.

And lastly: FML: I'd always seen the midgets as more analogous to hobbits. Recall that the worlds first introduction to hobbits was a thief - Bilbo Baggins. But yes, I'd always thought that about the fantasy race joke as well. You'll note that in Onslaught situations that kittymorphs fight with bow and arrows.

And I believe that dwarves, alongside elves, goblins, trolls, fairies, pixies, gnolls and sprites have been names for "the little people" in various parts of Europe for centuries. It was Tolkien that appropriated the words to what we think of today. But not orcs. They were originally dirty great sea monsters. I'm pretty sure anyway. I'd check that before you gamble large sums on it though.


 
Profile Email
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 03:52 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Quote by: Count+Sessine

I think that's a good place to draw the line. Chav can be used as shorthand here, while we're discussing the issue, for a certain highly unattractive pattern of behaviour (crude, filthy, unlettered, violent, foul-mouthed, stealing everything that's not nailed down, etc.) which is a legitimate target for humour, but chav is also a contemptuous class-based slur against very poor youths with no prospect of a life. You could probably find some lower-middle-class Brits who would almost-seriously maintain that they aren't people.



OH NO NO NO NO NIPPING THIS IN THE BUD RIGHT NOW. This was bound to come up at some point, given how many American and Canadian players we have these days. Razz

"Chav" is not a slur against the working class. A lot of people overseas think that it is - and some comfortably-middle-class British newspaper journalist types think the same thing, while writing hand-wringing editorials about class warfare. Basically, anyone who hasn't grown up around a load of chavs thinks that "Chav" is a class thing - it isn't. "Chav" is a slur against antisocial, violent, alcoholic arseholes who are, yes, often working-class, but "Chav" can be applied equally well to middle-class dickheads in those ridiculous blue Subarus.

"Chav" is a label applied to nobheads who exhibit a certain type of behaviour, not to a social or economic class - those who argue that it's a slur against the working class (or, worse, use the term itself as a slur against the working class, further eroding its meaning) always do so from a position of privilege or from a position of not being British and hence not having any experience of chavs. To infer that "Chav" is a slur against the working class is to lump the working class in with chavs, and that pisses off the working class. Razz


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 03:59 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

I'd like to step in at this point to remind everyone that if we change the race of Midget too much, we will destroy one of the most beautiful thematic elements of Improbable Island, The Fantasy Race Joke. As I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere in the discussion of Midgets, I'm going to be a little presumptuous and explain it here. Unfortunately, The Fantasy Race Joke is far funnier if you discover it on your own, but.. oh well, what can you do? Confused

Cast your minds' eyes towards... pretty much all the fantasy written since Tolkien. What are the three most prominent races in those works? Humans, elves, and dwarfs, right? Now, think about the Island. What are the three most prominent races there?

...Kittymorphs are the lithe, attractive, Mary-Sue-esque race, but were made to be humorously stupid and lazy, and "at one with nature" only until they get hungry. They are quite like the cats they are mixed with : they look dignified and elegant on the surface, but I have gifs to prove otherwise.



Guys I love it when you get my jokes five years after I make them Mr. Green


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 04:03 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Also, having said all of that bollocks above, I still don't wanna put Chavs in as a race, because it's still mocking a bunch of humans - no matter how deserving, dedicating an entire race of my game to taking the piss out of chavs seems cruel (because chavs are still people) and redundant (because everyone else does that for me).

Also I don't wanna have that same argument every time a white, middle-class American comes in off Tumblr and pops their monocle. ;P


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 04:07 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Also guys am I missing something here with the whole "Filthy thieving ill-mannered violent disgusting arseholes" being a stereotype against anyone shorter than five foot? I wasn't aware that there were any stereotypes against little people other than that they're, y'know, short.

Oh God did I create that stereotype


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Laser Towel
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 04:07 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 04/26/11
Posts: 37

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

Quote by: Laser+Towel

Obviously this is a problem because midgets are people and chavs are not.

My point is that if it was fine several years ago then it's fine now. It's not intentionally singling anyone out for verbal abuse, it's no different than telling off-colour jokes, which virtually everyone does, and people will never stop doing so.

There is a fine line between willfully and intentionally singling out a group of people to ostracise, and creating a group of comically offensive individuals that happen to bear (in Hairy Mary's own words) "superficial similarities" to real-world groups or individuals, with no ill will intended.

You can't please everyone, and that's exactly what PC (ostensibly) strives to do, yet fails so spectacularly at. It's an inherent flaw to political correctness - it neglects literally everyone but the groups it targets.

I had an entirely different post to begin with, but it was very much anger-fueled and it probably would have been quite unwise to post that version, so. :I



Laser Towel, you really didn't think long enough before posting this, did you now. No it was a mistake several years ago and it's certainly not fine now.

There is an even finer line between willfully and intentionally singling out a group of people to ostracise, and creating a group of comically offensive individuals, with no ill will intended, but knowing damn well that you're being pretty offensive. In fact I'd go so far as to say that there's no line at all.

PC, in essence, tries not to be a dick. Doesn't always succeed, but in general it's not bad. Frankly your argument sounds uncannily like somebody who wants to be a dick without it being pointed out to them. Grow up. Take responsibility for your own behaviour. You're not special, and thinking that you can hand shit out but then whining because somebody else doesn't just go along with everything you want is crap. It really is. Please pull your head out of your fundament.



So in essence, you are saying that Dan created the Midgets knowing full well that someone, somewhere, would find it offensive. Otherwise, he'd have no reason to change it now.

I don't particularly care what my argument sounds like. It is what it is. A post made after thinking it out for a good half hour, multiple rewrites in an (apparently failed) attempt to be less offensive, in order to convey the message that THERE IS LITERALLY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEIR STATURE BEING OFFENSIVE TO LITTLE PEOPLE AND THEIR PERSONALITIES BEING OFFENSIVE TO CHAVS. Oh, but chavs don't matter because no one likes them, right? See, this is why I dislike PC. It's not equilateral. It's very much not. Especially when people who claim to be attempting to be inoffensive turn around and accuse others of being dicks on the sly when they are trying to point out PROCEDURAL INCONSISTENCIES. You can take literally any trait EVER and apply it to any type of humanoid EVER and someone, somewhere, will resemble it. And if that combination you have made is for the purpose of garnering laughs at the expense of the character you have created, you risk offending the person or persons they resemble.

Just... think about that for a moment.

I take full responsibility for my posts. If they offend anyone, tell me. Let me know why. I've never said I was special, and believe me, I'm not whining. So perhaps you ought not put words in my mouth, and take responsibility for your own behaviour.


Dent
 
Profile Email
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 04:20 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Also also also guys I find it inherently problematic that a game even has races at all and that the entire race is stereotyped to such a degree (see Why Dan Doesn't Like D&D, With The Whole "All Orcs Are Evil" Thing, It's Troubling To Me That An Entire Race Is Lumped Together And Simplified Like That And Yes I'm Aware Of The Irony Lol Game Design) BUT yikes everyone being human would be boring as hell from a story standpoint and from a game design standpoint, and don't get me started on racist and sexist symbols in video games or we'll be here all day.

...I'm not really interested in turning Midgets into, y'know, tall people. I think we already do a fairly good job of making fun of the Midget race on the basis of their disgusting behaviour, rather than their size. Really, their shortness is incidental to their unpleasantness, and I think the biggest mistake I've made here is not making them short, but calling them Midgets. If I change the name, then people coming in are unlikely to go "They're a slur against little people" any more than can be said of Tolkeinesque races - but the people already in the game are always gonna know, and that background culture will stick around.

Someone above mentioned something along the lines of frog-people, as a race that could replace Midgets - I kinda dig that. I think the route to take here is gonna be making them less human, so that (hopefully) they won't be perceived as a slur against any particular sort of actual human that exists. Of course, that could be argued against, and I'm open to opposing arguments.

There's no rush on this. This is a conversation that's probably gonna go on and on and on, and if we're gonna change Midgets (which we should and we will, no doubt) then we should take the time to do it right. Feathers will get ruffled as they always do in conversations like these but please, keep it as civil as you can.


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 04:27 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

And, after-posting, reading the post that got in while I was typing this one - again, stressing this, keep it civil. That's as uncivil as you get to be - posts that cross my arbitrary line of incivility will get erased, regardless of who posts them, their position of privilege or lack thereof, or the post's merit or lack thereof. You lot know damn well that I'm a tyrant who will quite cheerfully wipe his arse on the first amendment, so you know I'll follow through on this. Mr. Green


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Hairy Mary
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 04:31 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 1083

Quote by: CavemanJoe

And, after-posting, reading the post that got in while I was typing this one - again, stressing this, keep it civil. That's as uncivil as you get to be - posts that cross my arbitrary line of incivility will get erased, regardless of who posts them, their position of privilege or lack thereof, or the post's merit or lack thereof. You lot know damn well that I'm a tyrant who will quite cheerfully wipe his arse on the first amendment, so you know I'll follow through on this. Mr. Green



My apologies. I'll shut up.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Harris
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 04:55 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 456

Midgets are not popular to play (as a race), but man, this IS one of the most beloved parts of the Island we're talking about here. I've tried playing them myself, (but MAN, is it hard to do that dialect! And yes, above and beyond chavs, my British brothers, your accents really are the planetary standard for suave, brutal, or both. So yes, Midgets need an English dialect! But I digress.) ... Hairy Mary, Cantankerous Biggs, Black Jacques Chirac, Pirate Queen Genevive all might be the only people who ever love playing Midgets and never stop, but they have brought so many smiles for years with their antics. So many. "How?" and "Why?" are not questions answered by "Oh fuck, it's because this is a midget joke, isn't it?". Nope. Along with each of their distinct writing styles, they did this by running up to the official and unofficial culture that this race has and EMBRACING it like a giddy five-year-old. It was their own wit coupled with always writing to us that "these folk are cunning, stubborn, crude, lewd, thuggish, and/or petty bastards"! Having played since 2009, I can remember none of these folks (whom most folk remember when they think of Island Midgets EVER making "the joke" as having anything to do with their characters' height (or almost ever noting their characters' heights at ALL) .

Shoot CMJ, even the in-game writing empahsizes Midgets' height very little compared to how in-your-face their attitudes, habits, and fighting prowess is.

I think we need to pare down the point of "how do we need to change Midgets to make them more purely on the point that they're there to MAKE" to the question of "Okay, what do we rename them?" Because outside of height , their name is the only easily definable sticking point. As for height- well, as HM very, very politely pointed out that's an arbitrary factor indeed for us real folk. Take away the name "Midget", and it seems we can keep our favorite game brutes as is.


P.S.-

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Also guys am I missing something here with the whole "Filthy thieving ill-mannered violent disgusting arseholes" being a stereotype against anyone shorter than five foot? I wasn't aware that there were any stereotypes against little people other than that they're, y'know, short.

Oh God did I create that stereotype



Nah. I'd say that one can blame Tolkien, Gygax, and the lot for that.


EDIT: CMJ, Just saw the post you put in above mine about the name, and yeah, I think we agree!


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Count Sessine
 Monday, April 21 2014 @ 04:58 PM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 1402

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Count+Sessine

I think that's a good place to draw the line. Chav can be used as shorthand here, while we're discussing the issue, for a certain highly unattractive pattern of behaviour (crude, filthy, unlettered, violent, foul-mouthed, stealing everything that's not nailed down, etc.) which is a legitimate target for humour, but chav is also a contemptuous class-based slur against very poor youths with no prospect of a life. You could probably find some lower-middle-class Brits who would almost-seriously maintain that they aren't people.



OH NO NO NO NO NIPPING THIS IN THE BUD RIGHT NOW. This was bound to come up at some point, given how many American and Canadian players we have these days. Razz



Um. Woops! Backpedaling NOW!

My knowledge of this, as a thoroughly middle-class Canadian, comes entirely from second-, third-, and tenth-hand accounts. I have read a lot of such accounts in an attempt to understand the overtones -- but clearly there's a great deal of misinformation out there, and I've drawn some wrong conclusions. I also expressed my limited understanding badly! I did not intend to suggest it's an insult against the whole working class - only that the people I thought it applied to all did seem to be very poor: forever unemployable, and defiant about it. Apparently that's wrong.

I also ran across vigorously expressed hostility online, so that definitely exists. It sounded to me like most of this hostility was coming, not from the comfortable middle class, but from working class people who were themselves just scraping by. But it seems this is one of those social land-mine fields that foreigners would do best to avoid. From now on, I think I will put it in the same category as American race relations: an area where it's best to keep in mind that however much I might think I've understood, I am always going to be missing really important nuances.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Content generated in: 0.84 seconds
New Topic Post Reply



 All times are UTC. The time is now 10:05 AM.

Normal Topic Normal Topic
Locked Topic Locked Topic
Sticky Topic Sticky Topic
New Post New Post
Sticky Topic W/ New Post Sticky Topic W/ New Post
Locked Topic W/ New Post Locked Topic W/ New Post
View Anonymous Posts 
Anonymous users can post 
Filtered HTML Allowed 
Censored Content