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 Larger Clans, please
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 05:15 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Last Season, there were 5 very powerful Clans



This is why we have the member limit.

Hey, anyone remember the Pilot? There was only one clan, there.

I might at some point make a feature where clans can pay cigarettes for bigger Clan Halls, but even that will have a very high cost that increases exponentially with more available slots.


 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 07:21 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

I might at some point make a feature where clans can pay cigarettes for bigger Clan Halls, but even that will have a very high cost that increases exponentially with more available slots.

Thus turning the game-provided clan hall into something like a... dwelling? Hm.

We do need, have long needed, something interesting that clans can focus on, when Buffs Are Not The Purpose. What that is -- has to be very carefully chosen; last season demonstrated how very easily a simple req-based competition between clans can go awry.

Here are some of my thoughts:

-- It should be set up to spark player creativity. Objectives defined by the code are inherently repetitive. Even if they're complicated, they will eventually, inevitably, stop being interesting. Human ingenuity is ... well, not endless. (Groups of people can still exhaust the possibilities of each others' ideas and go stale -- that's why this topic is popping up again now.) But it does provide a lot more scope.

-- It should reward clan members working together to create something positive that helps the Island be more fun for everyone. The reward should be intangible: the prestige of having done something lasting that others can admire and enjoy.

Buildings have been drafted into serving as this purpose, for a number of clans. The improbablehousing code wasn't written with that in mind; there are a number of structures on the Island that are, by common agreement, clan halls -- but the code still treats these as belonging to the single player character who first drove the stake into the ground. It would not be impossible to retrofit dwellings to allow for clan ownership. (Add an 'ownedbyclan' field? It'd still be a fair bit of fiddly detail work, incorporating various clan privileges.)

Where this would really start to show its potential would be in combination with Devin's "Signs" feature that -- he assures me -- he has almost finished coding, and is about to submit for evaluation and... maybe? beta testing.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 08:28 PM UTC  
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Yup, we'll be doing that. Smile Probably a Season 2.5 thing, when we turn all the buildings in the game into Buildings...

Oh, and in the meantime - yeah, to hell with "I might at some point", I've just done the pay-for-bigger-member-cap thing. Testing it now. Shouldn't be too unbalancing, given the costs.


 
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Mack
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 08:48 PM UTC  
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O_O That was fast. When you say you'd like to do something you really hop to it.

I look forward to seeing this. (Not that my whole 3 person clan needs it.)


You can toast them, but it's dark magic. - MotPax on hotdog buns.
 
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 08:49 PM UTC  
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AND IT IS LIVE.


 
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KimmyMonstah
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 08:55 PM UTC  
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Hooray!

*goes to get some popcorn to watch people flock to GERM and DICE*


 
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dizzyizzy
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 09:29 PM UTC  
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Hang on a tic. Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing the incentive of parting with more ciggies. What's in this for me? I mean, it's not like I only interact with people in my clan. sorry for being a bit selfish, but I'm not seeing the logic in donating.


 
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Mack
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 09:42 PM UTC  
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For the future. Clan buildings will be a real and viable place, with their own effects for clan members only. Once this happens, chances are there will be the need for more clan members.

Not to mention, some people want to be in certain clans.


You can toast them, but it's dark magic. - MotPax on hotdog buns.
 
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Adder Moray
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 09:43 PM UTC  
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Quote by: dizzyizzy

Hang on a tic. Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing the incentive of parting with more ciggies. What's in this for me? I mean, it's not like I only interact with people in my clan. sorry for being a bit selfish, but I'm not seeing the logic in donating.



Theeeeeeeennnnnn don't, maybe?


 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 09:44 PM UTC  


Quote by: dizzyizzy

Hang on a tic. Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing the incentive of parting with more ciggies. What's in this for me? I mean, it's not like I only interact with people in my clan. sorry for being a bit selfish, but I'm not seeing the logic in donating.



Pretty much just a cig sink, dizzy. After a while, active DKers make oodles upon oodles of cigs, and have run out of awesome things to spend them on. And a lot of those DKers are in clans that have already got maxed-out buffs. It's something new to invest in.


 
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dizzyizzy
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 09:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Escemfer

Quote by: dizzyizzy

Hang on a tic. Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing the incentive of parting with more ciggies. What's in this for me? I mean, it's not like I only interact with people in my clan. sorry for being a bit selfish, but I'm not seeing the logic in donating.



Pretty much just a cig sink, dizzy. After a while, active DKers make oodles upon oodles of cigs, and have run out of awesome things to spend them on. And a lot of those DKers are in clans that have already got maxed-out buffs. It's something new to invest in.



Alright, thanks. I was just wondering if I had missed something.


 
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calliaphone
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 10:56 PM UTC  
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Wow, thankyou CMJ for this rapid change - i'm very excited to know there's now increased flexibility, for clans that are nearing full.

As for Sessine's points...I agree that clans need more than just new people to keep the role-play fresh. Finding ways to offset repetitiveness in the game world demands a lot of creativity, and help with this would be very welcome indeed.

Also, just some wish-list items of mine regarding owned-by-clan buildings (if that comes about):

- I dunno how hard/easy any of this is to code, but it'd be really nice if these could be accessed from the clan-halls as well (perhaps without the "exit to map" option, to prevent it being used for free travel?).

- And, i know i've said before but since it's relevant to the clan-spirit/role-play issue i'll mention it again here - for those of us who've got a bit carried away and built monstrously big clan-hall dwellings ... being able to see, in the contestant list, which room your clan-mates/friends were in, would be really helpful to role-play.





 
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Bakemaster
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 11:35 PM UTC  
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Quote by: calliaphone

3) Established clans, not ever being full, would be able to continue welcoming new members into their sub-community, and integrating them into whatever the clan's style of RP happens to be at that moment.


I'm going to jump in here to say that the above is one of the big reasons for my firm opposition to the idea of increasing the clan member limit. (Also at this time I would like to mention that I've been writing this post in fits and starts between classes today, and when I started it Dan hadn't suddenly popped in and implemented the new upgrade option... but I'm going to post [most of] it anyway!)

I understand that people in an active, fun clan want to have friends and be happy-go-lucky and promote their own community. At the same time, I wish players would give more thought to the broader effects their clan may have on the Island as a whole. A large clan is very attractive and very beneficial to individuals, particularly in terms of shared buffs and information. It makes sense that new players want to join up, and the larger it is, the more attractive. At the same time, though, I think overly large clans have some demonstrably negative effects on a community as compact as this one.

If the folks in the SWEET network will indulge me in a little friendly (and hopefully constructive) criticism, I'd like to use their clan structure as an example to illustrate what I mean. Please understand that this is not an attack on any player or any group of players, just an intellectual analysis of the clan structure. Those who know me a little by now, know that I'm not big on drama and I tend to be direct, so I hope those who don't know me to that extent will trust that if I am brusque, I mean no offense.

I see in the SWEET network a set of clans that have grown from the same origin, which operate as a centrally administered unit, and have a relatively homogeneous flavor (if you'll pardon the pun). I know from experience that their membership comprises many talented, exciting, creative people; I would love for them to bring that talent, excitement and creativity to the forefront with respect to the greater IIsland community by creating or joining clans that have unique, varied and individual identities. I really enjoy reading new clan descriptions, finding clan buildings, learning about how each group operates in its own way. So, I find it somewhat disappointing that several of the most active clans in the game are actually just iterations of one uber-clan, when there are more than enough players between them, with more than enough vim and vigor (though I can't make any claims vis-a-vis pulchritude) to populate several interesting clans of their own, the existence of which would only further enrich the IIsland, as well as SWEET itself. Long story short: The more our clans expand in size, the fewer of them we're likely to have, and the less interesting the community becomes.

Nobody's trying to make this place boring (nor could they possibly succeed), and I've never seen evidence around here of any clan grabbing for power or trying to run other clans off the road, as it were. I know the motives for having bigger clans are genuine and not in the least malicious. Still, I think it's important for people to consider that rational self-interest only goes so far; the tragedy of the commons applies, here, insofar as our limited resource is the player-base of which the community is made. It's a far greater challenge to build a clan that means something with room enough for only 20 players, in a game of thousands, than to simply build as big a clan as possible, with all your stats maxed, your widgets achieved, your name spray-painted onto the world map, and so forth. I don't think there's anyone in this community who isn't up to that challenge, but it takes a certain amount of good faith. When I see players or clans try to circumvent game limitations, I see a certain amount of disregard for the creators and operators of the game. It's hard not to also take it as disrespect toward those players and clans who work with what they're given. And that's what I mean by good faith.

Does that make sense to people? I would like to know. Because sometimes I am over here ----------------------------------->
while everyone else is over there
<-----------------------------------
and it's hard for me to tell if that's the case until I get some feedback.

While I'm wall-of-texting, does anyone know what the costs are for the upgrades beyond the first? I see 200 ciggies for what looks like 20+1 members, total, but have no idea how steep the curve is from there, or whether there's another hard cap to the upgrades vs. a soft cap. And that first increase is definitely not what I'd call "expensive", especially compared to clan buffs. One DK's worth of ciggies, or less, per member. Piece of cake.


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CavemanJoe
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 11:43 PM UTC  
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The cost increase is 10% for each extra member. This gets expensive fast. Wink


 
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KimmyMonstah
 Monday, October 18 2010 @ 11:56 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

The cost increase is 10% for each extra member. This gets expensive fast. Wink



Is there even a limit anymore?
Say someone [lets name him "BickyJukebox"], has a stupidly incredible amount of ciggies.
Stupidly incredible.
Lets also say he's a uhhh...a Founder to a clan.
How far could bloody Bicky keep going?
Would there be a max of 50 or something, or could Bicky, with all his incredibly huge and seemingly-impossible amounts of ciggies, be able to just keep adding spaces for a clan?


Yes, I felt like making this more wordy and silly than it should be, exqueeze me, I'm in a rather peppy and silly mood!


 
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Tyr
 Tuesday, October 19 2010 @ 12:29 AM UTC  
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Really? Only ten percent? So a 22nd member would cost you 220 cigs?

I was expecting something more like 400 for the second.

I realize I'm not a normal player by any means, but I could buy 5 slots, on my own, outright. And have almost enough for a 6th. The clans that want more spots are the clans with 20 people in them - 20 active people (or mostly active). And if they've been around for a while, they probably have cigs to burn. A 25 person clan would be child's play. A 30 person clan, maybe a bit of work, but could be achieved pretty quickly. I'll give you that a 100-member clan would be hard, but...I think you're overestimating how difficult it will be for people to get cigs together. Especially if they've got someone willing to run some Rank 7's or Bastards.

Or if they're talky.


 
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Bakemaster
 Tuesday, October 19 2010 @ 12:32 AM UTC  
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So the cost for n extra members is given by the sum from zero to n of 200 x 1.1^n?

For a total cost of about 3,200 ciggies to increase the cap to 30 members; 11,500 to increase the cap to 40 members; and 33,000 to increase the cap to 50 members.

I have to say, that's a hell of a lot cheaper than I was hoping it would be. The cost to 30 members is a pittance for any clan that's actually got 20 active members, especially those with buffs already maxed and ciggies to burn. The cost to 40 members is still cheaper than the cost to max out those buffs. And once you've gotten to 40, you're only looking at about 150% of the cost to max clan buffs, with twice as many members.

So we might very roughly estimate it taking a similar amount of time to double the size of your clan as to max your clan buffs, and then less time again to increase the size of the clan to 50, since you're doing 150% of the work with 200% of the manpower.

I don't see a soft cap forming here until well over 50 members. Once you've hit 50, the additional cost to reach 55 is about 420 ciggies per member, assuming the clan is full at 50; that's certainly expensive, but we've already more than doubled the size of the clan. That's an enormous change from the status quo, to say the least. We can look forward to clans that size, and larger, within a few months, I think.

I was hoping for something more like, the cost is raised to a power of 1.1 with each successive purchase. That would make the cost to increase from 20 to 30 members almost the same as the entire cost of clan buffs, and I could see a soft cap starting to form in that scenario between 35 and 45 total members. I mean, as a fan of the current 20-member limit, I'd like to see the soft cap come in even earlier than that (to the point where ten extra slots would be an epic achievement), but it's a start...

EDIT: In Tyr's case, if he's talking about a doubling function, we're looking at the sum from zero to n of 200 x 2^n:
6,200 ciggies total for 5 extra slots
25,400 ciggies total for 7 extra slots
204,600 ciggies total for 10 extra slots <-----we've definitely reached a soft cap somewhere around 30 in this case


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KimmyMonstah
 Tuesday, October 19 2010 @ 12:44 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Tyr

Really? Only ten percent? So a 22nd member would cost you 220 cigs?

I was expecting something more like 400 for the second.

I realize I'm not a normal player by any means, but I could buy 5 slots, on my own, outright. And have almost enough for a 6th. The clans that want more spots are the clans with 20 people in them - 20 active people (or mostly active). And if they've been around for a while, they probably have cigs to burn. A 25 person clan would be child's play. A 30 person clan, maybe a bit of work, but could be achieved pretty quickly. I'll give you that a 100-member clan would be hard, but...I think you're overestimating how difficult it will be for people to get cigs together. Especially if they've got someone willing to run some Rank 7's or Bastards.

Or if they're talky.



Hurhur, exactly.

I do think that if there isn't a max cap, there should be.
Otherwise we will only have a couple clans- The ones that have had their Buffs done for a long time and most members have a dumptruck in their backyard with ciggies in it.

I'm not opposed to this whole "bigger clans" thing. But I'm not all gun-ho about it either.
30 could be a good max, I think. 50 at the most.

To be...honest? I think there are better things that people with that many ciggies could buy. What about a pair of fuzzy dice for your zombie donk, or something along those lines? Some really silly things to get could be more fun for everyone, I think!


 
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dizzyizzy
 Tuesday, October 19 2010 @ 01:38 AM UTC  
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Quote by: KimmyMonstah

Quote by: Tyr

Really? Only ten percent? So a 22nd member would cost you 220 cigs?

I was expecting something more like 400 for the second.

I realize I'm not a normal player by any means, but I could buy 5 slots, on my own, outright. And have almost enough for a 6th. The clans that want more spots are the clans with 20 people in them - 20 active people (or mostly active). And if they've been around for a while, they probably have cigs to burn. A 25 person clan would be child's play. A 30 person clan, maybe a bit of work, but could be achieved pretty quickly. I'll give you that a 100-member clan would be hard, but...I think you're overestimating how difficult it will be for people to get cigs together. Especially if they've got someone willing to run some Rank 7's or Bastards.

Or if they're talky.



Hurhur, exactly.

I do think that if there isn't a max cap, there should be.
Otherwise we will only have a couple clans- The ones that have had their Buffs done for a long time and most members have a dumptruck in their backyard with ciggies in it.

I'm not opposed to this whole "bigger clans" thing. But I'm not all gun-ho about it either.
30 could be a good max, I think. 50 at the most.

To be...honest? I think there are better things that people with that many ciggies could buy. What about a pair of fuzzy dice for your zombie donk, or something along those lines? Some really silly things to get could be more fun for everyone, I think!



I second this. I like the idea of mount accessories, especially.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, October 19 2010 @ 02:44 AM UTC  
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Quote by: dizzyizzyI like the idea of mount accessories, especially.[/p]


Oh, Mount Accessories. That, my friend, is a long and saddening tale.

So I wrote a Mount Addons module that worked just fine, and then I never wrote anything to go in it.

And then I rewrote it, and called it Mount Accessories - it was fast, it was powerful, it was extensible, it had hooks, it could do anything. Anything. Never wrote anything for it. But I did start writing an Item system that turned into IItems, the inventory system with which we started Season Two.

SO! Hey, Mount Accessories are items! We can put them in IItems! And so I did! The module "Mount Accessories - IItems version" was live on the server, containing absolutely no content, until I rewrote the Items system last month, breaking it.

So I've written no less than three fully-working Mount Accessories systems, each time realizing just after completing them that I'd better actually make some damn Mounts to accessorize.

This is like what happened with Creature Targets, only even more depressing.


 
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