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 Places: A Discussion of Purpose and Creativity
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Genevieve
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 05:54 PM UTC (Read 5899 times)  
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A discussion came up in the Season Three Wild Speculation and Rumour Thread: http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=31050 about Places, what should be done with them, why've we got them, how should they change, and what're they for.

I thought that was a really great conversation, but the topic strayed a bit from season three related stuff and more the future of places in general, so I figured we could all talk about it here, perhaps?

It sort of started here: http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=31050&mode=&show=5&page=24 with Temper's post and then carried on until my link to this article, I suppose.

I'd feel awful trying to summarize the eloquent opinions posted there.


Now for my two cents:

Places, to me, are an incredible outlet for creativity that the Island otherwise can't have. Sure, people can use special comments to establish the 'set' of their scene, but it isn't permanent, it is something in the moment that is just as useful and beautiful. But Places are a permanent stage for potential stories.

But yes, they're either tragically under-used or over-used.

Many people have built homes or clan spaces in which they've disappeared forever, writing only in these private spaces for an occasional wandering eye to discover, admire quietly, and leave. More have built sprawling, public places, in which they take their friends for big group scenes, or more private ones behind locked doors.

Then there's the amazing places that go unnoticed and unused, because there's not enough social interaction there to begin with. Not enough for people to want to stay, even if they're built in beautifully with the environment. Like the waste treatment plant, for example.

Do I, personally, think Places should have some manner of regulation? Really only in location. Many suggestions were made regarding 'Property Values' and their locations near outposts and I think that's brilliant.

To be perfectly honest, I think it'd be seriously detrimental to the finances of the game if any serious regulations were placed on Places, even if I do agree that there's some flooding of incredibly ornate and complex Places that don't really fit with the post-EMP world of the Island. I think, though, that having the huge, neon bolded names of Places hidden on the walking map and revealed with a simple "look at the Places" around you button would be nice, just to keep those who like quiet walks through the Jungle happy. Perhaps these Paths that were discussed in the other thread, maybe you can see houses from them, but not from random wild wanderings in the Jungle. Who knows. I do think it's really a bit jarring to see bright descriptions of mechanical and magical mansions and tree houses and bath houses etc. all over the jungle in which I just fought a Lion and a Panthzer and threw six grenades, cooked a corpse, and had to bandage myself.

I do understand the desire to have these places. As I said, they're player-made stages for the stories they most want to write. Or, in my case, player-made stages for stories they'd like to see written. Everyone who has built a place put some manner of effort into it because they wanted to create a story themselves or influence the creativity of others, and that's something I can always get behind. Even if it means I have to see a third of the players on the island in one brothel or another every time I check the contestants list. (That's an exaggeration, of course.)

If there was a way to make the less-used but still amazing places more accessible to new players I would really love that. Maybe if there was something like the Rally, that took you to Places around the island that players elected were worth a visit.

I don't know if anyone recalls the Cards for the trains, but some Places had Cards in them, encouraging visits. Anything like that could really breath life into forgotten locations.


 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 07:21 PM UTC  
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You just sparked a thought. (Thanks for the shout-out to Cards -- that was my main purpose in setting Trains up the way I did. There were serious flaws in the execution... I still think the goal was a worthy one: to draw attention to some really great player-creations.)

We get to rate monsters when we run into them in the Jungle.

What if... what if we could rate Places? AND... there was a Places Hall of Fame list?

We could even have several categories of Places, with independent ratings. The Classics. Island Institutions. Small Treasures. Best Crash Pads. You'd get to say which category you thought a Place belonged in when you rated it. (Which list it would appear in would be a majority vote. Your quality rating would still count, whether or not the majority agreed with you about the right category.)

Edit: There could also be a composite list for Best of the New, showing the top-rated Places in any category where the stake had been planted, say, less than six months ago. This would make sure the lists didn't all come to be dominated after a while by the same great but old places forever and ever. Or, Best of the Currently Active (which needs a better name): this one showing the highest-rated Places that had been updated in the last, maybe... two months.

This would do several things. First and most important, it would give creators some feedback, so they wouldn't go thinking their Place was unloved and unwanted when in fact it was highly prized by many players. It would give the competitive players amongst us an incentive to try to make a good Place. The top entries in the lists would give new players some ideas about what to go look at first.

Moreover, it would give mods/CMJ some data to go on when trying to decide what ought to be brought into the vicinity of an outpost or a path. It would still be a judgement call, same as with monsters,* but it would help us not miss the good ones.

==
* The Undead Dreaming Catfish God is still the lowest-rated monster in the entire game! It's staying because it appeals to my weird sense of humour, darn it, and I figure I get to give out a few Mod Exemptions. But when I was trying to pick monsters to appear in the Stars suit of the Art card deck, I sorted through the top-rated monsters to find candidates.


 
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Trowa
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 07:42 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Genevieve

If there was a way to make the less-used but still amazing places more accessible to new players I would really love that. Maybe if there was something like the Rally, that took you to Places around the island that players elected were worth a visit.

I don't know if anyone recalls the Cards for the trains, but some Places had Cards in them, encouraging visits. Anything like that could really breath life into forgotten locations.


Mementos can do that, but I don't think a lot of them really reference where they're found. Granted, we only get 255 characters to write the description publicly seen in players' bios, so that may have something to do with it. I mean, there are some Mementos that specifically reference where they came from (the Bordello's keychain is a good example!), but perhaps not enough?

I've always felt the same as Gen regarding Places being your own, customizable 'stages' for roleplay. I love having a 'set' I can return to for a scene whenever I want. Yes, I play in GDocs a lot now, too (for the convenience, I swear!), but I almost always reference an actualized Place (or a room in a Place I'm going to actualize).

I also like Places for beds! A very important feature, so important that many people have built entire hostels essentially, near outposts that are just filled with the best beds available! Who doesn't want a stamina boost every New Day?! Beds are awesome!!

I feel like I should have more to say about this, being the founder of a frickin' clan for builders and all, but I can't think of anything else right now. Places are just a major draw for me, they're basically what's kept me in this game long after I DK'd over 50, read all the story bits, made and lost many friends, and gone through many character shifts. I love that I can change my Places on a whim, restrict access (especially for plot-significant areas), make my character comfortable or downright tortured, create my own world, and bring all my friends along with me - all in one spot without ever having to leave the game.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but really? How many other games can claim that? Not a whole lot. (cue Minecraft and Sim-etc. fans) Improbable Island has a huge, huge replay value in that regard.


Oh! Can Places be distracting on the map? Absolutely. I dislike scrolling down an entire page of text just to see if there's a crate or herb on a square. Roleplaying on a square is just as cumbersome, since the position of the chatbox can change depending on how you load the page (entering text vs. clicking 'refresh'). In some cases Places can be a bit world-breaking, if you've already got your own mental picture of the Island going on, but there's not much that can be done about that, I feel. If Place descriptions were hidden by default, I'd rather prefer to still see the titles (maybe even give them a character limit). That way, even if there is a neon-splattered title, it's a little easier to ignore if need-be.


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Docenspiel
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 07:52 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

We get to rate monsters when we run into them in the Jungle.

What if... what if we could rate Places? AND... there was a Places Hall of Fame list?

We could even have several categories of Places, with independent ratings. The Classics. Island Institutions. Small Treasures. Best Crash Pads. You'd get to say which category you thought a Place belonged in when you rated it. (Which list it would appear in would be a majority vote. Your quality rating would still count, whether or not the majority agreed with you about the right category.)

Edit: There could also be a composite list for Best of the New, showing the top-rated Places in any category where the stake had been planted, say, less than six months ago. This would make sure the lists didn't all come to be dominated after a while by the same great but old places forever and ever. Or, Best of the Currently Active (which needs a better name): this one showing the highest-rated Places that had been updated in the last, maybe... two months.

This would do several things. First and most important, it would give creators some feedback, so they wouldn't go thinking their Place was unloved and unwanted when in fact it was highly prized by many players. It would give the competitive players amongst us an incentive to try to make a good Place. The top entries in the lists would give new players some ideas about what to go look at first.

Moreover, it would give mods/CMJ some data to go on when trying to decide what ought to be brought into the vicinity of an outpost or a path. It would still be a judgement call, same as with monsters,* but it would help us not miss the good ones.


If there were a rating system, I'd like to be able to leave a comment on why I gave such a good/bad score. Or to just tell the owner, "Hey, you put an extra and in that third sentence in that one room".


For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.
 
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Genevieve
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 08:04 PM UTC  
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Augh Sessine that's such a good idea. Place Ratings? What!? That'd be so brilliant, it really would encourage so much more visiting and play, seriously.

And yeah, like Doc said, being able to give feedback, since sometimes you don't know who actually wrote the place and I know Doc found like, dozens of spelling errors in my Place once and that was helpful to fix up, of course.

My only concern is that any ratings based on player-created things can result in hurt feelings.

But hey, y'know what... I think the good outweighs any potential bad in this situation.

What else would be handy is maybe an article here about Places! We've got the whatsit.. that big article about Dramatis Personae, yeah? I think it'd be neat to write such a thing for places.... Isn't there one? I really do remember such a thing existing somewhere if we could find that and refresh it, a blurb about each place, where it is, what it's for.

That'd be great.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 08:54 PM UTC  
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I do like the idea of being able to rate Places. Maybe take an average rating over the last six months say? Would that be feasible?

Gen: I think that this here is what you're thinking of.


 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 09:18 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Docenspiel

If there were a rating system, I'd like to be able to leave a comment on why I gave such a good/bad score. Or to just tell the owner, "Hey, you put an extra and in that third sentence in that one room".

The place-ratings module could offer a link to send a distraction to the owner. That would be more direct, and therefore likely more useful.

If for artistic purposes a player really didn't want the ownership of their Place to be public knowledge, it could let them choose to turn off comments.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 09:20 PM UTC  
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I think a "Like" system would be better than a five-star system. Possibly with a unique-visits-to-likes ratio.

Obviously we wouldn't call it "Like," we'd call it "Applaud" or something.


 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 09:31 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

I think a "Like" system would be better than a five-star system. Possibly with a unique-visits-to-likes ratio.

Obviously we wouldn't call it "Like," we'd call it "Applaud" or something.

I dunno... I'd kind of want some way to distinguish. Perhaps "Applause", "Applause With Hoots and Whistles", and "Standing Ovation with Shouts of Bravo! Bravissimo!!!"


 
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Docenspiel
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 09:36 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

I think a "Like" system would be better than a five-star system. Possibly with a unique-visits-to-likes ratio.

Obviously we wouldn't call it "Like," we'd call it "Applaud" or something.

I dunno... I'd kind of want some way to distinguish. "Applaud", "Applaud With Hoots and Whistles", "Standing Ovation with Shouts of Bravo! Bravissimo!!!"?


It's not really important, but I'd Applaud something like Puzzleland for a different reason than why I'd Applaud Port Foley. A little addendum as to why we Applauded, perhaps? Something like Memento attributes.


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CavemanJoe
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 09:40 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

I think a "Like" system would be better than a five-star system. Possibly with a unique-visits-to-likes ratio.

Obviously we wouldn't call it "Like," we'd call it "Applaud" or something.

I dunno... I'd kind of want some way to distinguish. Perhaps "Applause", "Applause With Hoots and Whistles", and "Standing Ovation with Shouts of Bravo! Bravissimo!!!"



You've seen how people use ratings systems. That'd turn into "Why would you only applaud, when you could shout bravo?!" faster than you can say "One-star rating."

I would like to set up a sort of Places Highlighting system, but it'd be mod-controlled, with the Applause as guidance for the mods.


 
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Genevieve
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 09:46 PM UTC  
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Oh man, thanks so much Hair! I'm gonna edit my own relevant places and such then probably link it in the Notice Board. I think it'd be a really useful tool for newbies and everyone, really.

I also agree that just "Applauding" something is a bit too... lacking? Some manner of rating would be helpful, like Sessine's suggestions. Attributes to applause would be cool too.

I applaud Soup and Pants for being really helpful to rookies. Sincerely Pleased Applause.
I applaud Whistle's Estate for making me laugh, Chuckling Applause.

Dunno, things of that nature. And yes, the option to send a Distraction to the Place owner would be great since y'know, spelling errors happen, and everyone likes knowing they're appreciated.

Sometimes people will not write in a Place since it doesn't make sense canonically for them to do so (I've seen plenty of secret lurkers in the Port) I know that people writing in your Place is a pretty great way to show appreciation, lacking that, distractions would be cool too!


 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 09:47 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

I think a "Like" system would be better than a five-star system. Possibly with a unique-visits-to-likes ratio.

Obviously we wouldn't call it "Like," we'd call it "Applaud" or something.

I dunno... I'd kind of want some way to distinguish. "Applaud", "Applaud With Hoots and Whistles", "Standing Ovation with Shouts of Bravo! Bravissimo!!!"?


It's not really important, but I'd Applaud something like Puzzleland for a different reason than why I'd Applaud Port Foley. A little addendum as to why we Applauded, perhaps? Something like Memento attributes.

That would be the Category you'd pick for the Place.

I suppose it would be possible to have meta-data about the Place available to visitors, such as the distribution of Categories people had Applauded it for.

Obviously the selection of meaningful Categories would take some thought. Too many, and it would destroy the value of the lists, but you'd need the right ones.


 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 10:00 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

I think a "Like" system would be better than a five-star system. Possibly with a unique-visits-to-likes ratio.

Obviously we wouldn't call it "Like," we'd call it "Applaud" or something.

I dunno... I'd kind of want some way to distinguish. Perhaps "Applause", "Applause With Hoots and Whistles", and "Standing Ovation with Shouts of Bravo! Bravissimo!!!"



You've seen how people use ratings systems. That'd turn into "Why would you only applaud, when you could shout bravo?!" faster than you can say "One-star rating."

I would like to set up a sort of Places Highlighting system, but it'd be mod-controlled, with the Applause as guidance for the mods.

Nobody would see who rated a place, or how they rated it. I agree that's a recipe for hurt feelings. A numerical aggregate is all anyone would see.

As a potential rater, I'd like the ability to distinguish my degree of enthusiasm for a good place. Some are nice, and I want to be able to say so, while others are crazy genius over-the-top amazing, and I want to be able to say that, too. If we only get one level of applause, some people will hold back on rating at all because they don't want to devalue their applause for the really great mind-boggling places.

As a potential rate-ee (if that's a word), I wouldn't know whether a rating increment of 3 meant that one person really, really loved it, or that three people thought it was rather nice. I'm not sure I'd care! Either way, it'd make me feel good. There's no need for the per-unique-visit number to be shown.


 
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Genevieve
 Thursday, October 03 2013 @ 11:00 PM UTC  
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Yes, anonymous ratings shown as a whole number as opposed to a list of values would prevent hurt feelings and allow for more honesty, I bet.


 
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dizzyizzy
 Saturday, October 05 2013 @ 04:15 AM UTC  
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I like the "like" system, and if there's one thing that Facebook has done right, it's holding out on the "dislike" button. No need for that negativity.


Also to go along with something Trowa said, I think mementos as branding are seriously underrated. I'm responsible for the Bordello Keychain (and Dildo), you'll also see a bit of branding from Dizzy's Music floating around. (I've got an advert into Sessine's Bio Page, hah!) Valksyr also has a metric shitton of branding, though I don't think I've seen anything meant as just branding, those have gameplay uses. I'm surprised I don't see more out there, there's plenty of restaurants, clubs, and such around.


 
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Count Sessine
 Saturday, October 05 2013 @ 04:55 AM UTC  
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I like the "like" system, and if there's one thing that Facebook has done right, it's holding out on the "dislike" button. No need for that negativity.


Also to go along with something Trowa said, I think mementos as branding are seriously underrated. I'm responsible for the Bordello Keychain (and Dildo), you'll also see a bit of branding from Dizzy's Music floating around. (I've got an advert into Sessine's Bio Page, hah!) Valksyr also has a metric shitton of branding, though I don't think I've seen anything meant as just branding, those have gameplay uses. I'm surprised I don't see more out there, there's plenty of restaurants, clubs, and such around.

Hey, and here I thought you gave him that doumbec because... because... (sniff!)

Ah well. It's still his favourite hand drum for a drum jam!

...uh. On topic. Right. Yes, it would be a clever thing to do, although if everyone did it, I suppose that might devalue the mementos a bit.


 
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Temper
 Sunday, October 06 2013 @ 05:13 AM UTC  
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Well, I've already said my two bits about what I think of Places.


Now, as far as a rating system goes? I think no. What I'd rather see is a "Send Distract to Owner" link in the Place, where it allows you to send them a message. Preferably, you won't know who you're sending the message to unless you know who owns the Place already. They'd be able to see who sent them the message (hopefully to deter trolls and haters), and I think it'd be nice if there was a lock option for it that disabled the "Send Distract" option. That way, people who were open to feedback could receive it, and we'd be able to tell people what we think of their places and why.


I don't care for a Places Rating List, because frankly? I can hear about good places via word-of-mouth, from people I like to write with. They'll be more likely to enjoy Places that I enjoy, having ostensibly similar tastes in writing, and can tell me about awesome Places that aren't just well-written, but that I'll probably enjoy.

Also? If I all I get on my Place is "two applauds out of thirty visits," then all I'm gonna think is, "Oh, I guess people aren't interested in/don't like my Place. Not worth putting much more effort into then, if nobody cares and nobody uses it."


 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Sunday, October 06 2013 @ 09:55 PM UTC  


The flaw in a vote-to-feature kind of system is that, no matter how we tried to weight it, the same Places would be appearing all in the same categories over and over again. I'd like to suggest, instead, a directory listing. Like a phone book! Players would be allowed to publish their own Places within certain categories: Sleep Here, Interactive Place, Roleplaying Set, For Your Amusement, etc. Places could then be rated within the listing.

I tend to prefer this idea because I've seen (and written!) a good many out-of-the-way Places intended for use as settings for roleplay, but which never get used. Part of the problem is that they are out of the way, and people tend to prefer near and convenient roleplaying venues, but I think another possible explanation is that the majority of players are used to seeing Places with an obvious purpose, and they don't know what to make of these quiet little venues. While I'd be gratified to see people thumbs-upping my place for being Funny or Interesting to Look At, I wouldn't expect to get any more traffic from such ratings and recommendations than I did without them. I think players being able to list their own Places, through an in-game feature, in the category they feel best applies, would be a better way to draw attention to little-used-but-still-awesome Places.



Also, I would love love love a way for visitors to Distract Place owners.

Also Also, I love the Undead Dreaming Catfish God. You aren't alone, Sessine. Mr. Green


 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, October 07 2013 @ 12:42 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Escemfer

The flaw in a vote-to-feature kind of system is that, no matter how we tried to weight it, the same Places would be appearing all in the same categories over and over again. I'd like to suggest, instead, a directory listing. Like a phone book! Players would be allowed to publish their own Places within certain categories: Sleep Here, Interactive Place, Roleplaying Set, For Your Amusement, etc. Places could then be rated within the listing.

A full Directory is a great idea. No reason we couldn't have both! And yes, we probably should ask owners to say which category they think their Place belongs in. Only... I can foresee that many owners would have considerable difficulty deciding, because they've made their Place to be multi-purpose! Soup and Pants, for instance, has a very useful number of beds, and it's also a fine place to roleplay. So there'd be value to the owners in asking voters which category they most value a Place for, and putting it on the list it's actually being used for.

Edit: We can't rely solely on the owner's categorization. For one thing, some owners (of very excellent Places) aren't here any more. But if the owner does pick a category, that's how the Place would be listed... unless that choice is outvoted by people who love it -- but for reasons the owner didn't expect!

It's true, some places would go to the top of their respective lists and stay there. Deservedly so! (Not naming any names... *coughStonehengecough*) That's why I suggested a couple of cross-category lists, too, one for new places, and another for places that have been recently updated. Your Directory idea would be another cross-category list... I suppose the categories would be like the Yellow Pages, and then there'd be a full White Pages list of all places, which could be sorted by rating points, or by location, or alphabetically by place name.

Quote by: Escemfer

I tend to prefer this idea because I've seen (and written!) a good many out-of-the-way Places intended for use as settings for roleplay, but which never get used. Part of the problem is that they are out of the way, and people tend to prefer near and convenient roleplaying venues, but I think another possible explanation is that the majority of players are used to seeing Places with an obvious purpose, and they don't know what to make of these quiet little venues. While I'd be gratified to see people thumbs-upping my place for being Funny or Interesting to Look At, I wouldn't expect to get any more traffic from such ratings and recommendations than I did without them. I think players being able to list their own Places, through an in-game feature, in the category they feel best applies, would be a better way to draw attention to little-used-but-still-awesome Places.

What the categories are, obviously, matters a lot in determining the usefulness of this system. So perhaps we should talk about that! I'd not want to see vague generic terms like "Interesting to Look At" -- you're right, that would not be informative at all. I don't think "For Roleplaying" is all that helpful, either. There are many flavors of RP, and I... well, I can't offhand think of any Place on the Island that wouldn't be suitable for some sort or another!

The Yellow Pages are useful because someone's put a lot of thought into devising those categories according to how people want to search for businesses and other services. We should do the same: let's think about how people would look for Places!


 
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