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Jay Chaos
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 02:05 AM UTC (Read 2317 times)  
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So, i was thinking (i do that a lot actually) and i've got this idea... Kinda useless though, but fun anyway.

What if, killing certain foes or doing certain things could give you or take moral/karma/alignment?

You start with 0, then you find a improbable event, let's say the one where the old man appears and ask you to take him to the nearest outpost. If you say yes, no matter what he does in the end, you gain one point. If you say no, you loose one point.

Negative numbers send you into a scale of evilness (Not so Good, Almost Evil, Slightly Evil, Evil, Moderately Evil, Really Evil, Wicked... Or something like that).
Positive ones send you into a scale of goodness (you've got the drill, don't make me do it too).

The effects of it could be... Well... A lot of things... Or none.

Just an idea...


 
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Hairy Mary
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 03:56 AM UTC  
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Something similar had occured to me. Slip in things like loosing karma for buying budget horse a second (or third) time. Let him go free (not an option at the moment, you can sell him back though.) gain karma. There's a few others as well. Run away from 'evil orc' - gain karma.

I was thinking that if you got enough, you can get a custom title, 'Saint' and a little halo icon maybe. Perhaps start giving small buffs (debuffs), especially if karmically good things end up being disadvantagous in the game. Also make it semi-invisible, like charm, or even invisible, so it's not mentioned at all, until someone suddenly gets a visit from an angel/demon offering them a halo/horns next to their name.

Yeah, probably a bit useless, but quite fun.


 
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Jon Bishop
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 05:38 AM UTC  
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An interesting concept. Though I'm personally not much of a fan of the "pure evil" or "pure good" concepts, as I feel moral decisions are too black and white in many games. But nevertheless, I suppose it would make things a little more entertaining.


 
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Jay Chaos
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 06:00 AM UTC  
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I agree in the sense that the concepts of "pure good" and "pure evil" are somewhat faulty... But if you do nice things people start to think you're a nice guy, so the sytem would only measure how good or evil you look to the others... Wich is all about what i thought.

The idea is that you have a way to be classified to the other players eyes. Like, "Yeah, i've heard of him... Killed the poor orc and his whole family... Not a good guy.".


 
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PyreKasen
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 12:26 PM UTC  
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Yeah, but the system would assume that you could somehow see that someone is evil/good, terms that are entirely objective to begin with. With everyone wandering through the jungle alone, no rumors would spread about people, unless the events were in town or the person spread them himself, so the only thing to go on would be a person's looks (his attitude is shown through RPing) but you can't just 'see' that someone is evil. This isn't Fable, you don't get glowing red eyes if you kick enough puppies.

If someone wants you to perceive him as 'evil', he'll put it in his bio and he'll act it out. This system'd be pointless.


 
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Ada
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 04:39 PM UTC  
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But then I'd have to play my character the same way I roleplay her!
The flavour text for most of the battles and events already doesn't make much sense once you pass human - making my actions with regards to that flavour text something that directly affects my character would be a bit weird.

For example: what if you were roleplaying one real jackass of a character, but you're doing one of Dan's quests and it's taking forever. You meet the old man. If you help him, he'll probably give you the Unbreakable Scythe of Whatsit. But if you help him, you'd get a good karma point, and you're playing someone who really isn't very nice at all. Your choice becomes "screw up character" or "spend who knows how much longer on this quest".


 
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Jay Chaos
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 09:39 PM UTC  
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That's why i said that it would only appear in rare fights and improbable events... Making it into almost every fight would make people need to run a lot, spending much stamina and not making progress.
It would be like Tattoo monster and magpie, if you run you loose charm. I prefer to fight and die than to loose that much charm. Luckly they don't apper that quite often.
And, anyway, it would be fun to have a contradictory character sometimes, uh?!

Rumors always go along, there are cameras all around the island isn't it? The own Network could show when people to something considered evil or good, like it happens in the news (where you can see people that get failboated or win over the drive).

Still think it would be a fun system... So your character is a good guy, for you, but it seems that you are evil to others. It's a good excuse to some RP situations. And this IS Improbable Island, why should not your eyes glow red if you kick puppies around?!?!?

(Same way i can put in my bio that i'm worst than Hitler and act like Jesus... Seriously, not many people would bother. If you're infamous for being evil and go around being nice to everyone, though... That would make people think.)


 
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g_rock
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 09:54 PM UTC  
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What about, instead of tying it to morality, you just created a counter that totalled your Improbability acceptance, or some such?
Every improbable event can add points to it (joker cake, pinata, whether or not you take the ferry), but only if you accept (walking away from the waterfall decreases points)

That way, it's used for bragging rights, like quester points, instead of for roleplaying or some such.

Maybe, if you want an effect, it changes the likelihood of encountering the events up to a certain level (like charm affecting prices in Sheila's)


 
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Jay Chaos
 Monday, December 14 2009 @ 10:01 PM UTC  
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Improbability Acceptance = Balls...? Works for me anyway.


 
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Paul Lo
 Tuesday, December 15 2009 @ 08:00 PM UTC  
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On the Island, there is not really a Good/Evil moral axis; just look at what the jungle creatures you mindlessly rip in pieces.

If that system was implemented, it would mean that most contestants(who don't actively run away) are evil, regardless of how they roleplay their character. That's a big letdown.

Same thing could be said about the lawful/chaotic axis. Everything on the Island is (to an extent) chaotic; flying toasters, Things from Behind The Fridge, pretty much all species (less for robots and gobots, but still), etc.

--


I don't know if what g_rock suggested would be hard to put on, but I'm not sure it's worth it, either as a simple marker or as an influencing force. As Jay Chaos said, it would mean that 'having balls'; putting your character's life on the line when you don't care about dying (like when you have a bad day as Joker) is not hard to conceive. On the other hand, when you get one of those rare Happy-happy days, you don't want to waste them. I don't really see the 'Balls' here, only responsible gambling.

And encountering non-combat events more often means possibly much more good stuff than usual; you don't get multiple ciggies or charm(Joker stew) after a battle. Or get experience (relatively) less quickly (except when you get big exp bonus, of course), depending on the view.


Yes, I have a dream, of electronic sheeps and linen bedsheets. But that's not the point. Or isn't it?
 
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Jay Chaos
 Tuesday, December 15 2009 @ 09:12 PM UTC  
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The beauty of the system would be that killing most of the stuff in the jungle wouldn't actually matter, it's normal... Just some new monsters or improbable events would suddenly matter.
As i see it, it would be a fun implement, useless yes, not having much sense yes... But so is charm. Even the ugliest man in the island, acording to his bio, can be more charming than 8% of the rest of the island. So, please stop arguing that it does not make sense, the sense of it is being fun, and it could even affect some other stuff, right, like charm is to discount.

And i believe there IS a good/evil/chaotic/good moral axis in the island, and killing stuff in the jungle has nothing to do with it, killing those is common sense (for example, i do not eat veal a.k.a. calf, 'cause i think is a horrible thing to kill an animal this young, but several people eat it and it's not considered evil).
There are people that, despite all improbability in the island, fight to stay sane (lawful, anyone?), and others that embrace all of it and are mumbling lunatics (chaotic?). There are people who care for the other players, and try to help (good...), and others who don't give a damn and just want to loot the poor bastard dead body (evil...).
And there are Jokers (true neutralness of doom).


 
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Milo D. Chinaski
 Wednesday, December 16 2009 @ 08:10 AM UTC  
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I do play my character the way I roleplay him. Milo has never killed an orc. I think favour and charm sorta have this one covered, but I wish there were more consistent ways to gain charm. Like, a charity for Horatio victims, and you can donate req and gain charm? But with a daily limit like the Skronky Pot so you can't just buy 40 000 req worth of charm before a DK.


 
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omenesia
 Wednesday, December 16 2009 @ 10:36 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Jay+Chaos

Rumors always go along, there are cameras all around the island isn't it? The own Network could show when people to something considered evil or good, like it happens in the news (where you can see people that get failboated or win over the drive).


You're saying that the network that created the show that our characters are contestants of. The same one that beat you up, kidnapped you, flew you to the middle of a war of reality, threw you out of a plane naked, sends you off to fight against a demented machine that distorts reality, time, probability and space with only your fists strapped to your back and your nudity for armor; charges you for basic medical "treatment", mocks you when you mess up, and is only interested in how good of a ratings draw you are, makes you beat up caged people/things to win favor to get out of it's floating jail -etc. You're saying a business that does all that is going to care about morality?

And this IS Improbable Island, why should not your eyes glow red if you kick puppies around?!?!?

Well, why shouldn't my eyes glow red when I spin counter-clockwise four time and hop on one foot? Or flash green every time I sneeze after showing penguins how to do macrame?

Besides as people say morality is different for different groups in general. A nude human might be indecent, while a clothed kittymorph might be scandalous and wrong. And zombies eating corpses? I'd think that might be a bit evil to some people. Midgets seem to be a misanthropic society, to the point where they're known for dirt, stealing, general unpleasantness and willingness to beat other people up for a phone - perfectly acceptable, possibly desired midget traits. Or the Jokers who're randomly doing things both good and evil/bad, where do they go?

I don't see any means to implement this with anything near a good Effort to Benefit ratio. Nor that it'd be any advantage over how people portray their characters now. But It'd certainly have an effect on how people play the game.

You start with 0, then you find a improbable event, let's say the one where the old man appears and ask you to take him to the nearest outpost. If you say yes, no matter what he does in the end, you gain one point. If you say no, you loose one point.

Currently a player helps or ignores an event based on the perceived cost and benefit of helping, ie +/-1 Charm. Your suggestion would add a second, more complex layer to that analysis: +/-1 Charm +1 Karma or 0 Charm -1 Karma. Now instead of being a gamble on how well the RNG (Random number generator) treats you, there's the added cost of affecting your Karma in either of the choices. Of course there could be added random events that are solely Karma influencing, but then that makes it more difficult for anyone who's RPing as amoral or whimsical or in a balanced way, whereas a "good" or "evil" person doesn't have to juggle results - they can mash the "good"/"evil" choice and move on.


Lions. Lions the whole way up.
 
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Jay Chaos
 Wednesday, December 16 2009 @ 07:41 PM UTC  
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You're saying a business that does all that is going to care about morality?


Yes! Specially if it gives you a hard time wih the other contestants! (Image manipulation, creating heroes in cowards, villains in unlucky bastards, that would surely increase the audicence).

I don't see any means to implement this with anything near a good Effort to Benefit ratio. Nor that it'd be any advantage over how people portray their characters now. But It'd certainly have an effect on how people play the game.


As i said, it's a useless system, unless someone give it a good use.

And... As i said, stop arguing about it not making sense, please. It really DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AT ALL. It's just fun, come on...

Of course there could be added random events that are solely Karma influencing, but then that makes it more difficult for anyone who's RPing as amoral or whimsical or in a balanced way, whereas a "good" or "evil" person doesn't have to juggle results - they can mash the "good"/"evil" choice and move on.


The point of it is not define your character to yourself, that's what's the Bio is for. There would be new random events (not connected with the charm system) that would drive you into a choice. The result of it would appear in the News (Contestant Example didn't help the Whinning Little Kid that was lost in the jungle, what a jerk.), and some points would be given/taken.
If you worry about your image that much or just really like to play as you roleplay, then just choose the right opition for it. If not, just mash the "good/evil" choice and move on. The Network just manipulate your image, but you don't give a damn.
Don't say you don't see it happening in all reality shows out there, they're always creating villains and heroes. It's fun, make the public take sides, increase audience.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Thursday, December 17 2009 @ 01:52 AM UTC  
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I can't think of a single time when my eyes haven't flashed green when sneezing after teaching macrame to penguins. Laughing Out Loud

How 'realistic' it is isn't too much of an argument, you can usually come up with post hoc rationals if you want. Nor are the various 'moral arguments', complexity and relativity of RL moral decisions. The Island really isn't the place for deep ethical dilemas at all, this should only be fairly light hearted stuff, easy 'black and white' cases.

I also don't see that 'It would make decisions harder' is much of an argument. Doesn't that make game play more interesting?

What IS an argument is how enjoyable it would be for players. Various people here have said 'not very' for various reasons. Mainly Roleplay vs. Gameplay reasons.

Again I don't see that that's much of a problem, if you want to game play to the max and keep it seperate from role play, then do so. There are plenty of examples of that happening, how often have you ever noticed anyone with a whacking great extra pair of arms sticking out of their back? Not often. I'm sure that plenty of people have servo arms, they just don't mention them most of the time because that would just get tedious fairly quickly.

I also suspect that plenty of people playing 'good' characters still get a budget horse and his descendants, or if they don't, it's because they happen to prefer zombie donkeys, not because of any moral issues. This doesn't hinder them playing 'good' characters at all. Fair play. My own character, Cantankerous Biggs, a damned charming midget. You'd never guess that if you ever met him, charming would be one of the last words you'd ever use to describe him. Come to that, look at some of the entities that are being role played out there, a centipedemorph by Ferryn, and an entire pack of who-knows-what by Chimental, to name but two. The fact that formally they're midgets, robots or whatever affects that in no way whatsoever.

Now I do, personally, like to keep my game play in tune with my role play as much as is reasonable, I fight using course insults almost exclusively, even when targeted fighting would give me a noticable advantage, but that's up to me. I don't do that every time though, and I don't let it bother me when I play out of character. If you want to role play it, then role play it. If you don't then don't. If you're worried because I suggested having a little icon then make it turn-off-able (or just don't have it at all).

There are some people out there however who do enjoy role playing it to the hilt, (Milo above for example) who won't take a budget donkey because they think that's really unpleasent and who get a twinge of guilt when beating crap out of the evil orc or the zombie kitten, and it's not impossible that their game experience would be improved if there was some sort of feedback noting this behaviour

Of course, how easy it is to implement is also an issue.


 
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Jay Chaos
 Thursday, December 17 2009 @ 02:10 AM UTC  
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OOT: Uh, i never got a Budget Horse... It's a old guy for Newton's sake... But i do beat the crap out of every orc around... Orcses are evil, is they are, my precioussss...


 
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