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Iriri
 Friday, July 23 2010 @ 02:45 PM UTC (Read 17720 times)  
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Okay, I've been thinking a bit, and while I don't know the feasibility of this I think it would be an all around good move.

We should be able to see a history of who picks up / drops construction materials on a square.

I think anyone with a dwelling has felt the fear that someone will come along, pick up their lovely stockpile of wood or stone that they worked so hard to collect... but at the same time, other people being capable of picking it up is essential to the cooperative aspect of getting a dwelling together. And that's what makes the really great projects possible. If there was a quicklink to a sort-of history, if you dropped 20 stones and they aren't there anymore you can see exactly who took them. And hey, if it was a friend just borrowing or helping build them in, no problem.

It would provide a sense of accountability that would go a long way to deter theft on its own-- because let's be honest. There is none. If you decide to steal a huge load of stone and sneak away with it, no one will know it was you, and that's very tempting. But if you can check in, say with the cameras around your house as a sort of deal with the Watcher upon purchasing ownership of a stake, anyone who still steals it is going to be accountable, and you can actually pursue the issue other than impotent rage-flailings at the unfair world and the unknown rogue who would do such an odious thing.

Ideas, suggestions, 'this would never work's?


 
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Kash
 Friday, July 23 2010 @ 03:09 PM UTC  
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Big props for thinking of the "deal with the Watcher" solution, because this has been discussed before and nobody really had any sort of workaround for the fact that there's not any sort of system like this in real life, at least not in jungles as we know them.

Still, I think that sort of deal sounds kind of... generous for the Watcher. Isn't she generally the one that only rescues you when you're dying? I doubt she would make any sort of concessions for you just because you paid a few packs of cigs for some land.

Part of the nature of leaving things lying around outside in the middle of nowhere is that people might steal it. I had a bike disappear from outside my dorm a couple years ago in part because I only had a 3-digit combination lock that takes about three minutes to work through if you know what you're doing. My dad lost a lot of tools and stuff from his garage when he left it unlocked one night. And remember, this is all in a society with a working, funded police force and generally cooperative pawn shops and watchful neighbors and such.

BUT
I hear Sheds are in the works, which would presumably have Improbably fail-proof locks and be able to store a reasonable, if not unlimited, stockpile of materials. So with a little patience you might get your wish in some form or another.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, July 23 2010 @ 04:50 PM UTC  
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I'm inclined to think that how realistic an idea is is the last thing that should be thought of. With a bit of imagination you can usually come up with some justification. Maybe you get your own security cameras with the land stake.

The real questions are, is it feasibly codable, and would it make the game more fun.

As an example, in the real world, you can give objects or money to your mates, or anyone else you want to. Not on the Island you can't. Totally unrealistic. Why? Because that would mean that req would stick around over DK and everything would get out of hand. It's a much better game this way. There are many, many similar examples on the Island.

This is a game. If you want real life then go out your front door.

Now. Is this idea codable? I haven't the faintest idea. If it is, would it be useful? I'm in two minds about this. On the one hand I've had my fair share of materials disappear on me. And yes, it's a serious bummer. On the other, I could see it leading to misunderstandings and unpleasent drama. I don't know. On balance I think that I'd be in favour of this, but with reservations.


 
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Count Sessine
 Friday, July 23 2010 @ 07:34 PM UTC  
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I agree with all that Hairy Mary said, with one exception: I see the arguments on both sides, but on balance, I think I would not be in favour of it.

I've lost materials, too. I know how infuriating it is; I have thought my own share of extremely nasty thoughts about whoever took them. At the moment (each time) I urgently wanted to know who it was. Then I realized (each time!) that it was a very good thing I did not have any way of knowing who had done it.

"Accountability" sounds good, but the other word for that is "blame," and that's not so good. It would change the tone of the Island. As mod, I'd have to try to settle down any Bad Drama that arose. I'm pretty sure there would be some.

On the whole, I think I would rather wait for sheds.


 
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Iriri
 Saturday, July 24 2010 @ 02:51 AM UTC  
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Sheds would also be good, and possibly easier to code based on my understanding of the system as it is. Prevention of any theft in the first place is worth more than a pound of (confrontational, drama-causing) cure. My reservations on it, however, are as follows: would it be an inconvenience to deal with shed permissions? Say a friend of yours or some other kind soul comes by and wants to use what building materials you have on your project (something that would actually quite please me!)-- would it be possible to make the materials in the shed usable to anyone who wants to use them, but ONLY on the property that particular shed is attached to? Could you give 'shed permissions' on a temporary basis to those you trusted? Would your inventory have a 'drop logs in shed' button if you were standing on a location with a shed you had access to?

A downside to security features is often that they hamper even the one using them. I like the idea of sheds, but I don't want them to be an added inconvenience.


 
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ByteKing
 Wednesday, July 28 2010 @ 05:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

I agree with all that Hairy Mary said, with one exception: I see the arguments on both sides, but on balance, I think I would not be in favour of it.

I've lost materials, too. I know how infuriating it is; I have thought my own share of extremely nasty thoughts about whoever took them. At the moment (each time) I urgently wanted to know who it was. Then I realized (each time!) that it was a very good thing I did not have any way of knowing who had done it.

"Accountability" sounds good, but the other word for that is "blame," and that's not so good. It would change the tone of the Island. As mod, I'd have to try to settle down any Bad Drama that arose. I'm pretty sure there would be some.

On the whole, I think I would rather wait for sheds.



I think that the better of the two words, and the one that makes this such a pervasive argument is 'accountability'. Making someone accountable for their actions, like theft, would go a long way to deterring theft, if someone KNOWS they will be seen/caught/held accountable.

Maybe a combination of the shed vs. security camera idea? You can leave a shed unlocked so anyone can drop off or take out materials, but all those are 'logged' by the built in security system? Or lock the shed and only you and those with keys can add/subtract.

Shame is a very powerful tool in keeping some order. I think it a great idea to offer some accountability and shame to those that insist on stealing other peoples hard work. Plus it offers great RP options if someone wants to PLAY the bad guy.


 
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Akogi
 Wednesday, July 28 2010 @ 07:56 PM UTC  
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Quote by: ByteKing



I think that the better of the two words, and the one that makes this such a pervasive argument is 'accountability'. Making someone accountable for their actions, like theft, would go a long way to deterring theft, if someone KNOWS they will be seen/caught/held accountable.



If someone does get caught though then it leads to bad drama as Sessine said. Though there might be some characters out there who would still do it just because it's their character or they don't know any better.

Quote by: ByteKing


Plus it offers great RP options if someone wants to PLAY the bad guy.



I don't want to play the bad guy although my character steals from people quite a bit, but that's just his nature.


 
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Ada
 Thursday, July 29 2010 @ 12:29 AM UTC  
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Quote by: ByteKing



I think that the better of the two words, and the one that makes this such a pervasive argument is 'accountability'. Making someone accountable for their actions, like theft, would go a long way to deterring theft, if someone KNOWS they will be seen/caught/held accountable.

Maybe a combination of the shed vs. security camera idea? You can leave a shed unlocked so anyone can drop off or take out materials, but all those are 'logged' by the built in security system? Or lock the shed and only you and those with keys can add/subtract.

Shame is a very powerful tool in keeping some order. I think it a great idea to offer some accountability and shame to those that insist on stealing other peoples hard work. Plus it offers great RP options if someone wants to PLAY the bad guy.



But, as Sessine has said, having accountability would make more a very negative island experience. I'm picturing people writing angry distractions to rookies who didn't know any better, while they're still in the heat of the moment and furious about the theft; people refusing to rp with people who've stolen from them; people acting like it is the character who has stolen them and not the character's player, and treating them as a pariah.
Those are all pretty bad things.
Actually, I find this whole debate absurd in the extreme, so I would probably be encouraged to move people's building supplies around. I wonder how many vitriolic letters I could collect if I, say, moved everyone's stashes two squares to the right.


 
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zamboni
 Thursday, July 29 2010 @ 03:54 AM UTC  
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Playing watcher's advocate: a lot of people roleplay on the Island. So, someone steals all your stuff. You send them a nasty distraction. They reply: "well, in real life I'd be really sorry, but I'm roleplaying a kleptomaniacal egomaniac, so the fact you know it was me just makes my character happy!"

The Island isn't filled with griefers, but I'm sure there are a few out there. One thing a griefer needs is recognition (even most hardcore griefers don't get pleasure out of screwing people over unless those people know who did it) - so does adding accountability decrease or increase the likelihood of theft?

I'm guessing that most of the people who "borrow" building materials fall into one of two categories:

1) don't realize what they're doing (rookies); and
2) don't care what they're doing (and in fact might get a thrill out of doing it).

Accountability will stop neither of those groups from stealing materials (and, in fact, might encourage the second).

The only people who would be really affected by accountability are the shame-faced thieves - likely people who are almost finished a building job and snatch a few logs or stones when no one is looking. I'm just guessing, because on the last II census no one admitted to stealing, but that's probably a fairly small group who contribute very little to the overall problem.


 
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Anonymous: Guessed
 Thursday, July 29 2010 @ 03:56 PM UTC  


(Steps out of Lurk mode)

Oh god ... bring on the sheds. Soon. Please.

Quote by: Iriri

... if it was a friend just borrowing or helping build them in, no problem. ...



As has been touched on before ... what if wasn't 'a friend'? "Problem" seems to be the implied alternative.This has "Invitation to Unpleasant Drama" written all over it.

(Recedes back to Lurk mode)






 
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Adder Moray
 Friday, July 30 2010 @ 04:16 AM UTC  
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I'm personally against it.

But maybe that's because I don;t usually leave material out, my stuff doesn't actually get stolen, so I wouldn't know. But I agree that this could lead to bad places as far as interpersonal interactions go.


 
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crashtestpilot
 Friday, July 30 2010 @ 03:53 PM UTC  
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Little known to anyone else, I have a shed already: It's called an alt.
Drop the stuff off, have your alt hold the stuff, new day, run off to get toolbox, make the alt drop your stuff, put the stuff in.

Alternately (no pun intended), collaborate with your friends. Use live chat to coordinate timing.
Shiloh and I recently had a wicked good time building out six extensions in one afternoon.

And that was without live chat.

If you leave stuff out, you take a risk. That's why I don't do it.
And until we have real sheds, my alt Shed McShedstein (not his real name) will be seen sleeping in forested corridors acting as a human warehouse.

If you have a problem, find a workaround. That's the way Dad did it. That's the America does it. And it's worked out pretty well so far.

All of this tongue in cheek.

Srsly, the drama is created when you lose your shit. Keep track of your shit, and the source of the drama abates.
This is why we have multiple deadbolts in New York. And why we have rifle safes in Oregon.

Love,

~CTP


 
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Kash
 Friday, July 30 2010 @ 05:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: crashtestpilot

Little known to anyone else, I have a shed already: It's called an alt.



Preeeeeeeety sure that's against the rules.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, July 30 2010 @ 05:56 PM UTC  
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Quote by: crashtestpilot

Little known to anyone else, I have a shed already: It's called an alt.
Drop the stuff off, have your alt hold the stuff, new day, run off to get toolbox, make the alt drop your stuff, put the stuff in.

Alternately (no pun intended), collaborate with your friends. Use live chat to coordinate timing.
Shiloh and I recently had a wicked good time building out six extensions in one afternoon.

And that was without live chat.

If you leave stuff out, you take a risk. That's why I don't do it.
And until we have real sheds, my alt Shed McShedstein (not his real name) will be seen sleeping in forested corridors acting as a human warehouse.

If you have a problem, find a workaround. That's the way Dad did it. That's the America does it. And it's worked out pretty well so far.

All of this tongue in cheek.

Srsly, the drama is created when you lose your shit. Keep track of your shit, and the source of the drama abates.
This is why we have multiple deadbolts in New York. And why we have rifle safes in Oregon.

Love,

~CTP



CTP, this has been suggested before, somewhere in the middle of here.
http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=12139&mode=&show=20&page=4

This was the official response.

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Yeah... using an alt for this is pretty cheaty, guys. Alts are only allowed on the Island at all because folks like to use them for RP. It'd be far, far easier for me to block alts altogether than it is for me to write in checks for every module where alts would allow a potential exploit.



That's why I don't do it. Working together with your mates is a good idea though, if a bit of a pain in the arse. Actually, material theft seems to have abated recently, possibly due to discussion here in the forums. Possibly it's worse the closer you get to Newhome/Improbable Central.


 
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crashtestpilot
 Friday, July 30 2010 @ 11:37 PM UTC  
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I'm not using him to install. I'm using him to hold.
If it's that big a deal, I can live in a world without alts.
In the meantime, I'm going to use the permutations of the game to deal with the challenges of the game.
~CTP


 
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crashtestpilot
 Friday, July 30 2010 @ 11:39 PM UTC  
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And when sheds are implemented, I'll use those instead.
In the meantime, I have shit to build.
~CTP


 
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Ada
 Friday, July 30 2010 @ 11:57 PM UTC  
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Quote by: crashtestpilot


In the meantime, I'm going to use the permutations of the game to deal with the challenges of the game.
~CTP



That sounds an awful lot like a really polite way to define "exploit". Two people just told you CMJ said that was cheating. That, uh, means it is cheating.
You should probably not be cheating?


 
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crashtestpilot
 Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:02 AM UTC  
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Okay, just reread my last two posts. Dickish in tone. Sorry about that.
I was just trying to avoid the very thing that's creating the drama - easy theft.
Sheds are going to fix that. I saw alts as a workaround.
That's all.
~CTP


 
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Hairy Mary
 Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:25 AM UTC  
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Well fair enough. I started doing that as well, but then it was deemed cheating, which is why I stopped.


 
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Tyr
 Saturday, July 31 2010 @ 12:38 AM UTC  
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There isn't drama. Drama would happen if people knew who was stealing their stuff. What we have now is frustration.

Sheds will be implemented, the world will be a better place, and we will move on to more important things. Like who keeps eating all the bacon.


 
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