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 If I could change one small thing on The Island
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Iriana
 Thursday, December 09 2010 @ 11:25 PM UTC  
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Do plots disappear when people's characters get kicked for inactivity?

I don't think that the price of setting a plot should rise with the number of plots already occupied on that square. Wouldn't that be unfair for newer members?

Originally I was thinking that dwellings should be taxed, but that you'd get a significant and permanent deduction for decorating, adding rooms, or adding furniture to your dwelling. But that'd be forcing people to be descriptive and (while I myself don't mind that at all) I can see people chafing at that.

I think there are 2488 possible plots. And I do think it would be good to make a decision about it now--because by the time you have the explosion of players, people will already have taken up more than one plot per square, or otherwise taken up space.

The best solution in my mind is simply to limit people to one per square. It's not perfect because people can still buy lots of spaces and waste them, but at least someone else could build there too.


 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, December 09 2010 @ 11:57 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana

Do plots disappear when people's characters get kicked for inactivity?

I don't think that the price of setting a plot should rise with the number of plots already occupied on that square. Wouldn't that be unfair for newer members?

Originally I was thinking that dwellings should be taxed, but that you'd get a significant and permanent deduction for decorating, adding rooms, or adding furniture to your dwelling. But that'd be forcing people to be descriptive and (while I myself don't mind that at all) I can see people chafing at that.

I think there are 2488 possible plots. And I do think it would be good to make a decision about it now--because by the time you have the explosion of players, people will already have taken up more than one plot per square, or otherwise taken up space.

The best solution in my mind is simply to limit people to one per square. It's not perfect because people can still buy lots of spaces and waste them, but at least someone else could build there too.

Me -- I think (if I wasn't clear), that we mods should have a tool that would let us delete houses that really weren't going to come to anything, ever.

Any rule that has ever been proposed when this topic came up before, there's always some exception, where common sense would say -- wait, no, it shouldn't apply to that! Mods can talk to the player involved, find out what's being planned, read what's there, and make a value judgement. Sometimes a building should be deleted. Sometimes the right answer will be to transfer the ownership to another player. Sometimes it should just be left alone.


 
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Matthew
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 12:33 AM UTC  
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Or, plots that have been Empty Plots for more than a month should be deleted and the cigs refunded. Or, maybe even not, as punishment.

I know there's one guy (won't name any names, but you (and others, probably) know who you are) with billions of Empty Plots everywhere and it's just ridiculous.


 
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Count Sessine
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 01:02 AM UTC  
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Or, plots that have been Empty Plots for more than a month should be deleted and the cigs refunded. Or, maybe even not, as punishment.

I know there's one guy (won't name any names, but you (and others, probably) know who you are) with billions of Empty Plots everywhere and it's just ridiculous.

That came across a lot grouchier than I suppose you intended. It's not an offense to have had grand plans that were never quite implemented. Stuff happens, y'know? But it would be nice to be able to ask, "Do you still want these?" and if the answer was No, to delete them.


 
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Matthew
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 01:07 AM UTC  
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That came across a lot grouchier than I suppose you intended..



Yeah, sorry. It's all in the tone you read it in, I guess.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 01:54 AM UTC  
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I agree with Sessine here. There will always be exceptions. Even with deleted accounts, sometimes they will want to be kept. Leave it to the mods. Maybe automate it so that mods get a message if there's a dwelling who's owner's account has been deleted, or that's been unbuilt for a month, but let them make the ultimate decision.


 
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Iriana
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 01:57 AM UTC  
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(Sorry, Sessine! I think you posted while I was writing a reply post and I never saw your post saying that it ought to be a moderator job.)

Mmmwell yes, but there are a lot of dwellings and I wasn't sure if mods would want to have another task added to their workloads. Initially, at least, I can see this as being at least a moderately time-consuming task.

In hindsight I think you're probably right about the seemingly long-abandoned dwellings. It does seem a thing that's best dealt with by human players rather than a set computerized rule. But I still think that people should only be able to occupy one plot per square. Sooner or later, running out of land will be a real possibility. Since dwellings are, presumably, unlimited in the number of stuff you can add to it, it just doesn't seem fair that one person use more than one plot per square.

I can't seem to come up with any better argument than that: "We need the space." "People can just make one big dwelling." But really it's a pretty simple debate. Up to CMJ and the mods, in the end.

edit
To Hairy Mary's post:
What? If they want to keep a dwelling after an account's been deleted? I don't understand that at all. If your character can be kicked for three months (is it three months?) of inactivity, why is your dwelling allowed to stay?


 
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Count Sessine
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 02:23 AM UTC  
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You know... that four dwellings-per-square rule? It looks like this:

$maxhousespersquare = 4;

If we ever run seriously short of plots... it won't be hard to wave a magic coder-wand over that and say, "Poof! there are now five plots per square -- or six, or eight!" So don't fret about running out of land.

And, Iriana? The reason we might want some dwellings to stay after the builder is gone is that some of them are very good buildings. We'd want to keep them around, not for the departed owner's sake, but to go on enjoying them and using them.


 
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Iriana
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 03:00 AM UTC  
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...Huh. You know, I'd better remember to think before I talk--probably save me some time. Not to mention embarrassment. Okay, so maybe the "we'll run out of space" argument isn't so sound after all. And since I can't explain other than that why a person should only be allowed one plot per square, I'll be quiet till I can come up with a reason. Bad form to argue without an argument.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 03:21 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana

Mmmwell yes, but there are a lot of dwellings and I wasn't sure if mods would want to have another task added to their workloads. Initially, at least, I can see this as being at least a moderately time-consuming task.

Initially maybe, but that's because there's a backlog of six months is it(?) since dwellings were introduced. Once that's dealt with, I suspect that it will be fairly low maintainance.

Sooner or later, running out of land will be a real possibility. Since dwellings are, presumably, unlimited in the number of stuff you can add to it, it just doesn't seem fair that one person use more than one plot per square.

I don't think that we're anywhere near that yet. My best guestimate says that less than a quarter of possible plots are taken, and that seems a very conservative guess, I suspect that in practice its a lot less. Now of that quarter, about half say(?) were built, or at least started, in the initial fortnight after dwellings were first introduced. So that's an average of one eighth of spaces every six months. This gives us about three years until we run out of space.

There's a slightly different issue of prime building spots. On/near outposts (or stations) the beach front down by NH, and so on. Maybe they are starting to run a little low. Does this make having more than one plot on such a square unfair then? I would argue that there's still plenty of space, you just have to go a little further afield. I sort of prefer it the way it is, but I don't have any strong argument for it.

I certainly wouldn't like to see more than four dwellings on a square. Places like IC would end up scrolling off the page with dwellings names if we let it. OK, we could have a higher limit, but still, I prefer that the way it is. This is from the point of view of someone who already has the plots that they want though.

To Hairy Mary's post:
What? If they want to keep a dwelling after an account's been deleted? That makes no sense! D: If your character can be kicked for three months (is it three months?) of inactivity, why is your dwelling allowed to stay?



Sometimes people's accounts disappear for reasons beyond their control. Recently, someone had their account deleted by a room"mate". Things suddenly happen in RL that draw you away for three months at the drop of a hat. It can happen. Sometimes it might just be that the dwellings rather good and worth keeping for people to look round. Something that I can't think of at the moment. Bizarre things have a habit of cropping up in life.


 
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Buddleia
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 03:25 AM UTC  
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There are several people who have lots of undeveloped sites. There are several places where one person has bought up a whole square, either to build separate things, or, seemingly, to prevent others from building on their square. There are lots and lots of sites that have been claimed and then not developed further, ever since shortly after the dwellings module came out (and a few that turned into One-Room-Dwellings, often because others built them). There are some orphaned dwellings; open, locked and Cataclysmed places owned by inactive or deleted players.

If it would be helpful, I could easily make a list of people owning these sites, or the sites themselves - or so could anyone. The Land Registry (tinyurl.com/ii-land-reg) has a map and a list, sortable by owner, dwelling name, coordinates, etc.

(Also, wondering if we should split this discussion off into a separate thread.)


Improbable Reference Links - goo.gl/MRBnb -------------- Land Registry (map of Places) ---- goo.gl/bpkRR
 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 03:39 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana

...Huh. You know, I'd better remember to think before I talk--probably save me some time. Not to mention embarrassment. Okay, so maybe the "we'll run out of space" argument isn't so sound after all. And since I can't explain other than that why a person should only be allowed one plot per square, I'll be quiet till I can come up with a reason. Bad form to argue without an argument.



Because "You'd enjoy it more if it were that way" is a perfectly valid argument. Ultimately, its the only argument. That's what I got from your post, so (assuming that I read it right) it was worth saying.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 04:55 AM UTC  
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Yeah, this needs splitting. I've made a new thread here.


 
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Iriana
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 06:16 AM UTC  
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On a new topic:

I'd love for the IItems screen to permanently sort by quantity, last acquired, or alphabetical. Not permanently, but... like remember your preference for sorting. Now it only changes the sort method for that one session, then reverts to the 'last acquired' default. I'm doing an R6 and have figured out that the only way to beat it at this point is throw a ZAP at every single monster, so my pack is stuffed full of 70 grenades. The devices I currently can play II on are my phone or an ancient computer, and even scrolling down a list of other items to get to the ZAPs to reload my bandolier is sort of painful. It'd save time if I could set it to sort by quantity, so the ZAPs would always be at the top.

Even better, if you could manually rearrange the sorting of your pack, but just the auto sort retaining your preference would still be great.

A tinytiny thing, but it'd certainly make me happy!


 
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Matthew
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 06:30 AM UTC  
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On top of that, I'd still really like an option to have the weights be done by number instead of a graphical bar, or just have a size limiter built in. That greasemonkey script was great for a while, but for some reason it just stopped working a while back. When you have a ton of logs/stones or cards or whatever in your inventory, it stretches the right stat panel off the screen and generally makes the browser lag pretty irritatingly. Happens to both Chrome and Firefox, that I can see.


 
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Cousjava
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 10:06 PM UTC  
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I have. Its up there, on GitHub, in my master branch, with a pull request on it for CMJ to pull it into the proper game. Its up to him. If he doesn't like that format, I can send in the code any way he wants. Gives you a approximate number of how many monsters there are around your outpost, and where's worst off. The module consists of a few alterations to counciloffices, so they they are actually useful, after you have done Mr Stern's quest. You can find it at https://github.com/Cousjava/Improbable-Island

Does that identify breaches? I skimmed the code, didn't see it, but maybe I missed something. (If we want to talk code, though, p'raps we ought to do it on the Labs forum.)




It didn't, but I've made some changes to it, so it now does. In the text it doesn't necessarily say its breached, but often some other words to that effect. However, it will only tell you of the outpost with the most monsters outside it, if more than one are breached simultaneously, as being breached. The updated module is still there on github, waiting to be pulled in by CMJ.

This module does not tell you of the exact threat level. It just gives a general idea of how monsters are out there. Just to make it clear.


A table, a chair, a bowl of fruit and a trombone; what else does a man need to be happy?
 
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Count Sessine
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 10:28 PM UTC  
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I have. Its up there, on GitHub, in my master branch, with a pull request on it for CMJ to pull it into the proper game. Its up to him. If he doesn't like that format, I can send in the code any way he wants. Gives you a approximate number of how many monsters there are around your outpost, and where's worst off. The module consists of a few alterations to counciloffices, so they they are actually useful, after you have done Mr Stern's quest. You can find it at https://github.com/Cousjava/Improbable-Island

Does that identify breaches? I skimmed the code, didn't see it, but maybe I missed something. (If we want to talk code, though, p'raps we ought to do it on the Labs forum.)




It didn't, but I've made some changes to it, so it now does. In the text it doesn't necessarily say its breached, but often some other words to that effect. However, it will only tell you of the outpost with the most monsters outside it, if more than one are breached simultaneously, as being breached. The updated module is still there on github, waiting to be pulled in by CMJ.

This module does not tell you of the exact threat level. It just gives a general idea of how monsters are out there. Just to make it clear.

Mn. I don't think it's necessary to be that cagey. In game-world terms, the council offices are going to be against outposts being overrun by monsters -- and if they can tell you which one's worst off, they have to know about all of them. No reason they should be hiding that information from you.

And for game balance -- the game is not here to frustrate players. It's here to give them the fun of winning against challenging odds. The ones who want to go fight in a breach -- they ought to be able to pick which one they want to tackle. And the ones who can't, right now, ought to be allowed to avoid breaches.

So on both levels, "worst off" really isn't enough information.


 
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Cousjava
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 10:38 PM UTC  
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I have. Its up there, on GitHub, in my master branch, with a pull request on it for CMJ to pull it into the proper game. Its up to him. If he doesn't like that format, I can send in the code any way he wants. Gives you a approximate number of how many monsters there are around your outpost, and where's worst off. The module consists of a few alterations to counciloffices, so they they are actually useful, after you have done Mr Stern's quest. You can find it at https://github.com/Cousjava/Improbable-Island

Does that identify breaches? I skimmed the code, didn't see it, but maybe I missed something. (If we want to talk code, though, p'raps we ought to do it on the Labs forum.)




It didn't, but I've made some changes to it, so it now does. In the text it doesn't necessarily say its breached, but often some other words to that effect. However, it will only tell you of the outpost with the most monsters outside it, if more than one are breached simultaneously, as being breached. The updated module is still there on github, waiting to be pulled in by CMJ.

This module does not tell you of the exact threat level. It just gives a general idea of how monsters are out there. Just to make it clear.

Mn. I don't think it's necessary to be that cagey. In game-world terms, the council offices are going to be against outposts being overrun by monsters -- and if they can tell you which one's worst off, they have to know about all of them. No reason they should be hiding that information from you.

And for game balance -- the game is not here to frustrate players. It's here to give them the fun of winning against challenging odds. The ones who want to go fight in a breach -- they ought to be able to pick which one they want to tackle. And the ones who can't, right now, ought to be allowed to avoid breaches.

So on both levels, "worst off" really isn't enough information.



Sorry. Perhaps I should be clearer it a run through of that the module does.

Firstly, it includes the basic opening of the old council offices, with several added navs. One of the navs asks about the monster situation here (here being the player's location) and in response the player is told the approximate number of monsters surrounding the outpost. The other nav asks where is worst off. In response, the person at the council offices says which outpost has the most monsters, and an approximation (+/-10%) of how many monsters are there. However, if an outpost is overrun, then instead the player gets a message about an outpost being inaccessible/hasn't sent out any messages recently. It doesn't tell you the monsters for a breached outpost because I thought that the people in the counciloffices wouldn't know. As for the rest, I programmed it that way because I though that would be simpler, than outputting a load of raw information.


A table, a chair, a bowl of fruit and a trombone; what else does a man need to be happy?
 
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Count Sessine
 Friday, December 10 2010 @ 11:01 PM UTC  
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Could you, instead of, "Where is worst off?" change that link to "What about other places?" Or, simpler, just merge the two, into, "What's the monster situation?"

The response would be to show you the latest status report on all the outposts. That status would be either an approximation of the number of surrounding monsters, or else an "out of communication" status, which would mean a breach.

...Because if they're in communication with other outposts at all, to be able to say where's worst off, then they have to have all that information in their possession, and they should tell you.

I agree that if an outpost is already breached, the only way to tell how many monsters are running riot there should be to go and look for yourself.


 
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Chimental
 Saturday, December 11 2010 @ 12:29 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Matthew

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I'd LOVE to be able to use the Hunters Lodge items out of the lodge. Change your title/colouring on the fly when doing a scene in a building somewhere? Ten degrees of awesome sauce!



I'd like that too. Sometimes things happen in a scene where the option for a tittle change would be great.



Thirding. Got nothin' to add, just... thirding.



Lemme just bring this back from the depths of the thread. As the man of a thousand characters, I'd like this too. Really much.

So...yeah...Fourthing.


I make the many models of a mutant individual. To make them I use vegetables, animals, and minerals. From robot bugs to zombie bears to many singing barnacles.
 
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