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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, October 28 2008 @ 07:22 PM UTC (Read 10373 times)  
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Split off from the main game economy topic, to help keep all the info properly organized.

I reckon we should remove the option to take goods out of a vending machine, and remove the option to change the price unless the machine is empty. Upon putting something into the machine, the player must pay a 5% or 10% sales tax up-front. This should help keep prices sensible.


 
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Anonymous: crashtestpilot
 Tuesday, October 28 2008 @ 07:39 PM UTC  


What we really want to have done with vending:
a) reduce grind. I need to be able to drop my crap into the vending machine all at once, not item by item. Cigs, scrap, three grenades, plus whatever I picked up on the Island that day takes about five minutes. Should take 1/5 of that.
b) If you really care about pricing, I think the sales tax idea could work. However, see next point.
c) What's really needed is a way of hanging onto stuff between DKs. We're using the VMs to be able to build up massive supplies of ciggies so we can buy things that cost massive amounts of ciggies. If you care about VM prices, just give us a way to locker our stuff. Right now, I use scrap and ciggies as a method of transferring req so I can continue to gift/donate to clan. Give us lockers, and the VMs will be returned to their original purpose.
all best,
~Crash


 
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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, October 28 2008 @ 08:04 PM UTC  
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What do you need lockers for? None of the stuff that goes in Vending machines gets taken away at DK.


 
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Icterid
 Tuesday, October 28 2008 @ 08:16 PM UTC  
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I think ciggies are the only thing people "store" in a VM to prevent from losing in the game. All other items don't get lost during regular gameplay, except for Trading Post stuff at the end of a DK. Personally, I'd love to see a way to store sugar/tea/coffee, or at least have a chance of keeping them through a DK, but that might lead to more amassing of cigs and reqs. Anyway, my original point - if there was a way to store ciggies (like in the bank) then people wouldn't use the VMs as a storage locker. However, losing ciggies is part of the risk involved in Swatting the pinata, etc... and by stashing ciggies, you take away that risk, and make it a win-win situation.

Not allowing people to remove items from the VM would certainly cause people to sell only the things they really want to sell. However, by not allowing a price change, if someone either makes a typo and adds an extra 0, or prices items too high, then no one will ever buy the items, so that person's vending machine is rendered useless (at least, for that type of item). I think if items are not removable, then the price should be flexible, according to the market needs. If the player increases the cost from what it was previously set, though, an extra tax should apply, but if they lower it, they shouldn't be taxed again (or perhaps a nominal price-change fee). That way people won't set an item initially at a low cost to pay a low tax, and then bump up the cost later for free.

I do like the sales tax idea, though. It might inflate prices marginally, so players can recover the taxed req, but it does require a bit more consideration before placing an item in the vending machine.

If you restrict price flexibility, though, I don't think the tax will be necessary, because once the price is set, it can never be changed. So if someone prices an item too high, they risk never selling the item, and gaining no benefit in the long run. Since they can't ever retrieve the item, then they basically threw it away.

One flaw with using "lockers" (currently VMs) as a human is that you can stash your grenades every day, and keep getting more and more if you never use them. I think I've collected 30 or so of each that way, without really trying hard. While it's useful for players with no clan buff for facing the drive, I don't often use them and thus have a constant supply of req if I need it. Which I don't, since I get enough from scavenging. Which is a whole other topic.


 
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Deadmeat
 Tuesday, October 28 2008 @ 08:28 PM UTC  
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The up-front sales charge idea is great one. Please implement it immediately.
That said, I think that players should have the option of removing their items from the machine.

I'd like to see it run more like an auction house:
Items should be visible Island-wide, not merely in a single town.
Machines should be blind. No one should be able to see who is selling what, merely that the items are for sale.
Post only the lowest 5 (or so) individual prices for a selected commodity.
When putting an item up for sale, the player should be able to see the last few sales prices for that item.
A player coming in to buy an item can opt to pay the lowest price available, but unless they're quick, they may not get it (once an item is sold, it's sold.) so they may opt to pay a higher listed price instead.

Just my 2 Req, though.

As far as using the Vending machines as a locker, well, um, not to put too fine a point on it, but if the risk of losing a cig to the pinata is too much for you, well, don't take the swing. The sales charge should take care of that, anyway. Just make sure that players can remove all of an item or none. If you want to insulate yourself against the loss of one of your 50 cigs by putting them in the Emporium at 100,000 each, be prepared to spend 500,000 req every time you do it. When does the risk become worth less than the insurance you're paying for it?


 
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Icterid
 Tuesday, October 28 2008 @ 08:47 PM UTC  
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I think by making the items visible island-wide, we would see another inflation in high-demand items because they'd be easier to find. Rich players (which we should have fewer of, with the other changes being made) would be able to gobble up all the cheap ciggies across the entire island at once, leaving only the more expensive ones, which eventually will be bought up, etc...

However, I do like the idea of island-wide availability in order to find some items that people don't often put up for sale, like various scrap metals. But perhaps changing the city vending displays to show only the items that are present would be a better fix for that problem (well, not so much of a problem, more of just an extra slow step in wading through the VMs - I've encountered "no one has that item, it seems" far too often).

I do think it's an interesting idea to consider storing ciggies as buying insurance for them...


 
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Hairy Mary
 Tuesday, October 28 2008 @ 11:39 PM UTC  
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Minor point. People seem to be under the impression that if there are no names connected to vending machines then we can never know who's is who's. Not so. If people want to use these for wealth transfer, then they can just charge strange numbers. For example if they want to give 50 000 to someone then they can arrange that "My machines the one selling zap grenades for 49,974 req." If someone else is already selling for 49,974, then make it 49,973 instead.
It's not going to take long before that ones worked out. It took me about a day. (OK I'm a mathematician and I know a (very) little about information, but still) I've posted it here. Assume its well known.


 
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Daychilde
 Tuesday, October 28 2008 @ 11:55 PM UTC  
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There's a loop-hole on grenades right now. If you stash your unused grenades in the vending machines, you get those back the next day. The cost is the time to do it, so I usually don't... :-/

I wish each day there was a simple +1 to inventory.

Of course, one thing I miss from the Kingdom of Loathing was the mall - you could spend hours and hours and days and days playing the mall, and it keeps a significant percentage of the hearts playing KoL...

I wish the menus were easier to navigate - that it didn't take something like 10 clicks to put a grenade in the vending machine... a streamlined page to add multiple items and price (think, if nothing else, of a big table where rows are vendable items; first column is your on-hand, second column you enter the number to add to vend, third you set the price, and fourth shows you how many are in the vending machine... From the city, you go Vending Machines -> Manage Your Machine to get to this page. BAM. Done. Also, using a negative number on the "add" field takes that many out)


 
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Anonymous: crashtestpilot
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 01:47 AM UTC  


Dear Joe,
You asked something to the effect of "What do we need lockers for, as nothing in VM goes away between drive kills."
I completely agree -- the VM acts as a locker. No argument there.
My point is, if you don't want the VM to BE a locker, then give us a locker.
If you want the VM to be a method where people ONLY sell stuff, rather than warehouse it for future use, then give us a locker, so we don't taint the VM system with our storage needs.
Otherwise, you can expect that the VM will continue to do double duty -- commerce system, and storage.
And, as I noted in my rather substantial post in the economy thread, the VM is also the primary method of transferring wealth between players.
The question is whether these three aspects of the VM system were intended, and if they weren't, how best to parse the storage, wealth transfer, and commerce functions into separate entities without a) making a lot of work for yourself, b) alienating existing players, and c) creating a system that works even less well than the VM.

Am enjoying this dialog and your rapid feedback. It makes me feel as if I am being heard, and that perhaps my feedback re: your splendid creation is of some value.

Thanks.

Yours,

~Crash


 
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Anonymous: uselessly anonymous
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 01:52 AM UTC  


Ciggies vs. scrap for wealth transfer.
I've been using scrap as currency. 10k for a can, 20k for a piston ring, 50 for an alloy trim, etc.
If it's an object in the game, and I can set a price, I can use it as a mechanism for transferring wealth.
That's what markets just plain are.
And virtual economies are no exception.


 
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halfrikaner
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 04:08 AM UTC  
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Quote by: crashtestpilot

Dear Joe,
You asked something to the effect of "What do we need lockers for, as nothing in VM goes away between drive kills."
I completely agree -- the VM acts as a locker. No argument there.


I think he more was referring to the fact that any item one CAN sell in their vending machine will not go away after a DK, regardless of whether or not it's in the VM. Your ciggies, scrap, energy drinks, etc. don't disappear after a DK, right?

My point is, if you don't want the VM to BE a locker, then give us a locker.
If you want the VM to be a method where people ONLY sell stuff, rather than warehouse it for future use, then give us a locker, so we don't taint the VM system with our storage needs.[/p]

I think this is part of what we want to avoid. There's no reason anyone should need a warehouse. It serves two purposes: 1) To cheat the grenade replenishment system so that a player can stockpile grenades. 2)To take away the possibility of ever losing a cig, which is silly. The reason you have a choice about whether or not to swat at the pinata is because it might make you lose something. It gives a chance of a reward to players who are risk-takers and an option to opt out to those who are more risk-averse.

And, as I noted in my rather substantial post in the economy thread, the VM is also the primary method of transferring wealth between players.[/p]

This here is exactly the biggest problem with vending machines. Vending machines should be used as a means of transferring wealth only insofar as it transfers wealth from those who want to purchase goods to those who want to sell them. They should NOT be used to transfer wealth between players as a means of amassing large amounts of req or making monetary gifts instead of stuff from sheila's. That's part of what allowed clans to build up such huge amounts of money and led to the inflation problem we're trying to solve.

I wholeheartedly support the ideas of blind vending machines (both anonymous and limited to showing the cheapest 5/6 for an item), and disabling the option of removing goods from vending machines. These two will seem to severely inhibit the ability to use vending machines for anything other than selling goods.

On the other hand, I disagree with CMJ about the up-front sales tax. I think it unfairly hurts newer/lower level players. In my mind (perhaps I'm out of the norm in thinking this), the point of vending machines is to sell goods when one needs quick cash. This happens most often at low levels when people want to purchase better armor/weapons, and especially for people in their first few drive kills, because they still have almost no permanent attack/defense modifiers and rarely have powerful clan buffs. An up-front tax could force low level and new players who wanted to use the VMs to price their goods abnormally low, resulting in a price that is below the actual market value. If the purpose is a req sink, then the tax can be just as effective afterward. If it's to discourage inflated prices and wealth transfers, that could be handled through the blind system. If it's to discourage using it as storage, disallowing removal of items would have the same result.

I also think that people should be able to adjust the price of the goods in their vending machines. As has been stated, typos could render your VM completely useless. Also, disallowing bargaining (in this case, implied bargaining through viewing trends and adjusting prices accordingly) can't possibly fix a failing market. I imagine the reason for having fixed prices would be to allow the up-front tax, but, as I said, I think a sales tax assessed at the time of sale can be just as effective and less biased against weaker/poorer players.


 
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Anonymous: crashtestpilot
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 06:10 AM UTC  


Really enjoyed your post Halfrikaner. I think you raise some very salient points, and have also helped me to refine my argument a bit further.

You point out that the POINT of vending machines is to facilitate those with goods who wish to sell reaching those who wish to buy them.

I have no argument with this perspective. I completely agree that facilitating commercial interactions may have been the primary objective.

But I feel I must abstract this one level, beyond the intention of the computer program, or what it was intended to do. I view the VM system as a mechanism that enables commerce by enabling a transfer of a quantity of one object (in this case, a number in a database, called req), for a smaller quantity of another object (say, Bang! Grenades).

Anytime one facilitates a transaction between two entities, the transaction is just that -- a transaction. What purpose the individual had in putting something up for sale cannot be determined by the program that Joe has created. Nor can the buyer's intent be divined. Or regulated.

Any transactional mechanism between two players may be used for any purpose the players devise, ultimately. And if it becomes a path to game success, then it will be used. Perhaps by a minority of players, or perhaps by everyone.

Rather than toy with the market, then, the only real way to regulate player conduct is to create penalties (IE, Joe's suggested taxation system) for certain kinds of transactions, or provide rewards for virtuous conduct.

But lets look at what defines success in the game. For some, it's socializing. For others, it's amassing drivekills. Some look at success of their clan as a reward. Others may look at amassing hit points, or wealth, or number of PKs, or -- back when Glory meant something -- having the highest glory score, or hat size, or whathaveyou. Highest charm, perhaps. Or being able to bang out a truckload of 90Kw Stunguns.

If these are the success metrics, then the pathways to achieving those ends illuminate themselves. Since we're talking about VMs, let's restrict ourselves to req generation. It is now the primary feedstock for outpost takeover through the new political system. Prior to this need for a reqsink, owing to the "infinite cash" exploit, req was largely valueless -- except for gifting, and buying up lots of ciggies, which translated into more hitpoints and more charm by way of long-term value. Also mansions and clanbuffage.

Now, amassing millions of req to maintain clan prestige over townships is an imperative for many clan-members.

In my own case, I was content before to have about 1-2 million on hand. That was relatively easy to generate and maintain. And I used the vending system to keep it in rotation, and growing. I dropped about 3/4 of that during the town takeovers.

The VM system is the primary method of maintaining a corpus of cash that keeps growing.
Personally, I like it. It's nice to be able to help the clan, gift at will, and buy snazzy 300k armor if I'm feeling like I want something special to wear out on the town.

I just think it's unrealistic to expect markets to do what you want them to by tinkering with them. The best way to adjust a market is to define what success in the game looks like, by looking at what players do in the game to reach their definition of success.

Hajen likes PKing. Demosthenes likes being number one. Some, like Sessine, appear to really enjoy exploring the permutations of the system, and being extraordinarily nice to people. Actually, Sessine, you -- I'd have a beer with.

Enable the paths to success, or define new ones, and folks will beat a path to it.

Candidly, I think NOTHING needs to be done about the infinite wealth exploit now that it's fixed. Little needs to be done to vending, other than to enable folks to do it easier and faster.
Enabling players to develop new content. Creating new mounts, new areas to explore, keeping folks moving about the island discovering new things, rather than grinding toward having the most drive kills, and strewing a few req-sinks along the way -- that's what contributes to the color and appeal of the game, and what will enable it to grow.

I think game developers, once a game is launched, need to pay more attention to making features, rather than being overly concerned with bugs. Particularly with markets, which are slippery things at best.

Christ, I sound like a free market wingnut. In reality, I'm a gardener. Sometimes stuff doesn't turn out the way you planned, but it can be pretty darned wonderful, just the same.

Hope some of that made sense.

~Crash


 
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halfrikaner
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 07:47 AM UTC  
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Thanks, Crash. A lot of that made sense. And, now that I'm taking a moment to stop and wait a sec, I'm curious how well the closing of the infinite req exploit has helped reign in the inflation. I mean, if that combined with the req sink of the political council doohickies is effective enough, not much else needs to be done right now. Perhaps it's time to sit back and wait for a bit to see how things play out.

I do have to respectfully disagree about how much control a game developer can have over the intentions of sales through regulation. As you say, the only (reasonable) way to control a market is through incentives (penalties or subsidies), but those incentives or disincentives don't have to be direct monetary ones. For example, the blind vending machine system, if properly implemented (which could be tricky for goods that aren't as commonly traded through VMs), would provide a disincentive to using VMs to transfer wealth, because it would require large quantities of items changing hands as well, making it less convenient (i.e. there'd be a penalty of higher time/energy costs).

But you are completely right that the developer's original intent should not under (almost) any circumstances supercede the prevailing ideas of the players of the game. If this forum is any indication, most players have no problem with the vending machines, and, honestly, I don't have a personal problem with them functioning the way they do. My only major concern is that the people who frequent these message boards and actually post are a very vocal minority that may or may not be representative of the average player or, equally important for the growth of the game, the average potential player. If the current system is leading to a much lower retention rate for new players, we need to fix that. My thought was that part of this might be due to the current VM system favoring established players too much (based on the fact that I was REALLY excited when I realized I could by cigs for like 8-15k when I had extra towards the end of my first couple DKs and really sad when I noticed that the prices had become ludicrously high and buying them (even in small quantities) wasn't really an option anymore). But this was just an assumption on my part (and we all know that makes a son of a budget horse out of you and me).

Hmmm... so I guess I don't know where I stand. In my ideal game, the system for trading goods would be designed in a way that provided strong disincentives against using it as a method of amassing wealth, and if people were tenacious enough to try to do it anyway, good for them. I totally approve of perseverance. But this isn't my ideal game, and I wouldn't want it to be, because then it wouldn't reflect the views of this awesome community. So, if people are in favor of most of these things sticking the way they are, and if CMJ's fixed things enough that there are fewer disincentives for new players to stick around then I'm happy.

Although not nearly as happy as I'd be if there was a portal to my clan hall from the failboat. Seriously! There's nothing that makes me more of a sad panda (or sad spiderkitty, if you prefer) than when I want to use up all my turns before hanging out in the clan hall and I die with like 5 hours before the next day... as a midget/mutant... with no favor enhancing equipment on. I mean, the clanhall is located in every town already, and it'd be pretty IMPROBABLE if there was a passage to it on the failBOAT.


 
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Anonymous: crashtestpilot
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 02:36 PM UTC  


Enjoying the dialogue, Halfrikaner. Much appreciate your well-thought out replies.

Just so I don't make every post a lengthy manifesto, I'll do this one bullet-style.

a) Re: price controls/taxation of vending -- Yes, incentives and disincentives do modify behavior. Works in the real world. Human nature doesn't change that much between online and IRL mediums. My larger point was the best way to regulate is look at the world you've built, and the multiple paths to success. Someone cited the heart/diamond/club/spade paper on types of gamers earlier in another thread. That applies here as well. (IE, social success, wealth amassing, powergaming, PKing [respectively] as paths for the enjoyment of different types of gamers.)
If you, as a game designer look at success pathways FIRST, perhaps tweaking them so excessive wealth is NOT any kind of assistance, then the MARKET will subordinate itself to assisting those pathways. A market is a means. Define the ENDS, and the means takes care of itself.

b) Corollary: Amassing wealth at this time assists all success pathways. Gifting (social); clan control of outposts (also social, but potentially a benefit to those seeking drivekills.) More goodies = more flawless victories = more DKs. Wealth is also an end for its own sake, and can even assist PKers who get great weapons by level 5 to assist their hunt for fellow players.

c) Your specific wish for a connection to the failboat from your clan hall is a bit off-topic, but resonates enough with an earlier post of mine that I wanted to comment.
What if the failboat had a LOCATION? That you could get to? I mean, the Ferryman takes you there from time to time - but as a prisoner, not as a guest. Guest visits to the failboat could be a valuable social function. Ferries from seaports (NH, CC404) could facilitate it. Or renting a rowboat. Or a setting on the one-shot teleporter.

d) My overall thesis is that a market/exchange is a tool. It only facilitates success pathways. Tweak the success pathways and you change the market behavior without tweaking the market. Tweaking the market alone can change things in a limited way, but also invites players to look for other means to succeed in their chosen path. Tweak the paths, and you change what purpose the market ultimately serves going forward.


That's it. Time to get coffee.

~Crash


 
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Icterid
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 04:09 PM UTC  
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So currently the VM system functions in a similar way that a clan bank would, except it requires more strategy and planning to engineer the transactions, and then one player has the req, instead of a module. The VM system could be changed in a way that would make req-amassing very difficult (e.g., only displaying the 5 lowest-priced items) but then you would lose the social clan interactions. To moderately make up for that, you could institute a clan bank for req, and allow the clans to save up money to spend on whatever they choose - political power, for now. Perhaps other goodies in the future. This direction would take away the social aspect of req-amassing, but it would still allow for it to happen in a way that's used to benefit the clan instead of being used to transfer money for a single player's benefit).

It seems to make sense that we have a means of collecting both cigs and req, anyway.

This would, of course, favor the larger clans with high-level players that can generate millions of req within a day or two... but maybe there's a way to curb that somehow? Limits on how much a single player can donate per day? Or maybe you can only donate up to a certain percentage of the total, so you have to get other players to contribute in order to donate more?


 
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CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 04:45 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Icterid

This would, of course, favor the larger clans with high-level players that can generate millions of req within a day or two... but maybe there's a way to curb that somehow? Limits on how much a single player can donate per day? Or maybe you can only donate up to a certain percentage of the total, so you have to get other players to contribute in order to donate more?



I want to get something straight, because it seems I might be headed towards making mistakes in the opposite direction here - I don't want to punish success. If a player finds a strategy that works for them and gives them success, then good for them. I just want to keep a couple of principles in place, to avoid getting into this mess in the future:

1. You can't just pull money out of your ass.
2. Req goes away at DK, Cigs don't. That's why we have two currencies, and why one is used for permanent things and the other is used for temporary things.

Most LotGD admins would tell me that I'm mad for even allowing players to buy gems (cigs) with gold (req) and that it will lead to a server that needs resetting every six months. Likewise, they'd tell me I was mad for allowing transfer of wealth between players at all.

(I have no plans to stop Cigarette vending any time soon - the players set the price, and it's usually high enough that it's not an issue)


 
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crashtestpilot
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 06:38 PM UTC  
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There are several primary methods for req generation in game.
a) Killing stuff.
b) Random events (malfunctioning camerae, etc.)
c) PKing players who foolishly have req on them.
d) Scavenging
e) Trading post
f) Pricing stuff at vending machines so that it moves, rather than collects dust.
g) Maxing interest at bank via playing so that one has zero turns -- a function of both activity, as well as keeping an eye on having a substantial corpus of req. Today, I netted around a quarter million between three characters, all of whom I actively play. (I don't believe in making use of stand-in characters as reqholders. I think if I'm going to use system resources, I should be active in all three of my identities.)

There are also several primary methods for generating ciggies in game.
a) Trading post activity, contingent on TMB encounters.
b) Buying cigs from players who post them in the VMs at affordable prices. I bought 12 today.
c) Killing stuff.
d) Random events (cameras, stonehenge, et al).
e) Visiting places in cities (Lucky Dip, Haunted House)
f) DK seeking that ends in failure to find DK, but sometimes a cache of ciggies.


The best methods for generating req (IE req-ass-pulling) are:
a) High scavenging level. At 22 DKs today, I made 50k from Scavenging. Granted I took 11 days to work up enough scrap, but hey, it's a living.
b) Getting to level 5 quickly enough to reap what you made from your VM, assuming you were 1) in a clan/cabal/financial partnership with friends that bought your crap at above market rates, or 2) had things reasonably priced so they moved.
c) Having high enough stats, and maxing turns so that you turn into a killing/req-making machine. I average about 10-15k a day at this point -- and I have paltry double-digit DKs.

With one of my other (lower level/single digit DK) personae, I can have NO scrap, fight nekkid, and get to level 5 in two game days, and buy my armor/weapon myself.

Question is, does any of this qualify as being able to pull req out of my butt?
I don't think so. I worked hard to scav at the level I'm at -- I try to not miss any of those turns.
I'm at a level where getting to level 5 directly following a DK is a matter of using Heidi's, Crazy Audrey, drinking from the stream, visiting the kissing booth, and hitting the pinata, as well as paying attention to how I fight. I have a warehouse of grenades, and often, I need not use a saved day to hit level 5 where I can re-enter the vending economy, and buy killer armor and weapons.
At my current scav level, however, I'm finding myself increasingly wading out into the jungle wearing scrap armor and weapons all the way to my next DK. Shiela's Shack of Shiny is now where I pick up any gifts. But largely, through increasing my hitpoints, offense and defense, and having a goodly supply of grenades, I don't need to buy the latest version of ye olde bacon suit to perform well. I bought the red armor once, just to see. Now I'm hoarding cash to defend outposts from takeover. And possibly to takeover other outposts for the glory of the clan.

The fact remains that the game performs differently for players at different levels. At earlier levels, one strategy was to stay at level 1 as long as possible, until my sensei sought me out so as not to bleed req in the hospital tent. I now find I visit the hospital tent 1 out of 10 encounters, because my SWEET clan buffs are maxed.

Earlier in the game, I used henchmen to increase my offensive power and fieldhealing.
Clan membership changed all that.

I use the existing systems to keep a pile of req available for clan causes and gifting.

I mention none of this to gloat -- I can gloat alone, in front of a monitor.
I'm saying all of this, and being quite candid, to illustrate one use case for a non-exceptional player, so that CMJ/Dan can take note, and build the game he wants to create. I'm just a mouse in the maze offering feedback on how he found the labyrinth's difficulty, and noting the quality of the cheese at the end.

Just hoping some of this is helpful. I've got carpal, so I don't type for fun anymore.

All my best,

~Crash





 
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Daychilde
 Wednesday, October 29 2008 @ 11:16 PM UTC  
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Minor note: I've written elsewhere about the paradigm of the four suits of players... One of the things that "Diamond" players like to do is show off their wealth -- so you will have people collecting items and putting them up for sale at prices that guarantee they won't actually sell. Solution is: Let them display there, or let them display elsewhere (generate stats on the top collections of each item, or give everyone a display case or something where players who are interested can go to see who has how much of what).

When you search for items - cheapest displays first - so you can ignoe the items over the price you want to pay.

I also think that the market will generally fairly price items according to supply and demand. Items that are plentiful will naturally sell for less; items that are scarce and plentiful will sell for more.

I think the problem right now is that req is a little unbalanced, such that items are worth unnaturally high amounts of req. But I better stop there - it's already off the strict topic; but I only bring it up here because it *is* a part of the vending machine issue Smile


 
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Bodoni
 Thursday, October 30 2008 @ 11:10 AM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Split off from the main game economy topic, to help keep all the info properly organized.

I reckon we should remove the option to take goods out of a vending machine, and remove the option to change the price unless the machine is empty. Upon putting something into the machine, the player must pay a 5% or 10% sales tax up-front. This should help keep prices sensible.

If you want to keep prices sensible, then charge the sales tax only on items sold OVER a reasonable price. Say you think that Item X should be sold at 20K req...then require the sales tax on items that are listed at 20K+. Charge the tax on the entire price.

Or you could just put price ceilings on items.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Thursday, October 30 2008 @ 02:32 PM UTC  
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I don't particularly want to put price ceilings on items - I'd rather negate the need for them than put them in.

People have been talking in other threads about the uselessness of the Trading module. How about if we combine this with the Vending module, via a list of people willing to buy equipment as well as those selling it? That way, commodities being traded actually have some worth, and aren't just tokens to be traded for more wealth.


 
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