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dizzyizzy
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 05:43 PM UTC  
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I don't like lists of trusted people. That sounds awful, and like it will make the island even cliqueisher.


 
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Buddleia
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 06:46 PM UTC  
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Everything I can think of would penalise the innocent far more than it would prevent dickishness. Automated systems, rules, etc. There are certain alts that I would like to see who they belong to, but, mostly, it's none of my business.

My best idea is for there to be an assumption that it is ok to ask, and ok to say, and equally ok to say "I don't want to say" - with no hurt feelings. If things come to dickishness, surely that's for the moderators to check up on the narrator, rather than the players to be suspicious about.

Perhaps, if a player has good reason to suspect dickishness but the probable-alt will not say, it would be allowed to ask the moderators to check? Even if they only say "Yes, they are an alt" rather than "They are XXX's third alt and the others are Y and Z" (not that Z, obviously).


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Zolotisty
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 06:51 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Buddleia

Perhaps, if a player has good reason to suspect dickishness but the probable-alt will not say, it would be allowed to ask the moderators to check? Even if they only say "Yes, they are an alt" rather than "They are XXX's third alt and the others are Y and Z".



Anybody can already do that. Smile


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Makiwa
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 06:56 PM UTC  
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Being responsible for raising this topic in another thread and no, I won't be drawn into discussing specifics but will add this from Maniak in the other thread:

How does exposing alts benefits the community?


The answer is clear, I think. It doesn't. If it's a not benefit can it.

Restricting player's alts, any mechanism that reveals them publicly - trust buttons etc. adds up to a can of greasy foul smelling worms waiting to be unleashed. Much trouble with ensue I suspect.

I also suspect that part of Clever Dick/King Dick's personality trait leads inevitably to discovery sooner or later.

Alts in clans? The decision is up to the clan leaders to make it known via clan policy and/or bye-laws.

There have always been dicks, always will be. As has been said - deal with it!

The (mostly) excellent II community is intelligent and responsible enough to ensure that the inappropriate actions of the few will not spoil the game for the rest of us. Mini-mods I think there are aplenty already. Excellent mods are one step up the chain and a certain gent with the power of ban is, thankfully, available and accessible.

I suggest forgetting about the alt visibility thing altogether and getting on with IL.

EDIT saw this after I posted:

My best idea is for there to be an assumption that it is ok to ask, and ok to say, and equally ok to say "I don't want to say" - with no hurt feelings. If things come to dickishness, surely that's for the moderators to check up on the narrator, rather than the players to be suspicious about


Yes.


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Ebenezer
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 07:52 PM UTC  
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I spend lots of time seatdancing to shitty rap, for your information, Zeeeee!

----

My vote is that I do not want this proposed "how many alts" feature.
And I'm not liking the sound of the "trust" button either.

I do think that anonymity is an important feature to alts. (Not a necessary feature, but makes them a lot more versatile and a lot more fun, for sure.) A few dickish people shouldn't get to ruin it for everyone else.

I think dizzyizzy's "this person has alts" (with no specific number) idea is a bit closer, but I'm not sure I can hop on-board with this one either. It seems like it's just opening the door for needless suspicion and merciless pokings, "I see you have an alt! Who is your alt? You can tell me! Don't you trust me? Can you give me a hint? Have I met your alt?" (and so forth.) Seems like it'd be less heart-ache for everyone if it's just left the way it is.

Note: I have magical powers and I can see everyone's alts. And I also have no alts of my own.
My opinion's based on my RP experience prior to my magical powers: my experience playing with my friends' RP alts.


 
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Beeps
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 09:11 PM UTC  
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There is one time where I could see having an alt list be beneficial. For when we have rookies claiming to be dragons/demons/kittymorphs/jokers/whatever. Since these sorts of things seem to generally be more acceptable if you're a vet and the character is made for a specific purpose (A troll in the dungeon?), knowing that this person isn't a rookie would be nice. Yes, I'm aware that it's hypocritical of me to harp on rookies who aren't playing humans.


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Trowa
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 09:14 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Okay folks, there's been some dickishness involving alts lately. Time to discuss what we can do about it. [...] Obviously saying outright who's an alt of who isn't gonna go down well

[snip]

Before this goes further I should point out that we're not differentiating mains from alts, because programs can't do that.

[snip]

The ONLY thing we are talking about is adding the line I talked about above.[...]

What I'm trying to instigate here is basically a warning before people get themselves hurt. [...]

WARNING: You are being lied to.

(Emphasis added)

I think that gets to the core of the issue here; people who use alts to break Rule 1. How do we solve that?

This issue seems to come down to two sides: Those who use alts don't want to be auto-flagged (for various reasons), and some who don't use alts want alts flagged. We've established that mods can see alts, and that at least one mod will reveal to others if someone is using an alt. In my opinion, this is all we need.

I hate to be that guy, but if people "get themselves hurt" because someone breaks Rules 1 and 3 and we set up an automatic feature to flag the alt, then I think that hurts the validity of Rule 2 and destroys the necessity of Rule 3. "This is, after all, only a silly Internet game."

Since there's no way to differentiate alts from mains via special accounts or something, I just feel there isn't a good cookie-cutter method that will be accepted by the community, so I have to sit in Mak and Budd's camp: If you suspect an alt and/or abuse, ask a mod. If you've been cheated by an alt (either by spending req or points on them, or giving them items), I wouldn't be surprised if the mods can help there, too. Heck, so far in my experience, all the mods are very friendly people, so at the very least they can try to make you feel better if your feelings have been hurt, right?


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Zolotisty
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 09:46 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Beeps

There is one time where I could see having an alt list be beneficial. For when we have rookies claiming to be dragons/demons/kittymorphs/jokers/whatever. Since these sorts of things seem to generally be more acceptable if you're a vet and the character is made for a specific purpose (A troll in the dungeon?), knowing that this person isn't a rookie would be nice. Yes, I'm aware that it's hypocritical of me to harp on rookies who aren't playing humans.


Neutral

From the basic RP guide:

With time comes magical writing powahz:
Although there are lots of exceptions, most peoples' characters show up on the Island as humans, with human abilities. There are lots of characters with spooky-super-cool-oh-my-gosh powers on the Island, and you can write one too - - in some cases, right off the bat, but in most others, after you've stuck around for a little bit. As people get to know you and your character's story, they'll believe more of what you have to say. There's this thing called 'suspended disbelief' in writing where you can get your audience to accept whatever wacky premise you throw out there as long as you've established some (subjectively) logical reasons for it. You'll automatically earn that privilege over time. If you want it from the get-go, you'll have to carefully convince your audience that your character deserves whatever crazysexyhot abilities you're giving them.


Rookies can write whatever they like, just the same as vets. The bit about suspended disbelief is to let people coming in know that they'll have the easiest time getting people to accept their oddball premise if they present the idea with panache. And, from the advanced RP guide:

You can't tell anyone else how to play make believe:
(...) If everyone seems to be having a good time, what does it matter if you think whatever they're doing is dumb or boring?


So no. Not beneficial. Super detrimental, actually.


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Beeps
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 09:59 PM UTC  
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Sorry, I didn't realize you redefined what other players will want to interact with since I joined. :V The DK requirement for races should be removed, then.


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Zolotisty
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 10:17 PM UTC  
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The Enquirer is a space where you're expected to follow all of the site's usual rules, Beeps. You've got the same responsibility for your actions and behavior here as you do in the actual game. Snide kneejerk comments, eyeah. Nothx.

But back to the discussion at hand.


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Temper
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 10:20 PM UTC  
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Noooooo! The Dk requirement gives a sense of accomplishment to me. I worked to be a Joker the way the way it is. Also, having to work up to Joker helps new RPers get a handle on how to RP here, before they have sudden super-magical powers. That's what it's for (I think?). The part about Rookies being whatever they want to be is absolutely true, but it is generally easy to tell that if they can provide good, backstory reasons (And good backstories) for their characters, then they are a bit more ready to be whatever super-monster-gundam-wolf-mabob they want to be. But I know when I showed up, if I had been able to be a Joker right away, it would have been full of awful. Because I wasn't very good, in the beginning. Eek! (This is the closest to an O face I could find).

I don't know if I expressed that very well.


Also, things like the trust button, as it has been said, are potential quagmires of hurt feelings and unhappiness.


I guess I'm trying to say, the working up thing is like training wheels for those of us who aren't the best RPers, and shouldn't have powers right off the bat. Like me. I dunno. I've managed to confuse myself.
Again.


 
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Beeps
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 10:27 PM UTC  
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Having a list of alts in the player's profile would be rather privacy-breeching, and anything less is essentially useless and would likely cause more witch hunts than help. Alts will (generally, from my experience) alert players to the fact that it's not their first character in Banter in some way, whether intentional or not. People claiming to be other people for the sake of deception falls under rule 1.

Temper: My point was that given that the updated RP guidelines state "You can be anything you want and that's your right, no one can say otherwise," then there's no reason to restrict race choices. With possibly the exception of Jokers, the actual game-side abilities are pretty balancing anyway.


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Matthew
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 11:16 PM UTC  
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To throw my two cents in, I think the best option is the simplest and most well-endorsed in this thread, so it seems: do nothing. Like Buddleia said, any restrictions or rules seems more intent on punishing the innocent more than anything else, and it's just unnecessary when mods can already see alts and can deal with them on a case-by-case basis, as needed.

I've always like that the No Alts rule is a bit of a 'soft' rule, in the sense that it's totally okay to break, but only if you don't break the other two rules in the doing so. I don't think this should go away, because I think alts are a very good thing. I've had a couple RP alts in my time, and I'd know I'd go a bit crazy if I had to play the same damn character all the time.

Again, like Algus and others have said, because we don't even know what our suggestions are meant to even prevent, it's very hard to make any reasonable ones.

So, yeah. Keep things as they are, and let mods deal with the occasional spout of dickery. Isn't that what they, well, do?

Kimmy: your small text makes me want to stab my eyes out. IRONY, AWAY!


 
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Iriana
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 11:49 PM UTC  
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I'm kind of thinking it's all or nothing, here. Either reveal the names of everyone's alts (reduces possibility for dickery, but also reduces possibility for fun; may make people unhappy and break up friendships; drops probability of alts being created) or let alt issues be dealt with the way they've always been dealt with: through our mods. The indicator line brings up suspicions that it then doesn't help deal with, so it's not a happy medium between those extremes.

Unless there's a reason why problems with alts can't be handled by mods, I personally think that that's the best way to go. I feel that it keeps things quiet, and minimizes drama--just a swift bolt of lightning from the heavens, and all the problems are gone. (Or at least swept safely under the rug.)

I think a more solid alt policy, written clearly and appended to Material You Should Read Before Playing, would certainly help. What are things that absolutely shouldn't be done? What is a hypothetical example of things that can and should be done?

One thing, though.

Quote by: CavemanJoe
WARNING: Your clan and several others are run by the same man.

I have nothing against alts in different clans. Contrary to what some people have said, I do believe that it makes it a lot easier to interact with people if you're clanmates. If it's fun, doesn't piss off your leaders and other clanfolk, and lets you talk to more people, then great!

I do strongly dislike having alts be leaders to different clans. Members is one thing--officers are pushing it--but leaders? Leaders should have a commitment to one clan, and it's unfair to all their members if people are running clans through alts--it leaves the clans short, with only half or a third or a quarter of the attention that they should be getting. If it's possible, I'd like to request that IP-alts be disallowed from leading more than one clan.


 
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hajen
 Monday, March 28 2011 @ 11:53 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

What I'm trying to instigate here is basically a warning before people get themselves hurt.

WARNING: You are about to have sex with someone you hate.
WARNING: Your clan and several others are run by the same man.
WARNING: You are standing up for the feminist principles of a misogynist troll pretending to be a female Rookie.
WARNING: You are being lied to.

Now that I understand what you were looking for, all the other stuff I wrote is so much hubris.
Let me get on the bandwagon with Matt and the others and state that I like the status quo; I think the current mini-mods (OMG I have mini-mod superpowers; oh wait, so does everyone else) getting the attention of the big mods, who pass on stuff to the admin for rule 1 banning works. I tremble at the thought of trying to legislate morality onto the island; the kids have been kicked off the island, so don't make us wear kids gloves when interacting with each other now.
The first three warnings are good evidence of why we (the general island population) should not be aware of alts. Just because a player RPs one alt a certain way, it should not affect how I interact with their other alt. Too many people cannot separate the narrator from the alts.
As for the last warning, is not Role Playing just a genteel lying game?


"tis better to be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt"
 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, March 29 2011 @ 02:24 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana

Quote by: CavemanJoe
WARNING: Your clan and several others are run by the same man.

I have nothing against alts in different clans. Contrary to what some people have said, I do believe that it makes it a lot easier to interact with people if you're clanmates. If it's fun, doesn't piss off your leaders and other clanfolk, and lets you talk to more people, then great!

I do strongly dislike having alts be leaders to different clans. Members is one thing--officers are pushing it--but leaders? Leaders should have a commitment to one clan, and it's unfair to all their members if people are running clans through alts--it leaves the clans short, with only half or a third or a quarter of the attention that they should be getting. If it's possible, I'd like to request that IP-alts be disallowed from leading more than one clan.

Let's not have people casting dark suspicious glances now at all clan leaders. To make it clear: We are not faced with an epidemic of clan leaders stealthily running multiple clans! To my knowledge only one person ever did this, and he has already been outed by CMJ.

As for alts being members in more than one clan, that's up to the clans to decide. Some clans have a no-alt policy, others don't. If clan leaders want to know about an applicant's alt status, they can ask a mod. So, if you're considering joining a second clan with an alt, be up-front about it when you apply.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Tuesday, March 29 2011 @ 02:42 AM UTC  
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I'm going to disagree, once again. I don't know how close what CMJ outlined is to what actually happened, and of course I shouldn't know, but I'll take it as a real situation.

That's nasty, really nasty. There's a big difference between that and the more normal forms of dickery. With those, they're plain to see, and yes they can be annoying, or even hurtful, but at least we all know where we stand with it. Playing head games like the above is a lot worse, and can really screw peoples head, especially if they start wondering who they can trust, if anyone at all.

Superficially it might seem similar to starting an alt so that people interact with you with the misconception that you're a rookie. After all, they're both at the very least misleading other people, but there's a fundamental difference, and that's the attitude behind it.

Playing a rookie is like pulling a joke on a friend. If and when you let them know (or they cotton on) then they should be able to laugh at it, and you're still friends. At worst, if they take themselves a bit seriously, or are a bit overly sensitive, then you can apologise and sort it out.

With the above, that's not the point of it. It's a form of exercising power over someone else, and the more upset the person gets, then the more the perpetrator enjoys it.

I'll say it again. This sort of behaviour is really nasty, and I don't like it. If someone's a bit innocent and naive*, then it can be quite damaging. It's also hard for anyone else to spot happening. A lot of this doesn't happen in public places, and mods won't see it unless someone points it out. So I would regretfully say that IF (and it's a big if) showing that someone had alts helped to stop this, then it should be done.

The question is, will that help? And I'm not at all sure that it will. Not without giving full details of all alts, otherwise it doesn't really say much at all. One tends to trust people unless you've got good reason not to. I do at least, and going round being suspicious of everybody isn't a path I want to go down.

Again, I don't really have anything constructive to add, I just want to reiterate one last time, that playing power games with someone's head is bad, and in a different league to normal dickery.

--------

*And quite a few of us are at 18, hell, some people are at 50 (and on the other hand, some people are really sussed at 13. So it goes.)


 
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Iriana
 Tuesday, March 29 2011 @ 02:49 AM UTC  
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Oh. I certainly didn't mean to imply that. No dark suspicious glances from this quarter--I'm not pointing fingers at anyone at all.

Okay, as with all things, I believe there can be exceptions--there are people who could run two or more clans, simultaneously, with no unhappiness of any sort. So perhaps /disallowing/ this would be... hasty. But my point still stands that a leader makes a commitment to a clan, and it's difficult by anyone's standards to maintain more than one of those commitments.

(I forget that I'm not a leader anymore--it changes the way I look at the alt issue quite a bit, I'm finding.)


 
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Maniak
 Tuesday, March 29 2011 @ 01:20 PM UTC  
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How about a friendly message right after sign-up saying "Hi, I'm glad you enjoy the game enough to make a second character, but please don't use it for being a dick. Doing so will reflect poorly on all your accounts." Link them to the alt character clarification for more info if needed.

It is just a reminder that The Powers That Be are watching. It won't stop anyone determined from acting like a dick. No code can. But hey, it's something. Then, if people act dickish, add the "The person has alts" line to any and all of their accounts, present and future.

Good alts deserve their own discretion, dicks risk losing (some of) their anonymity privileges.


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Hairy Mary
 Tuesday, March 29 2011 @ 02:03 PM UTC  
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That might do something. How about adding a list of their alts to this message, just to rub in, "Yes, we do know who your alts are."


 
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