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Beeps
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 04:28 AM UTC (Read 4921 times)  
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1. Since I've only messed with this on Beta until I have a better feel for it, can you now properly use contrivances and contraptions from the Place's inventory?

2. On Beta, extra programs are free, but I heard mention that they cost 100SP on live. If this is true, is it harder on the server to have one room with four programs, or four identical rooms with one program each? Alternatively, is there a way to do an else if (Probably using extra rows)?

3. The original distraction about the barn raiser said it would reduce monster encounter chance to zero, but the item description doesn't mention this. Does it do this as originally described, or does it only give the stamina buff?

4. Does the Barn Raiser stamina buff extend to Scavenging?

5. With the change in layout to how Places show up on the world map, my original dual-Dwelling design is no longer usable for its intended purpose. Is it possible to have a stake refunded in light of this, especially given that the cigs are now high-demand for Programming bits? I'll even give up the barn raiser from that dwelling. Razz

6. For refunding, did we get SP or materials for secret rooms? Memento room text?


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LydiaDefountain
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 04:50 AM UTC  
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1. nope but you can put them in your place inventory until your ready to use them. They need to be in your personal inventory still though.

2.Extra programs per room= 100stamina for the first program per page is free so if say you want a 4 hidden rooms off 4 different rooms in your dwelling you'd likely need 8 programs (to let people in and let them get out again) but it can be done for free. But if you want 4 hidden rooms off 1 room it'll cost $3 (1 free and 3 cost programs off the from from and 1 free program per room to get out)

3.I believe it still stops encounters as you use it. It did for me and it should still work as such.

4. Nope scavaging is new, the raiser is suppose to help you reset things back to how they once were, maybe with improvements but scavaging is something totally new and you got to work for that still.

5. no idea, you might be able to ask a mod but the steak will expire in 3 months from when places was implemented if you do nothing.

6. You got materials for every room your dwelling had, anything extra I'm not sure on exactly.


 
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Beeps
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 05:03 AM UTC  
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1. Ew.

2. Uh, wow. That's a whole mess of word salad. Someone else? Especially on the elseif thing, since that could simplify it down to a single program with some extra rows, instead of making extra programs/rooms.

3. I'm going to be the best swimmer ever.

4. So the barn raiser is to get us back to the way things were, but I had ~4 secret rooms that had (essentially) a Memento-based page per secret room, which I have to spend 10 cigs a day for a chance to get this functionality back over a number of days of stamina? Rolling Eyes

5. I'm pretty sure steak expires faster than three months. I wouldn't eat it after a week at the most.

6. See 4.


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Zolotisty
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 12:31 PM UTC  
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I've got to echo Beeps here on the Secret Rooms thing -- Secret Rooms may now be possible to do a BILLION DIFFERENT WAYS, but it's fucking tedious to try to build one. I need to schlep off to the Scrapyard, pay a lot of cigarettes for a chance to get some of the right things I need, and I need to do this A LOT if I want more than one Secret Room.. whereas before I merrily paid the game some SP and went on my way, quick as I liked. It was fast, easy, intuitive, and encouraged me to set up veritable rabbit warrens of Secret Room puzzles.

Now?

I have a great big 'FUCK IT' reaction to the idea. Confused


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LydiaDefountain
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 12:39 PM UTC  
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2. I'll try again. There is no else, you can buy new lines and rows.

First program in each room is free

Each one after that cost $1

4. I'd like to assure you that the %'s seem to be better at the scrapyard on live then on Beta, it really shouldn't be hard to set things up and if you pm dark knight in game I might even manage to pass you a momento one if you like.

I've only done the scrapyard twice, I have 2 secret rooms set up so far, 3 weather programs and a decent few extra thingys for use at other times to to trade.

I believe this is a no due mostly to not letting people sit and abuse it, cus it could be.

6. there was some refundage I just don't have a idea as to what as my dwelling was simple with no bells and whistles.


 
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Tyr
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 03:35 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Zolotisty

I've got to echo Beeps here on the Secret Rooms thing -- Secret Rooms may now be possible to do a BILLION DIFFERENT WAYS, but it's fucking tedious to try to build one. I need to schlep off to the Scrapyard, pay a lot of cigarettes for a chance to get some of the right things I need, and I need to do this A LOT if I want more than one Secret Room.. whereas before I merrily paid the game some SP and went on my way, quick as I liked. It was fast, easy, intuitive, and encouraged me to set up veritable rabbit warrens of Secret Room puzzles.

Now?

I have a great big 'FUCK IT' reaction to the idea. Confused




Pretty much this. I love Secret Rooms, and think they're great. I know it's been said that what the early adopters got for spending SP to buy Secret rooms before was that they got to use Secret Rooms, but it would have been nice if the contrivances and contraptions needed to make them in Places had been in our building inventories along with all the stone and wood and furniture. And, to be honest, I was expecting that to happen, as we were supposed to be able to rebuild our dwellings as they had been right of the bat.

And the idea of paying twice (in cigs and stam) to maybe get the parts I need for something I already had before my dwellings got deleted again? Doesn't sit well with me.


 
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Trowa
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 06:22 PM UTC  
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Regarding the refunds bit:

You only got refunded SP you spent on any sound-proofed rooms. Secret rooms did not get refunded. CMJ gave a justification in the Places discussion, I just can't remember the exact wording he used or which page it's on. I believe the same applied to Memento triggers (I actually don't even remember that bit coming up...).

Each new Place inventory should have the amount of wood and stones that were used to build the original Dwelling. It should also have all the couches, folding beds, and single beds that were there, including anything that was customized, with the customization intact.

Any wood or stone you had in the Dwelling's inventory for later use should have been repackaged into a new, weightless item that should either be in your personal inventory or in the building's inventory (this seems to be the exception, though: check your backpack!). Teleporter Beacons are now also Items, and should be in the same package if you had an operational one before. The bug with beacons running forever without funding has been fixed. (And my how I'm surprised I have not seen nearly as many crushed hearts as I thought I would!) Opening said weightless item then immediately burdens your personal inventory with the material, so be sure to already be standing on your square. I believe if you had more than one Dwelling, you still only got one "weightless item" that covered all of your dwellings.*


*Ninja Edit


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Temper
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 07:57 PM UTC  
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You get one store retrieval item per dwelling, in my experience. That's the only reason I have to explain the three I've got sitting in my inventory right now.

As far as Secret Rooms go...
Well, my thoughts basically echo Tyr and Z, so there isn't much point in ranting off about it.


 
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Beeps
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 10:21 PM UTC  
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I only had one Store Retrieval Item, but I don't think I had anything in my other dwelling's store. Though between my Dwelling's cost and the store it had, I have, plenty of materials for rooms/doors/pages. The problem is, I didn't use locks and keys, I used secret rooms and memento descriptions for anything that was locked in my old house. The Contrivance system replaces those, but I'll have to look into buying either a selection box or cigs if I wanted to actually rebuild the shack as it was (I don't, something new is coming once I've got it planned out).


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Buddleia
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 05:51 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Beeps

So the barn raiser is to get us back to the way things were, but I had ~4 secret rooms that had (essentially) a Memento-based page per secret room, which I have to spend 10 cigs a day for a chance to get this functionality back over a number of days of stamina?

Quote by: Zolotisty

I've got to echo Beeps here on the Secret Rooms thing -- Secret Rooms may now be possible to do a BILLION DIFFERENT WAYS, but it's fucking tedious to try to build one. I need to schlep off to the Scrapyard, pay a lot of cigarettes for a chance to get some of the right things I need, and I need to do this A LOT if I want more than one Secret Room.. whereas before I merrily paid the game some SP and went on my way, quick as I liked. It was fast, easy, intuitive, and encouraged me to set up veritable rabbit warrens of Secret Room puzzles.

Now?

I have a great big 'FUCK IT' reaction to the idea. Confused

Quote by: Tyr

Pretty much this. I love Secret Rooms, and think they're great. I know it's been said that what the early adopters got for spending SP to buy Secret rooms before was that they got to use Secret Rooms, but it would have been nice if the contrivances and contraptions needed to make them in Places had been in our building inventories along with all the stone and wood and furniture. And, to be honest, I was expecting that to happen, as we were supposed to be able to rebuild our dwellings as they had been right of the bat.

And the idea of paying twice (in cigs and stam) to maybe get the parts I need for something I already had before my dwellings got deleted again? Doesn't sit well with me.

Quote by: Temper

Well, my thoughts basically echo Tyr and Z, so there isn't much point in ranting off about it.


Another vote for this pile.

Programming is very expensive in terms of cigs, stam, time, and brainpower. Spending a lot of those to get a fairly small number of things that aren't what you want - it's very discouraging, for trying out new things, creating exciting adventures, for simply writing, and for donating.

The Programmer's Boxes are a good idea, but having four of each item isn't going to be much help if you need lots of two or three things and none of the other fifty-odd things.



I propose a possible solution, though it would need an add-on module. Have a vending machine attached to the Scrapyard, where you can buy exactly what you need. I'm sure some enterprising robot would be able to run this sort of operation.

If it was, say, 25 SP per gadget, you could make the equivalent of a secret room for the same price as it was in Dwellings:
Example:
to get into a hidden room:
  • Exact Commentary Match
  • Warp to Room
to get back out:
  • Exact Commentary Match (or whatever you want)
  • Unhide Door

4x gadget @ 25 SP

= 100 SP for an almost-identical Secret Room.



What do other people think of having a vending machine where we could simply buy the exact Contraptions/Contrivances that we need? It wouldn't be like eBoy's, with fluctuating prices depending on supply and demand - it would be always stocked with as many as you need, for a fixed price.

Of course, you wouldn't get any Scavenging xp, but you also would not be spending cigs and stamina. And you would be getting exactly what you need, no more, no less.


Improbable Reference Links - goo.gl/MRBnb -------------- Land Registry (map of Places) ---- goo.gl/bpkRR
 
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Beeps
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 06:19 PM UTC  
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I think that's slightly off - You didn't need a password to get out of a secret room, just to get in, so you wouldn't need a second set. However, 25SP is a good price - Small enough that you can buy a good amount of programming bits.


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Trowa
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 06:22 PM UTC  
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In Places now, if you set the door to the secret room as "hidden", it's hidden on both sides.

But, if you leave it visible, you can make a program on the "unsecret" side to hide the door and only show it if conditions are met. (or something like that...)


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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calliaphone
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 06:31 PM UTC  
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I've been feeling similarly to the others quoted above. Not just about secret rooms, but about the way the costs add up for any kind of place programming. Testing things out on the beta server was lots of fun, and really demonstrated the awesome scope of this new system. But now that we've gone live, I'm feeling very disinclined to go into that scrapyard.

Ten cigs is a lot, the stamina cost is high, and there's no certainty that you'll get any of what you were after before you're out of stam. So then it's another ten cigs if you've got 'em, and the same gamble all over again. Before long you'll be out of cigs, with a load of bits of junk you didn't want in the first place, and a choice: (a) spend money to get cigs and chronos and repeat the gamble or (b) invest some serious quantities of time and do it for free. That's pretty off-putting. It seems that it'll be so time-consuming and expensive to create any programs, it's hitting my motivation to rebuild at all, let alone dream up any future plans.

HOWEVER ... I do like Buddleia's vending machine idea. I would totally pay 25 SP for a gadget of my choice, as an alternative to spending the time/stam hunting for it for free.

Alternatively, here's a variation on the idea: a free "gadget-swap machine" - in the scrapyard or elsewhere. How would it work? Like this:

1) You spend your cigs to get into the yard*
2) hunt about till your stamina's gone
3) trot over to the machine
4) select from your inventory a gadget you don't want to keep
5) Feed unwanted gadget into machine - POP! - out comes another random gadget
6) Repeat steps 4 and 5 until you've got something you like the look of.
7) Repeat steps 4-6 until you've got rid of all the stuff you didn't want and replaced it with things you did want

I'm not sure this is as good as the 25-SP per gadget idea, but it would at least mean that, with a bit of time-investment, you could be sure of getting a good return on your initial cig-spend.

-----
*I still think 10 cigs is too high a cost, given that the activity is also limited by stamina. It effectively puts scavenging out of reach of anyone with low DKs unless they've got a lot of disposable cash.


 
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Count Sessine
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 06:35 PM UTC  
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Or...

It's possible to query the table and get the stats for how many of each of the C&Cs have been placed into programs. I did it to get the data for this chart.

There could be a clever little routine run... oh, every so often, wouldn't have to be every newday (though that would be the simplest to program)... that adjusted the availability of C&Cs according to how many are actually being used.

Right now, 11.4% of the time when you went scavenging you'd get a room warp. You'd hardly ever find a race-related one. Oh, well... details. Perhaps there should be a minimum chance, because it shouldn't be prohibitively difficult to find a rarely-used C&C. New ones should start off at a default value and be adjusted up or down depending on their usefulness. But adjusting availability according to demand would make a trip to the scrapyard far more likely to yield what you want. And for the exceptions, there's always trading.

The vending machine is a very good idea too. Maybe it's a better one, because it's a use for SPs.

ETA: In fact, it is a better idea, because it lets people get exactly what they need, not what other people happened to need. So. I'll leave this here -- this kind of search optimization might be a good idea anyway -- but count me as voting for the vending machine.


 
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Beeps
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 07:54 PM UTC  
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While that could certainly help people get the items they use the most, I fear that it could also deter people from trying new things. Which is basically happening with the system as a whole right now.


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calliaphone
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 09:23 PM UTC  
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Beeps, can you clarify? Which suggestion do you think would help/deter? There are a few ideas bouncing around now, and I couldn't quite work out who you were responding to.

Edit: I've worked it out I've worked it out, I mis-read the first time, which is why I was mystified. Please ignore this post, nothing to see here, move along now...


 
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Beeps
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 09:31 PM UTC  
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Changing the drop rates based on what people are using.


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Hairy Mary
 Sunday, September 25 2011 @ 10:51 PM UTC  
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Quote by: calliaphone



Alternatively, here's a variation on the idea: a free "gadget-swap machine" - in the scrapyard or elsewhere. How would it work? Like this:

1) You spend your cigs to get into the yard*
2) hunt about till your stamina's gone
3) trot over to the machine
4) select from your inventory a gadget you don't want to keep
5) Feed unwanted gadget into machine - POP! - out comes another random gadget
6) Repeat steps 4 and 5 until you've got something you like the look of.
7) Repeat steps 4-6 until you've got rid of all the stuff you didn't want and replaced it with things you did want

I'm not sure this is as good as the 25-SP per gadget idea, but it would at least mean that, with a bit of time-investment, you could be sure of getting a good return on your initial cig-spend.



Not sure about this one. It would mean that you could get exactly what you wanted, if you were prepared to spend enough of your time at it. It would just add a level of tedium which isn't what anyone wants.

Am I missing something? Are people not doing swappsies? I don't remember seeing anybody asking around, but I can be pretty unobservant sometimes.

I'm quite surprised, when the trains first came out lots of people were really enjoying the trading aspect of the game, there were people who were setting themselves up as collectors and traders. Why not now with gadgets? What's different?

Is it because everybody wants the same thing? The show/hide doors and the password/memento gadgets*? That will settle down a little after a while. Places are really powerful, and we've only just scratched the surface here. People are going to be coming up with ideas for some while. Once there's a sufficient pool of ideas using a range of gadgets then for any particular one, there will be some people who want lots, and some people who don't want any. They just need to meet up and trade.

I think the stamina cost of collecting gadgets is fine. How many do you need? If you want to do that much programming, then work for it, the same as you have to work for wood and stone. The cig cost is maybe a little steep though.

Brain Power Involved.
Would it help if somebody (else) wrote a wiki page about how to build secret doors? One reason why it's so much more complicated to build secret rooms in Places than in Dwellings, apart from the hassle of getting the right gadgets, is because there's so many more ways of doing things.

A secret door. There's lots of different ways to trigger them for a start. Password, memento, clan, memory set to show that they've done something else, elsewhere, even race or gender if you want. Or a combination of these things even?

What do you want the door to do once triggered? Deposit you in the other room? Deposit you are on particular page in the other room (so you can have an extra piece of flavour text saying how you entered)? Stay in the same room, but show a door (show a link at the top, that was previously hidden)? The previous together with an extra page? ("The bookcase swings open. Do you dare enter?") Unlock a door that was visible but locked? ("The key fits the lock!")** Once you're in the other room what do you want. The link back is there and easy to use? The link is hidden/locked and they have to find another way back? ("A trapdoor suddenly opens beneath your feet") Perhaps the visitor made the wrong decision, and it deposits you back in the entry room with an extra page? ("You spontaneously combust. Start again. This is your third attempt. Good luck.")

In short, the possibilities are endless. Even if all you want to do is have a secret door show up when you say the right command and be completely visible from the other side. Together with an extra page. ("The bookcase swings back in front of you. Do you wish to enter?") I can think of at least two slightly different ways of setting it up, depending on what gadgets you have available and whether you want a three line program on one side or a two line on one side and a one line on the other***.

-----------------

*I'm sorry. I've tried hard. I love the words "Contraption" and "Contrivance", they're lovely words in their own right, and the alliteration is great. But they're long to write and I can never remember which one's which. Great for titles of links, not great for chatting about. Lyrical, but not functional. I'm going to call them all "gadgets" here.

** It seems to me that these latter two (Show/unlock a door) are far simpler to implement than the first (warp person to room) . Any, more experienced that I, care to comment?

*** Or even just one extra gadget on a top line of another program.****

**** Haven't seen Ephasus in a while. Somebody has to provide the footnotes.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Monday, September 26 2011 @ 09:49 AM UTC  
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Here's a deal for somebody who's not keen on the whole programing thing but has artistic leanings. Show me a sample of an avatar that you've made, and if I like it then make one for one of my main characters (Biggs, The Skronkys, Alexander Quandle). In return I'll build up to five secret doors for you, including provision of the necessary gadgets.

You'll need to cut me a contraption key (I've just noticed, it doesn't give a price for these in the menu. I'll head on over to the bugs thread next.) One for each place that you want a door or doors in. You can save up jobs, so get me to build three doors for you in your place, and then at a later date, call in the other two for a friends place for example.

Any similar deals considered.


 
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Beeps
 Monday, September 26 2011 @ 09:54 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

Here's a deal for somebody who's not keen on the whole programing thing but has artistic leanings. Show me a sample of an avatar that you've made, and if I like it then make one for one of my main characters (Biggs, The Skronkys, Alexander Quandle). In return I'll build up to five secret doors for you, including provision of the necessary gadgets.

You'll need to cut me a contraption key (I've just noticed, it doesn't give a price for these in the menu. I'll head on over to the bugs thread next.) One for each place that you want a door or doors in. You can save up jobs, so get me to build three doors for you in your place, and then at a later date, call in the other two for a friends place for example.

Any similar deals considered.


[WILL CRITICIZE AND/OR MAKE UNPROVABLE CLAIMS AGAINST YOUR PERSON OR BODY OF WORK FOR MONEY/GOODS/SERVICES]


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