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jakell
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 07:40 PM UTC (Read 2684 times)  
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I know this has happened to me several times over, and probably a fair number of you out there, but it absolutely sucks getting failboated right at the beginning of a particularly great newday (usually, it happens when I hit a Titan a little too hard and it ripostes, though occasionally I will check out Stonehenge or hop a ride with the ferryman or the like, but this is a hypothetical - anything could cause this.) And let's say I just started a DK so I happen to not have enough favor with the Watcher to bring me back to the island.

Now, my options are two-fold: I can either use a chronosphere, or wait until the next newday. Both of which completely put to waste all that lovely stamina (and sometimes more importantly a really fine set of joker-stats) that I still have just waiting to be used; rendered useless. It makes me fairly sad when I have loaded up on steaks, and the first minute I get to the jungle, something lambastes me away from a splendid day!

So, one possible solution: what if you could buy with several supporter (10, 15, 20, 25 even?) points some fancy jewelry, a calle shell, a duck-grenade, or something which you could give to the Watcher for just enough favor to make it back to shore? That way, all that tasty stamina would not go to waste on the off chance the island (or myself) has a bad roll or the number generator.

The biggest downside that I can see is that folks might hang out on the failboat less often, but even if we had it cost just as much as a newday, I do not think it would become to much of an issue. I know at some point in the future a new version of the Watcher's Blessing will be coming back, and so perhaps you could trade these items directly for a trip back to the island? (In which case, perhaps you could bribe that darn ferryman who brings folks out to the failboat to ferry you back...)

So what do you all think, would this be implementable? Or, is it even wanted?


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 08:14 PM UTC  
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I remember this from this thread! Still seems like a good idea, though I probably wouldn't use it.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 11:53 PM UTC  
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Or, we could have activities on the Failboat that cost stamina. That way, the stamina doesn't feel like a total waste, it just gets spent on things you didn't intend to do. If the Failboat becomes an "underworld" of sorts with some unique activities, that would be awesome. CMJ could literally make an underworld that you could be sent to from the Failboat via rowboat, where you could work for the good of the Island.

If you stay on the Failboat, you can do the cage matches and get back to the main world using favor, but besides that, you can also do self-focused stamina actions.
Self-focused activities might be something like: beast-caging, boat-rowing, break-dancing, Madam Trousseau's Academe of Refinement, etc. These activities will respectively give bonus HP, attack, defense, and charm by +X% per action, which will take effect upon the next Game Day and last for that one Game Day.

If you choose to travel from the boat into the caverns at the Island cliffside, you can do world-focused stamina actions. World-focused activities might be something like: cigarette mining, req smelting, Crate Sniffer crafting, etc. Every 10,000 cigs mined across all players will then be shipped for camera dispensing, and cigarette hoppers on the island can run out if no players ever mine cigarettes down below. Req printing works the same way with different numbers. Item construction will affect the different types of items found in crates on the island.



Obviously, these suggestions, especially the world-focused ones, are huge undertakings with lots of balance ramifications. These are just ideas to spur the imaginations for what we could possibly have to make the Failboat feel less punishing for those who got the short end of the RNG during their first fight.


 
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jenkins
 Sunday, April 22 2012 @ 01:11 AM UTC  
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Or, we could have activities on the Failboat that cost stamina...


All of these ideas sound really, really cool,* but there's a problem.

The failboat is supposed to be a punishment, for dieing. And if we had stam costing actions on the boat to make it nice and fun, or even productive for that next newday, what would stop you from keeping on using them? Keep in mind, the failboat is what happens once you die from too low of stam. The day I get +x% of attack buff per action, i'm going to have +9999999999999 attack the next Newday. And then, game broken.
If you did limit the usage of it, still. The boat's supposed to be a punishment for failing.***



* Especially for me, cause I'm allways there.
** Which may have allready been obtained by Jakell. How else does he hit those Titans so hard!?
*** Even if it contains a boatload of fun rp.

Heh, see what I did there? Boatload?


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Sunday, April 22 2012 @ 02:06 AM UTC  
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Quote by: jenkins


** Which may have allready been obtained by Jakell. How else does he hit those Titans so hard!?


Neutral

You're right, though the FailBoat is the failurezone. But I have an idea!
"Run laps for the Watcher". You get one favor (or somesuch) per lap. The laps can only be run in the green (or possibly yellow) and cost enough to make cagefighting a better deal. You should be able to use this to get back to the island, or spend any leftover stam.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Sunday, April 22 2012 @ 07:02 PM UTC  
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Quote by: jenkins

Or, we could have activities on the Failboat that cost stamina...


All of these ideas sound really, really cool,* but there's a problem.

The failboat is supposed to be a punishment, for dieing.



I understand what you're saying, and I am definitely aware that my proposal would change it. So we must decide, is it important to keep the Failboat as strictly punishment? Or can it be a limited-scope world that still has uses?

My interpretation in my head when I was thinking of all this was the tournament design of "Double-Elimination". Everyone starts out in the Winner's Bracket. Players who win each fight stay in the Winner's Bracket, and if a person loses a match, they're knocked down to the Loser's Bracket. In the Loser's Bracket, the players still duke it out, and dying again means you're eliminated from the tournament completely. Here it loses relevance, but I'll finish the explanation: the final match of the tournament actually becomes the winner of the Winner's Bracket (the undefeated) versus the winner of the Loser's Bracket (the person who lost only one match). It's called Double-Elimination because you have to lose twice in order to be unable to win the whole thing.

In the game sense, this would be the Island and the Failboat. When you do stuff on the Island, or Winner's Bracket, you make sure not to die, and you'll reach the end of your day as a winner. If you die, however, you get sent to the Loser's Bracket, or Failboat. Currently, when you're sent to the Loser's Bracket, you can do 8-10 fights (or less with Favor items) to get back into the Winner's Bracket. If you lose a cage fight without enough Favor stockpiled, you cannot possibly get back into the Winner's Bracket for the day, and are therefore eliminated from the tournament completely (for the day).



I've gone through all this to explain that we already have a punishment system: being sent to the Failboat and not getting the Favor to get back out of it. You're stuck in the Failboat, and can't possibly do all the things you wanted to do on the Island. But, there is a sense of wastefulness that can become very frustrating to players who die often with a lot of stamina. After all, though death is avoidable in this game, it happens very frequently and oftentimes unexpectedly. (I can go weeks without dying to my Force Generator, but then randomly BAM 1500 damage to myself). So, I think my proposal of "world-focused" stam actions like going underground to mine the cigarettes (picture cigs like crystals jutting out of rocks, overseers holding onto chained miners, and oversaturated blue camera filters) can still give the sense of "Damnit, I lost" but can placate a fraction of the players' frustrations by at least knowing that they can help the island out if not themselves.

The self-buff options I had also mentioned because this is all just about making suggestions rather than really designing what I imagine for a final product. Making the Island's cigarette rates dependent on the players' death rates is incredibly unbalancing (not imbalancing (imbalancing is favoring X over Y, unbalancing is making it difficult for X and Y to become balanced)) because it becomes harder to predict the rates of cigarette income. When that happens, the designer has to change the cigarette costs of ingame things in order to keep the old balance; therefore it's much more appealing from a developer's perspective to go for the smaller, more estimable features like a limited self-buff.

But if we had all the patience and recklessness in the world, I'd totally prefer the cigarette mining feature over the "spend my remaining stamina on a 50% attack bonus tomorrow".

And if we had stam costing actions on the boat to make it nice and fun, or even productive for that next newday, what would stop you from keeping on using them? Keep in mind, the failboat is what happens once you die from too low of stam. The day I get +x% of attack buff per action, i'm going to have +9999999999999 attack the next Newday. And then, game broken.


The failboat isn't what happens when you die from low stamina, it's when you die of low HP. If you died from going under 20% stamina and Reinforcing the wall just once too many times, you'll arrive at the Failboat with not enough stamina to do any training or req smelting, so nothing changes anyway. Jakell's request was for assuaging player frustration when you wake up feeling fresh and clean, take your first step, and slip on a banana peel down the stairs into a vat of acid. It hardly seems fair! So you can at least make all that energy useful, and spend it fixing up yourself for tomorrow, so that tomorrow, you'll CRUSH THAT BANANA PEEL and STAND YOUR GROUND.

As far as +999999999999 attack goes, you can make the stamina actions prohibitive. Even with the 10 Noodly Noodle + 1 Mutant Steak combo, I'm always below 450% stamina, so I'll use that as a theoretical maximum. With 500 drive kills, you'll have 500 attack (and 2 defense, fuck it). So if you die at the start of the day after gaining as much stamina as possible, you'll have 500 ATK and 450 Stam. If you spend 5 Stam per action on tomorrow's buff, and the buff action raises that value by 1% per action, then you can have 90% more attack if you work yourself until 0% stamina. (You're already "dead", so I see no reason to limit yourself to 20% or 60%). Because the LotGD combat calculation is INSANE and makes bonuses MULTIPLICATIVE (really, who thought that would be easy to balance?!), you're right that it'll just make values further ridiculous. But considering that anyone at 500 attack is already one-shotting the most massive creatures in the game by far due to their Gargleblaster/Plasma Gun/Tynan's Gym things, is it really increasing the gap between weak and strong? Or is it actually making the upper tier more accessible, because players know they can spend one full day on the Failboat for the next day of taking down Titans?

If you did limit the usage of it, still. The boat's supposed to be a punishment for failing.***


Ultimately, your reiteration is right. It does make the Failboat a tool rather than a simple deterrence. That's why this discussion is fruitful, because it makes us analyze how far we can go and how far is too far. I didn't original realize how the Pleasantville food issue multiplies between a death at 140% stamina and one at 410% stamina. But I do think that changing the Failboat from a punishment to a limited loser's world (keep the shame, but provide function) might be for the better, and therefore shouldn't be forever off the table for Season 3.

** Which may have allready been obtained by Jakell. How else does he hit those Titans so hard!?


Goddamnit, Jakell. One time, I watched him punch a titan bare-knuckled in the torso. The torso flew miles back while the limbs and head fell to the ground where Jakell stood. True story.


 
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Buddleia
 Sunday, April 22 2012 @ 07:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred
As far as +999999999999 attack goes, you can make the stamina actions prohibitive. Even with the 10 Noodly Noodle + 1 Mutant Steak combo, I'm always below 450% stamina, so I'll use that as a theoretical maximum. With 500 drive kills, you'll have 500 attack (and 2 defense, fuck it). So if you die at the start of the day after gaining as much stamina as possible, you'll have 500 ATK and 450 Stam. If you spend 5 Stam per action on tomorrow's buff, and the buff action raises that value by 1% per action, then you can have 90% more attack if you work yourself until 0% stamina. (You're already "dead", so I see no reason to limit yourself to 20% or 60%).

That's an interesting point about the figures.

Very rarely, you'll have One Of Those Days and wind up stuck on the Failboat at over 400% stamina. But it is rare. I would have thought that most people, most of the time, are going to get stuck there with under 100% - maybe even in the low red. After all, there's no reliable way to send yourself to the Failboat except by a) going to the Factory and being "lucky" enough to find a deathtrap, or, the more common b) hammer-to-face when reinforcing. So it would be rather difficult for people to be deliberately Failboat themselves for the purpose of using and abusing this system.

So, most people, most of the time, would probably not get a huge amount of use out of this proposed stamina-using activity. And that's as it should be. It shouldn't be a like going round the pubs for a buff, or a daily trip to the Commons to smack the pinata; it should be a consolation prize for those moments of "oh, fuck! Chrono or sulk?" when you get stuck there with high stamina, all dressed up with nowhere to go.

(After all, if you get stuck on the Boat already exhausted, it doesn't matter so much. You've already used your stamina. So there's not much point in being able to do some thing to use stamina, even if they would give you and/or others a bonus. But if you get stuck when you're well up in the greens, it would be nice to have something stamina-requiring to do before chronoing.)



Also:
Jakell's request was for assuaging player frustration when you wake up feeling fresh and clean, take your first step, and slip on a banana peel down the stairs into a vat of acid.
Quote of the day. I can't stop laughing.


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Awesome Fred
 Sunday, April 22 2012 @ 09:02 PM UTC  
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it should be a consolation prize for those moments of "oh, fuck! Chrono or sulk?" when you get stuck there with high stamina, all dressed up with nowhere to go.


"Dressed up with nowhere to go" captures the feeling well--just finished getting ready to go out, then your friend calls to cancel on you. All this effort for nothing. Not only that, but "consolation prize" is a great way of putting what this thread's suggestions are for. We want to make sure it's not what people are aiming for, but makes them feel okay that they didn't get what they aimed for.

(After all, if you get stuck on the Boat already exhausted, it doesn't matter so much. You've already used your stamina. So there's not much point in being able to do some thing to use stamina, even if they would give you and/or others a bonus. But if you get stuck when you're well up in the greens, it would be nice to have something stamina-requiring to do before chronoing.)

...

So, most people, most of the time, would probably not get a huge amount of use out of this proposed stamina-using activity. And that's as it should be. It shouldn't be a like going round the pubs for a buff, or a daily trip to the Commons to smack the pinata;


I think we all agree that this is the primary concern with introducing a feature like this.
However, we want to avoid it being a power-playing tool of abuse, right?

Quote by: Buddleia

Very rarely, you'll have One Of Those Days and wind up stuck on the Failboat at over 400% stamina. But it is rare. I would have thought that most people, most of the time, are going to get stuck there with under 100% - maybe even in the low red. After all, there's no reliable way to send yourself to the Failboat except by a) going to the Factory and being "lucky" enough to find a deathtrap, or, the more common b) hammer-to-face when reinforcing. So it would be rather difficult for people to be deliberately Failboat themselves for the purpose of using and abusing this system.



This is a problem that can only be solved explicitly by making sure every possibility is not intentionally reproducible and under a player's control. In this case, I think I found one, though: Improbability Bombs. You can failboat yourself with no cost to Stamina by using Imp Bombs, and req is not nearly as limited a resource. I think it's very possible for a player to stack near 450% stamina, enter 1-3 fights (if you're lucky, no stamina entering a fight against a Titan), and chuck Imp Bombs until you're killed. Enter the Failboat with 445+% stamina left over, and train ATK 89 times. Then, use a Chronosphere and start the next day with (ATK x 1.89) and then multiply that further with each and every ATK modifier, and you'll go to town on 10 titans in one day.

But maybe simply adjusting the number might help. If we had a theoretical 5% stam action that raised tomorrow's ATK or DEF by 0.5%, if we were boated with 450 stam, we get half as much an attack multiplier (45%). If we had 120 stam when boated, we'd get a 12% ATK or DEF tomorrow. If we're boated at orange stam, we'd get the paltry 6%, which is okay because we had nearly a full day anyway. At the red Hammer/Unconscious level, we'd get 1.5%, or basically nothing at all.

That actually might seem fair, no?


Also:
Jakell's request was for assuaging player frustration when you wake up feeling fresh and clean, take your first step, and slip on a banana peel down the stairs into a vat of acid.
Quote of the day. I can't stop laughing.


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Count Sessine
 Sunday, April 22 2012 @ 11:24 PM UTC  
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This is all very interesting, but it sounds like a lot of programming -- which means that even if it's a good idea (I have my doubts), it's not likely to happen soon.

However... the original suggestion sounds a great deal more possible: being able to bribe your way onto the boat back to the Island, which would land you into the same game day you left, just as if you went back with favor.

As for the price -- I think it should be 25 SP, same as an Instant New Day. As Jakell explains so vividly, sometimes you want one, sometimes you want the other.


 
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Collin-Vee
 Monday, April 23 2012 @ 12:33 AM UTC  
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I like most of these ideas, but why not instead of having it help YOU, have it help the island in a more direct way? Such as something like "Nailing crates" would have a crate drop somewhere once a certain amount of nails have been nailed in at the cost of stamina? Something like that, that helps people in a direct way, but not you, and not so difficult to program, either. Have it use already-implemented features.


 
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Maniak
 Monday, April 23 2012 @ 06:32 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred


This is a problem that can only be solved explicitly by making sure every possibility is not intentionally reproducible and under a player's control. In this case, I think I found one, though: Improbability Bombs. You can failboat yourself with no cost to Stamina by using Imp Bombs, and req is not nearly as limited a resource. I think it's very possible for a player to stack near 450% stamina, enter 1-3 fights (if you're lucky, no stamina entering a fight against a Titan), and chuck Imp Bombs until you're killed. Enter the Failboat with 445+% stamina left over, and train ATK 89 times. Then, use a Chronosphere and start the next day with (ATK x 1.89) and then multiply that further with each and every ATK modifier, and you'll go to town on 10 titans in one day.

But maybe simply adjusting the number might help. If we had a theoretical 5% stam action that raised tomorrow's ATK or DEF by 0.5%, if we were boated with 450 stam, we get half as much an attack multiplier (45%). If we had 120 stam when boated, we'd get a 12% ATK or DEF tomorrow. If we're boated at orange stam, we'd get the paltry 6%, which is okay because we had nearly a full day anyway. At the red Hammer/Unconscious level, we'd get 1.5%, or basically nothing at all.

That actually might seem fair, no?



No.

Although it's not on the failboat, there already is a system in place for spending stamina in exchange for more ATK or DEF. It's called Tynan's Gym and you can keep on using it even after 0% stamina.

Say I have a bad Joker day right now, but the next New Day might be better. What's to prevent me from going to Tynan's, then gorge on steaks and train some more on the failboat? Next day I'll have an imposing amount of attack and some extra favour stockpiled.

I'm with Sessine on this. I'd rather grease some palms.


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Awesome Fred
 Monday, April 23 2012 @ 08:02 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Collin-Vee

I like most of these ideas, but why not instead of having it help YOU, have it help the island in a more direct way? Such as something like "Nailing crates" would have a crate drop somewhere once a certain amount of nails have been nailed in at the cost of stamina? Something like that, that helps people in a direct way, but not you, and not so difficult to program, either. Have it use already-implemented features.



Emphasis mine. I believe you'd like my earlier suggestion then:

Quote by: Awesome Fred

Or, we could have activities on the Failboat that cost stamina. That way, the stamina doesn't feel like a total waste, it just gets spent on things you didn't intend to do. If the Failboat becomes an "underworld" of sorts with some unique activities, that would be awesome. CMJ could literally make an underworld that you could be sent to from the Failboat via rowboat, where you could work for the good of the Island.

...

If you choose to travel from the boat into the caverns at the Island cliffside, you can do world-focused stamina actions. World-focused activities might be something like: cigarette mining, req smelting, Crate Sniffer crafting, etc. Every 10,000 cigs mined across all players will then be shipped for camera dispensing, and cigarette hoppers on the island can run out if no players ever mine cigarettes down below. Req printing works the same way with different numbers. Item construction will affect the different types of items found in crates on the island.



However, the issue here is not only "difficult to program" as much as it is "difficult to balance". If the amount of crates being dispensed onto the island is dependent heavily upon the players in the Failboat, it becomes harder to regulate the amount of items in every outpost, and consequently the ease of travel and amount of req spent, which the further compounds into changing the whole of the game's difficulty.

This kind of "hard to balance" consideration probably went into taking the Trains out. (Other reasons were given too.) With Trains, it was SO EASY for anyone with a dozen drive kills' experience under their belt to go anywhere. I didn't need to walk across the map anymore--those travel skills became irrelevant.

If a change like this went in, I'd love it and want to play with it until it works. But from CMJ's perspective, it's probably a nightmare to balance, which then translates to a struggle to code and code again. Think of how annoying Onslaught has felt for CMJ himself, which is why several times he's said, "Can't I please just throw it out of the game?" I'd also love to see Trains back in. Over several threads, we had a hundred propositions on how to make Trains more fair. But again, it's a lot of work on the developer's end because it's a lot of rebalancing.




Quote by: Count Sessine

This is all very interesting, but it sounds like a lot of programming -- which means that even if it's a good idea (I have my doubts), it's not likely to happen soon.

However... the original suggestion sounds a great deal more possible: being able to bribe your way onto the boat back to the Island, which would land you into the same game day you left, just as if you went back with favor.

As for the price -- I think it should be 25 SP, same as an Instant New Day. As Jakell explains so vividly, sometimes you want one, sometimes you want the other.



So this touches on a problem that I had with Jakell's proposal, though ultimately I'm going to tell you that it's actually probably going to be the best idea for CMJ.

It's another area that breaks game integrity.

"It's just 25 cents. If you can't afford that, shouldn't you go get a job instead of playing this game?" "It goes to helping CMJ support the Island. Why do you just want everything for free?" "You can get SP easily by signing up for WCG! That's FREE, dude. You have no reason to protest."

Multiplayer games have elements of competition. Even when there's no PvP, there's still competition to perform better. Even if you're not vying to be number one, you should recognize that people still want a level playing field.

I don't have a problem if a game costs money. But I have a problem when within a game, you can get ahead by spending additional money. That factor changes the competition from "top performer" to "biggest wallet". I don't like Builder's Brews, Cigarette Cartons, and Chronosphere Fills. I've spent my SP only on cosmetic changes (title, weapon name), Chronospheres (so I can go a longer time without playing again and still have not lost potential playtime), and the Hyperring (so I can go a LONG time without playing again and losing everything).

Consider why we have Stamina/Chronospheres at all. Why does this online game STOP us from playing after a certain point? Why can't we just do anything and everything all the time? Instead of spending stamina to do any action, why don't we just continually hit the Scrapyard until we get what we want, go to our Place and install everything, and then when we're done, we go to the Jungle and grind until we have enough money for the equipment we want, and then get more cigarettes to have all the things we want...

Because the person with the most time is the person who gets ahead. There are other factors claimed in the model as well: it prevents "burn-out" (getting bored), it forces quitting to prevent addiction, etc. But the biggest part of it is that it means that the casual player doesn't fall as far behind the hardcore player. If you have a busy workweek and can only play a half-hour each night until the weekend, you're not too disadvantaged from the gamer whose entire hobby is playing games after he gets home from work or school.

This fairness feature is broken when a person with change to spare can infinitely overcome this barrier. A person with money to spare on his hobby (people spend lots of money on hobbies) is not as restricted as the person who can't afford to spend their lunch money today on a game. Having the ability to spend money in order to continue playing the game even when it's shut off for everyone else isn't in the spirit of fair play.



That said, would it be a good implementation? It would be the BEST solution to Jakell's "All Dressed Up" problem. It's the marriage of the two great manipulators: Impulse Buy and Microtransaction. "Damnit, I died with all this stamina! And since I'm a midget, I can't break 100 favor with these 10 cage fights. Should I buy a restoration...?" And then: "You know, it's only 25 SP. It's just a quarter today."

Boom! The player is instantly gratified, the developer has made money. Everybody's happy!

Except the players who don't have the luxury of straying from their budget. I would much rather have the solution to this problem be from in-game resources, not money. Even if everybody gets small bits of free money from WCG, it does NOT mean the playing field is level.





Quote by: Maniak

No.

Although it's not on the failboat, there already is a system in place for spending stamina in exchange for more ATK or DEF. It's called Tynan's Gym and you can keep on using it even after 0% stamina.

Say I have a bad Joker day right now, but the next New Day might be better. What's to prevent me from going to Tynan's, then gorge on steaks and train some more on the failboat? Next day I'll have an imposing amount of attack and some extra favour stockpiled.

I'm with Sessine on this. I'd rather grease some palms.



1) Tynan's Gym is stupid for being like that. Really, I'll just say it bluntly. It's stupid. There's no reason it should be designed to allow a player to spend past 0 stamina if it costs stamina. It should stop you from training at 20% exp. You're not going to endanger yourself doing construction when you're tired, but gym machines are totally cool even though you're in danger of fainting in a Jungle fight?

2) The limiting factor of Tynan's Gym is Req instead of stamina, right? It does cost money? So isn't it more cost-effective to continually train there instead of spending the Req on Steaks to go to the Failboat for a 1.45x multiplier?

3) You're right that all of this comes together in order to make a very difficult thing to balance. I'm not invested in these suggestions at all, I'm just playing around with ideas.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Tuesday, April 24 2012 @ 12:14 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred


[Putting the "wall of text" back into-- um... whatever it is that "wall of text" was taken out of. Good stuff, anyhow.]

Quote by: Maniak

No.

Although it's not on the failboat, there already is a system in place for spending stamina in exchange for more ATK or DEF. It's called Tynan's Gym and you can keep on using it even after 0% stamina.

Say I have a bad Joker day right now, but the next New Day might be better. What's to prevent me from going to Tynan's, then gorge on steaks and train some more on the failboat? Next day I'll have an imposing amount of attack and some extra favour stockpiled.

I'm with Sessine on this. I'd rather grease some palms.



1) Tynan's Gym is stupid for being like that. Really, I'll just say it bluntly. It's stupid. There's no reason it should be designed to allow a player to spend past 0 stamina if it costs stamina. It should stop you from training at 20% exp. You're not going to endanger yourself doing construction when you're tired, but gym machines are totally cool even though you're in danger of fainting in a Jungle fight?

2) The limiting factor of Tynan's Gym is Req instead of stamina, right? It does cost money? So isn't it more cost-effective to continually train there instead of spending the Req on Steaks to go to the Failboat for a 1.45x multiplier?

3) You're right that all of this comes together in order to make a very difficult thing to balance. I'm not invested in these suggestions at all, I'm just playing around with ideas.


1) I seem to remember injuring myself on the machines, being tired.

2) It costs money? Huh. Hadn't noticed. I always though the limiting factor was excess health, which I've been warned against accruing.


 
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jenkins
 Tuesday, April 24 2012 @ 01:33 AM UTC  
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[Putting the "wall of text" back into-- um... whatever it is that "wall of text" was taken out of. Good stuff, anyhow.]

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No.

Although it's not on the failboat, there already is a system in place for spending stamina in exchange for more ATK or DEF. It's called Tynan's Gym and you can keep on using it even after 0% stamina.

Say I have a bad Joker day right now, but the next New Day might be better. What's to prevent me from going to Tynan's, then gorge on steaks and train some more on the failboat? Next day I'll have an imposing amount of attack and some extra favour stockpiled.

I'm with Sessine on this. I'd rather grease some palms.



1) Tynan's Gym is stupid for being like that. Really, I'll just say it bluntly. It's stupid. There's no reason it should be designed to allow a player to spend past 0 stamina if it costs stamina. It should stop you from training at 20% exp. You're not going to endanger yourself doing construction when you're tired, but gym machines are totally cool even though you're in danger of fainting in a Jungle fight?

2) The limiting factor of Tynan's Gym is Req instead of stamina, right? It does cost money? So isn't it more cost-effective to continually train there instead of spending the Req on Steaks to go to the Failboat for a 1.45x multiplier?

3) You're right that all of this comes together in order to make a very difficult thing to balance. I'm not invested in these suggestions at all, I'm just playing around with ideas.


1) I seem to remember injuring myself on the machines, being tired.

2) It costs money? Huh. Hadn't noticed. I always though the limiting factor was excess health, which I've been warned against accruing.



1) In character-wise, you manage to seriously injure yourself, no matter the stam. But you can't argue with the gym's results! Look at them pecs!
2) Er, I'm pretty sure it only costs stam, not req. And Lion, you're thinking of the Gauntlet.

And back to the greasing of palms, as far as imbalancing casual vs. hardcore, I don't believe it'd mess up the balance too much. If people were really going to spend lots of money going back to the island, they'd spend it anyways on chronos, and this function would probably be better in balancing it a bit for the casual player, since it would be worth more on occasion, in which they'd be willing to spare said quarter, for 450% stam instead of a chrono and 120%* for the same quarter.

And back to brainstorming, what if the failboat Season 3 had a mixture of the helping out people in general and personal buff thing? A gifted buff! One per day and stuff. 5% stam per 1%Attack/Def increase or something? At 450 stam, that'd be about 70% increase. Which, while giving a HEFTY bonus to Titan Slayers, I don't believe anyone will be willing to load up on Noodles, then repairing to death trying just to give Jakell that extra edge.**


*Or something like that. I don't know the average Newday stam, but it's gotta be around there with all the donations lately. Go donators!

**Pfft. As if he needs it. Did you hear Fred's story about the guy? That's just ludicrous!


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, April 24 2012 @ 01:50 AM UTC  
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Players are only allowed to buy one Instant New Day per real game day. These 'bribery-trips' back to the Island could quite easily count against that limit. So this idea wouldn't be providing any infinite new privileges to supporters for their 25 cents. It would only allow them to choose whether they wanted to go back to the same day or a new one.

That's not going to unbalance anything.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Tuesday, April 24 2012 @ 03:00 AM UTC  
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1) I seem to remember injuring myself on the machines, being tired.

2) It costs money? Huh. Hadn't noticed. I always though the limiting factor was excess health, which I've been warned against accruing.


1) In character-wise, you manage to seriously injure yourself, no matter the stam. But you can't argue with the gym's results! Look at them pecs!
2) Er, I'm pretty sure it only costs stam, not req. And Lion, you're thinking of the Gauntlet.


1) Oh.
2) No, the Gauntlet's how you get the excess HP. Then you can train it into ATK and DEF at the Gym, one ATK or DEF point for ten HP, right? But you can't go below the amount of HP you should have at the start.


 
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jakell
 Monday, April 30 2012 @ 03:24 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Players are only allowed to buy one Instant New Day per real game day. These 'bribery-trips' back to the Island could quite easily count against that limit. So this idea wouldn't be providing any infinite new privileges to supporters for their 25 cents. It would only allow them to choose whether they wanted to go back to the same day or a new one.

That's not going to unbalance anything.


Really, only one? Neat. I never tried to buy more then one chronosphere or choronosphere replenishment (I am not sure which you mean here) in a single day, but I never saw any warning about limiting the number of chronospheres you could buy or replenish in a day. Good to know!

Either way, I would be fine with just such a limit. The number of occasions that I am left kicking myself for being prematurely failboated is rare enough that just once a realday would be fine by me.

Quote by: Awesome+Fred


Quote by: Maniak

Although it's not on the failboat, there already is a system in place for spending stamina in exchange for more ATK or DEF. It's called Tynan's Gym and you can keep on using it even after 0% stamina.

1) Tynan's Gym is stupid for being like that. Really, I'll just say it bluntly. It's stupid. There's no reason it should be designed to allow a player to spend past 0 stamina if it costs stamina. It should stop you from training at 20% exp. You're not going to endanger yourself doing construction when you're tired, but gym machines are totally cool even though you're in danger of fainting in a Jungle fight?


I would agree it is a bit silly, but limiting a person to 20% stamina would keep most folks (assuming they start at about 120% experience, and spend their whole newday working out) to only moving 400 hp to 40 attack or defense, or 20 attack to 20 defense, as each action costs 2.5% stamina. Now, if there were a way to reduce the stamina cost, say by gaining experience with working out to the point that it might only cost about .1% of your stamina per action at level 100 in Working Out, then I would be ok with stopping at 20%.

Admittedly, my objection is purely out of self interest; at this point, I spend about an hour (or more) total time per real-day in the gym to keep my hp down so that I can manage the jungle and random encounters. Without daily trips to the gym, the monster's hp scaling would make the jungle darn near impossible for me when I end up back over 10 khp. Facing an Admiral Flufferson with 40 khp might only be gargleblasterable. Now point in fact, I am a very special case, and quite the ridiculous extreme, but the gym as it currently is makes me the character I am today, and I would be hesitant to change anything about the system while still in 2.0 . When Island 3.0 comes out, such a change would be sad for me, but perfectly acceptable.


 
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 Monday, April 30 2012 @ 02:22 PM UTC  
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Players are only allowed to buy one Instant New Day per real game day.


Really, only one? Neat. I never tried to buy more then one chronosphere or choronosphere replenishment (I am not sure which you mean here) in a single day, but I never saw any warning about limiting the number of chronospheres you could buy or replenish in a day. Good to know!


Sessine means the Instant New Day option right above the option to buy a new chronosphere. As far as I know, you can buy as many chronospheres and fill them up afterwards as you want in a single Real Game Day. I think I've done it when I was trying to build up a double-bed buff. Smile

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Facing an Admiral Flufferson with 40 khp might only be gargleblasterable.

Eek!


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Awesome Fred
 Thursday, May 03 2012 @ 10:37 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Players are only allowed to buy one Instant New Day per real game day. These 'bribery-trips' back to the Island could quite easily count against that limit. So this idea wouldn't be providing any infinite new privileges to supporters for their 25 cents. It would only allow them to choose whether they wanted to go back to the same day or a new one.

That's not going to unbalance anything.



That's good that the replenishments aren't infinite per day, agreed. Ultimately in my mental utopia, though, it wouldn't exist at all. Still, it does trivialize my concern heavily, so I won't press that particular possibility on this issue anymore.

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Quote by: Maniak

Although it's not on the failboat, there already is a system in place for spending stamina in exchange for more ATK or DEF. It's called Tynan's Gym and you can keep on using it even after 0% stamina.

1) Tynan's Gym is stupid for being like that. Really, I'll just say it bluntly. It's stupid. There's no reason it should be designed to allow a player to spend past 0 stamina if it costs stamina. It should stop you from training at 20% exp. You're not going to endanger yourself doing construction when you're tired, but gym machines are totally cool even though you're in danger of fainting in a Jungle fight?



I would agree it is a bit silly, but limiting a person to 20% stamina would keep most folks (assuming they start at about 120% experience, and spend their whole newday working out) to only moving 400 hp to 40 attack or defense, or 20 attack to 20 defense, as each action costs 2.5% stamina. Now, if there were a way to reduce the stamina cost, say by gaining experience with working out to the point that it might only cost about .1% of your stamina per action at level 100 in Working Out, then I would be ok with stopping at 20%.

Admittedly, my objection is purely out of self interest; at this point, I spend about an hour (or more) total time per real-day in the gym to keep my hp down so that I can manage the jungle and random encounters. Without daily trips to the gym, the monster's hp scaling would make the jungle darn near impossible for me when I end up back over 10 khp. Facing an Admiral Flufferson with 40 khp might only be gargleblasterable. Now point in fact, I am a very special case, and quite the ridiculous extreme, but the gym as it currently is makes me the character I am today, and I would be hesitant to change anything about the system while still in 2.0 . When Island 3.0 comes out, such a change would be sad for me, but perfectly acceptable.



You say it yourself: your objection is purely out of self interest. I'm aware of that, and that doesn't de-legitimize your protest. You find the way you play fun and you want it to stay. But I'm trying to make suggestions that more people will find fun, and more people will find fair. I think most of MY suggestions are always Island 3.0 style, because they're always big sweeping overhauls, but if my playstyle is broken by a new feature during Season 2, I wouldn't stop because I lost a fun style--I would only stop if I couldn't find a fun one to replace it, though.

Again, I do think your playstyle has every right to exist. The idea of going out to spend some stamina on the gym every day in order to keep playing optimally (because I think it's pretty much agreed you're the top player in combat Wink ) sounds fun (and even if it didn't sound fun to me, if it's fun to you that's all the matters), and I think your suggestion about making it a Skill is the perfect compromise.

If Working Out was a skill, that has a logical flow. Players who don't work out much get sore pretty quickly, players who work out all the time can keep going and going. Going from 2.5 to 0.5 in 100 levels sounds reasonable, but 100 levels should be a looooooot of experience (somewhat more than Stonecutting/Logging, which was fairly reasonable). If you want 0.1 per action, that would be 40k HP to 4000 attack moved on 100 stamina. That continues to keep the gap super-wide between players, which I personally (personally) think isn't good. Yet, as you say, you have 40k HP and the LotGD combat system is pants-on-head stupid about HP, so how are you supposed to manage if that change were made? It is quite the conundrum.



So going back to the topic of All Stam'd Up and Nothing To Do, if we did your 25SP suggestion, I think that would be effective for a good amount of players and good for the game developer. If we do my suggestion, maybe the "training" mechanics wouldn't be good to have in Season 2 because the gym is stupid because the combat is stupid because the HP is stupid. Instead, it would just be spending Stamina on things like making items to ship out in crates, an altruistic action.


 
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Matthew
 Friday, May 04 2012 @ 12:35 AM UTC  
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Myself, I'm totally in favor of a donate-my-way-off-the-boat just once a day. It seems pretty balanced, and removes some of the "well this is some goddamn bullshit" frustration. I remember, as a midget, I once ate my way to like 500% stamina and then the old man sent me to the failboat. I was fairly displeased.

Fuck you, old man.


 
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