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Raine Bofirn
 Thursday, September 20 2012 @ 10:18 PM UTC (Read 6891 times)  
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I was trying to reply to the thread, but it got locked...in any case!

Never got to say anything, but the whole favorite people list got taken down in under 24 hours. It seems like there's opinions either way, on both Favorite People or a Contestant List. And I've heard that there's talk of improving things, either way. So, I think this thread might be good for discussing that.

I, personally, didn't mind the Favorite People list. And honestly, the kinds of people who just reject everything because they refuse to use it, or just don't want to be on any list, or my list, aren't the kinds of people I roleplay with. More or less, if the two features could be combined, and I could see where my friends are so I can jump in to roleplay? Sure!

But the Contestant List can also cause problems, too - I've seen people get up in arms because they were concerned about why two people were in a locked room together. So the argument isn't all black and white - it's all in ( Cool ) shades of grey.

Thoughts, opinions? (And please be nice.)


Yeah, there ain't no rest for the wiiicked...
 
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Matthew
 Thursday, September 20 2012 @ 10:30 PM UTC  
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I wouldn't want to see the contestants list taken out altogether, but I wouldn't mind if it was stripped down to just character name and last on. I'm guessing people don't look up another player to see their level, race, or sex very often at all, and while I do think a person's location is valuable to know (how many people are in this outpost I want to write in? Which people? Who's already over there, fighting in that breach?) I think it wouldn't be terrible to lose. You could always distract someone and ask if you really need to know.

Last Online is very useful for clan leaders and such, as talked about in the last thread.


 
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endarr
 Thursday, September 20 2012 @ 10:38 PM UTC  
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Well, I suppose it can be nice. And the idea behind it was good. I mean, it only told when people were online, not where they were.

The idea that it caused people to be able to stalk people was a bit ridiculous...the contestant list does that much better (and I should know, as it has been used for someone to stalk me...). In any case, that argument is a bit silly. And it is nice to be able to tell when your friends are online.

I suppose my only problem with it was the implications of not adding someone. If I forgot to send one to someone, or didn't really want someone knowing if I was online, I would feel bad for just saying 'no'...I mean, it's silly, but that's me...

All in all, the concept was a good idea, and less creepy than the contestant list.

Plus, then people who I didn't like wouldn't know if I was online or where I was...Like people who keep walking into my house and forced me to lock up...


What do you get when a dragon sneezes? Out of the way.
 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, September 20 2012 @ 10:41 PM UTC  
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In any forum, once a thread has been locked, starting another one on the same topic is generally considered to be very poor form.


 
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Raine Bofirn
 Thursday, September 20 2012 @ 10:43 PM UTC  
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Yeah, but it got blasted so quickly. I was already finding it useful, since I stick around in Dirk's bloody-huge-place-of-awesomeness-otherwise-known-as-Stonehenge-or-Valskyr.

It's useful if you spend a lot of time behind doors or so, and someone comes online. "Oh, hey! Hi!" Or it would be, if the contestant's list didn't already take care of letting people see where you are as long as they're in an Outpost.

Both features, or whichever one would become the main one, could use improvement, if we're going there. On one hand, you've got stalkerish people - on the other, hurt feelings from acception/rejection. So...


Yeah, there ain't no rest for the wiiicked...
 
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Raine Bofirn
 Thursday, September 20 2012 @ 10:44 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

In any forum, once a thread has been locked, starting another one on the same topic is generally considered to be very poor form.



Nngh. Frown


Yeah, there ain't no rest for the wiiicked...
 
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Collin-Vee
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 12:53 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

In any forum, once a thread has been locked, starting another one on the same topic is generally considered to be very poor form.



Poor form? Possibly, but I'm with Raine on this. At least that, just like the favorites bit, it was shot down too quickly. Some people didn't even see it! Most people I talked to in Banter didn't mind it but were wary of the change.


 
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endarr
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 01:55 AM UTC  
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Personally didn't know about the original thread until it was closed.


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lowkey
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 02:00 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

In any forum, once a thread has been locked, starting another one on the same topic is generally considered to be very poor form.



Acknowledged -- definitely the case!

On rare occasion, though, when a user breaks convention and starts a new thread -- perhaps it's because there's still some need for an outlet (albeit hopefully a reasonably peaceful one)?

Like Collin, I appreciate that Raine broke convention, as I was kind of sad that I hadn't had opportunity to throw my two cents in. So...here they be:

1) I thought it was actually pretty incredibly awesome that CMJ, in a fit of generosity, happened to ask users what they thought would be useful...and *immediately* coded it into being. Regardless of the final upshot -- just damn nifty.

2) The favorites feature itself...I found useful. I enjoy playing with all of the II community, but there are a few folks that I'm particular friends with. Sure, I can get in touch with them by email or messenger or distraction, or check the contestant list to see if they were on...but now, on logging in, I could see immediately if they happened to be on, and not miss a chance to see them. Win! And I liked that both users had to agree for this feature to be active for them; otherwise, it might have felt a little stalker-y if others had put me in as a favorite, without my knowledge. Not horrendously so, but...I appreciated that feature.


I've seen some posts where there was talk of how other users would feel, and how others would use or abuse the feature, or be threatened by it...maybe so. Can't speak for them. Me, I liked it.

That said...if the feature is a resource hog? Sure, makes sense to kill it.
If the majority of users find it to be a negative feature, and simply not using it would not suffice to make it neutral for them? So be it...makes sense to kill it. I wouldn't complain.
If the owner of the site makes an executive decision to remove it? ...heh. Yeah, that works, too. Wink

Did seem, though, that a handful of people spoke particularly negatively, voicing the purported opinions of many, how they expected many would feel...rather than a real show of hands. Thought the strong negativity was too bad, given that CMJ had just put such effort into the feature, trying to serve his community of users. Hell, I'd pull the plug, too, in the face of that. And speaking for others...why not encourage them to speak for themselves, instead?

Anyway. Thanks for trying. If it happened to come back...cool. If not...death goes on...


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 02:51 AM UTC  
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Yea, let it be known that, while I was there when CMJ said "I shall make this", and I was there when CMJ said "I shall scuttle this", I was nowhere in between, and this annoys me.

However, I understand the decision to quickly remove it; for one, I'm one of those people who feels uneasy around friends lists. I worry myself unduly over when I should put people on them. Moreover, making the Favorite People directly after the One True Banter change... it looks like CMJ was spitting in the eyes of people who are alienated by OTB. Same sort of "making people deal with other people" vibe.

However however, I think the feature could be made into something less likely to confuse the socially-awkward robot in all of us by changing the name to something less implying that you really like the person and by removing the mutual consent part. But some people seem to think that'd make it too stalkery.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 02:51 AM UTC  
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Yea, let it be known that, while I was there when CMJ said "I shall make this", and I was there when CMJ said "I shall scuttle this", I was nowhere in between, and this annoys me.

However, I understand the decision to quickly remove it; for one, I'm one of those people who feels uneasy around friends lists. I worry myself unduly over when I should put people on them. Moreover, making the Favorite People directly after the One True Banter change... it looks like CMJ was spitting in the eyes of people who are alienated by OTB. Same sort of "making people deal with other people" vibe.

However however, I think the feature could be made into something less likely to confuse the socially-awkward robot in all of us by changing the name to something less implying that you really like the person and by removing the mutual consent part. But some people seem to think that'd make it too stalkery.


 
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Raine Bofirn
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 02:57 AM UTC  
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Quote by: lowkey

Did seem, though, that a handful of people spoke particularly negatively, voicing the purported opinions of many, how they expected many would feel...rather than a real show of hands. Thought the strong negativity was too bad, given that CMJ had just put such effort into the feature, trying to serve his community of users. Hell, I'd pull the plug, too, in the face of that. And speaking for others...why not encourage them to speak for themselves, instead?



Yeah, that's kind of what I had in mind...and like End, I didn't even know about the thread until it was closed.

At the very least, it'd be nice to discuss things before things happened. And maybe this is a good place to iron out, exactly, what's going to be done!

In any case, I was always taught in school that happy people don't vote. So it takes a few happy people to step forward to give their side. And with both sides of things, everything can be figured out. I think I sound like a broken record, but...anyway!


Yeah, there ain't no rest for the wiiicked...
 
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Amerithe
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 04:09 AM UTC  
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I'll try to be short about this. I think the favorite people list, as an idea, was great. I think it'd be nice to tone down some of the language of it, because it can be unsettling depending on who you're adding. I think the list exists best with functionality to approve or decline requests, although I don't recall seeing that option when it initially came in to existence. It'd help with the stalker aspect, but still leave the social awkwardness issues. I think the list could also work well enough without a decline option, but then it's best to not notify people who've been added. It'd resolve the social awkwardness of not adding someone back, but still leave the awkward stalky opportunities. I am personally reluctant to let the potential drama of people getting upset over who added or didn't add them dissuade me from a feature I would find useful.

If it turns out that the list is a huge system resource hog even after being smoothed and streamlined, then kill it, fine. If a wider collection of opinions is collected and people don't want it, then kill it. I feel it was poorly handled to kill the idea after what seemed like a very small vote from a very active minority. With as few people seem to have even known it existed, I'm hard pressed to believe there was a sufficiently varied amount of input. I'd like to see it somehow put to a wider vote, but I don't recall right now if that's a thing CMJ can do.

In regards to it being inappropriate to start a new thread, it's still a subject people have opinions on, and as long as people can remain reasonably civil, I feel it's inappropriate to kill discussion of a function that would affect players, even if it's been cut for now. I don't believe that some sort of list like the shortlived Favourite People list will never be discussed again ever, or that the reaction won't be different if it comes up again. If people get out of hand in their discussion, then shutting it down makes sense, but I didn't see anything that I felt was excessive in the other thread, or so far in this one. I still don't know why the other one got shut down.

That's as un-ranty and un-soapboxy as I can get it. On the up side, I'm happy to have gotten to put my two cents on the record, and hope CMJ sees it.


 
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Iriana
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 07:52 AM UTC  
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Contrary to what you might think, the idea of a "Favorites list" or "Friends list" has come up several times before, in older threads. But every time it's been met with negativity from nearly everyone. I'm actually not entirely sure why CMJ decided now, briefly, that it was a good idea again. Was it something that people requested in a Banter conversation with him?

I don't take this game too seriously, or at least I try my best not too, but reading the other thread actually made me feel sick with anxiety. (Boy, I sound like a drama queen. Sorry! I don't mean to.) I logged in to one Distraction from the system before it got shut down and it just--this feature is terrifying to me, and I can't figure out how to explain why. I'm sorry, this is not constructive. It's just that there's so much potential for hurt feelings and drama and anxiety and crippling nervousness in this thing. Writing is scary enough without tangible notification of validation or non-validation.

Basically: it's been talked about before, and all the positive and negative aspects have been laid out before. The negatives are significant enough that it's never been put into place before now. The negatives are still there, and significant enough that it was killed.

I have to remind myself of this sometimes too, but this has never been a democracy. We are very lucky that we have a game admin who cares enough to let us say whatever we want about the changes he puts into the game, but if it's his decision to kill something based on the (valid) outcry of a few people, then it's his decision. Until he says otherwise, I have the right to yell about things on the Enquirer, but I also have to remember that what I say might not necessarily mean anything at all. And that's okay. That's a good way to run a game.

I'd like an updated Contestant List--I wouldn't mind having the Place-level location gone, but I'd appreciate knowing if someone was in an outpost. That's not particularly stalky, I feel. It's only when it gets down to the people-in-a-locked-room sort of situation that the List creates the possibility for drama.


 
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DaemonThanatos
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 09:00 AM UTC  
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Okay. The main problem I'm seeing here is that people aren't giving new content an actual chance. They shoot it down within minutes of it going up, if they don't like the idea itself. Yet they never actually try it. They never even bother to use the features given to them. And why is this? Because they don't like seeing so many changes.

Change is good, people. Change is very good. But you're taking all these ideas, and throwing them back in people's faces.

CMJ has worked very, very hard on trying to fix up Improbable Island. And all people do is complain about the new, awesome features. Without even giving it a week. We can't keep doing this to the poor guy. He's got a life, too, and more than that, a family that needs him. We can't keep him from that, because all we want to do is whine and complain that everything is wrong. That all this new stuff is just a waste of time and space.

So I'm asking, folks. Give it all a chance. Don't drag CMJ away from his busy schedule to remove the things he just put in. Because that takes away from all the time he could be putting into fixing some of the other issues. The bigger ones.

CMJ isn't some "Almighty Wizard" with a magic wand. No. He's human, just like the rest of us. A guy on the other end of the internet, with experience in software programming. And he sits at his computer, just like the rest of us. I can guarantee he doesn't want to log in to see a whole inbox filled with nothing but complaints. I can also guarantee he's working his fingers to the bone programming all this, just so we can enjoy Improbable Island more. He may not be a Wizard, but he's damn awesome. So don't give him grief. He's just trying out new things, to try and make the game more enjoyable for you, the player.


 
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Mr Geppetto
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 09:01 AM UTC  
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Firstly*, I know it's not exactly good form posting in a thread that was started in the place of a thread that's been closed, see, since it was closed, it must have been closed for a reason. I suspect said reason would be the potential for drama and/or unproductive conflict arising from it. Or bad vibe, or whatchamacallit.

But. As it was previously stated before, it went away so damn quickly, I just had time to see it, say to myself I'll add my two cents later and.. poof. And since I've spent a few neural cells coming up with something I deem as potentially useful, please don't let those poor brave cells' sacrifice be in vain! Big Grin

So here it is: I get why that favorites thingummy would be non desirable. I wouldn't want it myself, from what I gather from the forums, since I didn't get to use it myself. But there's been talk about scrapping the contestant list too. Might there be a possibility (that wouldn't be a nightmare to code) to tone it down a bit? Wash the child, instead of making a new one (or throwing it with the bathwater**)? Lessay the 'two locked in a room' is creating drama? I remember at one point the c. list would only show a player's position if said player was in an outpost, or on the map. For the people in a place it just said "dwelling" or somesuch, without naming the dwelling (it was before places, I think). Would it be complicated/a Bad thing/unproductive to revert to something of the kind? Also scrapping info like race and level wouldn't hurt a bit, I think. That would streamline it, avoid drama, while still keeping features that clan leaders and players coordinating mob scenes find useful (namely outpost location of certain players and time since those have logged in last). I would awfully like to see it kept, in this kind of shape.

Also, instead of favorites, maybe a sort of groups facility? Meaning... uhm, I dunno at a glance, using some sort of filters? There's for instance the 'online list' in the clanhalls, very useful that, showing online members of your own clan. Thinking back on how contraptions work, maybe a 'show me zombies' kind of thing or, if it doesn't have drama potential ***, a group you specify yourself, of people you often play with? Of course, if it's not a nightmare to code and doesn't put undue strain on server and whatnot.

I do hope this long (shortened as much as I can) rant of mine might serve some useful purpose and I apologize if it doesn't and merely clutters up a thread that by all rights should be dead.

--------------------

* I strongly suspect that's not proper English, but I love the sound of it.
** I have a feeling the use of idiom here is somewhat muddled
*** I tried to analyse it from that point of view and failed to find it, but I think I'm not the best person to judge, being of a rather pacifist nature myself and not good at all at dealing with large groups of different people. Besides not being able to take anything very seriously, including myself. Big Grin


 
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Iriana
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 09:28 AM UTC  
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I think there are things that don't deserve chances, and this is one of them. If you discuss something sensibly and then decide that it is a bad idea, there's no point to giving it a chance. "Look at how fluffy it is! It loves the taste of human flesh, but maybe it'll make a really good pet! We should just give it a week and see."

And DaemonThanatos, I think you're blowing this up bigger than it is. (I've never seen more appeals to pathos stuffed into a single post.) It isn't all" these ideas and we're not "throwing them back in people's faces"--I can only think of two recent game changes that have prompted much debate at all. We all respect CMJ; it's unfair and unconstructive to make it out like we don't.


 
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DaemonThanatos
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 09:36 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana

I think there are things that don't deserve chances. This is one of them. If you discuss something sensibly and then decide that it is a bad idea, there's no point to giving it a chance. "Look at how fluffy it is! It loves the taste of human flesh, but maybe it'll make a really good pet! We should just give it a week and see."

DaemonThanatos, I think you're blowing this up bigger than it is. (I've never seen more appeals to pathos stuffed into a single post.) It is not "all" these ideas and we're not "throwing them back in people's faces"--I can only think of two recent game changes that have prompted much debate at all. We all respect CMJ; it's unfair and unconstructive to make it out like we don't.






I can see that you didn't understand what I had to say at all. You clearly have no concept of just how many ideas are shot down the moment they go up. Or are even brought into context. You do not realize that people refuse to give new things a chance because they don't like change. I may not be a psychologist, or a teacher, but I still study the behaviors of others as I observe them around me. I know people do not like change. Even small changes are too much, for many people. The fact that so many small changes are constantly "vetoed" by other players actually does take away from the time CMJ could be devoting to fixing the larger problems with II.

(internet dick-waving portion of this post removed by CMJ)


 
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Matthew
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 09:59 AM UTC  
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(internet dick-waving post removed by CMJ)


 
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DaemonThanatos
 Friday, September 21 2012 @ 10:03 AM UTC  
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(internet dick-waving post removed by CMJ)


 
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