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 The "player" update to Banter
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Tainnryst
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 02:33 PM UTC (Read 7700 times)  
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Since this has been a fairly common discussion in banter, I figured it'd be appropriate to post up a topic and hopefully gather opinions on the recent update to banter.

For those of you who aren't aware, essentially (in Global Banter only) the word " player" has been added onto everyone's posts automatically, immediately following their name (for example, I appear as "Tainnryst's player").

There was a lot of discussion (and some arguing, I won't lie) about this, how it is inconvenient, takes up space, and disrupts the flow of banter for some. I am thinking that it may just become background noise eventually, but while it's an issue I'm just going to throw the discussion out there and see what everyone has to say.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you have any ideas on changing it (or otherwise, why shouldn't it be changed)? I'm curious as to everyone's opinions, and it may help to solve the problem before it (possibly) becomes bigger.


 
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dizzyizzy
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 05:09 PM UTC  
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It's unwieldy, but since it's meant to address the single problem that annoys me most on II, I'm not gonna complain too much.

Maybe it should be changed to "narrator", though. It would be a little longer, but it would reflect the established lingo of the island.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 05:16 PM UTC  
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This update threw me into a state of inner turmoil. On the one hand, I am a strong supporter of the seperation between church and state in-character and out-of-character, which people sometimes seem to forget in Banter. However, I'm also a big fan of efficiency of communication, and adding an extra word to every post seems space-consuming and redundant.

I am happy to report, however, that I've now gotten used to the change, and don't really care anymore. In other news, I'm wonder how this will function in Season Three, with accounts having more than one character. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that there will be different roll-overs for Story and Banter, but will Banter display "[character]'s player" or "[Account name]" or "[Account name]'s player" or what? I eagerly await CMJ's thoughts on the subject.

P.S. I oppose the motion to change "player" to "narrator"; I never liked the term "narrator"; it sounds a little pretenious, and I'm of the firm belief that there should only be one narrator per story and that is Jesus, amen! . Furthermore, I find the extra syllable bourgeious and unattractive. Luckily, I have inerta on my side, so I feel pretty confident the change won't happen.


 
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Trowa
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 05:37 PM UTC  
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I, for one, welcome our new "'s player" overlords.

I don't have any complaints about it right now. I don't find it as disruptive as I thought I would when I first read this thread. In fact, I like it being the little reminder of the separation between OOC and IC. People tackle-hugging and snogging each other in Banter will look as silly as it ought to - whether that's positive or negative is entirely up to you.

Maybe I'm in a minority, but I've generally never been a big fan of roleplaying in Banter with people's characters as OOC constructs - i.e. treating someone who is a man in real-life as a big-breasted woman in Banter simply because that man chooses to play a big-breasted woman in Story. (I am including myself, mind you! Razz ) I just do because everyone else does, and I tend to either go with the flow or ignore it entirely and not say anything. (Not always, of course, but since we're discussing the matter...)

Not only have I felt a sort of unease with the Banter roleplaying, but I've always felt I had to watch my gender pronouns concerning myself because it still felt like my character was the one chatting in Banter - not me - and that I had to 'stay in character.' I might still change my gender pronouns in Banter out of habit, but I will be less inclined to do so with the "'s player" attached to them. This is also why I have avoided Banter on some of my alts, because I felt like the character themselves were far too different from me that there was going to be too much of a dichotomy in personalities to write both Story and Banter at the same time.

Finally, with regards to the word "player," I do not like "narrator" as a replacement, but "writer" could work for me. A bit more literal, but then again this is a game, too, even if these days I feel it's secondary to the Story element.


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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dizzyizzy
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 05:43 PM UTC  
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Why don't you like narrator?


 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 05:48 PM UTC  
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I've scanned back through global banter this morning, and -- I've probably just missed it, but -- I can't find what actual problems have been noticed, beyond, "It's different and now I'm grumpy because I'm going to have to change some things about how I interact in global banter."

Well, yes. You are. At least, we really hope some things are going to change.

There's a reason people are being reminded with every post that Banter is Out Of Character. It was always intended to be exactly that, from the beginning, but people started treating it as just another roleplaying space, except with no rules or limitations. No matter how often mods kept telling players that in Banter they were speaking as themselves, that message kept getting overridden by the format which made it look like it was the character speaking.

Any system that relies on everyone remembering a non-obvious convention all the time is bound to fail.

And fail it did. Banter was right out there as the first thing new players would see -- and what was it full of? You all know. Even at its most benign, there were a lot of people acting like cats. Glomping, nomming, licking, cuddling, lying on top of each other in a big furry kittypile. This is lovely for you if you're into that sort of thing. Oddly enough, though, a very large number of people aren't, and seeing that all the time is not at all lovely for them. And then there were always a few players coming along who interpreted this as license to do anything they wanted.

CMJ hated it. This was not how he wanted his world to present itself to newcomers.

So, what has changed? Only this: now, when you say or do something in the very public Global Banter, it is explicitly stated every time that you yourself, the real-life human being who's out there typing on a keyboard, are the one who's saying or doing it.

Instead of
Sessine swirls his black cloak dramatically, and leaves Banter! Farewell!
it now says, maybe:
Sessine's player swirls her black cloak dramatically, and leaves for what she hopes will be a cool costume party.

I hope it works. I think it will. I have faith in the Island's players. (And, bonus! if it does, that's one less thing we mods will have to keep nattering on about.)

On 'narrator' vs. 'player': We are all players. Not all of us are roleplayers -- but everyone is entitled to post in Banter. 'Player' is more accurate, and more inclusive. For that reason, it's going to stay.


 
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Trowa
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 06:08 PM UTC  
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Oh, I guess I'm not in a minority as I thought? ^^;

Quote by: Count+Sessine

On 'narrator' vs. 'player': We are all players. Not all of us are roleplayers -- but everyone is entitled to post in Banter. 'Player' is more accurate, and more inclusive. For that reason, it's going to stay.


Well put! That makes sense out of what I was thinking but didn't articulate correctly at the end of my last post. I was just thinking of my own opinion there, and hadn't applied my reasoning to how everyone else would feel. So, hopefully, that also answers your question, Dizzy. If not, Distract me.

At the risk of strangulation from the Admin, though, I had an idea just now that perhaps we could get predetermined options sometime down the road to customize the word "player" to something else, like "narrator" and "writer"? Maybe in Season 3?

...maybe I'll shut up now. Wink


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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dizzyizzy
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 06:10 PM UTC  
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Ah, right. I often forget there's people that don't roleplay, since the gameplay is incredibly dull and it's unfathomable to me that anyone could enjoy it. Wink


 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 06:19 PM UTC  
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Quote by: dizzyizzy

Ah, right. I often forget there's people that don't roleplay, since the gameplay is incredibly dull and it's unfathomable to me that anyone could enjoy it. Wink

To each his own, Dizzy. Improbable Island offers a number of paths. Some players explore all of them, some prefer not to.

You have only to look at the Hall of Fame to realize that quite a few don't share your opinion of the gameplay. Oh, wait... what's that about 128 DKs? (Also, let's not forget the builders!)


 
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dizzyizzy
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 06:54 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: dizzyizzy

Ah, right. I often forget there's people that don't roleplay, since the gameplay is incredibly dull and it's unfathomable to me that anyone could enjoy it. Wink

To each his own, Dizzy. Improbable Island offers a number of paths. Some players explore all of them, some prefer not to.

You have only to look at the Hall of Fame to realize that quite a few don't share your opinion of the gameplay. Oh, wait... what's that about 128 DKs? (Also, let's not forget the builders!)



The gameplay used to be fun! Now my attack is massive, Dizzy's a tank, and the only strategy I need is to spam suicidal fights. I do it for the cigs, now, to support my building habit, and my building habit supports my roleplay habit. It's all connected, like the great circle of life. Or lack of a life. Or something.


 
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Ada
 Monday, April 14 2014 @ 11:04 PM UTC  
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This update should probably be extended to Location Four as well for consistency. Yeah, it's got a big "this isn't for roleplaying" sign at the top, but then, so does Banter when you first start out. Seems odd to have "'s player" in one ooc place but not the other.


 
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Conchris
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 12:42 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada

This update should probably be extended to Location Four as well for consistency. Yeah, it's got a big "this isn't for roleplaying" sign at the top, but then, so does Banter when you first start out. Seems odd to have "'s player" in one ooc place but not the other.



Although I have forgotten that Location Four was a thing, it is still a thing, and I agree with this, for consistency's sake.

Now, on the topic of the whole "so-and-so's player says" thing, after a while of chatting in Banter (coupled with playing in Story), I've come to the conclusion that I kind of like it. Since now that there's a suffix of "so-and-so's player", I've felt that now I can play as a female character on the island without having to resort to either using male pronouns and getting weird looks or female pronouns and having this weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. Although I probably would use the former more than the latter in most cases, the ' 's player' thing helps ease this somewhat.

In short, I like the change because of the freedom it gives, and I pray that the long term effects are beneficial for Global Banter and, subsequently, the island as a whole.


 
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Temper
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 01:36 AM UTC  
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I am going to say that I think the new word addition is ugly. I dislike it, I dislike being stuck with the plain grey "'s player," after every post, and I really wish it wasn't necessary.


That said, I can see why it was. I've never been overly comfortable with the touchfests that sprung up in Banter. As another point, I have to admit I see this as being a more constructive way of fixing the problem, as opposed to CMJ coming out and saying "Dudes and ladies you can't touch each other in Banter," because as I've seen, people are getting touchier (testier, if you'd rather a less potentially confusing word choice) and "we can't do anything anymore in Banter"-ier lately, and adding the new... addition will hopefully be a little less "I'm going to beat you with this hose if you do this again," and more, "You do this again and you're going to look a lot more like a weirdo than you used to, pal."

As a note, I'd really like the possibility to change our "'s player"'s color scheme. That would make it a little less ugly, if it were possible.


 
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Denealus
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 01:56 AM UTC  
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As I've been a bit vocal about things (as I tend to be about things), I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I neither like nor dislike the change.

I am, however, rather skeptical it's going to make much difference. Those with diffuse IC/OOC boundaries aren't going to be really stifled by a mere word. The people I've seen offending most continue to offend or find ways around the issue, because people are people no matter the words. People who had pretty steady IC/OOC boundaries didn't really need it, people who needed it aren't likely going to get the point, etc. And in some ways, it takes away from some creativity.

So, it'd be odd to say that I was thinking about this today and I'm for it? With a caveat. I don't know if it was necessarily taken far enough. As long as rollovers are there in global banter, people are going to continue to see themselves as their character and act upon them. Or react to cuter avis versus not.

So, I'm curious what people would think about keeping the "'s player" addition and removing rollovers in global banter. If that's possible with coding. I mean, people argued earlier that seeing a rollover in Banter lets you know who you'd play with but really? Why should interactions be based off of that? They can see what type of player you are by your words, click on your bio. It's just not outright there to see the player that they're playing with/talking to is actually a catgirl. So you wouldn't automatically react to them as a cat girl.

Food for thought. I was going to pose to take it one step further and not have titles appear in Banter as well, but that might be more steamrolling change all at once than is necessary.


 
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Ada
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 02:03 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Denealus

Food for thought. I was going to pose to take it one step further and not have titles appear in Banter as well, but that might be more steamrolling change all at once than is necessary.



Taking off the rollovers makes a lot of sense to me, more even than adding the "'s player". Taking off the titles doesn't though - given that not all of them are roleplay-based. Seems a bit of a shame for the game-only-players to have the fun of titles taken away from them because they don't roleplay.


 
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Tamar
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 02:12 AM UTC  
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I didn't mind the old banter, the shenanigans there was part of the charm for me. However, many people see a problem with this so I would not object to the proposed change of getting rid of the roll over.


I will miss exploding.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 02:21 AM UTC  
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Losing rollovers makes a lot of sense. We'll need a convenient way to check your own rollover without posting, though. Perhaps something just under chat.


 
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Tinkerbinker
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 02:24 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Denealus


So, I'm curious what people would think about keeping the "'s player" addition and removing rollovers in global banter. If that's possible with coding. I mean, people argued earlier that seeing a rollover in Banter lets you know who you'd play with but really? Why should interactions be based off of that? They can see what type of player you are by your words, click on your bio. It's just not outright there to see the player that they're playing with/talking to is actually a catgirl. So you wouldn't automatically react to them as a cat girl.

Food for thought. I was going to pose to take it one step further and not have titles appear in Banter as well, but that might be more steamrolling change all at once than is necessary.



I... would rather object to the idea of removing rollovers, as I don't see how this would help. The "'s player" already does everything that removing rollovers would.
I test my rollover in banter, and I adore being able to see someone else's rollover in banter. There are a lot of creative ones! With my current work schedule, I probably wouldn't get to see a lot of them without banter. That's not something that a testing function would fix, even though that would lovely.

The thing that does help improve banter, from what I've seen, is addressing the problem behavior. Providing a separation in banter in terms of it being OOC is great - but there's a point where it gets redundant.


 
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Denealus
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 02:40 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Tinkerbinker


The thing that does help improve banter, from what I've seen, is addressing the problem behavior. Providing a separation in banter in terms of it being OOC is great - but there's a point where it gets redundant.



This is very true and should be the top priority. However, at the very least, it'd be a lot harder to react to someone as their character if they didn't have an avi telling everyone they're really a anime or cat girl.

I am also of the firm opinion that this won't fix everything. There's some people who are just die-hard adamant to continuing their behavior. This'll just make those people that much more apparent, I think.


 
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Rucin
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 06:57 AM UTC  
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I am of the strong opinion that the recent update to banter is a needless and potentially detrimental change.
The addition of "-'s player" reminds us that these are indeed people with whom we are conversing--the majority of them strangers to us. Therefore, when a new arrival enters, they will be immediately informed that they are in a room full of strangers. Add to that the addition of the global nature of banter, and there will be a slew of talk between a wide distribution of people, none of whom are familiar.
I have long been irked by persons who leave the story channel because it becomes too active, and now it saddens me to see people logging out of teh island while citing an overpopulous banter as a cause.
In addition to that, the lengthening of the textbar causes additional lines to be created where they might have been shorter previously, which can cause a jagged appearance that becomes difficult to read as the scrolling length increases--as with the relatively common 'too long; didn't read' mindset propogating amongst our society.
A reason I have heard some claim is that it is also intended to discourage roleplay in the banter channel. But I am concerned of this, as it previously provided a way for interaction that was not-quite in character but still permitted people to familiarize themselves with the types of interaction. This can be essential in cases where one's characters are on bad terms with one another, but the persons still wish to interact in a non-personal manner. I admit that this could be solved by relocating to a personal enclosure, but this would necessitate being removed from the island at large.
The global presence of a single banter also results in the unpleasantness being spread through the entire island, most of which is of a largely subbjective variety: whereas previously, persons who felt a need to nuzzle with one another were able to do so without causing disruption in Kittania, and persons could remove the New-Home kid's glove speech limitations when outside of the outpost proper, we are now all left to walk on eggshells, so to speak. Before, persons who did not wish to be included in or view such activities could refrain from entering the outposts in which they were occuring at the time; while now, those who are incensed at the sight of affection or dishevelment or bent upon imposing a Puritanical ideal of acceptable behaviors are unable to remove themselves from such events.

It is my belief that the most effective solution to the various flavors of challenge presented would be to reintroduce 'local' banter as a default option, with global toggle selectable at the top of the channel where we currently have the 'hide' and 'stack' options. In this manner, those enterig the island for the first time or wanting to close out the noise of the majority can be set into local as they get acclimated, while those looking to organize at a higher level or hold conversations with the world at large can do so at their leisure. I thik it would be particularly useful if they were slightly intermingled: What I propose is, that those posting in the local channel be given a particular color of the indicator light (or other form of identification) while still -appearing- in the global space, so that those wishing to assist rookies (as Kell voiced a concern of when I first drafted this concept) can be able to see when a new person arrives or is in need of assistance, without havign to abandon global chat or inconvenience themselves by clicking it on/off.
The global could then be treated as a user-friendly toggle switch, enabling everyone to be appeased or isolated as they see fit.

Unfortunately, the whirlwind of thought has passed from me, so I can no longer recall what I was just talking about, but I would enjoy comments and critiques of the idea. Actually, being honest, I don't know if I would enjoy it or not, but I do not wish to appear as though I am opposed to improvement or dialogue.


 
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