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Hairy Mary
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:13 PM UTC  
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Can I sum up some of the ideas we've had so far? They're making my head spin a bit. (Sic Puess, 'How many mutants can you fit in a tent didn't help.) A few thoughts of my own thrown in.

Lockers.
You can still have lockers for items, just make sure that the lockers empty with a DK. After all your bank balance does, so why not? Some people might well find it useful to have a grenade/medikit stash in the middle of nowhere. I'm finding that my backpack (1 stage up from the basic version) is more than big enough, so it wouldn't do me so much good. But then I don't tend to stock up on grenades etc. anyway. Maybe other peoples play styles might give them a different experience. Also, as more items start coming along, that might change. (How much space does a tent take up for example?)

Kitchens.
Kitchens, use less stamina for cooking - also can they be used for pickling/making jerky or whatever? This idea has been mentioned a few times. Jerky is less nutritous, but lasts longer (although not through a DK of course). There could be a pickling skill, virtually identical to the cooking skill, and whatserface's cook shop could run similar courses.

Bedrooms.
Where you sleep affects your stamina the next day. After all, sleeping in the ocean can't really be good for a restful night can it?

Seperate lockable areas.
Hugely useful for roleplayers. Also, being able to 'clear' chat areas. Does this mean getting rid of old musings altogether, or just starting a new page? Could people find out about your old goings on if they were sufficiently motivated to hunt?

Garage for safely storing scrapbots.
Not sure how this is going to work yet. Have to wait until the scrapbot system is in place really. (How's that going by the way?)

Bar.
Is beer going to be giftable? If so, let people buy in barrels from the Spiderkitty and have them in their homes. Great for parties.

Pool room.
Very speculative idea this one. Have pool playing as a skill, increases with practice. Have a pool table in the PSK where you have to pay for a game, or you can have your own table at home. Have the PSK have a plaque on the wall with the name of the best pool player on the island. Good for those who like Hall of Fame type stuff. Works on an invite basis, similar to the new PvP that we're going to get, (if I've got that right.)

That's all the rooms I think.

Now. For a dwelling, (tent or fixed residence) you start off with one room with a chatspace and a lock. You can buy extra rooms (DP/cigs/req) then pay varying amounts to have them fitted with their own locks, or upgraded to one of the special rooms above. Maybe you have to pay to have a chatspace in them as well? You also have to pay for upkeep. Start with the room in perfect nick. If upkeep isn't paid, then start having moldy patches on the ceiling, rain coming in, and then the roof collapses, and the room can't be used. Allow players to have whatever links they want between rooms, or make them pay for that as well.

Living tents are a great idea, but I agree with KK, have fixed dwellings also. Not going to list all the seperate ideas for tents.

To make them more of a physical space, the first thing that needs to be done is replace 'page1...' with 'Street 1...' It would be better still if they had individual names, but then who's going to name them?

For someone's real estate idea, (Zolotisty?) Have the highest priced real estate at the top of the list.

If someone leaves the island, then their dwelling disappears as well. You're right, there were far too many unfinished buildings around. Having dwellings fall into disrepair and then falling down altogether also helps this. This should happen rather quicker if a whole DK has gone by without anything being done on them or in them.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:16 PM UTC  
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Okay, Dwellings as they stand now?

Not terribly flexible.

I'll try not to get into too many codey details, but to put it simply - Dwellings were never designed for Improbable Island. They were designed for Legend of the Green Dragon, and as such, they don't understand Stamina, IItems, or the World Map. So, making it so that you've got to collect materials with which to build a Dwelling - yeah, there's a module to do that already, but that module wasn't designed to work with the World Map, or with Stamina. So, we figure out the actions, level ladder, consequences of performing the action while in amber, we make some IItems to represent the various resources (figure out their weights and other attributes, write descriptions, make images), and we rewrite the dwelling resource construction module from scratch, hooking into the World Map rather than the traditional lumberyard and quarry modules (the ones designed for LotGD servers with a single village and no map).

So yeah, that's something that I'd like to do, but it will take a while.

The things that KK mentioned:

Give us a way to customize it. Suppose instead of me building a mansion, and it being called in the listings 'A Mansion' why not let us call them what we like, 'A Compound,' or 'A library' or 'A Citadel.'

Give us more room to write the descriptions for things. Whatever the number for it was before? Was far too little. Hell, I could write paragraphs, (And somehow did, actually,) about the insides of my houses.

The ability to find the materials as a discount to buying them ourselves. I think it'd be fun to go out and play lumber jack or stone miner for some of the materials that we need.

Training bonuses, there is no reason why I cannot practice cooking in my own kitchen.

Stamina bonuses. Sleeping in my own comfy bed is a lot better than on the ground someplace.

Services inside. What's a mansion without a cook? Suppose paying for some supplies to be dropped off, have your cooks make something for you instead of needing to go out to eat.

Locks on individual rooms and the like. I don't want the kids getting into the armory, they'll shoot their eyes out.


These are going to take a While. In fact, they're probably going to take longer with the existing Dwellings system than they would do if I rewrote Dwellings from scratch. And many of these things would be infinitely easier to write with an object-oriented Tents system.

So, right now I'm thinking about rebuilding both systems from scratch, but basing Outpost-specific Dwellings on the Tents system.

(by which I don't mean "Outpost Dwellings will be Tents," I mean "Much of the code in the Tents system will also be used in Dwellings." It makes sense for these two features to have a shared library and database table.)


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:20 PM UTC  
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Alright, feelin' a little more reassured there then.

I'm only concerned about the bits of the tents leaking into the dwellings. Again, while it'd be really cool and everything to have a dwelling that fell apart as it went on with age, how many of you have to go about your house and patch the roof weekly? Hell, I could understand getting a bare minimum repainting every like, five years. But Hell, there isn't that much upkeep that really goes into a house, besides actually living in it, and that's all just house cleaning and that. It's not like the walls are of a crappy enough quality that you'll need to replaster them on even a monthly or quarterly basis.


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CavemanJoe
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:23 PM UTC  
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Honestly I'm not fond of the idea of upkeep for Dwellings. Tents are different, as I can see them being better than Dwellings in many respects, so worth the feeding - but upkeep of Dwellings sounds more like work than play.


 
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Symar
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:24 PM UTC  
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Quote by: K.K.+Victoria

Again, while it'd be really cool and everything to have a dwelling that fell apart as it went on with age, how many of you have to go about your house and patch the roof weekly? Hell, I could understand getting a bare minimum repainting every like, five years. But Hell, there isn't that much upkeep that really goes into a house, besides actually living in it, and that's all just house cleaning and that. It's not like the walls are of a crappy enough quality that you'll need to replaster them on even a monthly or quarterly basis.



Seconded. (And I know what I'm talking about, my family's in residential construction.)


 
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Zolotisty
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:25 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Honestly I'm not fond of the idea of upkeep for Dwellings. Tents are different, as I can see them being better than Dwellings in many respects, so worth the feeding - but upkeep of Dwellings sounds more like work than play.



Said the man who scoffed when people called the Scrapyard in S1 work. Wink

OK, so, this still brings us back to the drawing board. What's the short-term solution? ..Is there one?


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K.K. Victoria
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:26 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Honestly I'm not fond of the idea of upkeep for Dwellings. Tents are different, as I can see them being better than Dwellings in many respects, so worth the feeding - but upkeep of Dwellings sounds more like work than play.



That is supremely reassuring. You'd live in a right proper Shithole if you needed to repair your walls every week.


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CavemanJoe
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:26 PM UTC  
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Quote by: K.K.+Victoria

I'm only concerned about the bits of the tents leaking into the dwellings.



Clarification - When I say sharing parts of the code, I mean (grossly oversimplified, but hey) "This is a thing that a person is inside. This thing belongs to this person. This thing is this big. This thing has this many other things hooked in. This thing has a chatspace and a description. This thing is at (NewHome / map xyz co-ords). Oh, and to any modules peeking in - this thing's type is "dwelling" or "tent."


 
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CavemanJoe
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:32 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Zolotisty

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Honestly I'm not fond of the idea of upkeep for Dwellings. Tents are different, as I can see them being better than Dwellings in many respects, so worth the feeding - but upkeep of Dwellings sounds more like work than play.



Said the man who scoffed when people called the Scrapyard in S1 work. Wink

OK, so, this still brings us back to the drawing board. What's the short-term solution? ..Is there one?



Shortest-term solution coding-wise is probably gonna be one of these two things:

1. Reinstate Dwellings as they were in S1. I can do this in an hour, but I don't like this idea - if we start off with the old Dwellings, what happens when we switch over to the new ones? What about the folks who didn't have to forage for materials? Do we knock it all down and start again?
2. Sort a rudimentary Tents system whose only benefit at the moment is a chatspace and Stamina boost for overnight Tent sleepage, and expand upon it later. A few hours to figure out the best way to make it in line with S2's philosophies (namely, "Don't ever make a framework that you can't make more awesome later"), and then a couple of days, maybe.
3. Very short-term, disposable module - let players spawn chat areas on the World Map.
(heh - code-wise, this is about 70% of a basic Tents system. Razz )
4. Open to ideas - watch this space!


 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:34 PM UTC  


Had to sign up for this thread specifically! Just yesterday mentioned something to Zolotisty about having private chatspaces, and lo and behold, Here's a thread about dwellings.

Living tents: yes. Yes and yes. That is cool.

HOWEVER.

Ebenezer and I cannot afford to buy bundles and bundles of DP just to have a tent and keep it fed. That is not cool. Yes, coming across tents in the wilderness or in IItem crates. But Glop as a mainly DP item? No way, man. I'm sorry, but I'm not spending money on that, especially when the tent can wither away and die. If that's to be our only dwelling option, that discludes a lot of people from the private chat system, and I'm personally all for having private chatspaces. I love the roleplaying aspect of the game, but it would be so much easier if people could "go home" for some plots.

In-town dwellings of some kind would be fantastic. I personally don't have much I'd spend cigs on. Luggage upgrades, yes. Maybe mounts. Not items that are going to disappear at some point. Eventually, I'll just start wasting cigs on tattoos. Lamesauce. I would love an option to buy in-town dwellings for cigs, and upgrades for cigs or req. That would be fantastic. That would fulfill all my dreams.

And maybe we don't tie the dwellings themselves into the Heads Up stuff. How about this:

Basic dwelling is one room with chatpace. You have options to set up a campfire to cook on or sleep on the floor (log out?).
Upgrade dwellings to add rooms.
Upgrade dwellings to add locks on separate rooms. (Open to public or private with on/off switches?)
Spend req to change the description of a room in your dwelling. Paint the walls, add windows, make it a palace?

Items to last between DKs, as dwelling-only items!
Buy an oven and use less stamina cooking.
Buy a fridge and store food for a short period.
Buy a bed and get a stamina bonus for not sleeping on the floor.

For maintenance and improvements, spend req or harvest materials to repair things or add windows. Basic dwelling stats could be displayed, showing condition, rooms, and windows. Thus, everyone would marvel at how awesome your dwelling is, or spit on you for sucking. And you could still "decorate" the interior however you want with the room descriptions.


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:37 PM UTC  
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Shortest-term solution coding-wise is probably gonna be one of these two things:

1. Reinstate Dwellings as they were in S1. I can do this in an hour, but I don't like this idea - if we start off with the old Dwellings, what happens when we switch over to the new ones? What about the folks who didn't have to forage for materials? Do we knock it all down and start again?
2. Sort a rudimentary Tents system whose only benefit at the moment is a chatspace and Stamina boost for overnight Tent sleepage, and expand upon it later. A few hours to figure out the best way to make it in line with S2's philosophies (namely, "Don't ever make a framework that you can't make more awesome later"), and then a couple of days, maybe.
3. Very short-term, disposable module - let players spawn chat areas on the World Map.
(heh - code-wise, this is about 70% of a basic Tents system. Razz )
4. Open to ideas - watch this space!


I think that you might wanna scratch off the first one. That'd just cause some inconsistencies and other problems. Hell, we've waited for a while, what's a bit more, you know? May as well do it the right way the first time, rather than have to dig through and rewrite some bits later.


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Fergus
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:37 PM UTC  
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I understand what you mean with the 'tent' and 'dwelling' codes being alike so I definitely say go for it, it'll make it a lot faster if you don't have to make the same basic thing twice from scratch.

As for the separation of tent and estate (yay puns), MAKE THE TENT MORE WORTH IT THAN A DWELLING. Tents will use more DPs no matter what, even though they should not be DP only. Make them the ones that get slightly better features than dwellings. Since tents can keep expanding it makes more sense, give them less of a limit to rooms while a dwelling can only have x amount of rooms, making people choose more carefully what they really want out of a dwelling. Make a dwelling worth having of course, perhaps slightly 'stronger' buffs/services provided by its rooms since you only get so many rooms to add on.
To be in the town and close to its shops/services, you should sacrifice some of the freedom and extra room you have with a tent.


 
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Bernard
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:38 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Escemfer



Basic dwelling is one room with chatpace. You have options to set up a campfire to cook on or sleep on the floor (log out?).
Upgrade dwellings to add rooms.
Upgrade dwellings to add locks on separate rooms. (Open to public or private with on/off switches?)
Spend req to change the description of a room in your dwelling. Paint the walls, add windows, make it a palace?

Items to last between DKs, as dwelling-only items!
Buy an oven and use less stamina cooking.
Buy a fridge and store food for a short period.
Buy a bed and get a stamina bonus for not sleeping on the floor.

For maintenance and improvements, spend req or harvest materials to repair things or add windows. Basic dwelling stats could be displayed, showing condition, rooms, and windows. Thus, everyone would marvel at how awesome your dwelling is, or spit on you for sucking. And you could still "decorate" the interior however you want with the room descriptions.



I loikes this, we can move away from shacks and cottaging. We start small and we'll work towards a nice house somewhere.


 
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Zolotisty
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:39 PM UTC  
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Oh hello, Escemfer; pleased to see you contributing here! Big Grin


I personally vote number two but I think nnnumbah one would also work -- some terrible cross-Island event could wipe 'em all out and people can be partially reimbursed for their requisition and cigs spent. Nnnnnumbah three is an attractive option that I will catcall at even after Tents and Dwellings are all fancy and in-motion.


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CavemanJoe
 Saturday, August 08 2009 @ 11:58 PM UTC  
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While we're on the subject, one thing that I really don't like about Dwellings:

Having three different damn types.

All three different types will need different resources and costs, have different features, and at the very core, no matter how much you dick with the description, it's always going to be a Shack, Cottage or Mansion with fancy makeup on.

The way I see it, if a player wants to write a Museum, let 'em. Now, this is where the $size val comes into play, if we rewrite.

Tents will increase their $size via Glop. Dwellings will increase their $size via other resources. So, we're gonna end up with a system where all Dwellings start off as the equivalent of Shacks, and then increase in size with extra rooms and better materials, which will "unlock" more areas where players can change the descriptions. Having multiple different routes that a player can take (IE they can have a Healer or a Training room at 50 $size, but must get 200 $size before they can do both) will give some functional uniqueness to each place (as well as the descriptive uniqueness that you guys naturally provide ), and help alleviate the sense of a player's Barracks being just a Mansion with a Barracks sign. Smile


 
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CavemanJoe
 Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 12:00 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Zolotisty

Nnnnnumbah three is an attractive option that I will catcall at even after Tents and Dwellings are all fancy and in-motion.



But... but... but...
Numero Trois is Tents! It's just... tents without Tents, if you get my meaning.


 
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Zolotisty
 Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 12:05 AM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Zolotisty

Nnnnnumbah three is an attractive option that I will catcall at even after Tents and Dwellings are all fancy and in-motion.



But... but... but...
Numero Trois is Tents! It's just... tents without Tents, if you get my meaning.



Well, yes and no! NUMERO TROIS, as previously conceptualized, is a two day chatspace anywhere on the map, right? One that you can buy? If GERM wants to have a swimming pool in the mountains of CC404 for two days, that's better than labooooriously setting up a Tent there and locking someone to that space for all of time if the Tents aren't going to be mobile-mobile. And if they just want the space for a PARTY or an EVENT or WHAT HAVE YOU, then it's good there's no Tents involved.


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CavemanJoe
 Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 12:58 AM UTC  
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Yes, but code-wise:

1. Spawn a Something on the map.
(yup, did that with IItem Crates - only difference is that Tents will use their own database table, rather than a serialized modulesetting)
2. Ability for this Something to be spawned by a player.
3. Put a chat space inside this Something.
4. The Something goes away after x days, unless it is refreshed by Some Means.

If I make Tents, then #3 will make itself, if you get me.


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 01:08 AM UTC  
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Right, so why not forgo working on the quick fix, and instead just go ahead with the bigger portion?

I only speak for myself, but I'm willing to wait a while before everything comes back, rather than have some quick little fix.


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Stanlygirl
 Sunday, August 09 2009 @ 01:26 AM UTC  
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I agree with KK. I'd rather wait for the finished version.


 
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