Subject: Saved Days

Posted on: November 03 2008 @ 06:18 PM
By: Fodder+Kid

Content:

This might not be the best place for this post, but I'll stick it here anyway.

I work a full time job, teaching math to middle school delinquents, have 2 kids, and a wife. I have no problem kicking a little bit to Caveman Joe each month, but if it was possible to put something in the Hunter's Lodge so that I could save up more than 2 days at a time. Some of us just can't play over the weekend or holidays because kids need attention and love and daddy's energy, But boy o boy does this place make planning period a tad more enjoyable everyday.

Just a thought,

Fodder Kid



Replies:

Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 03 2008 @ 06:37 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Shouldn't be too difficult to do.

What would be a fair price per extra saved day slot, assuming that they were permanent?
Also, what would be a fair price per extra saved day slot, assuming that they lasted, say, a month?


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 03 2008 @ 07:05 PM
By: Fodder+Kid

Content:

Well that depends on how you want to go about it.

I personally would like to buy a monthly subscription to the game. It could part of that. Make it part of the whole package deal thing. You now get 4 saved days as opposed to 2.

However for now I would think that for 500 points you could get double the saved days for a week or 2. I have never really looked at your prices before for specific items. I bought some extra turns because I wanted to get to level 10 fast.

Yer call really Laughing Out Loud it's your Island Baby!

Fodder Kid


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 03 2008 @ 09:50 PM
By: Norah

Content:

Oh! This is a really fantastic idea and I'd be happy to spend the money to get these. I would think that 1000 would be good to get a permanent extra saved day slot. I don't know that I'd ever bother to get a temporary one - I tend to forget to renew those things and then get really irritated.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 01:25 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Might I suggest, in the interests of assuring Joe an income stream, that it should NOT be possible to buy a permanent increase in that number?

Yes, I know. I'd like to have it permanent, too. But then, what incentive would I have to keep on contributing? PayPal allows for regular payments, and they can be quite small. An increase in the Saved Day cap would be a desirable commodity. It's something that people might well be willing to pay, say, $2 - $6 a month for. A hundred or so people do that... it could start adding up to some real money for Joe, every month.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 01:51 AM
By: crashtestpilot

Content:

Agree with prior posts.
Saved days should be monthly, as should any other benefits from a regular subscription.
This is how we get Joe beyond the donor economy to the subscription economy/premium service offering.

At this point we should be looking at a $4.99 monthly package, and a $9.99 monthly package. A $24.99 monthly package would be possible once service gets more robust, perhaps for season 3.
Point is, we need to get the Islanders kicking in something, and it needs to be low and regular to start the habit of supporting Joe's fine work. Low monthly pricepoints are the way to go.

Now, let's flesh out the service offerings.

~Crash


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 03:04 AM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

I dunno, CTP. Strictly speaking, I'm not supposed to be using the LotGD core in a commercial capacity at all. If you do a search on dragonprime, you'll find lots of posts on the subject. Eric stepped in eventually and pretty well said "By all means make yourself some money, but don't take the piss." So I've got to be careful how far I take it, and I think that regular subscriptions for an upgraded account would be overstepping the line a tad.

He said to me that if I start making Łoadsamoney from it, then I'm to set up a non-profit company and pay myself a reasonable salary from it. I think I'm still a ways off that point, but with any luck I'll keep on getting closer.

Plus, if it's clear that donations are donations (IE entirely voluntary, non-refundable gifts) then I can still ban players who piss me off even if they've sent me money. Razz


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 03:47 AM
By: Icterid

Content:

I also think saved days should be temporary. It would be a pretty big advantage to have a permanent extra day. If we think about it in terms of extra jungle turns, I'm basically buying 10-20+ extra jungle turns (more if I've bought turns from multiple DKs) per extra day. That would translate to 500 - 1000+ DP (at the current going rate of 50 DP per 1 turn and ignoring the 10-turn cap).

I think I'd lean towards setting it for 500 DP, since the extra jungle fights are really just a one-shot use (even though the player would get the extra new-day bonuses). And it seems like it would have to be a fixed time period, rather than a set number of game days, unless there is a way to keep track of how many times the player used that extra saved day... or something.

Maybe it would be easier to have an option in the Hunter's Lodge to "replenish 1 saved day" for maybe 100 DP or so. That way, you can donate $5, and have 5 extra saved days that you can use whenever you have the time for it. That would avoid spending DP for a 2-week period and then not having enough time to use any of your extra days, and it would save the trouble of figuring out how to keep track of the extra-day usage.

I definitely like the idea of having more ways to spend DP, though. Provides more incentive for people to donate.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 04:10 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

So you don't call it a subscription. You call it a "pledge."

And you shouldn't have "packages," either. Besides sounding crassly commercial, packages are also boring. (Telephone companies offer monthly packages. You're better than a telephone company.) What you should have are juicy in-game rewards that you dangle in front of us as a lure to induce us to donate. Radio stations offer mugs and concert tickets during their pledge drives. The challenge is to come up with something you can offer that will be of real value, yet won't unbalance the game. A higher saved-day cap is ideal for this, because ultimately nobody gets more than 3 game days per 24 hours, but a higher cap offers convenience and flexibility.

Donors are pitching in to help defray the costs of running this game. Those costs include the cost of your time, which you could be spending on some day job that put food on your table and paid the rent, but instead you're spending it making this place wonderful. Regular small payments are much better for that than one-time larger payments, and you should structure your rewards to encourage them.

If you ban someone who's made a pledge, CMJ, all that happens is he/she retaliates by cancelling their payment in PayPal, so you won't get anything from them next month. I presume you can live with that.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 04:20 AM
By: Count+of+S-G

Content:

I think that the ability to purchase new days, for 1-5 hundred points would be a great idea. People who complain about individuals in the top of the HoF and being unable to get caught up, would have the option of donating to get caught up in exchange for for donating.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 04:25 AM
By: crashtestpilot

Content:

Okay, that was an education.
The point is, what Sessine said.
The fact of the matter is, 501c3's and publicly-traded corporations use different terminology to come up with the same result:

If you're supposed to be non-profit, then you have donor-levels.
If you're NOT supposed to be non-profit, then you have membership levels.

Same shite, different bucket, different label on said bucket.

I'm not trying to be crass (which comes naturally to me), but rather pointing out a fairly reasonable piece of realism.

It's all about the packaging, the price, and the benefits. How you label it is up to you.
Now, when you're all done being irritated with me for pointing this out, let's discuss donor levels.

I'm thinking silver donors pay 5.99/mo. Gold donors pay 9.99/mo.
Now let's festoon these donor levels with benefits so we can get some dosh in the door for Dan (DDD hereafter.)

Kinda kidding. Kinda serious.

All best,

~Crash


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 05:34 AM
By: Count+of+S-G

Content:

I think that it would be better to reward for donations of a certain amount. Like how it is for long time donators (eg if you've donated 5000 points you get the superuser thing) you could have benefits for if someone donated some amount in one shot, every time.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 05:36 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

And I'm thinking there should be an entry level, too: $3 a month. Doesn't sound like much, but 12 times 3 is 48 bucks a year. Some people on here are students, etc., with very tight budgets. Give them something.

Plus, I'm wondering if cafeteria-style wouldn't be better than bundled rewards. Maybe I don't care at all about naming my mount or weapon, but I travel a lot, or I only get to play once a week when my spouse is attending classes, and I'd really like to be able to save up a biggish pile of game days. Let people decide what's important enough to them to be willing to pay for.

Donor-levels could still play a part, as status symbols. There'd need to be some way to display the donor badge (you know, like those "I gave blood today" pins and stickers).


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 06:10 AM
By: Count+of+S-G

Content:

My suggestion was keep the points system, just have a bonus. All though it helps CMJ to have people recruited to his site. It helps him more to have a donation.

I was thinking to have in addition to the current system (although I believe that there should be some better donation rewards) that if you donated say 5 bucks in a sitting, you got a bonus.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 11:34 AM
By: Count+of+S-G

Content:

Also just occurred to me, but it would be nice if you could buy the new day from disgrace, maybe let you buy favor for 1 dp for 1 favor, or give access to the hunter's lodge and put in a option to buy new days.



Note: I'd have preferred not to have double posted, but the edit option had timed out. As the forum admin, you might want to change that option CMJ. There should be no real reason not to let people always edit their own posts.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 04 2008 @ 09:45 PM
By: Hairy+Mary

Content:

Have to say Crash test, if something's moving into the realms of urine extraction, then changing the name doesn't change that. As you say, same shite, different bucket.
Don't like to moan, because you've been coming up with some (actually, a huge amount) of great, insightful ideas, please keep going, but I suspect that CMJ owes respect to the DragonPrime guys, same as we owe respect to him.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 01:25 AM
By: crashtestpilot

Content:

Huh?
Urine extraction? I disrespected Dan somehow?
I missed something. Or somethings.

I do, however, completely get that Dan needs to keep his economic model within palatable confines, and that his codebase is, in fact, based on Green Dragon.

So, to be clear, I said nothing about urine extraction, ever.
And I was not trying to be rude to anyone. I was pointing out, or trying to anyway, that non-profit and for-profit organizations use similar tactics, but different labels.
Also, that how you package membership/donorship is largely a matter of what you call it to ensure you don't run afoul of the law, people's feelings, or the taxman.

But mostly, I was floating a trial balloon by naming a price or two, and seeing how people reacted, so as to better get a fix on what people were willing to pay.

Sorry if any of these intentions were unclear. I hope that sorts out where I was coming from.

All best,

~Crash


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 04:00 AM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

@Crash - I think he was talking about the possibility that Eric would think I was taking the piss, rather than about anything you said.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 05:09 AM
By: Mister+Rik

Content:

If I may interject a thought here ...

Rather than "Saved Days", what about a "Buy a New Day" button?

Nearly the same end result, but probably easier to implement. In fact, I believe there may already be a module or modules to do just that. Another LOGD server I played on for a while had something like that, and there were actually a few different ways to obtain the New Day.

Method 1) Donors (I'm not sure if there was a specific dollar amount attached) would see a link that they could click to obtain a New Day at any time. I'm sure there were limits on how many times per [real] day you could use it, and it was only available for a limited number of days, but I don't recall the specifics.

Method 2) Probably simpler than the first method. The Hunter's Lodge sold an item, some sort of jeweled amulet, for X number of Donator Points. Your character would then keep the amulet in a pocket, or wherever. At any time, you could take the amulet out of your pocket, hold it up to the sun, and the sunlight shining through the jewels created a magical effect that granted you a New Day. The amulet was a one-shot item that disappeared after you used it, but you could purchase as many as you could afford. All you'd need to decide is the price in Donor Points. Ideally, low enough to make the option appealing and worthwhile, but high enough to discourage abuse.

To make it fit better with II's theme, instead of a magical amulet it could be, oh, the Mister Rik (Brand) Complaint Generator (slogan: It Bitches! It Moans! It Crawls on its Belly Like a Reptile!):

"You press the button on the device, and it immediately begins to emit a stream of loud complaints about every topic under the sun (and some over it). Another contestant, irritated by the non-stop complaining, stalks over to you, shaking his fist in your face, and demands that you shut it off, or else he's going to "knock you into next week". You frantically and repeatedly press the button as the other contestant becomes more and more irritated, but the complaining won't stop! Finally, the other contestant has had enough. He hauls back and punches you in the face as hard as he can! However, you are able to dodge a bit and turn the punch into a glancing blow, and only enough force remains to knock you into tomorrow. Which is now today."

"It is a New Day!"


It seems to me that either of these would be easier to implement than fiddling with the number of Saved Days.

I would definitely like to see something like this implemented. Not so much to make up for days I'm unable to log in and play, but for those really aggravating times when I run out of turns/stamina at about the same time I make 14th level. There's just something that feels ... wrong ... about having to burn an entire Saved Day just to make that last level. I discovered on that other server that for some reason, burning a Purchased Day that way wasn't as painful.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 07:34 AM
By: Hairy+Mary

Content:

Crash Test. Really sorry if I offended you. Frown I wasn't trying to imply that you were taking the piss at all, out of CMJ or anyone else. I realise that you're floating trial balloons, and I think that's a good thing to do. If you don't put out ideas that aren't perfect, then we'll all miss out on a lot of your thinking. Which would be a great shame.
I was trying to say that I thought that particular idea wasn't so good, not that you shouldn't have mentioned it.
Sorry once again.

Hairy Mary


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 03:10 PM
By: crashtestpilot

Content:

To Hairy, et al.,

After 42 years on this planet, 8 years of a Bush presidency, and a horrible divorce 8 years ago, I think it's safe to say I'm pretty difficult to offend.
Also, unlike when I was, say, in my 20s, I have been thoroughly disabused of the notion that my latest brain bubble is THE BEST IDEA EVARS.

I really actually prefer conversations where many ideas come in, and efficient paths found between them that embrace many sources of input. Now, I DO like participating in the conversations, goading others to contribute more/better/other ideas, and stimulating conversations when I find little but silence.

Point is, I'm more than happy to be called out for a crap idea. I'll defend it, sure -- that's forensics. But that doesn't mean I'm married to my own notions.

So, no hard or even vaguely stung feelings on my end.
I was confused.

ANNNNNND, I think I've said everything I need to say about revenue models, at least for now.

On to my next topic, which I think will address the notion of event-based in-game locations, and Island wide special FX, ala the recent bannination event.

But that's for another thread. And another cup of Caveman-brand joe.
(Hey, there's something we could offer in the Improbable online store alongside T-Shirts, mousepads and thongs!)

All best,

~Crash


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 03:43 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

I think there may be a bit of a language difficulty, here.

"Taking the piss" is a British idiom meaning making fun of something or someone, teasing, joking around. It doesn't imply an intent to offend. Impudence, maybe, but nothing worse. In other words: LOLs. (Brits, correct me if I've missed a nuance -- I'm just a Canuck with a taste for British humour, which means I've run across the low sort.)

It's an idiom that doesn't cross the Atlantic well. In North America being "pissed" means being either angry or very drunk, someone who's "pissy" is annoyed and showing it, and "Piss off!" is an insult -- depending on subculture, it's extremely rude or only mildly so, but it's never friendly. I can't, off-hand, think of any North American idioms involving "piss" that aren't negative. So an American or Canadian encountering "taking the piss" for the first time is likely to assume that it means something like being quarrelsome, at least, and maybe nastier than that.

/linguistic clarification

Now... back to your regularly scheduled discussion of how to get Dan more income without stepping over the line into commercial exploitation.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 03:58 PM
By: CheshireCat

Content:

Though, if you're going to do the extra day off the failboat, I think that is should be counted as a restoration in the form of turns, just to make it more agreeable.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 04:24 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

@Sessine: It's actually a little more complex than that. The phrase "taking the piss" is very context-sensitive, and can refer to a wide variety of transgressions, from playful joshing to outright antagonism. It can be used to refer to someone taking something too far, someone being outright abusive, someone betraying a trust, or simply someone having a playful, friendly laugh. There are other situations in which it's appropriate, too.

It's not a phrase that translates easily to American. Smile


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 04:29 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

@Rik:
Your idea is a good one, but I'd like to address something else you said.

Actually, it'd be a lot easier to just modify the existing Saved Days module. Just swap the modulesetting that stores the maximum number of saved days for a modulepref instead, and then alter that modulepref depending on Lodge purchases. Easy.

Clarification:
A modulesetting is an admin-settable variable which affects all players globally (for example, the payout percentage on the one-armed bandit in the Prancing Spiderkitty).
A modulepref is a variable assigned to a player, stored in the moduleprefs table and cross-referenced to the name of the module (for example, the number of Bang grenades that you currently have on you).


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 05:03 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

(*ahhh!* -- memo to self: don't try to explain Brits to Yanks or vice versa. Canadians always make this mistake. We sort of understand both. But not as much as we think we do.)

About the Saved Days module: For future flexibility, I think you might want to throw in two moduleprefs. One would be the automatic maximum saved days cap, which would be pretty easy to change depending on Lodge purchases.

The other would be a Saved Days Bank. Using an individually purchased Saved Day would be a different action from using a New Day: it would be more like a non-human using a grenade: not automatically replenished, each would be a one-time event, but you could build up a reserve if you thought you might need them.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 05:21 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Well, what sort of functionality are we suggesting, here?

Scenario 1:
For a small amount of points (say, 50 or 100), player temporarily expands their maximum allowance of Saved Days. Let's say it lasts for a month. Player can now store up to three saved days. Player can spend more to further increase their maximum allowance. This could get tricky with keeping track of how old each slot is, but will not upset game balance - players still get to play just as many days as their non-paying comrades and no more, however they have the flexibility to decide when to use those days.

Scenario 1a:
Same as above, but effects are permanent and the option is more expensive.

Scenario 2:
Days purchased in the Hunter's Lodge are treated as one-off consumable items. Their information is stored separately to the information regarding the standard amount of saved days. For example, a player might have two "natural" days saved up, and two purchased days. Hitting the New Day button depletes the Natural days first, so after the player has played three days' worth of extended play, they have no natural saved days left, and one purchased day. If they log off and don't log back in for a real day, then their store of natural saved days is replenished to full, and they still have their purchased saved day. This will have to be a little more expensive than other options, as it gives the player a real advantage in gameplay, not just extra flexibility.

Of course, it's also possible to do all of the above in a single new module. Pricing suggestions for all options are encouraged.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 06 2008 @ 07:27 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

I was thinking, both scenarios 1 and 2.

But not 1a. Though as a player I'd love to to be able to increase that cap permanently, if you sell it as a permanent privilege, it will remove the incentive to sign up for small regular donations. My advice is, don't do it.

Scenario 2 should be expensive enough that players will need to think twice and three times before using one. Rare and valuable. Emergencies only. You already sell advantages in gameplay in the form of cigarettes and reqs for Donator Points. If you're worried about game balance, you could maybe place a (higher) cap on the number of consumable days a player can purchase, but that might be overcomplicating things. I think price alone could keep this from getting out of hand.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 08 2008 @ 12:13 AM
By: Count+of+S-G

Content:

Well, I think that 150 dp makes for a good amount to expand your saved days by one for a month.

I think that 250 dp makes for a good price for a new day. I think that it should be an option to purchase it in the failboat, or that you could buy favor for 1dp a favor, though that might be a bit too cheap.

I have some other things I'd like to see in the Hunter's Lodge, but I'll make a new thread for them.


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 08 2008 @ 01:35 AM
By: Fodder+Kid

Content:

I like the first option. That's what my non-coding brain was trying to say when I came up with this post. I'd like to be able to pay for the ability to play here as much as someone who DOESN'T have 1 wife, 2 daughters, 3 poodles, 1 teaching job, and 2 part time jobs.

The only REMOTELY POSSIBLE way is for me to kick the game some cash, and play the HELL out of the game when all the ladies in my life are asleep Laughing Out Loud

Fodder Kid


Re: Saved Days

Posted on: November 08 2008 @ 07:07 AM
By: Mister+Rik

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe

@Rik:
Your idea is a good one, but I'd like to address something else you said.

Actually, it'd be a lot easier to just modify the existing Saved Days module. Just swap the modulesetting that stores the maximum number of saved days for a modulepref instead, and then alter that modulepref depending on Lodge purchases. Easy.


Ah, okay. I should probably mention that when I use words like "easier" in connection with coding, I'm basically talking out of my ass Wink I was thinking from the outside looking in, and assuming that just plugging in a pre-existing module would be easier than rewriting the Saved Days code. But yeah, if it's just a matter of a pref setting, then never mind Smile

Anyway, I'm in almost in the same boat as Fodder Kid. No wife & kids, but a bizarre and unpredictable work schedule with some ridiculously long hours (I'm in the convention/catering business). As we head into our busy season I'll be looking a 14- to 16-hour shifts, and sometimes 6-7 days a week. Needless to say, I won't be on every single day like I have been! So when a day off rolls around, it would be nice to plant my ass in front of my computer, relax, and play a little catch-up. So I'm most certainly in favor of this idea.


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