From the Places thread:
IMO, Trains would benefit from some downtime to reconsider their impact on the Island -- even their current iteration seems unbalanced to me, and they're a major contributor to how we got to a state of imbalance in the first place. Players (and power players especially) have been very spoiled.
Re. point the first: Beyond predators, perhaps there can be a system of degradation and decay -- after ten or fifteen game days, say, a card could crumble to papery bits and be gone and away from your hand. It'd encourage people to trade more actively.
Re. point the second: One of my concerns with place-specific playing card drops has always been the favoritism inherent in the system and exponential difficulty of rewriting (or indeed, adding) place-specific flavour text as you pick up cards. I really like that it's not a generic 'you found a card!' message when you're wandering through a given Dwelling, but I think if the system is to encourage people to explore Dwellings generally rather than hit a specific handful as a part of a daily routine, there should be a generic message and a chance to find one in any Dwelling.
Also! Some of us don't use Trains not because we don't know to but because we prefer walking. I grind my Travel scores because I like grinding my Travel scores.
To introduce some new things I have thought about re. Trains:
- They are awfully consistent, and Improbable only in the fact that they are always running and always take you to the destination you intended. If an Outpost is under siege for example, why would a Train be running there? Why isn't the Island shifting tracks around? Why is there always a Train in the station whenever I want one to be there? How many engines are on the line, really, if there's one there for everyone all the time?
- For something working in a war zone on a dead-broke Island, they are awfully fancy, privileged, and well-maintained -- which on one hand, is part of the nostalgic allure of an old-school train.. and on the other, seems very inconsistent with our world's setting, era, and theme. Pretty things on the Island tend to be organically produced and alive, like the Common Ground. Pretty because nature and the Drive conspired to make it, not someone else. Everything else, while it can be very handsome, should be coming from scrapped parts -- because that's all anyone's got to work with. Subways and their attendant ambiance, in particular the NYC subway system, seem to me to be more consistent with what might be on the Island.
- I had more thoughts but they've escaped me. I'll come back.
I agree with Sussine, and mostly agree with Zolotisty here.
I'll disagree with the last point though.
Is the train system man made as opposed to Improbable? The Drive has produced plenty of other mechanical objects, I'm not sure if kittybikes are Improbably generated or the result of late twenty first century technology, but they're certainly pretty, and also at least in part mechanical. For definitely Improbable, definitely mechanical objects, what about robots, or quite a few of the things that you meet in the jungle? The Perpetual Motion Whotsit for example.
But even if the trains are man made, then perhaps they're a relic from before the good Doktor created The Drive. They could still be very pretty and elegant, although they might break down occasionally. This of course ties neatly in with Z's first new point.
Now my new point.
One perspective to consider trains from is the point of view of game play elements.
-Effects on building dwellings.
For people who don't build their homes up in the north east corner of the Island or on top of an outpost, it makes transportation of stone easier. Outposts are important because we can use one-shot teleports to get there.
Even the mansions which is just two squares of jungle away from P.Ville. The best backpack can carry four stones. If I overload it and carry the twenty stones that I need for one extension, it takes about 6%. Not too much, certainly. Now consider the south west corner of the Island. The Jackalope for example. Getting stone there from NewHome takes some doing. So first class tickets that can take you straight to your dwelling are very useful. To the point where it changes things quite dramatically.
Any square is as good as any other square for building as far as materials are concerned, which isn't the way that the system was set up. Whether this is good or bad I'm not sure, but it's a very definite effect. Having a limit on the weight that the train will let on board? Or use multiple tickets for overloading or something might be an idea?
-Effect on the main game play.
Rather less sure about this one, not being much of a game player myself. Do some people start a day with a train ticket, visiting each outpost, and maximizing on what they eat/drink? Perhaps going round again when various buffs run out? All that needs only one ticket, but it would take a lot of one-shots.
I thought that it was this sort of thing that Z was refering to in the original post as quoted by Sussine from the other thread. I really don't know much about this, trains probably affect game play in other ways as well, about which I've got no idea.
What about role play on the train? At first sight, it should be a great role play space, but I've hardly ever seen it used for much. There was that big day when me (The Skronkys), Miss Helabore, and Calliaphone all got stuck in and did something. Ah, fond memories. But apart from that, not much. I should admit though, that I'm not sure that I've even been on the train in the last six months, so maybe that's the main locus of scene-centre'd role play today for all I know. Making it hard/expensive/however you want to term it to get on the train won't encourage anything. Maybe the comms tent has a speaker on the train?
Some random thoughts spinning off from what's been posted so far. Apologies if it's all tosh:
Cards are obviously way too easy to come by at the moment and Jokers (unless I've just been lucky) are easy to come by too. Normal rail passes are irrelevant. First class passes are abundant.
So (all with question marks):
A set number of cards available in any dwelling per game day. Once x number of cards have been found in that day. That's all folks.
If cards are harder to come by they won't decay but rail passes will (expiry date). Adds value to rail passes and encourages planning.
Gifting cards stays free (encouraging trading) - why not gifting rail passes (for 1 or 2 SP)
More random diverts (i.e. Bingo Hall, Abandoned Waystation) but you also lose your pass (oh wait, devastating if your pack's full of rocks or wood, hmm, keep an OST handy.)
TMBs on a train could steal a card now and again.
Hell if I know how you balance this stuff. An expiry date on passes and/or cards might help i.e. if hoarding cards is till too easy the expiry date could be shortened and vice versa.
The randomness off stumbling over a card in the jungle is, IMO, perfect. It happens rarely enough to be special.
On Z's note about the trains themselves. I agree they are very predictable. Perhaps there could be a timetable of sorts or the stationmaster can tell you "Oh the train is just leaving Pleasantville, but won't be stopping in Cyber City as it's under attack so it should be here in about...." Might encourage RP in the stations while folks are waiting for their train?
It's not easy is it? Like Z I had some other thoughts that have run off and hidden somewhere.....
EDIT: Saw Hairy Mary's post after I'd posted. I see the trains as a leftover from bygone days. Restored and brought back to life. I think there is only one engine that improbably is at every station simultaneously.
I love the idea of the train breaking down now and again but can't imagine how this would work and what consequences this would have.
I wasn't here (or can't remember a time) when there were no trains so can only imagine how slow building dwellings must have been - unless you had a lot of help from friends.
I still travel on foot (ok well scrambler then) quite a lot and to me the train serves three main purposes. Gathering building materials, doing higher rank DKs while questing and searching for the Drive. Only one of these really needs a First Class Pass.
Rambling again. Bye.
If you're going to use a thief system to curb high card yields, at least make it seem like less of a punishment. You could turn it into a train-only monster encounter (name it the Bounding Bully or Bandit, maybe have both as different encounters) and have them steal cards from losing contestants. Dunno how you'll do the power levels (might be good if it's stronger if the player has more cards than the foe currently holds and weaker if the player has less than them). Make it so winning contestants can instead gain a fraction of the cards from the beaten thief, kind of like the Raven Inn jackpots.
Heck, if you make both into AI bots and have them wander Dwellings of the island, that could even /compliment/ the current system if you don't make them too hard to track and chase down.
My biggest concern about passes and trains being reworked is the huge impact on builders, as others have already brought up. Getting enough stone to build a remote dwelling, without the abilities of a first-class rail pass, is a long and stupid process, and if the ability is removed, then I guess say goodbye to any dwellings that are at all distant from the main outposts. That's not something I want to see happen. I know one may argue that perhaps remote dwellings are supposed to be tougher to build, but you just know that that philosophy simply won't translate to more effort by the players. They simply won't bother.
Maybe saying so reflects poorly on me, but I know people. Especially internet people.
As for making rail passes too hard to come by, well, quote:
I mean the thought that goes "But I might need it later" the niggling little doubt that prevents you from using all your most powerful insurance policies in case there's some kind of no-claims bonus at the end it all. So we have scenarios where you're sitting on a nuclear stockpile to shame North Korea and are throwing peas at a giant robot crab on the off-chance that there might be a bigger giant robot crab at the end of it all.
Apologies in advance for any typos or autocorrects, I'm posting quickly from my phone.
Re. relics of bygone days: Established train systems of yore on a jungley Island? I dunno, gang! The Island's very small, remember -- even if it had been inhabited in the Days Of Yore, it doesn't strike me as sensical to run and maintain tracks in such a small space when you could just as easily maintain a few truck routes and truck or hike between spots.
Re. building being made inconvenient: This is unbalanced, too; building Dwellings was never meant to be something you could easily accomplish on your own. The system was meant to encourage you to band together with friends -- indeed, it was supposed to make it necessary to get you to have help to complete Dwellings, and buildings were never supposed to go up very quickly. In S3 we will likely see very few dwellings distant from Outposts anyway, as I understand the most recent conceptualization of the S3 map system.
Disagree about 'no more distant-from-outpost dwellings', there were distant dwellings before trains were implemented.
ETA: 1322?! CHRIST MATTHEW
ETA2: Gifting passes seems good route to abuse and hoarding, to me.
- They are awfully consistent, and Improbable only in the fact that they are always running and always take you to the destination you intended. If an Outpost is under siege for example, why would a Train be running there? Why isn't the Island shifting tracks around? Why is there always a Train in the station whenever I want one to be there? How many engines are on the line, really, if there's one there for everyone all the time?
Re. relics of bygone days: Established train systems of yore on a jungley Island? I dunno, gang! The Island's very small, remember -- even if it had been inhabited in the Days Of Yore, it doesn't strike me as sensical to run and maintain tracks in such a small space when you could just as easily maintain a few truck routes and truck or hike between spots.
Mannn. I wish that it wasn't read as 'annoying' and instead read as 'more interesting.' Sometimes you can't get what you want WHEN YOU WANT IT, that is life -- and in this case, it would be a consequence of otherwise being transported instantaneously to your desired location for free. ..which is bone bastard boring, really. There's nothing to strategize about with Trains after you've collected your pass; you know they will magically work whenever you want them to -- and really, one doesn't have to think very hard about collecting cards, either. It is a free, slow-release One-Shot Teleporter with a chatroom people hustle through to get to their next location.
The Travel Agency in Season 1 had a consequence for instantaneous transportation! You paid, and then you were strapped into a great bloody fucking catapult and launched across the Island by a team of skiving Midgets. Then you hit the ground. Very hard. Depending on whether you'd paid for a first class ticket, you lost some of your HP or A LOT of your HP, and you had to go heal your sorry arse. There was some strategy there -- not a lot, but some -- which ticket you were going to purchase on basis of how much HP you already had and on basis of how much money you had on hand, and whether you could afford to do it or not.
This got taken out cos CMJ put in OSTs, I think, but d'you see what I'm saying? Losing health AND money and probably more money to heal yourself when you land -- annoying, to some people! But also something you have to THINK about, and the game does offer you other ways of getting around.
ETA: Agreed that playing cards -> train pass = ??? for me, Matthew, but that's relatively trivial and will likely not be changed because of the law of conservation of pretty resources. 
Ah, apologies; I thought you meant you wanted a system where the trains worked like real trains, where you had to get at the station at a certain moment and then get off at a certain moment again to get to the place you want, as the train arrived at those places in a circuit. I don't really even know how to work the code the Island uses and even to me that sounds like a real bastard to do. That kind of thing might work in a more graphical game, like World of Warcraft or something, but in a text based game, I dunno.
I guess I'm in the camp where I think the train and passes themselves should be reliable, definite things, but the method of obtaining said passes shouldn't be.
As you say, though, S3 may come along and make the idea of trains completely obsolete so who knows really! As an aside, I am super stoked for S3 whenever that's gonna show up.
edit: oh and also
Re. building being made inconvenient: This is unbalanced, too; building Dwellings was never meant to be something you could easily accomplish on your own.
As far as the feel of the trains goes, I think we should consider what would make the most enjoyable gaming experience first, and then come up with a justification afterwards.
I rather like the slightly faded opulent feel to it myself.
Plenty of cities have underground trains, how big is the Island? I'm not entirely sure, but at least as big as say a quarter the size of London? London has about 200 'underground' stations (slightly over half of which is actually overground) and about the same again in (mostly small local) train stations. It still feels the need for a large bus service. The Island might have been a lot smaller, with a lot smaller population, but I think that eight stations isn't too much, I tend to think of it as at least 10 miles top to bottom say. The Bluebell railway in Sussex runs for a grand total of nine miles and originally had eight stations.
Relic of a bygone age or improbably generated or a mixture of both, I wouldn't have any problems with that. But that's just my opinion.
Now. More improbably type events to make travelling more of a risk. Yes, I'm fully with Z on that. So, what could they be?
Bear in mind that the availability of tickets is going to drop sharply.
At the moment, there's a very small chance of ending up in the Bingo Hall (just one step from getting back on at Grand Central) or the Abandoned Waystation (miles from anywhere). The chances of that happening could be increased a bit maybe? Perhaps some more locations used for the same purpose?
There's also the dart playing midgets who do so little damage that only somebody on level one who's never had any HP increases even really notices them.
And Elias with his lucky dip. He's great, but doesn't add any risk to the situation.
What else could there be? The train won't go to a breached outpost, or perhaps one that's close to being breached (where the banks shut say). Yes, I like that, I can't think of anything else though. Any specific ideas anybody?
Matthew. 1322??? 
I was going to tell you how many passes I could get as an illustration of how there's too many floating out there, but now I feel positively poverty stricken, so I won't embarrass myself. Also, where was that quote from? I recognise what it's saying all to well.
Somebody said that they wouldn't want to randomly loose tickets, it's nice to have a spare one saved up. Possibly a system where it will never take your last one, a bit like twisting your ankle on the pinatra?
What else could there be? The train won't go to a breached outpost, or perhaps one that's close to being breached (where the banks shut say).
Also, where was that quote from? I recognise what it's saying all to well.
Well I think the problem lies with the way joker cards work.
Once you got a joker you can keep collecting cards indefinitely.
How would this be as suggestion:
A joker will no longer give you the ability to collect an unlimited number of cards, but it also won't count for your 5 card limit?
I think this will have the following effects:
The hands stay smaller, less first class passes
Collecting becomes harder, but not that much changes for those whom occasionally look for cards.
Okay. I am no vet like you folks, I only have 12 first class passes in store. I do hoard them up, I'll admit. Traveling by foot is no problem to me, but I save them up for building, usually not of my own.
This being said, I'm one of the more casual savers. Perhaps making them more random or less likely to be found would appeal to me, personally. But making the cards turn into mush or tear apart after a certain number of days would only encourage folks to spend a lot more time searching for them before their almost-full hand disappears or throw up their hands and resort to OSTs.
Keep 'em reliable, just undo the card-spawn sites and perhaps make them randomly attributed to any dwelling's room at a very, very low rate. Or page-prizes, but I feel that would have to be more work and might provoke favoritism of which pages could provide cards according to story or how well-written it is.
I, personally, thought cards were rewards for good dwellings, and I think that's a good situation. It's like a sort of cosmic pat on the back for putting marvelous amounts of effort into creating a space.
As a frequent train-rider with a keen interest in how this develops, I'll try to organize my random thoughts on the matter and see if that helps (or hinders) any... If I repeat what anyone's already said, feel free to accept it as just me agreeing with you. There have been about five posts since I started writing this. (Probably a hint for me that it's too long, eh? 
)
These ideas are all very interesting -- keep them coming!
A few things that aren't going to happen:
- You will never find a card in a room that's boring or badly written.
- For technical reasons, I can't track the age of a particular card or pass. There'll be no cards crumbling, or passes expiring. This is not to guarantee that odd things won't occasionally happen inside an overloaded card case.
- The card/pass predators won't take every last one of a player's cards or passes. They'll miss something in a secret pocket, drop a few while fleeing, that sort of thing, and they won't bother people who have only a small number. People who have built up enormous collections aren't going to keep them, sorry, because that's gotten way out of balance, and long ago stopped being fun... but I will try to make the process of losing that collection entertaining.
Current situation:
You can collect a card a day and using a first class costs you about a card a day.
How about a higher conversion rate for cards to passes? Instead of two Ace of Spades, you need three Ace of Spades for a first class?
New situation:
You can collect a card a day, using a first class costs you about 2 cards a day.
So what about something like, for each player, at new day there are say twenty rooms chosen randomly out of a grand list of all possible rooms that have been approved for card yielding purposes. These are where cards might be found. A player won't ever find more then the current normal amount, but those are places where they'll find a card if they go there, and if they haven't yet filled their daily quota. The twenty is just a number plucked out of the air, make it a small proportion of the total number of rooms on the list.
Maybe weight various rooms so that cards are more likely to appear far away from outposts rather than right next to them, or better, pick which squares they may appear on, and then which room in which dwelling on that square, otherwise the numbers may get distorted simply because there are more dwellings close to outposts. This would also make it easier to ensure that no one square gets more than one card a day (says the man who knows sweet Fanny Adams about programing.) This way, you could happily include every room in the Bingo Hall if you so wanted.
Also, at the moment, you can often pick up two cards a day. Occasionally more, occasionally none at all. Since there are to my knowledge at least two dwellings right next to outposts with two card pick ups each in them, this by itself makes card collecting too easy. Maybe change this so that you usually find only one, and occasionally two or none.
Probably, however you make card collecting, in time people will work it out, work out a way that works for them, and turn it into a routine. This seems to me to be pretty much inevitable.
As Dizzy said, finding a card drop off in your own dwelling is pretty cool. When Unfairlady and I found one in the Mansions we were both dead chuffed.
I'd like to hear some feedback about what would be an ideal range that would make a rail pass really worth something.
I'd like to hear some feedback about what would be an ideal range that would make a rail pass really worth something.
From someone who's been trying to figure out what trains even ARE... I've got no idea what they, no idea what they are used for, and no idea how to figure it out. Is it something that's only for characters with more drive kills, or what? Is it just a cheaper/quicker way to get between locations than walking/one-shot-teleporters?
At the very least, how could I find out more about them?
- For technical reasons, I can't track the age of a particular card or pass. There'll be no cards crumbling, or passes expiring. This is not to guarantee that odd things won't occasionally happen inside an overloaded card case.
- The card/pass predators won't take every last one of a player's cards or passes. They'll miss something in a secret pocket, drop a few while fleeing, that sort of thing, and they won't bother people who have only a small number. People who have built up enormous collections aren't going to keep them, sorry, because that's gotten way out of balance, and long ago stopped being fun... but I will try to make the process of losing that collection entertaining.
From someone who's been trying to figure out what trains even ARE... I've got no idea what they, no idea what they are used for, and no idea how to figure it out. Is it something that's only for characters with more drive kills, or what? Is it just a cheaper/quicker way to get between locations than walking/one-shot-teleporters?
At the very least, how could I find out more about them?
Watching a number get bigger by doing something easy every day is... well, whenever that's possible in a game, some people will feel obliged to do it. (**raises hand**)
Sessine, thanks for your as always clear, helpful and patient clarification of the issues.
It does seem to boil down to your succinct observation:
Sadly, gang, a Medal would be non-trivial to implement -- there's art for over 200, and you've not seen them implemented in the game because the Medals system, too, needs to be rewritten. Implementation for the Emily Bundle medal was a bit different. So while it's a nice idea... it's a nice idea that's not happening any time soon.
Sadly, gang, a Medal would be non-trivial to implement -- there's art for over 200, and you've not seen them implemented in the game because the Medals system, too, needs to be rewritten. Implementation for the Emily Bundle medal was a bit different. So while it's a nice idea... it's a nice idea that's not happening any time soon.
Here's something that can change right this second, places or no: Can Corporal Punishment tell rookies about the trains?
Okay, so I think I understand what it is now. I still don't really get it though. It sounds like a whole lot of work to save a bit of money on teleporters or a few rounds of combat from walking. I guess it... might be useful if you're on a high rank or something?
Okay, so I think I understand what it is now. I still don't really get it though. It sounds like a whole lot of work to save a bit of money on teleporters or a few rounds of combat from walking. I guess it... might be useful if you're on a high rank or something?
Okay, so I think I understand what it is now. I still don't really get it though. It sounds like a whole lot of work to save a bit of money on teleporters or a few rounds of combat from walking. I guess it... might be useful if you're on a high rank or something?
Truthfully, the only time I use my passes are for Building and Titan hunting, otherwise they are useless for me as travel doesn't take all that much stamina, and I rarely use all my chronos anyway. For that matter, right now I can't effectively titan hunt because I'd have to use pretty much all my stamina to get the buffs I prefer before hitting one, and OST's are rather expensive when starting out at level 1. As for the decay of passes, well, that is a good idea in my opinion, and expanding where people can get them also is a good one. I've always found it a bit.. well, odd, that pretty much all the places that one can get cards... belong to one particular clan's members. Thats always sat a bit wrong with me, especially as I've not seen any way to suggest buildings for a card drop or something. Perhaps the idea would be to have a list of locations, but not have them spawn a card every day, that way, even once people figure out all the current locations, they still have to search for a card?
I dunno if I've made any sense, but theres 2 cents worth.
I do look forward to the return of the trains though. I'm missing my titan hunting and without them.. well, I think I'd need 20 more dk's to be effective at it again.
As a particular clan leader, Raidur, that detail always troubled me too.
Truthfully, the only time I use my passes are for Building and Titan hunting, otherwise they are useless for me as travel doesn't take all that much stamina, and I rarely use all my chronos anyway. For that matter, right now I can't effectively titan hunt because I'd have to use pretty much all my stamina to get the buffs I prefer before hitting one, and OST's are rather expensive when starting out at level 1. As for the decay of passes, well, that is a good idea in my opinion, and expanding where people can get them also is a good one. I've always found it a bit.. well, odd, that pretty much all the places that one can get cards... belong to one particular clan's members. Thats always sat a bit wrong with me, especially as I've not seen any way to suggest buildings for a card drop or something. Perhaps the idea would be to have a list of locations, but not have them spawn a card every day, that way, even once people figure out all the current locations, they still have to search for a card?
I dunno if I've made any sense, but theres 2 cents worth.
I do look forward to the return of the trains though. I'm missing my titan hunting and without them.. well, I think I'd need 20 more dk's to be effective at it again.
Raidur, because of the way the trains hooked into the old dwellings code using the Labs interface, I was forced to hard-code the locations. I had no option to add new locations after submitting the modules to CMJ. Since I was writing the code, I tromped the map looking at everything, and I picked the card drops. I picked them to be, "See, look at this here! Isn't this a funny / scary / beautiful / well-written dwelling?" from the dwellings that existed at the time I was writing. I didn't put any in places that seemed to be private residences, or that were sometimes locked. Many wonderful creations that came along later had to go ignored because I had no way to update the code to include them.
I'm glad you found the trains useful. They'll be gone for a while. When they come back, they'll be different.
Trains, for me, helped a lot with fighting and titans, as Dave said, but, more importantly, they helped with RP. Without trains, I cannot be as involved in the community as I'd like while still doing gameplay at a level that keeps it at least a little interesting. I'm a bit apprehensive of how trains are going to come back. For now, I've nerfed the DK ranks I'm doing, but I don't want to stay like that. If I can't have a steady, reliable, daily supply of rail passes, what do I choose? Do I cut out RP, or quit gameplay? I'm not going to stick to R5's, that's pointless, but what's the point of playing at all if I'm not in the community as well?
tl;dr: Please don't cut out the huge stacks of rail passes, or, if you do, make passes easy as hell to get.
Maybe, to address Matthew's concern of a newbie running around with stone and getting dropped off in the ocean by random chance...the first {1-3} time{s} you take a train in a gameday, you're much more likely to get where you're going, as opposed to taking the train all over creation, in which case the conductor might get sick of you and either demand a new rail pass or kick you off the train mid-travel somewhere. That way there's still the stability of having the trains go where you need them to, but if you start abusing them every gameday you used a pass (like I used to, tbh) then there's Consequences...
Maybe, to address Matthew's concern of a newbie running around with stone and getting dropped off in the ocean by random chance...the first {1-3} time{s} you take a train in a gameday, you're much more likely to get where you're going, as opposed to taking the train all over creation, in which case the conductor might get sick of you and either demand a new rail pass or kick you off the train mid-travel somewhere. That way there's still the stability of having the trains go where you need them to, but if you start abusing them every gameday you used a pass (like I used to, tbh) then there's Consequences...
Perhaps, but one-shots are expensive and it's a bit unreasonable to expect newer players in particular to carry one whenever they want to do any building.
And there's nothing stopping it from happening twice in a row. Happened to me, once. Granted I wasn't carrying building materials then... but it's possible to still be unlucky.
Perhaps, but one-shots are expensive and it's a bit unreasonable to expect newer players in particular to carry one whenever they want to do any building.
And there's nothing stopping it from happening twice in a row. Happened to me, once. Granted I wasn't carrying building materials then... but it's possible to still be unlucky.
Perhaps, but one-shots are expensive and it's a bit unreasonable to expect newer players in particular to carry one whenever they want to do any building.
And there's nothing stopping it from happening twice in a row. Happened to me, once. Granted I wasn't carrying building materials then... but it's possible to still be unlucky.
Perhaps, but one-shots are expensive and it's a bit unreasonable to expect newer players in particular to carry one whenever they want to do any building.
And there's nothing stopping it from happening twice in a row. Happened to me, once. Granted I wasn't carrying building materials then... but it's possible to still be unlucky.
How much real-world money have you spent expressly to gather Charm?
Perhaps, but one-shots are expensive and it's a bit unreasonable to expect newer players in particular to carry one whenever they want to do any building.
And there's nothing stopping it from happening twice in a row. Happened to me, once. Granted I wasn't carrying building materials then... but it's possible to still be unlucky.
I'm resurrecting this thread in order to post a response to a thread that I don't want to derail (haha) too severely.
I have a list of suggestions for you, Sessine, though I don't know how far along you are and if it's too late to implement some things.
If the new system is still going to use the cards,
Make a slew of combinations that all yield different rewards.
The "duplicates-meaning-more" thing was very straightforward, and as a result a bit unexciting. It was also rather one-dimensional. If you used Poker rules among others, you might get people holding out for different combinations for a better gain than what their hand will currently get. Promote making the player choose to dump a card so their hand doesn't get used up while they wait for a better card.
Increment Rail Pass Power, not Rail Pass Amount
Being able to amass loads of passes in a single hand means that clever system gamers might have the ability to trivialize travel altogether. Trains should be a treat, not a typical t'ing. (Hey, I tried to assonate and then alliterate.) The "better combinations" should lead to more powerful passes. Here's an example setup I decided to create:
For 5 unrelated cards, the next day you wake up with randomly: 20 req, a burned pass (useless), a cig, an Improbability Bomb, or maybe a -Basic Pass- which gets you 1 use.
If your cards add up to a multiple of 21, you get 2100 req, unless a higher combination is also satisfied. I'm pretty sure we don't have face cards, so there shouldn't be too much confusion.
Getting a Pair (suit doesn't matter) in your hand of 5 should get you a -Basic Pass-, guaranteed.
Two Pair gets you a =Double Pass=, which is good for 2 uses within one day. It's main usage is for round trips, though you could technically hit a third city instead.
Three of a Kind gets you a ≡First Class Pass≡, which does the old "pick any square" thing, but it's limited to the one usage.
Straight will get you 20 cigs(!). If we do the math, a Straight is hard to randomly get (though we do have 5 suits which changes the standard chances), but players who manage to get 3 in succession might hold out for the fourth and fifth and continually dump the last card in the hand, depending if they want cigs more than easy travel for one day.
Flush gives you an ☼All-Day Pass☼. That's what we used to think of as a Basic Pass. This is actually harder to get than standard decks of cards--since if our cards don't change from their old setup, I think we have 10 of each suit but 5 suits (plus a joker).
Hawking Flush (made up the name) - you need 1 of every suit, since we have 5 suits. That's an easy 5/5 * 4/5 * 3/5 * 2/5 * 1/5 chance, or a 3.8% chance. If you end the day with a Hawking Flush and don't notice, you'll take half of Max HP damage at the start of the day. So in other words, you DON'T want this.
Straight Flush gives you «Elite Pass» which is what our old First Class passes were. All day, any square.
Since we have no Royal Flush, 5 Jokers should be 500 cigs. Yep. Straight up. 5 jokers. 1/51 ^ 5. GOOD LUCK LOL
There could be all sorts of combinations, but that wasn't this bullet point. My point is the successive power of better combinations, not more passes. More passes can trivialize it all.
Acquiring Should Be Random or Involved
The last way it was set up, every room that could generate a card did generate a card. That created a routine. We've pretty much settled on the whole "routines suck" thing. The easy fix that would be similar to the past would be that almost any room could generate a card, but only a few would per day. People would communicate to one another when the find the place to go get it, and that would get people moving to check out dwellings. I know that last time, the descriptions were tailored to every dwelling, but since that would be crazily out of hand with more and more dwellings since you'd have to write them all, we can forego them--a small price to pay for a better mechanic.
Tricky: Losing Cards?
If what I say about all sorts of different combinations existing and having the player pick and choose when to discard one in hopes of a different one goes through, the chance to randomly lose one of your cards will make it all very unfun, since it's an effort in futility to try to get that last card to complete a Straight for those 20 cigs.
However, if what I suggest about so many combinations doesn't actually have appropriate rewards scaled to the effort of getting those combinations, and players don't care about which cards they have most of the time, the ability to lose cards might bring about an awareness to how card choice matters.
This is a tricky thing to handle properly, though, so maybe it's better to leave out.
If I may still pipe up as well?
Please don't:
remove the train theme
It makes quite enough sense ("BEWARE OF TIME DISTORTIONS"), and adds heavily to the sort of underlying running theme of class that we Yanks love so very much about...well, everyhting British.
Plus it makes for a truly nifty excuse to randomly dump folks in the Abandoned Waystation (which is still so very awesome.*)
remove the playing cards
As above, only excluding the Abandoned Waystation, and including that it's so wondefully simple a game mechanic to tie in to any Joker stories you write.
make the cards degrade
That would be pretty damn annoying. If you feel that degradation is needed, make passes degrade instead? I feel like that'd make more sense.
Please do:
Make unique-to-the-train threats
I always kind of dreaded and liked running into the Midgets on the train, and summarily losing HP to a dart in Harris' head, or having req stolen.
Mayhap have those encounters (or similar ones) provoke fights that we can win, or lose, that even have a consequence of say, taking a memento from us? And we'd have to win the fight to get our req back, and have to explore the train to find our memento again? (i.e., Places programming: take memento, give memento, comand: partial match: /LOOK, etc.)
I know that last encounter suggestion isn't likely to be anything feasible as it is, but i figured I'd offer anyway, in the name of brainstorming.
Make a Something Improbable! random event that steals playing cards, and/or passes.
Say, the old man? He ALREADY steals enough of my friggin' cigs and stamina! (shakes fist)
Shoot, add card granting and card and pass theft into Stonehenge's repertoire! It already does everything else. Why not?
*Sessine, I can't remember if I told you, but I know Black Thirteen's origin. I will tell you or anyone else if you want, but be warned, you may not like the answer...
I will be the unpopular voice in the back still saying that Trains seem altogether too well-maintained and frankly, out-of-touch posh for the Island -- lush velvet interiors, gorgeous stained hardwood floors and booths, expensive little lights above the booths in the hypothetical dining cart, perfectly kempt paint on the exterior engine and carts.. they're discordant with the setting and tone of the Island's canon writing for me (cheeky, a bit rude), and though the Drive does create beautiful things, the Drive's beautiful creations are primarily organic. (The only really big example is the Common Ground, and it's an understated kind of beauty, in its way -- the witchblooms are what make that place pretty.)
In that vein, they were also Way Too Friggin' Probable -- we had Titans crashing around the map and the trains were still running on time all the time to their destinations, their destinations where they were everywhere at once.
This is how I imagine the Island's first iteration of trains. The only way I can make sense of this is through the lens of dark humor. Shit, there are grenades going off nearby? One of your mates just got killed? There's a giant monster obscuring the horizon? There's an eggbeater embedded in your chest and you don't have enough money to find proper clothing or medical care? A worrisome infection on your foot may or may not soon begin sprouting mushrooms that look (and sound) exactly like Stephen Fry? A camera is closely tracking your every movement? Don't worry, just pop onto the train. Its opulence will soothe you.
This is what I would like them to be, though I know I'm a minority. Running the tracks under ground is the only way I can make sense of the heavy jungle and forest that's supposed to be covering the entire island; subways are of a more appropriate scale for the size of the island itself, and for all of you who reckon there couldn't ever be any kind of beauty there, stand yourself on a platform sometime late at night when the rest of the world is sleeping. The cities are sleeping, the traffic is sleeping, the whole world is sleeping except you and a busker sat on one of the turnstiles. You're the only ones around, the two of you, so you know he's not playing his saxophone for money. Must be just the pleasure of music. The sound fills the space, the sound turns some of the more eloquent graffiti on a nearby column on its head ("lost and safe" and "who the fuck can see forever"), the sound fills the whole of you to bursting. Then the ground begins trembling, and the tracks begin chattering in their moorings, and the lights tremble, and the tram rushes into the station. You wait for the doors, step inside, and you'd swear the music follows you halfway down the line, long after it ought have faded into the clicking of the wheels over the lines.
Beyond my curmudgeonliness here though, I think Fred's suggestions are ace.
This is what I would like them to be, though I know I'm a minority. Running the tracks under ground...
Bit difficult to show a comparable 'here's a line of cars as in the other photo' picture if it's all in a tunnel, innit, Doc my darling?
As far as the feel of the trains goes, I think we should consider what would make the most enjoyable gaming experience first, and then come up with a justification afterwards.
so... I think that if passes (or an item like them) are continued to be implemented the 'creatures' that will 'remove' them from you must be challenge able and if they are they will have to be hard. (i recommend a 2 - 3 level skip for them.)
i like the idea of the trains being social spaces and of them having "improbable events" on them. i also enjoyed the possibility of being put into the middle of nowhere for no conceivable reason(other than you actually wanted to end up there and didn't even know it)
also this is improbable island were talking about here, the trains aren't moving at all, the world is just manipulated into moving on without them. they have no set course and no driver. it is all up to the person who holds the 'first class pass' as to where the train shows back up.think about it if these 'trains' run on a set course what happens when something is put in there way. also if an object were to run constantly over the same area wouldn't something realize the possibility of an easy plunder by sabotaging this 'track'.
Sadly, trains will not be coming back.
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