Okay, so, I think I may have made my opinions pretty clear on the subject, but at the behest of CMJ and others, I am starting up a new topic for feedback on the new Global Banter.
For anyone who would like to keep up on what's gone on so far, it is the tail end of Banter in Common Grounds.
So: Long story short from what I have seen so far. Some people like it, most people dislike it, and some people are willing to give it it's week.
I don't like it personally, but I've posted until I'm blue in the fingertips and I don't really have anything to add.
So uh, have at 'er. 
It was mentioned in the other thread that Places should have options. I agree. I think Global Banter should be optional, and Private Banter still be an option in Places.
In outposts... Yes, alright, I am sick to death of sloppy, festering piles of cuddles and variations on that theme. It's gross to see all the time, even in the tranquil quiet of Squathole.
But I won't let that take away from a few clear benefits:
Mass sudden invitations. If something amusing is happening, a quick hop to Banter allows a good portion of the Island to be invited suddenly. Someone's having a swordfight with trouts on sticks? Where? CC404? Brilliant, on my way.
Nothing delights me more than when two PRATs are in an outpost and suddenly three more show up. We never plan that, it always happens randomly, but imagine if everyone could pull that off all the time. "Hi entire island not in Dwellings, want to come play hopskotch in Ace High? Because that's happening. BYOB."
that is pretty cool, that chance right there.
Now. I think another fun experiment would be erasing all banters except in Dwellings. But that's partially because I am a jerk. No.. I am mostly a jerk. I think scrapping Banter in outposts would probably make even more people angry, but would... hopefully... remind a few players that Improbable Island is a Role Playing Game and not a social networking site.
A lot of people talk OOC here, I know, but I am sometimes very deeply disturbed by how dramatic Out Of Character conversations can get! This is a game! I think deeply felt personal dramas aren't something someone should feel from a game.
This is just me, though. 
What I've seen from Global Banter so far today is a LOT of complaining and very short fuses and a few people who didn't pay much heed to the change and a lot of confusion.
I think that no true judgements can be made until it has been around longer, though.
Just expect a lot of excited invitations to absolute nonsense until this goes away again !
Exactly what Gen said.
It's a chat function. Relax.
And no, dammit, I don't mean "HOW DARE YOU COMPLAIN?" I mean "Why? Why are you angry/dismissive/annoyed?" Voice your opinion, be calm, and try it. If it kills you, you never have to try it again.
Plus, this will or won't work, and it's already been dubbed an experiment, as well as . easy to change back.
Plus, this will or won't work, and it's already been dubbed an experiment, as well as . easy to change back.
People are saying it's going far too fast for them, but from my experience with it earlier, it didn't seem to be going much faster than NewHome Banter during the busy part of the evening (which is fast, granted, but a lot of the complaints were from people who do chat in NewHome during the busy hours).
I'm easily pleased.
My only regret with this system so far is that, in the future, I don't see myself being able to quietly reminisce to some rookie about Back when Banters were Separate. Unless I'm in a Place, of course, I don't see much slow, quiet bantering being possible. But that's really just a first impression.
No problem with banter itself (I kind of like it, actually), but the island is running very slowly for me.
I only have one sadness about it.
In the past, you'd do a scene somewhere remote, like New Pitts or Squathole or good old Ace High.
It would stay there, lonesome, for some time, and the best, the best, was if you happened to wander back, sometimes you'd see little banter posts from people commenting on your scene.
There was something wonderful about Harris leaving a little applause behind, or someone else grinning.
Otherwise, I love me some change.
moo
-Rose
I only have one sadness about it.
In the past, you'd do a scene somewhere remote, like New Pitts or Squathole or good old Ace High.
It would stay there, lonesome, for some time, and the best, the best, was if you happened to wander back, sometimes you'd see little banter posts from people commenting on your scene.
There was something wonderful about Harris leaving a little applause behind, or someone else grinning.
Otherwise, I love me some change.
moo
-Rose
But I won't let that take away from a few clear benefits:
Mass sudden invitations. If something amusing is happening, a quick hop to Banter allows a good portion of the Island to be invited suddenly. Someone's having a swordfight with trouts on sticks? Where? CC404? Brilliant, on my way.
Nothing delights me more than when two PRATs are in an outpost and suddenly three more show up. We never plan that, it always happens randomly, but imagine if everyone could pull that off all the time. "Hi entire island not in Dwellings, want to come play hopskotch in Ace High? Because that's happening. BYOB."
that is pretty cool, that chance right there.
Okay. I'm going to say this now.
I don't like the new banter. Quite frankly, I respect the experiment, and the intentions, don't get me wrong.
But I can't keep up unless Banter is the only thing I use.
You can't talk to people who aren't like Me and Omega and can Banter with a few posts on the same page.
You can't even use banter for it's intended purpose! It's forcing people off the website and onto Gtalk, which not everyone has.
Instead of, say, making Global Banter more obvious. Which if most of my asking around is correct, a lot of people DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT.
CMJ's goals aside, this new system is CHAOS. Nobody can coordinate scenes. Nobody can flesh out an idea together. When a newbie shows up in NewHome, they get buried under forty people saying different things. I can't even give a good greeting and have any more than two people see it before it's gone. I've literally had people greet me on my fourth post in Banter.
And all that aside, the worst part is, I can see this staying. Enough of the more experienced people who were around before banter say 'if you don't like it, don't use it!', then comment how much they like it. But Banter can't even be used like this, private Places or not. You're pushing people AWAY from outposts so they can have a quiet little chat about a scene if this continues.
I'm not asking to scrap the idea, but it needs more than a bit of shuffling around, private banters elsewhere, then slapping a 'DONE' sticker on it.
Sonny: Yes, I know the old global could've done that, except I couldn't expect everyone I know to be on global. There were very, very few people using global to begin with, that's what makes this unique.
This ties in with what Collin said. If people were more aware of Global, it may get used more.
Maybe, after this experiment is over, if the link to Global Banter was put somewhere near regular Banter, people would remember wat Global is, and use it more!
But before this, sadly, Sonny, if I popped into Global I would wait a good five minutes for a reply, from people who didn't really want to RP at the time.
Before this, Global Banter was a missed opportunity by a lot of people.
And another thing Collin said is yeaaaah the rookies. The game prompts you to introduce yourself in Banter. if Banter is a constantly moving wash of people with bright and colorful names and text, one lone rookie will get lost in the tide, it is true.
Twosocks also has a point, that's a pretty damn nice feeling. Though I've started to distract people who've made me laugh. I'm paranoid about the seven days always running out before compliments are paid. I keep forgetting about that! Even less time in places like NewHome!
I think Buddleia put it the very best:
And then, the suggestion of one Global Banter instead of many Local Banters. At first I thought "oh god no, it'll be chaos with sixty people Bantering at once instead of the usual 30 in NH, 20 in KT and 10-or-so from everywhere else all suddenly thrown in to one channel".
And then, I stopped to think about that. Yes, there would be chaos. There would be howls of dismay from people who insist that they need Banter and can't possibly function without it. There would be great confusion from people trying to coordinate one scene mixed up with the people trying to coordinate another scene elsewhere and a third group in another town and the other several score folks chatting away with all their usual OOC stuff. It would be a painful transition, if we make it.
And yet. And yet. The Island did just fine before the introduction of Banter. Scenes still got coordinated; roleplay still happened without Major Misunderstandings which could only possibly have been worked out by a chat channel tied to the location. Nowdays, in the areas without Banter - the world map, the Commons, the pubs, many thousands of Rooms in Places - people still roleplay just fine. Scenes still get coordinated. Rookies still get welcomed and their questions answered. Location Four still gets a lot of use.
A lot of what I see in the Banter channels, particularly in the busy places, in my opinion does not really need to be posted into Improbable Island. Lots of one-word posts, lots of - let's be frank - somewhat inane chat. People are saying "hi" and "lol" and "bye", but also licking, nomming, groping, petting, hugging, bantercouch, and so on. Social noise rather than meaningful messages. Of course, there are also things like "sorry got to go in ten minutes, let's wrap up this scene soon", and "the box my character is offering yours is approximately six inches on a side. If you open it, it contains a confused badger" and "hey, people, event A is taking place at location B at time C! All welcome!" - I expect that everyone would agree that those are a fine use for Banter. But, a lot of what happens in Banter does not look to me as if it really really needs to be taking up Improbable Island server capacity. Some of it does, but not all. (Of course, that's my opinion, and I'm sure many of the people posting social messages like greetings and how their day went and so on would think that yes, it does need to be posted, and who am I to criticise them and try to silence them?)
Maybe, just maybe, if local Banter was removed, then after the initial overloading chaos and gnashing of teeth, then people would reconsider the purpose of a Banter channel, and start only posting in it if they think that their message really needs to be seen by everyone, and using GChat or AIM or MSN or an IRC channel or something for their semi-private socialising? Maybe? And maybe possibly this would free up 400 chat-pages worth of server space, and let the Island run a little faster?
But I won't let that take away from a few clear benefits:
Mass sudden invitations. If something amusing is happening, a quick hop to Banter allows a good portion of the Island to be invited suddenly. Someone's having a swordfight with trouts on sticks? Where? CC404? Brilliant, on my way.
Nothing delights me more than when two PRATs are in an outpost and suddenly three more show up. We never plan that, it always happens randomly, but imagine if everyone could pull that off all the time. "Hi entire island not in Dwellings, want to come play hopskotch in Ace High? Because that's happening. BYOB."
that is pretty cool, that chance right there.
As for the complaints not addressed above:
Non-II chat functions are too inconvenient? Honestly? Distracting people/gchat/e-mail/etc., and/or opening a new tab is too much bother? It's a few mouse clicks, maybe a password typed in. Or, it's a message typed to the people you want to talk to anyway. And what are most of the messaging options anyway, but e-mail derivatives? Clicking your mouse, maybe typing one paragraph, maybe copypasting that paragraph is too much hassle? No. It isn't. This is a stupid point to make, and I really do not think any of you are anything but damn smart.
Who has read the MOtD? This is not only still officially an experiment, CMJ is also rolling out Place-specific Banter, even room specific Banter! For everyone who wants Banter channels that are underpopulated/quiet all of the time, it's about to get better than it was.
Think of the childrenRookies!
Noble, but...I already saw it on day ONE of the experiment, where someone introduced herself as new, and started asking questions, and the chat flew several lines past her questions, with no answers, and then... Everyone acknowledged her, AND all of her questions were answered. We attract literate, clever, patient folk. It's sad, but true.
I firmly maintain that we do NOT need Outpost specific Banter, as it tempted us to take the path of least resistance, and not go from outpost to outpost to talk to people, and this not only created the Banter clusterfuck that was Kittania, but oh.... CC 404, New Pittsburgh, and AceHigh being OVERRUN SO FUCKING OFTEN.
Having Global Banter only in Outposts, and Private/specific Banter only in Places, no matter how you slice it, is a win/win scenario.
The outpost notice board is much better for mass invitations, not at least because it stays up for a lot longer than the banter that moves at 20 posts a minute. Which is exactly my problem with the new banter. It is distracting, difficult to follow, challenging to read and impossible to hold a decent conversation.
Going to throw my two cents into the mix here:
I love the new Banter and think that it should stay. We will adapt and thrive as we always do.
Besides, I want place wide banters, and this was the first step towards that goal :3
I don't like the new Banter. It's too fast-paced and newbies asking questions will get lost in it. Also, we already have a sitewide Banter thing called Location Four. I like the idea of a sitewide Banter viewable from the main page of the Outpost, but I don't like that it replaces the individual Outpost's Banter channel. Maybe a setup with three channels (Story, Banter, Sitewide Banter) would work better?
I don't like the new Banter. It's too fast-paced and newbies asking questions will get lost in it. Also, we already have a sitewide Banter thing called Location Four. I like the idea of a sitewide Banter viewable from the main page of the Outpost, but I don't like that it replaces the individual Outpost's Banter channel. Maybe a setup with three channels (Story, Banter, Sitewide Banter) would work better?
I firmly maintain that we do NOT need Outpost specific Banter, as it tempted us to take the path of least resistance, and not go from outpost to outpost to talk to people, and this not only created the Banter clusterfuck that was Kittania, but oh.... CC 404, New Pittsburgh, and AceHigh being OVERRUN SO FUCKING OFTEN.
Honestly, I've read all the opinions here and I agree with some and disagree with others. While this is a much more fast-paced Banter than some, I'm loving it so far. Things will slow down as people get used to the change after all!
A way to keep an eye on who's active while I'm building? Check.
A way to spontaneously invite people to a scene of somesort without needing SP? Check
A way for new members to get greeted Island-wide on the chance (and it HAS happened) that NewHome is empty? Check!
Not mention keeping Banter more central to RP. As much as I like a quick hi and such, the cuddling and the like does get out of hand at times. Lots of times.
I for one plan to keep a Global banter channel open in at least one of my rooms (for building and such times!) and if we're really getting place wide banter? Even better.
Not mention keeping Banter more central to RP.
As for the complaints not addressed above:
Non-II chat functions are too inconvenient? Honestly? Distracting people/gchat/e-mail/etc., and/or opening a new tab is too much bother? It's a few mouse clicks, maybe a password typed in. Or, it's a message typed to the people you want to talk to anyway. And what are most of the messaging options anyway, but e-mail derivatives? Clicking your mouse, maybe typing one paragraph, maybe copypasting that paragraph is too much hassle? No. It isn't. This is a stupid point to make, and I really do not think any of you are anything but damn smart.
Not mention keeping Banter more central to RP.
Not mention keeping Banter more central to RP.
AAAAAA
I can't post my ideas and feedback because it's already been said or quoted by Genevieve and Harris.
... No, fuck it. I'll do it anyway because it hasn't been said my way.
Yes, it's long been my opinion that Banter detracts from the Roleplay experience and edges II towards being a social networking site, with how it's being abused used by the populace. I've had conversations with many people about this, many long conversations where lots of good stuff was said.
Now, I recognized then the obvious problem with removing Banter entirely from the site, and besides, it still could be a useful tool despite the (in my eyes) misuse of it in the past. When I was asked what the best alternative was, I suggested that Global Banter be left to appease the most people while solving the most problems. I was then told that this was a popular sentiment among other roleplayers in a like mind to mine, and that made me happy.
Right now, all we need is some time for people to get used to the fact that Banter is a supplement to Story and not an alternative to it. We have lots of posting, yes, but if you weren't aware we'd sometimes had days in NewHome and Kittania Banter where they'd move at nearly a page a minute.
So the negative effects we're seeing and hearing about aren't all that new, and if you ask me the positive potential that the Global Banter offers far outweighs any negatives that I see.
Honestly I don't care if the new changes are so heinous that it forced you to quit using Banter. If you leaned on Banter that much then it's a good thing that you're learning to not use it as a crutch. As Harris said earlier, plenty of players made do without Banter years ago, and in my opinion, Genevieve's explanation was my idea of how Banter would work when it launched. A lot of people got used to Banter being an OOC roleplay channel, and it soon ground downhill into a place for people to avoid contributing to Story. I don't give a shit if you had a terrible day. I'm not on II to hear about your life, I'm here to play a game.
Change happens, people. And in my experience the positive changes aren't immediate. Right now Banter isn't the ideal thing, it's not the 'perfect' vision I have in my mind, but it now has the potential to be like that.
So, thank you CMJ, for getting to this.
Thank you mods and friends who listened to my rants and tooth-gnashing about every petty little problem I have with the site's userbase and picking out the relevant bits in between all my short-tempered rancor.
That's my problem Quinn. It won't stop. It's just that it is always in Kittania and sometimes New Home so people like me, who avoid those two outposts, don't usually notice it/ have to deal with it.
I mean this with no offense, but I hate reading about people kissing and cuddling, snuggling and groping, and some of the less than mature puns and jokes. Like hurr-de-hurr, fart jokes. **Titter**
And I don't like admitting it either because alot of people seem to have this idea that I don't want to talk or I want to be treated different. I don't. I like when Arodang comes along and gives me an e-hug. I like when Leporidae Menk sits on my head. I like being silly! Hell I love being silly.
But now I feel like I'll just be drowned out by the norm of... uhm... There's a way to put it.
When it comes down to it now, I feel that it doesn't really matter what I say anymore. If it sticks, it sticks. I'll check occasionally to see what's going on, but more than likely, I'll just hide it.
And at this point, I probably won't talk to alot of people OoC because my silly attitude online has been compromised by how serious/ adamant I have been concerning the subject.
Edit: I want to make it very clear, I am not trying to guilt anyone here. Seriously.
I mean this with no offense, but I hate reading about people kissing and cuddling, snuggling and groping, and some of the less than mature puns and jokes. Like hurr-de-hurr, fart jokes. **Titter**
And I don't like admitting it either because alot of people seem to have this idea that I don't want to talk or I want to be treated different. I don't. I like when Arodang comes along and gives me an e-hug. I like when Leporidae Menk sits on my head. I like being silly! Hell I love being silly.
But now I feel like I'll just be drowned out by the norm of... uhm... There's a way to put it.
When it comes down to it now, I feel that it doesn't really matter what I say anymore. If it sticks, it sticks. I'll check occasionally to see what's going on, but more than likely, I'll just hide it.
And at this point, I probably won't talk to alot of people OoC because my silly attitude online has been compromised by how serious/ adamant I have been concerning the subject.
Edit: I want to make it very clear, I am not trying to guilt anyone here. Seriously.
)
Seems like the global stuff has calmed down already, and I hope it's a trend that continues. It's an experiment worth trying and I am wanting to see how it is in a week or so after everyone's gotten a chance to calm down about it.
Initial impressions were pretty poor, I have to say, but hey.
My two cents:
I think it's nice. I think it will work well if the place options are implemented.
Other than that, it's kinda neat.
Seems like the global stuff has calmed down already, and I hope it's a trend that continues. It's an experiment worth trying and I am wanting to see how it is in a week or so after everyone's gotten a chance to calm down about it.
Initial impressions were pretty poor, I have to say, but hey.
I have come to pitch in my two cents
This new banter is chaotic. Yesterday at the busy times the oldest post was 57 seconds old.
I came to the Island well after Banter was introduced and it was one of the things that sold me on staying on the island seeing it in it's current state sickens me.
I watched a Rookie's questions go unanswered because her post was gone buried beneathe everyone else's conversation
Don't glomp/huggle/pounce people in Banter you say? No I won't stop that. You know why? because it is fun to have Banter shenagins.
Banter allowed me to talk to people ooc and story at the same time. Now I must chose which one I want to do.
Hide it you say? Why should I now have to hide Banter because I don't want to have a headache from 60+ people posting at the same time.
The old Banter worked much better and I await its hopeful return.
I apologize if I have upset anyone for repeated what someone else said.
There are several solutions in front of you! If you can't change the situation, change yourself! If you won't do that, don't complain!
All you can govern is yourself, and if you refuse to do that you can't hold other people to your expectations.
Banter has changed. Feedback is important, yes, but as Harris' first post says, calm down a little. If you're sickened by the current state of things, then you need to step back and cool your toes. So what, Banter was going fast at one point in time? At my time of posting Banter's oldest post is roughly at the same time as NewHome's oldest post. Guess what? Posting times fluctuate. I've had private parties in my own Dwelling run at a minute and a half per page. There were ten people there, not sixty.
There's a lot of things I've seen in my years on the Island that I didn't agree with. But I can't change what people do! I can't fix stupid! I can't dictate the appropriate level of silliness! I would like to, and in fact if there were less silliness my problems and yours too would be solved, but as you refuse to be less silly with your cuddling and glomps, Banter will be flooded with scenes like:
Player A glomps player B!
Player B is glomped!
Player C watches Player A glomp B
Player D walks in and sees glomps! He decides to join in and glomps A and B!
Player C cuddles player A, B and C, brain melted from the inane fuzzy cute shit around him
Player A squarks as she is glomped by Player D. Oh noes!
Player F, sickened by all the seriousness, clicks the safety off on hir Glomp 21, then charges the slide. Shi leaps past the pile, drive-by glomping the others and filling them with .45ACP (Automatic Cuddle Pile) rounds. Oh, the humanity~
Player E witnesses the drive-by and frantically phones the cuddle police. Zomg onoes!
A little exaggerated, perhaps, but I've seen scenes like this in Banter. Now, when you have this and then five other people trying to do something consstructive and RP related, Banter will get crowded. This can happen anywhere, if the right ten people are present in an Outpost. This sort of thing has happened with the old system. Inane scenes which you refuse to ease up on are posts, too, and they contribute to the timer as well. Sure it's fun but it's not necessary, and it takes up space.
As I said before, this Banter has the potential to be a truly useful tool to Story. It just needs some faith and a little bit of change from the players. I have the courage to change! I would like to believe that you lot have it too! I'm optimistic that there's yet people who can impress me and meet my absurd standards. This can help!
I have come to pitch in my two cents
This new banter is chaotic. Yesterday at the busy times the oldest post was 57 seconds old.
I came to the Island well after Banter was introduced and it was one of the things that sold me on staying on the island seeing it in it's current state sickens me.
I watched a Rookie's questions go unanswered because her post was gone buried beneathe everyone else's conversation
Don't glomp/huggle/pounce people in Banter you say? No I won't stop that. You know why? because it is fun to have Banter shenagins.
Banter allowed me to talk to people ooc and story at the same time. Now I must chose which one I want to do.
Hide it you say? Why should I now have to hide Banter because I don't want to have a headache from 60+ people posting at the same time.
The old Banter worked much better and I await its hopeful return.
I apologize if I have upset anyone for repeated what someone else said.
There are several solutions in front of you! If you can't change the situation, change yourself! If you won't do that, don't complain!
All you can govern is yourself, and if you refuse to do that you can't hold other people to your expectations.
Banter has changed. Feedback is important, yes, but as Harris' first post says, calm down a little. If you're sickened by the current state of things, then you need to step back and cool your toes. So what, Banter was going fast at one point in time? At my time of posting Banter's oldest post is roughly at the same time as NewHome's oldest post. Guess what? Posting times fluctuate. I've had private parties in my own Dwelling run at a minute and a half per page. There were ten people there, not sixty.
There's a lot of things I've seen in my years on the Island that I didn't agree with. But I can't change what people do! I can't fix stupid! I can't dictate the appropriate level of silliness! I would like to, and in fact if there were less silliness my problems and yours too would be solved, but as you refuse to be less silly with your cuddling and glomps, Banter will be flooded with scenes like:
Player A glomps player B!
Player B is glomped!
Player C watches Player A glomp B
Player D walks in and sees glomps! He decides to join in and glomps A and B!
Player C cuddles player A, B and C, brain melted from the inane fuzzy cute shit around him
Player A squarks as she is glomped by Player D. Oh noes!
Player F, sickened by all the seriousness, clicks the safety off on hir Glomp 21, then charges the slide. Shi leaps past the pile, drive-by glomping the others and filling them with .45ACP (Automatic Cuddle Pile) rounds. Oh, the humanity~
Player E witnesses the drive-by and frantically phones the cuddle police. Zomg onoes!
A little exaggerated, perhaps, but I've seen scenes like this in Banter. Now, when you have this and then five other people trying to do something consstructive and RP related, Banter will get crowded. This can happen anywhere, if the right ten people are present in an Outpost. This sort of thing has happened with the old system. Inane scenes which you refuse to ease up on are posts, too, and they contribute to the timer as well. Sure it's fun but it's not necessary, and it takes up space.
As I said before, this Banter has the potential to be a truly useful tool to Story. It just needs some faith and a little bit of change from the players. I have the courage to change! I would like to believe that you lot have it too! I'm optimistic that there's yet people who can impress me and meet my absurd standards. This can help!
This is sort of drifting off into a discussion on the merits and demerits of glomping. (Is that what it's called nowadays? I'm new to the term.) This seems to raise strong feelings.
For what it's worth, it's not really my cup of tea either. But if that's how other people enjoy themselves, then good for them. That's just as valid as anything that I choose to do.
So is this going to lead to banter fights? Different people all trying to twist banter into their own personal vision? Whether it should be for glomping, for chit chat or exclusively for serious role play discussion or whatever? I sort of hope not.
For what it's worth, my own initial reaction was mild disappointment as we no longer have that space for giving thumbs up to scenes that we particularly like. Well how about that? Most things have some pros and some cons. We notice what we've lost straight away, and take a little while longer to realise what we've gained. It didn't take long to realise that there were now interesting things that we could do with it. I'm still waiting to see how it pans out.
Behaviour will change to adapt over the next week or so, I'll be in a better position to make judgements then.
Is global banter going to cut back on inter-player communication or facilitate it? Probably a bit of both, in different ways.
I'm starting to ramble now. I'll shut up.
we no longer have that space for giving thumbs up to scenes that we particularly like.
This is sort of drifting off into a discussion on the merits and demerits of glomping. (Is that what it's called nowadays? I'm new to the term.) This seems to raise strong feelings.
For what it's worth, it's not really my cup of tea either. But if that's how other people enjoy themselves, then good for them. That's just as valid as anything that I choose to do.
So is this going to lead to banter fights? Different people all trying to twist banter into their own personal vision? Whether it should be for glomping, for chit chat or exclusively for serious role play discussion or whatever? I sort of hope not.
For what it's worth, my own initial reaction was mild disappointment as we no longer have that space for giving thumbs up to scenes that we particularly like. Well how about that? Most things have some pros and some cons. We notice what we've lost straight away, and take a little while longer to realise what we've gained. It didn't take long to realise that there were now interesting things that we could do with it. I'm still waiting to see how it pans out.
Behaviour will change to adapt over the next week or so, I'll be in a better position to make judgements then.
Is global banter going to cut back on inter-player communication or facilitate it? Probably a bit of both, in different ways.
I'm starting to ramble now. I'll shut up.
For what it's worth, my own initial reaction was mild disappointment as we no longer have that space for giving thumbs up to scenes that we particularly like.
Cherri: Not what I meant. There have actually been several technical complaints on the matter of chat programs, and I was firing back at those. Not at you, or anyone who has trouble multitasking. Only at complaints of "programs X and Y are too diffcult to use compared to the ease of Banter" I stand by my statements about those complaints.
Fred: Mayhap I am, and you are right. I hope so, and will continue reading to find out. I rather like being proven wrong, especially at times like this!
P.S.- Youse runs ya joint wid class, Bud. Anyone tells ya oddawise ain't fit ta fill 'is own shoes.
Gen and Agelmar: I'd stage a coup to install the two of you as King and Queen of the Island, but I'm not sure who I'd need to overthrow to do that.
Dan and Crazy Audrey, maybe?
Haha, no. I'd be the silliest queen.
I can't do drag, either.
Cherri: Not what I meant. There have actually been several technical complaints on the matter of chat programs, and I was firing back at those. Not at you, or anyone who has trouble multitasking. Only at complaints of "programs X and Y are too diffcult to use compared to the ease of Banter" I stand by my statements about those complaints.
Fred: Mayhap I am, and you are right. I hope so, and will continue reading to find out. I rather like being proven wrong, especially at times like this!
P.S.- Youse runs ya joint wid class, Bud. Anyone tells ya oddawise ain't fit ta fill 'is own shoes.
Gen and Agelmar: I'd stage a coup to install the two of you as King and Queen of the Island, but I'm not sure who I'd need to overthrow to do that.
Dan and Crazy Audrey, maybe?
Sonny: Yes, I know the old global could've done that, except I couldn't expect everyone I know to be on global. There were very, very few people using global to begin with, that's what makes this unique.
This ties in with what Collin said. If people were more aware of Global, it may get used more.
Maybe, after this experiment is over, if the link to Global Banter was put somewhere near regular Banter, people would remember wat Global is, and use it more!
But before this, sadly, Sonny, if I popped into Global I would wait a good five minutes for a reply, from people who didn't really want to RP at the time.
Before this, Global Banter was a missed opportunity by a lot of people.
And all of you, please, remind to acknowledge other people's complaints and thoughts about new systems, no matter how much you differ. It's their valid opinions. You can't argue them away or declare them insignificant or silly compared to your own view of things.
They came here to voice their thoughts, and if they are the same as others have posted before them, then so be it. It's their right to voice them. Don't make them regret doing so. Don't make them feel stupid because they don't exactly agree with the posting elite.
Agree to disagree.
It's a delight to try and understand other points of view. It enriches the island immensely. Just don't forget it.
Except for me. Obviously my opinions count for mor- oh, wait. No, they don't! 
And all of you, please, remind to acknowledge other people's complaints and thoughts about new systems, no matter how much you differ. It's their valid opinions. You can't argue them away or declare them insignificant or silly compared to your own view of things.
They came here to voice their thoughts, and if they are the same as others have posted before them, then so be it. It's their right to voice them. Don't make them regret doing so. Don't make them feel stupid because they don't exactly agree with the posting elite.
Agree to disagree.
It's a delight to try and understand other points of view. It enriches the island immensly. Just don't forget it.
Also, Sonny and Jenkins: neither of you mention the expanded Places chat being rolled out. Do you not like that at all, or...?
Erm... Harris? I didn't read Sonny's post as a criticism of anyone.
Paraphrased: If you don't agree with someone's opinion, it's fine to disagree with them and state your own view, just try to do it in a way that acknowledges and respects them.
That's called being courteous.
Erm... Harris? I didn't read Sonny's post as a criticism of anyone.
Paraphrased: If you don't agree with someone's opinion, it's fine to disagree with them and state your own view, just try to do it in a way that acknowledges and respects them.
That's called being courteous.
If I push, and you* disagree, push back. Your debate opponent is not the arbitrator of your debate. The only people who won't let you express your opinion is a moderator, and that's only if the message is deemed to cause more harm to the overall environment than what the message would meaningfully contribute to the debate.
When I disagree with you, don't get hurt when I tell you, "Of course this is a bad idea. It's obviously better to be that." Just parry and riposte. "No, it's not that simple and obvious. You've forgotten this and that." It's not an uncivil street fight where the defeated is killed, it's an organized sparring match for the benefit of the competitors and the audience.
I'm getting tired of each recent thread veering off into, "Why do you think it's fair that I can't express my dissent?" You can express your dissent, no matter what your opponent says. Get back on course and keep discussing.
*This is the general "you" and is not addressed to anyone.
If I push, and you* disagree, push back. Your debate opponent is not the arbitrator of your debate. The only people who won't let you express your opinion is a moderator, and that's only if the message is deemed to cause more harm to the overall environment than what the message would meaningfully contribute to the debate.
When I disagree with you, don't get hurt when I tell you, "Of course this is a bad idea. It's obviously better to be that." Just parry and riposte. "No, it's not that simple and obvious. You've forgotten this and that." It's not an uncivil street fight where the defeated is killed, it's an organized sparring match for the benefit of the competitors and the audience.
I'm getting tired of each recent thread veering off into, "Why do you think it's fair that I can't express my dissent?" You can express your dissent, no matter what your opponent says. Get back on course and keep discussing.
*This is the general "you" and is not addressed to anyone.
Harris, Awesome Fred, Hairy Mary, thank you all for the lessons on Advanced Debating, I'll certainly keep those insight in mind with the coming elections. Now, let's go back to Debating 101; staying on topic.
This banter is what I originally hoped for when Global Banter got rolled out. I'm not opposed to a different chatspace with more people than just the same familiar faces you see every day in Global/Kittania/NewHome. But I do oppose removing the Local Banters, simply because they gave Outposts their own feeling. The Kittania-banter was different from the NewHome banter, and that is something I do miss. You had a choice of different places to go to depending on your mood. If you wanted a more quiet place or didn't like the topic at hand, you could move.
Harris, Awesome Fred, Hairy Mary, thank you all for the lessons on Advanced Debating, I'll certainly keep those insight in mind with the coming elections. Now, let's go back to Debating 101; staying on topic.
Maniak, I think the Story of each Outpost is supposed to give each outpost their own feeling. Was there ever much Banter chatter going on in CC404? AceHigh? And from what I remember, Kittania and NewHome often sounded fairly similar to me. Putting Local Banter back will empty out Global. I don't think they'll coexist very well.
Harris, Awesome Fred, Hairy Mary, thank you all for the lessons on Advanced Debating, I'll certainly keep those insight in mind with the coming elections. Now, let's go back to Debating 101; staying on topic.
This banter is what I originally hoped for when Global Banter got rolled out. I'm not opposed to a different chatspace with more people than just the same familiar faces you see every day in Global/Kittania/NewHome. But I do oppose removing the Local Banters, simply because they gave Outposts their own feeling. The Kittania-banter was different from the NewHome banter, and that is something I do miss. You had a choice of different places to go to depending on your mood. If you wanted a more quiet place or didn't like the topic at hand, you could move.
Ummm, I've just spent the last half hour reading through all of the posts above, and well... Throughout most of the above I've seen two main sides, and the simplest forms of the arguments are
"I think Banter should be for constructive uses towards story." and "I think Banter should be for what ever I want it to be."
Yet, each one I seem to not see something taken into account, Banter itself, the word, Which by definition means
"The playful and friendly exchange of teasing remarks."
Now if we go for the serious side of banter should be a story aid, then Banter itself is a misnomer, and I can see why allot of people treat it this way, it's name has it's roots in silliness and fun, though on the other side of the argument, there is going too far and being too silly.
Now for my opinion
Personally, I like to head into banter when I log on, I will quite often hug, snuggle and even hugtackle people, I do this because I feel it is an adequate display of my affection and friendship towards the people I have spent the last two and a half years getting to know, now this is no different to how I treat my friends in Real life, I am often known as being a fool, to do silly and often stupid things and to be generally a ball of hug based energy. Though thankfully I have begun to mature of late and tone down some of my idiocy, I'd honestly feel as if I lost something if I weren't allowed to grab one of my friends in banter, pull them onto the metaphysical object that is the couch of banter, and snuggle up to them.
Yes, quite often of late I have neglected story, though often this is not entirely my own fault, I have problems with shyness and allot of my craziness is to help me get past that, and I've been doing it for so long that it's second nature. Though I do have my limits, yes a good number of you will say "But you're usually in those very silly and stupid rolling balls of hugs in banter." I indeed am, and though I make the initial hug, it is often (90% of the time if I had to guess) someone else who escalates it to that, not me. There are also times that I feel just too... Awkward to even touch story, and there are people who intimidate, annoy or something me enough that I'll stay away, only a couple of months ago I mostly got over the feelings of intimidation I get to the veteran players of the island, and by veteran I mean those who had been played II for about as long as I have when I started to play, the only one I wasn't really scared of is Carter. Quite often if somone like Eben or Praco or more was in story I'd stay away from it, I was even scared of Bob in banter until I forced myself to pounce that ridiculously long and fluffy tail of his.
But enough of what I think should be banter for... to sum this all up for those who don't want to read a load of text. If you want banter to be sensible, change the name to something else, because the root word is not sensible, and if it's kept there will always be silliness.
There are also times that I feel just too... Awkward to even touch story, and there are people who intimidate, annoy or something me enough that I'll stay away, only a couple of months ago I mostly got over the feelings of intimidation I get to the veteran players of the island, and by veteran I mean those who had been played II for about as long as I have when I started to play, the only one I wasn't really scared of is Carter.
Quite often if somone like Eben or Praco or more was in story I'd stay away from it, I was even scared of Bob in banter until I forced myself to pounce that ridiculously long and fluffy tail of his.
That post warmed my heart enough to change my Smug Cat avatar back to my Happy Kitty avatar.
You know what? This Global Banter stuff is okay.
Waverly,
I find your post incredibly honest and cathartic and I makes me realize some similar elements of my past, though not from the island. I'm glad you wrote it. I probably don't RP because I don't enjoy the attitudes of either Veterans With Standards nor the HuggleGlomps crowds, both with which I've associated elsewhere during my adolescent groups.
I think, after considering all those details, the main justifiable complaint by the Veterans With Standards group is that the change to Global Banter means they cannot ignore the population that tears their hair out, whereas with isolated Banters, they could much easier get along with them. I think Global Banter necessitates two opposing sides to conflict with each other everywhere they go, whereas the previous system meant that these two rival forces could be safely separated.
Thank you Waverly,
I tried to write a meaningful post back but all I really want to say is Thanks and Good Post.
-Rose
[An epic post]
I like the new banter...
mostly because.. why my character has ic'ly become a bit reclusive.. she heads out to outposts on occation just.. not as much.. there hasn't been much new of trouble or anything that has reached her, and she doesn't need to go in to get her training/fighting done...
For and I don't have as much time to rp for hours in outposts where the posting speed is faster then perhaps I can do while doing housework(or particularily avoiding housework) while rping.
I Really like global banter because I can just post random sillyness, it can become a bit of a scene if I can post a few quick posts but then I can be silent and just read up at my leasure and enetertainment and not worry about feeling I need to post quick.. because it is banter not story.. it is the place of sillyness and ooc interactions
and now I'm not just the slow posting recluse in my Oasis.
I find it great for building.. sure there was the old global banter and I could rp a bit with Sonny and Omega and full Metal lion as the mood struck but being in a new tab I tended to forget I have it open and stop posting.. and if people aren't posting within 5min or so there well everyone seems to leave... which happened often.
The place options sound awesome too and will likely help ease up on the speed of the one big Banter.
I Really like this banter.
I don't think it's a problem that folk have their, uh... "romantic fun pile" (for lack of a better term, I swear!) that they're writing in Banter. I don't think it's a problem to have or to write. I DO think it's a bad thing to write that only in Banter, though.
I remember before we had banter, when folks would post the sort of antics we're now used to seeing in Banter, in Story. And yeah, many of us who didn't initiate any such thing, myself included sometimes were not in the mood to participate, or even address anyone in such a confusing morass of plotless goofiness, BUT.
As has already been said in here, what happened to art for art's sake? -What happened to goofiness for goofiness' sake in this game about fighting the Improbability Drive on a reality TV show with Robots and Midgets? It has largely moved to Banter. Why? I would speculate that it's because writing all of that in the chat channel is easier than writing it in Story- it's easier to go where there is no necessity for making sure you're staying in a coherent plot/ interacting with the setting in meaningful ways/what have you.
The reason why I say posting the truly insane goofiness only in Banter is bad twofold- because THIS IS IMPROBABLE ISLAND. It has chainsaw chuks, foetid Midget brothels, and that truly terrifying silent killer... THE MOOSE.
No no no no no NO, this is NOT a game for SERIOUS BUSINESS.
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't mean serious stories (or subplots)have no place. They do. Good humor is balanced by a good balance with tension/drama/etc., and good drama is balanced well with a well-timed joke or two. Or nine. I just mean that SERIOUS is NOT a PREREQUISITE, and don't let ANYONE tell you OTHERWISE.
(This message brought to you by Corporal Punishment)
The final point that I find the completely unstructured silliness being kept in Banter is this: Ever sat down to play a game with friends, and you all got together to play this game, and all said you wanted to... and a group splits off from everyone else to do their own thing, while everyone else is still playing the first game? And neither of the (NOW two groups) ends up paying much attention to each other, because they're no longer playing the same game, and are naturally focused on each separate thing they're doing?*
*Yes, I have. I play tabletop roleplaying games regularly, and OH BOY is this easy to have happen.
Footnote: I just realized I have no idea how to talk about this feature without talking about what we have been using it for, just as much as what we can use it for. Hmm...
We're certainly learning things, aren't we?
Even if we do end up going back to local-only Banter (and I still think it's too early to say whether we will or we won't), we've certainly come away from the experience wiser for having had it.
We're certainly learning things, aren't we?
Even if we do end up going back to local-only Banter (and I still think it's too early to say whether we will or we won't), we've certainly come away from the experience wiser for having had it.
Grey, interesting point you are bringing up with the meaning of banter.
Hairy Mary, Fred and Sessine, thanks for your insights/advice/examples on debating, I will try to remember and use them. 
Waverly, Buddleia, Grey and also Fred, you explained it perfectly.
It feels to me like sometimes the same sort of separation of groups also permeates the forum, and some might try to force their standards on all the rest. Then, once their counterparts get tired of it and stay silent, an agreeable consent is found, everyone left moves to a new topic, and the rest is forgotten. In short, discussing till enough people give up so their controverse opinions can seemingly be dismissed and never acknowledged again.
Eventually someone new might bring it up, only to be directed to the old thread and sort of told that things have been decided to be so and so, and that's it, or the same process happening anew.
Mind you, I might exagerate a bit, and I'm not saying it is always happening. It could easily be only me being very sensitive to any sort of peer pressure and elitism and whatever else there is, and as was said by other much better, people might not be aware of others percieving it as such. I really don't intend to accuse anyone in specific, I just try to express my thoughts, and hope I did it better this time.
And Harris, yes, I have no experience in debating, I try not to take it personal, but I don't know what you want to hear. I won't do any name-calling, and I can't make a list of all the bits that led me to my conclusions or what exactly caused me to voice them here just now. If you feel offended by my unexperienced attempt at preventing what I thought might happen again as described above, and reminding everyone, including me, to be courteous, considerate - and maybe that some just want to post what they wanted to say, and not get further involved in lengthy discussions. That some are just new to the game and not prepared to be bombarded with deep analyses of their opinions by people with years of experience in this game and knowledge of all the discussions that came before . That too much dissecting and countering of their posts might keep people from coming back - well, then I seem to have failed. Sorry.
I hope it wasn't too vague for you this time.
I had no time to take a look at the new banter in places, but I think there are many that will like being connected to the rest of the island while building or RP. It's a good feature, and bound to have more activity compared to the other global. (because there is no alternative 
)
LydiaDefountain, yes, I also often forgot I had global open when I did other things simultaneously, but at least it was slow enough to catch up when I remembered about the Island.
I prefer slower outposts, because it gets stressful to try and keep up with the fast RP, and it's too easy to overlook the partner's lines. Not that I played much in the last months, but I at least had to try the new features. =)
And to Harris' other post. I think I understand what you mean there. It really can be hard to find the right balance.
RP depends a lot on the payers' moods. Maybe that also feeds into your theory, in that at some point the funny, crazy sort of stuff shifted too much into banter and story became more and more serious, because the players at that moment looking for fun found it in banter, and those looking for the serious stuff in story? Then over time it just amplified, till now the fun and crazy-centered stories tend to happend somewhere else?
CMJ! You gave us some interesting and cool new things lately. Thanks for them, no matter how much I complain, or this new banter turns out!
I think this was enough for now, and you might not get another reply out of me for some time :3
**foot shuffle**
I'll admit. I have warmed up to the new banter. 's not so bad.
**foot shuffle**
I'll admit. I have warmed up to the new banter. 's not so bad.
I still believe the new banter will slow down as the place options roll out.. are they coming before we declare if the experiment is good or bad? please? it would likely drastically change some peoples opinions if we had a better idea of what all it is going to be together... I know coding takes a bit longer but... pretty please?
I think when people have banter options the global banter will move a bit slower as some of the rp specific banter gets to be in their place
I dunno, it's warming up to me too.
Instead of logging on and being bored, at least now I always have someone to talk to. And the hugglepouncesquee, I noticed, is lessening a bit. But it's not too serious. We are at an acceptable level of silly.
So. We're learning about how people use Banter for different things, and how people use Banter for Story-related things (which was originally a BIG part of why I made the Banter channel in the first place).
Would there be any interest in a feature where you could type, say:
Would there be any interest in a feature where you could type, say:
That seems rather useful.. especially for when in a outpost and people are rping quicker.. And maybe even for things like ooc in common grounds.. ya that seems cool..
Though just as a question would a /aside60 be doable as well
Just cause I'm not sure I see most posts with 30 seconds.. when my connection was bad I had to manually refresh and didn't see the posts for 45 secs at the fastest.. but when in an outpost now with a decent connection I think seeing something within the min is doable..
To differentiate it, the output could be
Would these Asides be posted into Story or Banter?
It does sound like they might be rather cool (and I do like the idea of their transience being indicated somehow), but they would only work for people who
a) have Autoupdate turned on, and
b) Autoupdate is working correctly for them, and
c) they are paying close attention to the correct channel at the right time.
For instance, I usually leave UA turned off. Even when roleplaying - just hitting Refresh every few minutes is fine with me, if people aren't posting a mile a minute. So unless an /aside300 or more was used, I wouldn't see them.
I would agree with Buddleia. Anything self-deleting sounds good, but a minor technical hitch or a real-life distraction would be all it would take to make it defeat its own purpose.
Speaking for myself, I can't make use of auto-update most of the time, so anything less than a few minutes would have a good chance of being effectively invisible to me.
Self-destructing posts?! That is so fucking brilliant I have to go change my pants.
I do agree they should be differentiated from normal posts, too, maybe with parenthesis (normal for ooc comments in roleplaying chatrooms in my experience) or something else extra-special.
As my own aside: I've toyed with the idea of using the `m code to make text invisible in Story posts to provide beneficial (or silly) information to the other player(s) without ruining the flow, but I'm not entirely comfortable with it because sometimes it's easy to miss, especially considering I don't know how the other person's screen looks (or if they use a screen reader, maybe! that would be awkward).
Aside-aside: I agree with lots of the posts since Waverly's. The most interesting aspect to me is that many of us have had such similar experiences.
I feel like that would just encourage sloppy roleplaying? We can get that sort of thing across in greytext and so on already, with minimal creativity. And as has been noted, unless people are really glued to the channel, they might miss it entirely.
Moreover, I think that would remove another reason for us to pay you for specials.
Personally, I like the new banter. I don't even care if people are just going to be talking about random things. Yes, I could do without some of the uh. Boobhats and probably-groping-but-we're-not-using-that-word-okay, but I haven't had any problems with it!
So, I guess.
I think it's pretty okay?
I feel one problem in self destructing posts is that they would allow me to cause unprecedented confusion everywhere. All the time.
I feel one problem in self destructing posts is that they would allow me to cause unprecedented confusion everywhere. All the time.
I feel one problem in self destructing posts is that they would allow me to cause unprecedented confusion everywhere. All the time.
On Überbanter
Pros
I agree that it's nice to have a way to see who might be active without traveling to an outpost (especially if you're building), but you still can't tell from the map if you're out exploring or crate hunting. I don't consider this a problem since I rarely spend a lot of time at once on the map, but if there were a banter channel available I wouldn't mind wandering around.
I like that it gives a very powerful means for mass inviting to spontaneous happenings. This is a good thing, and particularly useful if you're planning a big event in story or want to spread the word about a place or something. The message board supplements this nicely, even if does lack a convenient way to field questions.
It slso covers the fairly rare occurrences of an empty NewHome, as well as the not-so-rare occurrences of an empty Failboat. I honestly don't tend to stay on the Failboat if I can help it, among other reasons, because it's a bit isolated. I can definitely imagine a rookie (or anyone, really) getting stranded there with nobody to story or even banter with under the previous setup. It's a bit of a cycle that feeds on itself, if you're alone when you get there you don't want to stay, then the next person that finds themselves on the boat doesn't have reason to stay either. With a shared banter, at least, folks might wait around a little and chat with everyone as usual, giving some time for people to meet up on the boat and a scene to develop. And if you're unavoidably stranded, at least you're not cut off from everything.
Cons
Clunky to clarify and comment on scenes already in progress. What was once a quick post along the lines of 'My character is reacting because...' or 'Oops I meant' or 'I'm confused' or 'Where is everyone?' seems to have shifted to either distracts (fortunately with multiple recipients, but distracts are easier to miss) or out of character emoting. (This feels like a step in the wrong direction, when the previous banter setup made it (mostly) unnecessary and fairly uncommon. Some things like walls or clarifying who one is speaking to don't stick out so much within Story, but other information does)
Place-specific banter may alleviate this, but with the current all-inclusive chat space, it feels somehow wrong to comment on a scene taking place with a few others when everyone shares the same banter. In some respects it's like there's even less discussion of scenes taking place in banter because so many people won't have a clue about the context and nobody really wants to clutter up the shared space with information that's only relevant to two or three people, like half of a phone conversation.
I think the question of what banter is intended for and how it's used is a very important one, with different answers for different people. Some people focus on it as a tool in the service of story, others chat about their day and still others use it for complete silliness and cuddling. Honestly I don't think any of these are mutually exclusive of the others and used the previous system of banter for a little of everything! I greeted people, hugged, fluttered about and cracked jokes, but if I needed to comment on story I could do that. I could compliment something as particularly funny, or ask a question that would break the flow or take out a chunk of the fourth wall if it were in story. I could tell the people I needed to that I've got to go in advance or simply bid them a good night.
I think I'd like to see a more prominent (but separate) global banter channel, something that will get used more than the old global, but not the only option. My opinion might change when place specific banters are rolled out, but I've shied away from the new system because it's not as useful to do the things I did with the previous one
On auto-GREM'd comments
I'd like to add to the previous points that anyone coming across a scene later (even if only by a minute or two outside the comment's lifespan) will lose the additional humour or context these comments would provide. I like the idea of asides well enough, but feel like that's what localized banter and creative greytext is for. I'd hate to miss something if I had to wall for a minute, had an auto-update failure, or just wasn't there at the right time.
The idea of having more than two channels (Story and Banter) keeps coming up, so while we're at it, why not three: Story, Story Banter, and Banter Banter*?
* less ridiculous name to be determined at future date
Linking everything in a house to one global channel would be--potentially uncomfortable. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of locked or secret rooms? And, er, bedrooms. I can see that getting awkward.
What if you could link up certain rooms into a 'global' Story? For example, the kitchen, living rooms, and library would share a channel, while bedrooms and your Top Secret Study would be excluded. Or you could pick any combination of those. Boy, would that be complicated. Also sort of cool. Also complicated. How would you indicate which rooms are linked and which aren't?
I can't make up my mind either. For now, I'm content with just leaving little hints in my writing to point to where I'm going--it's a bit of a challenge if I'm moving about somewhere like the Bingo Hall, but it's kind of fun to figure out a good way to do it.
Also, that was a serious suggestion: Story, Story Banter, Banter Banter. Not kidding. Any reason why that wouldn't work? (Aside from the fact that it might or might not make mobile and netbook users go blind with frustration. You could always hide one.)
Any reason why that wouldn't work?
Also: if, for some special occasion, you did need a Place-wide chat space... well, your Place is your own sub-universe. You created it. You get to say what the rules are.
You could decree: "For today only, in here... I am turning on my Place-wide Banter, and it will be the new Story."
Just... another option to think about. Supposing you ever needed it.
Sonny: I follow every point of yours, and agree, except for why you don't want debate to happen and kept debating anyway, and why you're bringing up people who only want to post once in a thread, and do not want to post again. I really don't- you have totally lost me.
However. I do love everything else you've said, and everything else is overwhelmingly positive, so I am going to assume that you are not only not blaming anybody for anything in this discussion, you are not attacking anybody in any way. It sounded like you were pointing fingers, not peacemaking, BUT. The evidence simply does not support the idea that you have said anything bad here.
It also sounds like you're familiar with trying to run or play a tabletop roleplaying game without shenanigans, and for that, you have my sympathies.
CMJ: I like the autodestruct comments. I think the possible problems that are being cited would be easily dealt with including a description of them in the "Help" link, just like emoting and specials.
Buddleia: I like your idea! I disagree on your reasoning (including a whole new feature so that you can avoid saying "___ then walks in the library" seems wasteful), but I see FUN possibilities for a "turn global story on/off" feature like you have with Banter in your Place. Off the top of my head: realtime Public Address system announcements!
And global Banter is workin' pretty nice. Cherriki Ten roped me into what was GOING to be a one-on-one in Improbable Central, and it turned into a full on Gladiatorial battle between a Cherriki plush doll, and an Ebnezer plush doll, complete with betting, and a full audience- all beacuse we started yakking about it in Banter, and invited maybe five, six people total. Imp Central started at four people, and topped off at eighteen people before it all ended.
How much work would making 3 channels be. Story, Banter, Global Banter. And then only allowing story and one of the banters to be on screen at any given time.
How much work would making 3 channels be. Story, Banter, Global Banter. And then only allowing story and one of the banters to be on screen at any given time.
How much work would making 3 channels be. Story, Banter, Global Banter. And then only allowing story and one of the banters to be on screen at any given time.
How much work would making 3 channels be. Story, Banter, Global Banter. And then only allowing story and one of the banters to be on screen at any given time.
Global is doing a lot of what I'd suspected it would and a couple things more. Now that posttimes are leveled out and the Doubters have actually had a sit-down and thought about how they could use Global, we're really reaping the benefits. From what I've observed.
Hey, hey. Just clarifying one point by an example:
You used to sell two kinds of yogurt. Strawberry and Plain. You've decided one day to stop selling Strawberry. When people come to you and ask for Strawberry yogurt and you tell them you don't sell it anymore, you are not forcing them to buy Plain yogurt. You are merely preventing them from buying Strawberry yogurt from your store.
I hope the point is made clear. Thank you!
hold players who don't like it at gun point and force them to indulge in the system you like
hold players who don't like it at gun point and force them to indulge in the system you like
So this is my understanding of the pros and cons of Global Banter so far. This is taken largely from this thread.
Pros.
- People can chat easily with each other from multiple parts of the Island.
As a result.
- People move around a lot more as they can still chat away with friends. This in turn has led to more activity in the outer outposts - New Pitts, Ace High, and CC404.
Also
- If a scene is happening somewhere, then it's much easier to let people know, and more of a crowd can come and join in.
These seem to me to be big advantages.
Cons.
- Loss of one way of letting people know that you enjoyed their writing somewhere. As has been pointed out, there are other ways of doing this. However I still think that doing this in a public way carries advantages - it helps remind other people to do the same. So overall this is a rather small disadvantage.
- Loss of separate places for people to follow their own modes of enjoyment, be it glomping, chatting or whatever else. This leads onto the next.
- Loss of places for people who are a little nervous to dip their toe in. I refer back to Grey's and Waverly's posts for this. It is easy to feel intimidated by veteran, well established characters. The veteran players don't have to be elitist to be intimidating, just their existence can do this. I refer in particular to Grey's post where she mentions feeling nervous of Eben. Ebenezer is the probably the friendliest, least intimidating person on the Island and I'm sure that he's horrified to think that he's made anybody nervous.
If banter helped provide somewhere where they could feel safer starting out, then that was providing a useful function. Even if they stayed there, going so far as to write whole scenes that could easily appear in Story. If now they can't, then it's a large loss.
That about sums it up as far as I can tell. What have I missed out?
Naught, as far as I can tell.
Naught, as far as I can tell.
I confess I was one of the Grumblies, at first, not anymore. This stems from my personal way of using banter: both as 1) RP helper and 2) as a place to exchange a few friendly words with the fabulous people that write on the island. Bear with me for a few words on each.
1) As an RP helper (crutch, if you want), I found it extremely useful for popping a quick question regarding, let's say, a character's attributes that may not be obvious, to me, at least, from description and RP only (it happens!). It's also useful for letting your scene partners know if you're going to be away, for how long, which info you can't impart by simply typing /afk. Let's say you are doing a scene in which the presence of a certain character is crucial (and his/her input, too). It that particular character's writer has to go do RL stuff for 10-15mins, the scene can be merely delayed, if the writer is going to be away for more than that, perhaps for the day, the scene will have to be aborted or altered a lot, as to fit that character's lack of response. And this is just an example. Using distractions for that, I grant you, is possible, though not terribly practical. Using another form of external instant messaging, ditto.
2) the casual chitchat is by no means necessary, or useful but merely pleasant and fun. I've been part in quite a few sparkling, witty and hilarious banter conversations, both with long time friends and random comparative strangers, on topics ranging wildly from linguistics, etiology or music theory, to rains of colorful confetti-like mice and bra cup sizes. Ranting, most of it, pointless, but, as I said, sometimes hilarious. Sometimes, true, there was a bit too much glomping for my taste, drowning everything else, but I'm not young anymore (alas), and that might be to blame for my reticence.
Now, with the new system:
1) I kind of still can do it, if it is not extremely busy around, but it is harder to do. Not impossible, even when it's busy, it's still doable: let's say I have to take a phonecall. I write that I'll be back soon, then hit /afk. The other players in the scene will see that I'm AFK, and if it's important to them, they can scroll back a bit and see if I left a time estimate in banter, even if it's been swamped. If it's a question to a certain character, a distraction can do, not everything has to be lighting fast, it's not trading on the stock market, it's RP, done for fun and silliness.
2) - Less probable, much less probable, while still not impossible.
These are, for me, the main disadvantages.
On the other hand, there are the advantages, which Hairy Mary summed up very neatly. Just the other day, for instance, I was very happy I got to play with Mara for a bit, thing that wouldn't have happened, but for the Global Banter, and that I had hoped for since a chance encounter in NewHome, featuring a bottle of stolen booze and a bunch of wet and pissed off ammo cats.
----------------
(Read here to avoid longwinded rant)
So: verdict, in my opinion: minor inconveniences for good results, I'd say overall a Good Thing.
I know my post isn't so much 'feedback' as questions, but I'm not sure where else to ask.
Do we know yet if we're planning to keep this function for good? It feels like it's been instated for good, and most are just waiting for the last of the complainers to conform or leave.
Personally, I fried my hand in hot oil Sunday morning and have barely logged in for the last 4 days or so. In my heart, I miss my friends and stories, but I was also suprised to find my blood pressure rising when I thought about it, and the thought, I can't deal with that banter, running through my head. I was shocked to realize I was half looking forward to coming back, and half dreading the stress and discomfort. Over a game I used to love and feel happier playing!
I have social anxiety and frankly, there's a lot of people on the site I don't see eye to eye with and can't tolerate being around. It used to be simple to deal with, since like real life, you didn't have to be where the other person was! No conflict, no sore feelings, no sweat, everyone enjoys their own lives.
Now if I see someone online I'm uncomfortable around or don't think I can deal with, I don't want to log in at all. "What if he's in banter? That means I can't participate because I don't want to interact with him and his friends. Why should I be excluded? Because I didn't get here first, and there's no privacy now, and I don't have the will to cope with the stress."
On a side note of actual on-topic, I was suprised to see how many people were upset banter is not already used EXCLUSIVELY for rp coordination. Crazy thought here, I realize this isn't Facebook, but it is still a socially-geared website. I get not everyone wants to hear everyone's drama - again, probably easier to avoid when you could leave the area and people behind to talk somewhere lighter - but still. I've had days where I've been quaking with an anxiety attack and needed to feel not alone, and the folks in Newhome talked me down gently so I could sleep and cope. I am so thankful for that. And they weren't all people I previously knew to private message, gtalk if I had it, etc. No one I knew was around, and kind strangers came through for me, making new friendships!
Going a little further with this, I've never had a real life roleplay group to play D&D with or any tabletops. But I have to ask those who do; do you ONLY 100% talk about the game while you're there? Is it like the stereotypes on TV where you completely lose sight and stop acknowledging reality to 'become' a character? Or do you talk to your friends, joke around, play a game controlling a character while socializing? I much prefer the latter, but perhaps this is some part of roleplay culture I'm misunderstanding? Are you SUPPOSED to take the game too seriously?
I really think there should just be attempts to find a happy medium. I don't think we should have our emo high school drama spilling out all over banter, but I also don't think we should be frowned on for talking about life, connecting with new people who can relate and making friends!
Again, take with a grain of salt from me. No one ever agrees with my points, making me some kind of black sheep. And I don't plan to stay on with new global banter whether it becomes story-related-only or remains casual. I just can't tolerate what feels like being crowded in a party room with a billion different people and conversations I want no part of. I enjoy my privacy too much to find comfort or happiness here anymore. And after a year and a half of loving this website and it being the one thing I look forward to when I wake up each day, I'm sad. I'm losing one of the last things I really enjoyed, and I feel empty. All for jamming all the banters together for reasons I do not understand to begin with. I'm real sad.
Yup, it looks like this is gonna be permanent from now.
Teddybear, does it help to know that we have Place banters separate now? So you can go to your Place or a clan hall or whatever you like, and hang out with your friends there privately. Yes, it's not the same as outpost banter - but I think it may actually work better for your purposes? Someone you don't like or don't want to be near could be watching the outpost banter you feel is safe, but you're totally in control if it's in a Place. You can have complete privacy there, and invite your friends over via distract or messaging.
Teddybear, does it help to know that we have Place banters separate now? So you can go to your Place or a clan hall or whatever you like, and hang out with your friends there privately. Yes, it's not the same as outpost banter - but I think it may actually work better for your purposes? Someone you don't like or don't want to be near could be watching the outpost banter you feel is safe, but you're totally in control if it's in a Place. You can have complete privacy there, and invite your friends over via distract or messaging.
Teddybear, does it help to know that we have Place banters separate now? So you can go to your Place or a clan hall or whatever you like, and hang out with your friends there privately. Yes, it's not the same as outpost banter - but I think it may actually work better for your purposes? Someone you don't like or don't want to be near could be watching the outpost banter you feel is safe, but you're totally in control if it's in a Place. You can have complete privacy there, and invite your friends over via distract or messaging.
Teddybear, does it help to know that we have Place banters separate now? So you can go to your Place or a clan hall or whatever you like, and hang out with your friends there privately. Yes, it's not the same as outpost banter - but I think it may actually work better for your purposes? Someone you don't like or don't want to be near could be watching the outpost banter you feel is safe, but you're totally in control if it's in a Place. You can have complete privacy there, and invite your friends over via distract or messaging.
I find the concept of trying to get introverts to speak an amusingly sisyphean task. You'd probably have to use a MoTD poll.
Also, I don't think One True Banter (which is what I'll call this new Banter for ever and ever, no matter how many people don't understand me) is a permanent solution. I think this for one reason: more people will join the Island. I hypothesize that, eventually, there will be Too Many People, and Something will have to be Done. What will it be? I dunno. Maybe it'll be switching back to the old system. Maybe it'll be putting Global Banter back in, while keeping One True Banter. Maybe I'm and nothing horrible will ever happen. But that's the future. For now, pending any epiphanies about how despicable it is, I'm enjoying this experiment-gone-right.
If the One True Banter is now permanent, I still think icons denoting which outpost the speaker is occupying would be helpful.
Yup, it looks like this is gonna be permanent from now.
This new Global Banter, in essence, reminds me of Facebook or Twitter.
If you like using it, it's great. It lets you natter with your friends and share stuff and meet people and learn things and ask/answer questions and arrange things and have fun - it's fleeting and instant, there's always someone there to chat with, and you can do whatever you like.
If you don't like it, then ... you can either abstain, becoming a Weirdo Antisocial Loner to all the people who do like it, and missing out on all the socialising and news and organising of parties that it seems everyone else is enjoying so much. Or, you can force yourself to look at it, and be continually wearied by the pace of the party and puzzled by the appeal, occasionally finding some small thing which seems worth reading and/or interacting with, but mostly wishing everyone else wasn't so keen on it (and would get off your lawn and turn their rackety music off, the damn kids).
If it isn't your thing, then no, of course you aren't being forced at gunpoint to buy the strawberry yoghurt. But if that's the only place you can get yoghurt, and if almost everyone else you wish to hear from and interact with is using yoghurt as their primary means of instant non-private communication (ok yes the mixed metaphor breaks down rather a lot), and if you wish to use something with similar properties to yoghurt .... well, a curry just ain't the same with strawberry yoghurt or sour cream instead of a nice plain yoghurt for your cucumber-and-mint raita.
I'd still be in favour of a Local Banter channel for the people who want to use that and a Global Banter channel for the people who want to use that.
@Hairy Mary: an excellent summary, good sir. I would also suggest adding that loss of local Banter channels has also made it harder to not just say you liked someone's roleplay after the fact, but also to coordinate or chat with people during the scene, without it getting lost amoung all the other things going on in GB.
@TeddyBear: your posts make me sad. I have every sympathy - I do feel rather the same about many points - but nothing constructive to add.
Okay, one thing I have noticed, and not heard mentioned here as a great positive:
Story and Banter channels don't swap places anymore. I haven't fiddled with the Place Banters yet, but it's certainly better in Outposts and the Failboat.
I mean, at least, I haven't seen it. Has anyone else?
There are times I'd rather have it off, but don't because someone might try to communicate something story related in the globanter. I agree wholeheartedly with Buddleia's post.
Teddybear, does it help to know that we have Place banters separate now? So you can go to your Place or a clan hall or whatever you like, and hang out with your friends there privately. Yes, it's not the same as outpost banter - but I think it may actually work better for your purposes? Someone you don't like or don't want to be near could be watching the outpost banter you feel is safe, but you're totally in control if it's in a Place. You can have complete privacy there, and invite your friends over via distract or messaging.
Just weighing in with an opinion here on a few people's points. Do take it, as with every other opinion, with a grain of salt.
I don't really understand the benefit in posting an appreciative note in a quiet outpost's Banter when you've seen a scene you like. I didn't realize people even relied on such things, because I've seen it so rarely, and maybe only once in response to a scene I participated in. Further, I almost never return to the "scene of the crime," as it were. I feel like a Distraction, though it takes maybe an extra minute's time, is a lot more personal, heartfelt, and likely to be seen by the person you're praising. When I see something exceptionally entertaining, I drop the participants a short Distraction. --Of course, this is not to say that leaving messages in Banter has/had no value, just that it never really benefit me in the way I personally roleplay or socialize.
As for scene coordination, I've always found it difficult to do that via Banter in a busy outpost, and in my experience (so far!) Global Banter is no faster than the busy outposts ever were. Possible, yeah, but difficult. Less convenient than coordinating through GTalk, more convenient than coordinating through Distractions. On the flip side, when roleplaying in empty or slow-moving outposts, I never needed to coordinate that way because I was usually playing a (semi-not-very)pre-planned scene with people I was already acquainted with through Distractions or GTalk. So in that case, it was far easier to ask a brief question or make a quick note via Distraction or chat client than to try to coordinate any bit of scene in Banter. I found this especially true of plot-driven group scenes (for I've often been pulled into a group chat). So I don't feel that any Story-related functionality has been lost with the changeover to Global Banter.
On the hot topic of "socializing," I don't have much of interest to say. (this actually turned into a very rambly paragraph, sorry) I'm very much an introvert; socializing with others is very exhausting. I'm also fairly shy and self-conscious in a group. I appreciate Global Banter as a tool that allows me to pop in and say a few things to the public at large, if I so desire, and then disappear again without being missed. The whole Island is in the same chat room, it seems, so it's really easy to say "Hi SoAndSo!" or participate in any small snippet of conversation that interests me without traversing the whole Island to do it, or committing myself to a conversation. I also don't find it distracting or distressing to have the whole Island jabbering at the bottom of the page, because I don't really expect to see anything important in there. When I'm doing a scene, I'll skim the chatspace every couple of minutes for the names of anyone I'm writing with, and then skim the comments they made to see if it's anything relevant to what I'm doing (or need to do). For the most part, I assume that Banter is just unimportant sillyness, as it always seemed to be in the busy outposts anyway.
EDIT for clarity: I personally use Banter and Story stacked, one atop the other. I find it far more readable and far less distracting then the cramped columns when they're set one next to the other. If you find Global Banter distracting you frequently, this might be something to try?
On the dire, vital topic of "glomping": I don't care for it, personally. I roll my eyes at it. But it causes me no intense pain when people are doing that, as I can very easily ignore it!
And on the subject of people you can't tolerate being around, my only advice is from personal experience. Yes, there have been a few people I've been less than enamored with. I think everyone's had this experience, no? But I've never found myself driven out of a conversation by the mere presence of such a person. In fact, I'm almost always able to either ignore them entirely, or be neutrally polite to them (as I am with many people, whether or not I dislike them!) Being part of a community is a team effort. If I want to be part of it, I have to engage with others. And if I don't want to be snarked at or bullied, I have to be polite to others. If you're not giving whoever-it-is any reason to engage negatively with you, then chances are, they won't. And if you feel like they're personally harassing you, you can always ask a neutral moderator for help. The mere chance of being in the same "room" with someone you don't like should never be a reason to give up and leave entirely. There's always a way to get along with people you don't personally like.
TL;DR: I think new Banter is pretty fun and neat. I have no real issues with it. However, I wouldn't be heartbroken if it was rolled back, either, because I just honestly don't have a single reason to get worked up about what Banter system we might or might not be using.
Disclaimer: Since it seems that this has been a season of frustration, Opinions, and miscommunication, I just want to make my intent clear: these many, many boring words are just my opinion, based on personal experience, and by no means do I expect everyone to share my experience. Everyone's opinion is valid, my friends, yours and mine, even if we disagree.
I'm still formulating an opinion, but I do see one thing that'd be handy in this global banter.. a color that indicated that someone is in either the same outpost as you, or a color that says they are in a different outpost. Yes, I know I can go to the contestants list to see where people are at, but it'd be nice to see.. hey, this person is in the same outpost, I should try RP'ing. Or something of the sort.
-Raidur, et al.
I'm still formulating an opinion, but I do see one thing that'd be handy in this global banter.. a color that indicated that someone is in either the same outpost as you, or a color that says they are in a different outpost. Yes, I know I can go to the contestants list to see where people are at, but it'd be nice to see.. hey, this person is in the same outpost, I should try RP'ing. Or something of the sort.
-Raidur, et al.
...but it isn't my game, it's CMJ's. He listens to all his players, including you -- and me! In the end, though, he has to make an executive decision.
It's not a democracy, it can't be; it's his personal creation. There are factors that neither of us can see.
Now it's your decision. You get to make it each time you log in, or don't. Ask yourself -- are the friends you have here, the values you've found here, the kinds of fun you can still have here... are they worth it to you, or not?
Sometimes, for some people, the answer is no. That's all right. Sometimes, the answer turns out to be no for a while, then they come back after a period spent doing other things and find they can have fun here again. When that happens, their friends cheer and do happy dances. And sometimes...
Sometimes, the value they've found here leads them to take a chance, try something new, and find out there are benefits after all, benefits they hadn't imagined.
I'm not going to try to tell you what your choice should be. Whatever you pick, though, don't feel so alone. You are a part of the community.
You're taking this decision so much more personally than it is. Your opinion matters, but it's not the only one. The last two (three?) weeks have been spent with lots of people voicing their icy hatred of the new Global Banter, then after a week (or two?) to warm up, many of them see the new benefits of the system and either accept that it's not so bad, or that they might even prefer it. You're just a little late to the thread (again, not that your feedback doesn't matter), because it seems that the majority of opinions turned around sufficiently to keep it in.
I thought your points about the "crowded in a party" analogy were really good, since though an extrovert's natural response is "just put yourself out there and make a ton of new friends", an introvert like yourself (as you described) will find that cripplingly unfun. Most of us know the pleasures of anonymity or undetectability when you just don't feel like dealing with certain people. I really get what you're saying, and I would be swayed quite a bit by more similar arguments by other people who feel that way.
Although, as said before by CMJ himself, it's pretty much obvious which way this issue is going to swing already.
I find the concept of trying to get introverts to speak an amusingly sisyphean task. You'd probably have to use a MoTD poll.
This new Global Banter, in essence, reminds me of Facebook or Twitter.
If you don't like it, then ... you can either abstain, becoming a Weirdo Antisocial Loner to all the people who do like it, and missing out on all the socialising and news and organising of parties that it seems everyone else is enjoying so much.
If it isn't your thing, then no, of course you aren't being forced at gunpoint to buy the strawberry yoghurt. But if that's the only place you can get yoghurt, and if almost everyone else you wish to hear from and interact with is using yoghurt as their primary means of instant non-private communication (ok yes the mixed metaphor breaks down rather a lot), and if you wish to use something with similar properties to yoghurt .... well, a curry just ain't the same with strawberry yoghurt or sour cream instead of a nice plain yoghurt for your cucumber-and-mint raita.
I'd still be in favour of a Local Banter channel for the people who want to use that and a Global Banter channel for the people who want to use that.
Teddybear, I suppose what I'd ask you to do is recognize the way you feel, but not let it make you feel like CMJ or everyone who likes the new Banter are doing it as a personal attack against you, or because they don't care about you. They do!
If you don't like it, then ... you can either abstain, becoming a Weirdo Antisocial Loner to all the people who do like it, and missing out on all the socialising and news and organising of parties that it seems everyone else is enjoying so much.
If it isn't your thing, then no, of course you aren't being forced at gunpoint to buy the strawberry yoghurt. But if that's the only place you can get yoghurt, and if almost everyone else you wish to hear from and interact with is using yoghurt as their primary means of instant non-private communication (ok yes the mixed metaphor breaks down rather a lot), and if you wish to use something with similar properties to yoghurt .... well, a curry just ain't the same with strawberry yoghurt or sour cream instead of a nice plain yoghurt for your cucumber-and-mint raita.
Hey, hey. Just clarifying one point by an example:
You used to sell two kinds of yogurt. Strawberry and Plain. You've decided one day to stop selling Strawberry. When people come to you and ask for Strawberry yogurt and you tell them you don't sell it anymore, you are not forcing them to buy Plain yogurt. You are merely preventing them from buying Strawberry yogurt from your store.
I hope the point is made clear. Thank you!
Don't feel bad, alot of people don't use Global. And I mean ALOT.
On average, there's about 40-90 people on at any given time, right?* But h0w many people are using Banter at any given time? Like, 3-6 people. Once you start hitting 7 or 8 people, you've got posts disapearing in less than 2 minutes, so people stop using it, and it'll go back down. But that's 3-6, out of the 40-90 people all on the island. That's about 5-10% of the island that's willing to go onto Global.
Now, I have no idea how many people used Banter regularly before the change, but I'm pretty damn sure it was more than 10%. There's probably more people using Banter, now the Places Banter has been installed, but that's out of sheer desire not to use Global. I've heard many people complain about Global in Global, but few of those who do have made posts in this thread, mostly because...
And if I don't want to be snarked at or bullied, I have to be polite to others. If you're not giving whoever-it-is any reason to engage negatively with you, then chances are, they won't. And if you feel like they're personally harassing you, you can always ask a neutral moderator for help. The mere chance of being in the same "room" with someone you don't like should never be a reason to give up and leave entirely. There's always a way to get along with people you don't personally like.
You're taking this decision so much more personally than it is. Your opinion matters, but it's not the only one. The last two (three?) weeks have been spent with lots of people voicing their icy hatred of the new Global Banter, then after a week (or two?) to warm up, many of them see the new benefits of the system and either accept that it's not so bad, or that they might even prefer it. You're just a little late to the thread (again, not that your feedback doesn't matter), because it seems that the majority of opinions turned around sufficiently to keep it in.
"do we really need the noticeboard?
do we really need the noticeboard?
And now that I think about it, I kind of have no idea why we decided to do this whole song and dance with the global banter anyway. What happened?
I've been thinking for some time now about making all Banter spaces global. Or, at least, trying it out for a month or so.
Thoughts?
Have to admit. I'm turning Banter off now. I've given it a go, and it's not doing it for me. This is no strong argument for the return to the old system, I didn't use it that much before. Now it's just conversation that doesn't interest me.
I am somewhat asocial (as opposed to antisocial), and perhaps there's a a little of the loner in me. Also it's long been my firm belief that we're all a little bit insane and I suppose that counts as weirdo.
Awesome: I think that "icy hatred" is pitching it a bit strong. As I recall the sentiments were more, dislike, but I'll give it a go. Also, what's wrong with us Brits enjoying a nice yoghurt/youghurt with cucumber and mint with your curry? I can assure you that it doesn't work anywhere near as well with strawberry. Or was it pushing metaphors too far that you were referring to?
blah blah, be nice to others
By no means am I suggesting that "playing nice" will solve all your problems and prevent people from being dickwads, in real life or on the Island. I've had my fair share of very unpleasant interactions with others, and people who are dickwads at heart will always be dickwads. I was trying to suggest, though, that for the most part, being pleasant to others eliminates a lot of reasons for non-dickwads to turn into dickwads. Such as minor offenses, misinterpretations, or accidentally stirring up someone you've got a negative history with. Just pretend I'm really smooth, okay?
Can we have a "Split" link straight from the single-column view, instead of having to click "Stack" then "Split" to go back from single to double?
I don't do too well with lots of rapidly flashing colors, especially when I'm trying to concentrate, so it's hard to do a solo scene or write Place descriptions or whatever when Banter is merrily flashing along on the right-hand side. I could disable auto-update, but then it still refreshes every time I write a line in Story or refresh the page. If I hide it when I'm doing something, but then want to go back to talking, there's an extra click because there's no Split above the single Story column. And. That bothers me. Because I am spoiled. And dislike extra clicks.
(/pathetic)
edit:
Slightly more reasonable request: Is there a way for the Banter heading to say which it is? Global could just be "Banter", but in Places it would be lovely to have "Local Banter" or "Place Banter" so that you know who's seeing your Banter.
Can we have a "Split" link straight from the single-column view, instead of having to click "Stack" then "Split" to go back from single to double?
Have to admit. I'm turning Banter off now. I've given it a go, and it's not doing it for me. This is no strong argument for the return to the old system, I didn't use it that much before. Now it's just conversation that doesn't interest me.
I am somewhat asocial (as opposed to antisocial), and perhaps there's a a little of the loner in me. Also it's long been my firm belief that we're all a little bit insane and I suppose that counts as weirdo.
Awesome: I think that "icy hatred" is pitching it a bit strong. As I recall the sentiments were more, dislike, but I'll give it a go. Also, what's wrong with us Brits enjoying a nice yoghurt/youghurt with cucumber and mint with your curry? I can assure you that it doesn't work anywhere near as well with strawberry. Or was it pushing metaphors too far that you were referring to?
First off, EVERYONE, please, STOP apologizing for having your opinions.
If you had no opinions, you'd be a pretty damned dull and lifeless person.
WHICH NO-ONE HERE IS. SO STOPPIT.
This leads me into a pure grammatical gripe I must level at this entire @#$%&ing conversation: PLEASE also DO NOT clarify that something you have said is YOUR OPINION. Of COURSE it's yours! YOU are the one saying it! If you're not telling us that you are relating SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION, then PLEASE do not say this thing anymore either. It just adds irrelevant detail to the larger points that you are trying to make, and makes your points harder to understand as a result.
Believe it or not, I WANT to understand EVERY point here, so PLEASE. STOPPIT.
Now back to your regularly scheduled argument, already in progress.
I find the concept of trying to get introverts to speak an amusingly sisyphean task. You'd probably have to use a MoTD poll.
First off, EVERYONE, please, STOP apologizing for having your opinions.
If you had no opinions, you'd be a pretty damned dull and lifeless person.
WHICH NO-ONE HERE IS. SO STOPPIT.
This leads me into a pure grammatical gripe I must level at this entire @#$%&ing conversation: PLEASE also DO NOT clarify that something you have said is YOUR OPINION. Of COURSE it's yours! YOU are the one saying it! If you're not telling us that you are relating SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION, then PLEASE do not say this thing anymore either. It just adds irrelevant detail to the larger points that you are trying to make, and makes your points harder to understand as a result.
Believe it or not, I WANT to understand EVERY point here, so PLEASE. STOPPIT.
Now back to your regularly scheduled argument, already in progress.
First off, EVERYONE, please, STOP apologizing for having your opinions.
If you had no opinions, you'd be a pretty damned dull and lifeless person.
WHICH NO-ONE HERE IS. SO STOPPIT.
This leads me into a pure grammatical gripe I must level at this entire @#$%&ing conversation: PLEASE also DO NOT clarify that something you have said is YOUR OPINION. Of COURSE it's yours! YOU are the one saying it! If you're not telling us that you are relating SOMEONE ELSE'S OPINION, then PLEASE do not say this thing anymore either. It just adds irrelevant detail to the larger points that you are trying to make, and makes your points harder to understand as a result.
Believe it or not, I WANT to understand EVERY point here, so PLEASE. STOPPIT.
Now back to your regularly scheduled argument, already in progress.
Agree to disagree then, my good sir. I'll continue reassuring people in a way that is comfortable to me. I prefer to be thought pointless than to be thought an asshole.
Agree to disagree then, my good sir. I'll continue reassuring people in a way that is comfortable to me. I prefer to be thought pointless than to be thought an asshole.
Aha.. hahah.. ha... I might cry. I came too late! If I had time between work shifts to come Enquierer before my burn happened, I might have been able to raise this new support against Global before CMJ already reached the 'keep' verdict.
It seems like in the same way I feel, most of the dissenters gave up trying to voice their opinion because it's so hard to move against a vocal crowd around here... Like so:
Now, I have no idea how many people used Banter regularly before the change, but I'm pretty damn sure it was more than 10%. There's probably more people using Banter, now the Places Banter has been installed, but that's out of sheer desire not to use Global. I've heard many people complain about Global in Global, but few of those who do have made posts in this thread, mostly because...
While I won't deny that some people changed their minds, I would like to point out that it's equally easy to assume many also simply stopped complaining for whatever reasons, or are even too polite or shy to voice their dissent in the first palce.
...How many are part of the very vocal and favoured handful, that automatically gets more attention because they repeat their opinions often enough? ...
Response to Teddy
Don't feel bad, alot of people don't use Global. And I mean ALOT.
On average, there's about 40-90 people on at any given time, right?* But h0w many people are using Banter at any given time? Like, 3-6 people. Once you start hitting 7 or 8 people, you've got posts disapearing in less than 2 minutes, so people stop using it, and it'll go back down. But that's 3-6, out of the 40-90 people all on the island. That's about 5-10% of the island that's willing to go onto Global.
...Leaving them to decide to leave, or give up Banter completely. Which I just don't think is right. It's CMJ's decision, but damn if I don't want to influence him to change his mind.
*Well, maybe like 25 if the island's really empty, but on average and all that
Without a vote and hard numbers it's not right to declare that the majority of the oppinions turned around. While it could seem to some that the majority did so in the forum, one has to ask how many of all the active player are posting here, and how many of those then really changed their mind?
How many are part of the very vocal and favoured handful, that automatically gets more attention because they repeat their opinions often enough? Or did someone go and count all personal stances here, in banter, distracions and other programms since the experiment started? Not as far as I know. So in my oppinion it stays a totally unsupported assumption.
Therefor the only fair way would be a vote in-game, in a module that can't be skipped accidentally, as banter-votes never striked me as very representative.
Otherwise pretending the opinion of the community is important to the final decision sounds like a lie to me.
I still wish this decision wasn't so final. Good points were made on both sides, but there are still valid complaints. I myself am with the ones prefering another solution, mostly because I still don't like the new, crowded party-banter and agree with all that was said by others above against it.
Are local banters really gone forever, CMJ?
The thought does occur to me, though, that if people can use alts to vote that will skew the results by possibly a large margin. That would have to be fixed first.
Can we have a "Split" link straight from the single-column view, instead of having to click "Stack" then "Split" to go back from single to double?
I am somewhat asocial (as opposed to antisocial), and perhaps there's a a little of the loner in me. Also it's long been my firm belief that we're all a little bit insane and I suppose that counts as weirdo.
I am somewhat asocial (as opposed to antisocial), and perhaps there's a a little of the loner in me. Also it's long been my firm belief that we're all a little bit insane and I suppose that counts as weirdo.
Everyone who doesn't like it has either assumed they will be disregarded like I thought I would be and decided to bite the bullet, or they've left. Those people's feelings don't get considered at all, just casualties.
It seems like in the same way I feel, most of the dissenters gave up trying to voice their opinion because it's so hard to move against a vocal crowd around here...
(...) and to base my own onion on. I mean opinion on.
(...) and to base my own onion on. I mean opinion on.
I think that you're being a wee bit harsh here, feelings get considered. But you can't please everybody. While I'm at it, I think that you're being a tad hard on CMJ. The man couldn't possibly reply individually to each post. If he tried then he'd have no time left over for actually writing the game the way he is.
But I'm intrigued, I'm not entirely sure why it is that Places don't supply what you need. In fact better than banter in less frequented outposts, since that's still open to the whole Island, whereas with Places Banter you can lock out anybody you don't want. Do you have your own Place? You could build one. They're quite fun, I think anyway.
Actually, in my case it was because I'd said my piece and I didn't have anything else to add. Hence I didn't add anything. I don't see this as some sort of combat at all, and I've got no idea why there seems to be so much aggressive sounding argument from so many people. Personally I'm much more interested in finding out how this effects the Island, for better and worse, there's almost always a bit of both with any change. So I read/listen to everybody.
Now I read that this is a big loss to you. Big enough that you're thinking of leaving. That would be a shame, but it is of course entirely up to you.
This thread has become unproductive. Closing.
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