Subject: The Wiki

Posted on: October 07 2012 @ 10:15 PM
By: Collin-Vee

Content:

Well, a few days ago, I spent a few hours going through every page from A-G, figuring out which stories/features didn't relate to the current Season, and which Contestants were no longer around, and I have to say only one thing about the wiki.

HNNNNNNGH.

It's probably one of the least-organized and difficult to use wikis I've seen in my life. It's taking every fiber of my being to leave people's creative pages alone and NOT fix them to be easier to move around in. Many pages have been half-written and abandoned, some have several inside jokes that would throw even ME off if I hadn't crawled the whole thing and asked around a bout them.

I'm not saying the Wiki's bad, but it needs an overhaul. Categorization, organization, page format, they all need to be fixed for the Wiki to be a resource as opposed to this giant confusing thing that people sometimes stick user bios on. We don't need to change content (though many pages SHOULD be deleted for various reasons), but a structure of some kind, so that users new and old can USE the damn thing, and enjoy doing so, as opposed to using a few pages here and there because they're useful, and ignoring the rest.

I'm not 100% sure where I'm going with this thread, but it needs to be brought to attention, and something needs to be done.



Replies:

Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 07 2012 @ 11:18 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

I'm glad you made this thread because in the last one I declared that no one should work together, so, for the sake of my pride, I can't. Speaking of the old thread, though, are you proposing the shuffling of namespaces? And, while we're at it, what's so bad about the wiki in the first place? (And I'm not saying I like Chaos and Lies in a roundabout way, I really want to know how it could be better.)

P.S. How many wiki pages are there, anyway?

P.S.S. As long as we're talking about the Wiki, maybe CMJ will see this list of semi-necessary features:


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 01:21 AM
By: Ebenezer

Content:

So, what needs to be done and who's gunna do it? Big Grin


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 01:38 AM
By: Escemfer

Content:

Actually, Collin-Vee, there are several links on the Wiki of Lies' main page to lists of pertinent or important information. These lists could easily be altered by any industrious player without having to alter or delete either namespaces or other people's pages. Mr. Green If you think that the information is hard to find, why don't you correct some of those link pages?

Someone who wants a good, inclusive index of the wiki for ease of browsing should look on the main page as a starting point. For the most part, it seems like our wiki is used for very specific things, like a tutorial here, a character biography there, 20 in-jokes sprinkled around... rather than a comprehensive and impartial index like wikis on other sites might be. And hey, if that's the way most players want to use it... well, I don't see the problem. Like I said, there are easy-to-browse lists and indexes on the wiki in easy-to-find places, and if those pages are out of date, there's no reason why you couldn't run in and fix it.

EDIT: from my 30 seconds of research, it seems like the only organization besides player-maintained lists would be namespaces, which appears to involve changing the title of each page? Which would, actually, make every single link to that page elsewhere on the wiki invalid. If I'm wrong, and there is another, easier, cleaner way to reorganize, do correct me! I probably wouldn't be able to keep myself from meticulously filing everything like some kind of Ebenezer.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 02:52 AM
By: Collin-Vee

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

are you proposing the shuffling of namespaces?



Somewhat. I meant more comprehensive managing of pages, which I'll go into further soon.

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

And, while we're at it, what's so bad about the wiki in the first place? (And I'm not saying I like Chaos and Lies in a roundabout way, I really want to know how it could be better.)



Difficulty to navigate! Some people's pages never get seen, because it's so splintered in different directions that nobody needs to, or even wants to look up random pages. Bio pages COULD do with more linear managing, but that's just to please the eye rather than accomplish anything. And as I've said before, some irrelevant and frankly confusing pages need to be edited or outright deleted!

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

P.S. How many wiki pages are there, anyway?



1593, if my count is correct.

Quote by: Ebenezer

So, what needs to be done and who's gunna do it? Big Grin



So far,

-- More comprehensive managing of pages as opposed to just sticking them in lists,
-- Maybe a 'page quality' system to not only help users find the best pages, but show editors where they can help improve the wiki,
-- Deletion or editing of some irrelevant, unfunny, or unhelpful pages
-- Better list-making (Alphebetical sorting only works if there's little to sort!)


And about doing it? I'm more than happy to help, but I'm only one man.

Quote by: Escemfer

Actually, Collin-Vee, there are several links on the Wiki of Lies' main page to lists of pertinent or important information. These lists could easily be altered by any industrious player without having to alter or delete either namespaces or other people's pages. Mr. Green If you think that the information is hard to find, why don't you correct some of those link pages?



It's a bit too much to do on my own, with over 1500 pages to go over...

Quote by: Escemfer

Someone who wants a good, inclusive index of the wiki for ease of browsing should look on the main page as a starting point.



That would leave out many quality pages, and many pages to references from older Seasons which still retain their giggle-quality.

Quote by: Escemfer

For the most part, it seems like our wiki is used for very specific things, like a tutorial here, a character biography there, 20 in-jokes sprinkled around... rather than a comprehensive and impartial index like wikis on other sites might be.



Exactly. I'm not saying to change any of this, either! It just needs to be sorted better, so that the in-jokes aren't buried under bios which don't always make it to the character list.

Quote by: Escemfer

And hey, if that's the way most players want to use it... well, I don't see the problem. Like I said, there are easy-to-browse lists and indexes on the wiki in easy-to-find places, and if those pages are out of date, there's no reason why you couldn't run in and fix it.



I want to do this, Esc! But I'm only one man, and there's a LOT of wiki to cover.

Quote by: Escemfer

it seems like the only organization besides player-maintained lists would be namespaces, which appears to involve changing the title of each page?



Not in the slightest! You just need MORE, shorter lists. Such as the "Contestants list" link leading to a page which features a few more links of categories, such as it going like:

--Active Characters--
[Links to each letter, which then feature all of the characters which pages start with that letter]

--Inactive/Deleted characters--
[Links to each letter, which then feature all of the characters which pages start with that letter]

This could be easily edited, and do absolutely nothing to namespaces or URL links!


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 03:58 AM
By: Collin-Vee

Content:

I referred to how the contestants list could be changed, but didn't honestly show an example! Well, this is what I was referring to:

http://bit.ly/QXwMuN


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 04:22 AM
By: Escemfer

Content:

It seems like there would need to be a group of players dedicated to maintaining the Wiki, then. That could, of course, be easily arranged, if there are enough people interested in doing it!

One problem with the idea of proposing a set format is that, like I said, everyone uses the Wiki for different things. It's hard to suggest a page format that will suit everyone's needs, and even harder to enforce or maintain such a thing when anyone and everyone can edit, add, or delete pages anytime they desire, for any reason they desire. It seems to me that your suggestion of having a "page quality" system, or deleting pages that seem "unnecessary", would require more of a selected moderator group than just a volunteer group. So, how would those moderators be selected, and what standards would be enforced? I know that the regular II mod team doesn't have the time to troll through 1500 pages (with their dozens of edits, additions, and deletions every day), and I also think that organizing the Wiki is the least of CMJ's concerns, when he's worrying about 1) his living conditions, 2) bug fixes, 3) new stories, and 4) new features.

Not trying to shoot you down (if it sounds like I am), just trying to direct the conversation to how anyone could make this idea work. Having ideas is good, but having a suggestion about how those ideas can happen is even better. Big Grin

EDIT: Regarding your example page, do you intend for each letter to be its own link to another page containing alphabetized contestant bios? Or, perhaps, links to alphabetical anchors/sections in a second page containing the whole list?

I'd caution against using a method that requires more pages and more lists; for any maintenance group, and even anyone browsing the Wiki, extra pages and links lead to a lot of clutter and confusion. When you're working on user navigation and accessible design, simpler is always better. Less is more.

DOUBLE EDIT: With "less is more" in mind, you could probably put your little alphabetical index, from your example, at the top of the page, and have everything alphabetized further down on the same page. I think it would also be a good idea not to separate inactive/long-lost characters from the active ones (for multiple reasons) and you'd probably want to put Canon Characters on a separate page.

TRIPLE EDIT (I'm on a roll): I would also suggest not making an "alt character" list separate from a "main character" list, or having any form of identification of whether or not a given character is an alt. I like to think that, on a site where everyone's writing, every character is your main character, even if you have twenty of them.

QUADRUPLE EDIT: Alright, now I'm just messing with you. Big Grin


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 04:49 AM
By: Collin-Vee

Content:

Quote by: Escemfer

It seems like there would need to be a group of players dedicated to maintaining the Wiki, then. That could, of course, be easily arranged, if there are enough people interested in doing it!



Partially why I'm posting in the first place! I can easily do a few things myself, but I'm only one man!

Quote by: Escemfer

One problem with the idea of proposing a set format is that



Woah, woah. Hold it. I'm not saying to have a set format. I'm saying to corall the chaos, for the moment. Page format aside, categorization is what we should focus on at the moment. Don't force people to do what you want with THEIR pages, but I'm thinking, for the moment, that the 'official' pages should have a set format, as they are generally actual informational resources.

Quote by: Escemfer

It seems to me that your suggestion of having a "page quality" system, or deleting pages that seem "unnecessary", would require more of a selected moderator group than just a volunteer group.



Not really. Simply have the group discuss if the page has any reason to exist anymore -- Nostalgia and sentimentalism do matter here -- then contact the page owner if it's not worth keeping and ASK. If they say no, then if the information is irrelevant, edit in a warning or some sort of category that indicates as such. If they don't respond, then move it to a category of 'deleted' pages for further discussion, then possibly ACTUALLY delete it. If they're no longer around, and there is not even a small amount of reason to keep the page, then delete it. Rather simple, actually.

Quote by: Escemfer

So, how would those moderators be selected, and what standards would be enforced?



Assuming we go with moderators, a huge team isn't needed, but anyone who's shown to be helpful and has the ability to do the job, I'd think. You only need a few people for this job, and a bit of time.

Quote by: Escemfer

I know that the regular II mod team doesn't have the time to troll through 1500 pages (with their dozens of edits, additions, and deletions every day), and I also think that organizing the Wiki is the least of CMJ's concerns, when he's worrying about 1) his living conditions, 2) bug fixes, 3) new stories, and 4) new features.



Let me clarify: This is the USERS doing this, not CMJ. That's why I'm making an enquirer post, not an email Wink

Quote by: Escemfer

Not trying to shoot you down (if it sounds like I am), just trying to direct the conversation to how anyone could make this idea work. Having ideas is good, but having a suggestion about how those ideas can happen is even better. Big Grin



It doesn't feel like that at all! You're raising good points, and advancing the discussion!

Quote by: Escemfer

EDIT: Regarding your example page, do you intend for each letter to be its own link to another page containing alphabetized contestant bios? Or, perhaps, links to alphabetical anchors/sections in a second page containing the whole list?

I'd caution against using a method that requires more pages and more lists; for any maintenance group, and even anyone browsing the Wiki, extra pages and links lead to a lot of clutter and confusion. When you're working on user navigation and accessible design, simpler is always better. Less is more.

I think it would also be a good idea not to separate inactive/long-lost characters from the active ones (for multiple reasons) and you'd probably want to put Canon Characters on a separate page.

TRIPLE EDIT (I'm on a roll): I would also suggest not making an "alt character" list separate from a "main character" list, or having any form of identification of whether or not a given character is an alt. I like to think that, on a site where everyone's writing, every character is your main character, even if you have twenty of them.



For the record, I DID say that it's just the format I'm going for. Actual categories aren't going to be as jarring.

Quote by: Escemfer

QUADRUPLE EDIT: Alright, now I'm just messing with you. Big Grin



Damn you! I was already preparing the assassin!


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 05:10 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Hmm... I dislike your plan of the alphabetized list page for bios. Is the Dramatis Personae and its beautiful TOC no good?

Esc, why shouldn't we separate out people we suspect to be dead?

Also, I'm still not quite sure what "comprehensive managing of pages" would mean.

Also also, I'm more than willing to march through the wiki to delete any of the many "one three-word sentence" types of pages there are.

Also also also, maybe we should prevent duplicate pages by establishing a rule for naming pages that could be or not be plural (e.g. "Joker" vs. "Jokers"). But that is a minor point

Finally,

Quote by: Collin-Vee
I'm only one man!
Ahem.
We're only two men, ladies
Oh babies, oh, pretty babies.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 05:17 AM
By: Collin-Vee

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Hmm... I dislike your plan of the alphabetized list page for bios. Is the Dramatis Personae and its beautiful TOC no good?


It doesn't HAVE to be for the Contestants List, I was just choosing an example. Plus, it's the idea that counts.

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Also, I'm still not quite sure what "comprehensive managing of pages" would mean.


It's ambiguous purposely, as it's usually responding to things as they come up. >.>

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Also also also, maybe we should prevent duplicate pages by establishing a rule for naming pages that could be or not be plural (e.g. "Joker" vs. "Jokers"). But that is a minor point


This. Yes.

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Ahem.
We're only two men, ladies
Oh babies, oh, pretty babies.


... NO.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 12:34 PM
By: Hairy+Mary

Content:

Generally agree with everyone here. I think the most important thing is more (relevant, useful) links. For example a bio with a list of scenes that the character has been in is better than one without. Scenes that have a list of links back to the bio pages of the players involved are an improvement. Some pages could also do with tidying up (being given titles* etc.)

Like Esc, I feel fairly sure that this will never be finished. It's a mammoth project and will need constant attention to maintain. Maybe a better way to think of it is as improving the wiki here and there when you see something that needs doing. Perhaps some suggestions about adding in links on the "How to" page?

To details. I'd be against separating the character list into "current" and "inactive" as that would be changing all the time and it's not the sort of thing that's obvious from just looking at the list, you'd have to go and compare with the contestants list to see if a character hasn't been on the Island in six months (or whatever time limit seems appropriate.) What's wrong with the current list of characters?

The small one line pages, we can delete links to from the Index straight away. The a site map which gives a comprehensive listing of absolutely every page on the wiki. So we can use the Index more constructively.



*While we're on the subject - can anybody tell me why I can't add a title to this page here? All I'm trying to do is add a title "Squathole" at the top and then a link back to the index of pages relating to Squathole at the bottom. It keeps telling me that I'm adding spam. Frown


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 01:32 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Esc, why shouldn't we separate out people we suspect to be dead?

Because they might not be? People do take breaks from the Island, then come back. (Edit: Also, what HM said... it would be a neverending, difficult, pointless task that ... wait, you know what? Carry on! The list will end up abandoned, thus making the Wiki even more convoluted and confusing. See point below.)

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Also also, I'm more than willing to march through the wiki to delete any of the many "one three-word sentence" types of pages there are.

Please... anyone who's editing the Wiki, take care not to delete obscure jokes about the Island's past just because they're short pages and/or they don't happen to make sense to you! This is the Wiki of Lies -- it is not supposed to be accurate.

Quote by: Collin-Vee

It's probably one of the least-organized and difficult to use wikis I've seen in my life.

A delightful compliment to all the contributors! That's exactly what it's meant to be.

Although, of course, adding to it is always encouraged.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 05:42 PM
By: Iriana

Content:

Does the existing chaos need to be corralled, or does there just need to be a new section that is better organized, exclusively for 1) pages that new players would find useful and 2) resources that players use frequently?

I like the existing chaos, and the wiki carries a lot of history. And I agree that it's called the Wiki of Lies for a reason.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 08:34 PM
By: Collin-Vee

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Please... anyone who's editing the Wiki, take care not to delete obscure jokes about the Island's past just because they're short pages and/or they don't happen to make sense to you! This is the Wiki of Lies -- it is not supposed to be accurate.


Mhm! I'm not aiming to delete ANYTHING that's even remotely fun/obscure/confusing. I'm just looking to make the wiki more navigable, whilst POSSIBLY bring the most helpful/amusing pages to the front so they don't get buried!

Quote by: Iriana

Does the existing chaos need to be corralled, or does there just need to be a new section that is better organized, exclusively for 1) pages that new players would find useful and 2) resources that players use frequently?

I like the existing chaos, and the wiki carries a lot of history. And I agree that it's called the Wiki of Lies for a reason.


As I've stated before. It's not the content, it's the navigation that needs fixing. History need not be erased! Simply brought into a place where it can truly shine!

With regards to navigation, it's not the wiki of lies right now, it's the wiki of OHGODWHATISTHISSHIT.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 10:21 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Unfortunately, this contestant may not be on the island anymore! Feel free to read what they left behind, but bear in mind you may not get to use this information.

A petite woman in an immaculately tailored busine-

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! That's beautiful. Best lie ever!


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 10:56 PM
By: LydiaDefountain

Content:

Well some more hotlinks would be good.. I think there should be a lot more links to attack and defense.. I remember helping write those.. was fun.

But I'm with Sessine.. I think the Wiki of lies is suppose to be chaotic and deliciously lie filled. Could even use more lies even.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 11:12 PM
By: Marly

Content:

A while ago, as in ages and ages, I wrote (with her permission!) a short biography for Ada in the wiki. I wrote it a certain way, with a certain presentation in mind. Such is the nature of writing. I went to go look over it and link it to someone, to show them the thingy I did. Lo and behold, I found that this

http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=paperwork_reduction_act

had been linked in as a footnote.

A few things I don't like.

First, I had written it in a certain style, with her permission, and this footnote messed up the tone and presentation of the piece. Now, this wiki is an open-edit sort of place, and I can chill with that. I like most of the footnotes people put in, even on a character's biography sometimes. But there's usually a certain type to that. Such as the very silly, very strange, and rather open sort of biography. I'm asking for a bit of consideration and taste, not as in watch-you-mouth but does-this-add-to-it.

Which this did not. Ladies and gentlemen, that link is telling us to take our long-winded biographies and shove them out the window. (A subset point of this is "don't tell me how to write or how much. Edit your editing.")

I understand that the wiki is 78% footnote by mass. I love footnotes. I'm all for footnotes and additions, but I want them done with the consideration of improving things. Edits should improve tone and content. Not take away from it. That's the point of edits.

Second. This was unnecessary and messed with a personal player's page. It's not that it's even my page, my creation, so much as treat personal pages like this with respect. It is someone talking about something very important and personal to them. Their character. Edits and additions, cool! With respect. I will write what I want, as long as I want, and in the manner that I want. But I will not add things to a player's character bio without their permission, or if it is the sort of page that invites it.

I am not even particularly objecting to notes about characters that may not be active: it's tacky, and lacks sufficient knowledge, but it's just an annoyance. I'm sure a lot of people think I don't exist any more. We have had players go away due to medical or personal reasons, and being labeled "Inactive" is an institutional move in a community setting. Cold, dude, but understandable. Just don't tell people how to write or what they might know. Marly reads the Enquirer. That's how she knows things and learned about the Island. And, yes, I refer specifically to this:

Unfortunately, this contestant may not be on the island anymore! Feel free to read what they left behind, but bear in mind you may not get to use this information.

Marly, back when I started, sat on the failboat and read the Enquirer. She read about people and old events, like dominos being set up on the island, and Lelila's century. She read about clans and cake. She got to go wide-eyed at people and say, "you mean you're the one who did THAT" when some old vet showed up. She made mistakes and was utterly confused by AceHigh, and it made it more fun to play and read and write and puzzle this game out for myself. She used some of what I know. Not, for example, all the details of a character's past, but the visible things, or the things that would have been gossip, like That One Time We...

Most of that information was from season one, and written in a way that was not a guide. Guides should be labeled, yes. As in "This was a table compiled in season one." The page on AceHigh telling me to expect a random ruling philosophy every day? Loved it when I first read it.

So, overall? Be respectful in your edits, stick to what you know, and consider the most important rule of editing, its raison d'etre. Does it make it better. I do think most of those pages could be left alone, and an order system imposed instead, such as an index or a catalogue.

The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 11:41 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Marly

The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.

Um, yeah.

Make lists, go ahead. But don't go scribbling in someone else's bio page unless they're your mate and you're on such good terms that you know they'll just scribble right back in yours.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 11:44 PM
By: Escemfer

Content:

Quote by: Marly

http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=paperwork_reduction_act



Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell. If we're not allowed to tell others how to play pretend on the Island, I don't see why we're allowed to tell others how to write for fun on the Enquirer.


Since there was some question, these are my reasons against separating "inactive" players from "current" players, either by listing them separately in an index or by adding headings to their pages:
1) everyone has a different idea of inactive, dead, missing-in-action, never to return.
2) it adds absolutely nothing to the information on the page.

I think everyone is capable of deciding whether or not a page about someone they've never met and never see online is at all relevant to their Island experience without the aid of a header that may or may not be accurate.

Quote by: Marly

The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.


*thumbs up*


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 08 2012 @ 11:52 PM
By: LydiaDefountain

Content:

huh looking up the Ada page it is... well really rather short and that sort of footnote on that when dark's bio is huge with no such footnote.. or any footnotes.. is a bit funny to me..


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 12:20 AM
By: Collin-Vee

Content:

Quote by: Escemfer

Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell.



Er. Ah. I wrote that page. Do NOT take it seriously. At all. Sorry for messing with the pages and all, but that one specifically is completely chock full of sarcasm. You'd need to sit on it to close it, were it a briefcase, because of how full it is.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 12:37 AM
By: Marly

Content:

Quote by: Collin-Vee

Quote by: Escemfer

Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell.



Er. Ah. I wrote that page. Do NOT take it seriously. At all. Sorry for messing with the pages and all, but that one specifically is completely chock full of sarcasm. You'd need to sit on it to close it, were it a briefcase, because of how full it is.




If you need to tell me that it is sarcastic and not to take it seriously...


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 12:55 AM
By: Escemfer

Content:

Quote by: Collin-Vee

Quote by: Escemfer

Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell.



Er. Ah. I wrote that page. Do NOT take it seriously. At all. Sorry for messing with the pages and all, but that one specifically is completely chock full of sarcasm. You'd need to sit on it to close it, were it a briefcase, because of how full it is.


Tone is easily lost in translation; text doesn't offer you a way to roll your eyes or wink slyly at the reader. Some people are better at writing sarcasm than others! When you're addressing a mixed audience, it's better to reserve sarcastic comments for yourself than to aim them at your audience; it's a lot easier to say "just kidding!" when you're poking fun at yourself than when you're poking fun at something personal to everyone in your audience.

(More clearly, maybe: your comedic intent was not clear. Learn from the feedback you receive about it, or expect to continue receiving ire.)


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 02:00 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Collin-Vee
Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Ahem.
We're only two men, ladies
Oh babies, oh, pretty babies.

... NO.
Not a fan of Flight of the Conchords, I take it?

Quote by: Escemfer
Since there was some question, these are my reasons against separating "inactive" players from "current" players, either by listing them separately in an index or by adding headings to their pages:
1) everyone has a different idea of inactive, dead, missing-in-action, never to return.
2) it adds absolutely nothing to the information on the page.

1) I'm speaking "er than a doornail" levels of dead. As in "deleted". That removes all ambiguity.
2) It adds the information of whether or not the contestant is still on the island, which I find at least mildly important. But, mostly, I think the dead should be shoveled into a new category because of this:

The Dramatis Personae, or, CURRENT PLAYER CHARACTERS

This is a good place to quickly get a sense for the characters currently running around the Island and is an especially good resource for new roleplayers looking to get the lay of the land. All of the information here should be brief and easy to understand.
You're not a "CURRENT PLAYER CHARACTER" if you're dead, but I still think you should be listed somewhere.

Quote by: Escemfer
Tone is easily lost in translation; text doesn't offer you a way to roll your eyes or wink slyly at the reader.
Rolling Eyes Wink Big Grin Razz Mr. Green
Of course, the flaw in this plan is that, since I've used the emoticons I might use to show facetiousness, I can't very well use them again to show that I'm speaking facetiously.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 02:54 AM
By: Marly

Content:

FML, then let's delete the "CURRENT" part. I don't like listing people who are gone or deleted somewhere else. There's a lot of sentiment, there's a lot of coming and going, and to come back and see DED in big red letters rubber stamped across my face? Or the face of a player's character that I enjoyed? No, thank you. I don't like that.

So how's about we just have... an index.

With such mild and bland categories as Character Biographies, Clan Descriptions, Gameplay and Statistics (Useful), Game Ecology (questionable), and other such things? definitely create a place where all the useful, statistical, guide-things can be put for rookies or the curious, and another for all those lie-filled pages of glorious confusion and chaos.

The trick is to make large categories, and not specific ones. Specifics are where people get argumentative.

Yes, I hang around libraries a lot. What's it to you.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 12:24 PM
By: Iriana

Content:

Quote by: Marly

Quote by: Collin-Vee

Quote by: Escemfer

Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell.


Er. Ah. I wrote that page. Do NOT take it seriously. At all. Sorry for messing with the pages and all, but that one specifically is completely chock full of sarcasm. You'd need to sit on it to close it, were it a briefcase, because of how full it is.


If you need to tell me that it is sarcastic and not to take it seriously...


yes this

The Dramatis Personae, or, CURRENT PLAYER CHARACTERS

This is a good place to quickly get a sense for the characters currently running around the Island and is an especially good resource for new roleplayers looking to get the lay of the land. All of the information here should be brief and easy to understand.
You're not a "CURRENT PLAYER CHARACTER" if you're dead, but I still think you should be listed somewhere.

I don't think the intent of the Dramatis Personae is for new players to know who's on the Island? The most effective way of learning who's who is to actually talk to people. Do new players go and read the whole list to figure out who is who? No, they have a chat with people in NewHome at first and get to wandering around the Island. I wouldn't categorize the Dramatis Personae as a resource for new roleplayers.

Dramatis Personae is the cast of characters: everyone who has had a role in a play, everyone who appears on stage. Just because your character has died, or you've had to leave the Island for whatever reason, doesn't mean that your words or your appearance never happened. They become history--Act I of an ongoing work.

So that's why I don't think the Dramatis Personae, or really any of the Wiki's fiction content, ought to be changed. If you want a new page for Current Player Characters, as part of the New Player Resource Section, where everyone who feels like it can add their own entry, then go ahead. But in a library, there is a difference between a dictionary and a history of a city. There are reference materials and there are stories; each have their place, and each has to be managed differently. Which is why I repeat my earlier suggestion: a new, cleanly organized section for New Player Resources, and possibly another for Frequently Used Player Resources. And as for the character biographies, the roleplay archives, the clan pages--the history--we can alphabetize them, group them under a broad heading (Marly's "Clan Pages", "Character Biographies", not "Inactive Characters" etc.), link them more neatly, but let's try and leave them alone as much as possible.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 01:50 PM
By: Marly

Content:

Quote by: Iriana


I don't think the intent of the Dramatis Personae is for new players to know who's on the Island? The most effective way of learning who's who is to actually talk to people. Do new players go and read the whole list to figure out who is who? No, they have a chat with people in NewHome at first and get to wandering around the Island. I wouldn't categorize the Dramatis Personae as a resource for new roleplayers.

Dramatis Personae is the cast of characters: everyone who has had a role in a play, everyone who appears on stage. Just because your character has died, or you've had to leave the Island for whatever reason, doesn't mean that your words or your appearance never happened. They become history--Act I of an ongoing work.



It started, back in at the beginning of season one, as an index, cheatsheet, and a quick look for new rookies about what sort of characters were on the island. The Island was a LOT SMALLER then. We need an index that works, and people need to add their new pages to it, and that's not 100% fool proof, so someone needs to, ideally, check the Recently Updated against the index to make sure it's there.

Also, cart and horse order territory, but in this index? some people have done HUGE stories on multiple pages, with a table of contents page with all the links. that should be on the index, not the individual chapters


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 02:31 PM
By: Ada

Content:

Iriana, I did use the list to find out who people were when I started, actually! And I found it quite handy. That is how, initially, I found DICE. It could do with more people adding their characters to it, but I don't like the idea of removing anyone from it, nor do I like the suggested idea of a master list of characters with active/inactive/alt/npc - what's wrong with the DP as it stands for that?

Marly: wow, I had no idea that had ever happened, thanks for cleaning it up. O_o


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 03:08 PM
By: Iriana

Content:

Oh. Well! Then I apologize for making assumptions. Okay, so it could be a new player resource. But there are so many characters now that it does feel a little unwieldy to me, no matter who it's organized. Was the list significantly shorter when you first started, or has it only expanded a little?

Actually, like what Marly said, I could see it being something for new players to look and see "okay, these are the sort of characters that are running around, how do I fit in to this world/be unique from these existing characters/etc. etc." Right, that makes sense, and I didn't see it earlier.

But yeah, I--don't want the list edited or split up into active/not active or to otherwise lose any of the old stories and old characters. I wasn't around when a lot of that was written, but I love reading it. Sorry, I might be beating a dead horse here; I think we've more or less agreed that deleting things/"reducing paperwork" is a bad idea.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 03:25 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Okay, so. I've tweaked the wording of the intro to the Dramatis Personae list to reflect a little better what it actually is, and added a Wiki-appropriate* garnish of footnotes.

I hope the change makes it easier to work with. If not, well, it's a wiki....
--
* That is: too many. Wiki entries are always better with too many footnotes.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 09 2012 @ 07:52 PM
By: Ada

Content:

Iriana: It was significantly shorter, but I'd still read it at this length, I imagine. Just probably not all in one go, like I did before. Razz


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 10 2012 @ 01:30 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Iriana


But yeah, I--don't want the list edited or split up into active/not active or to otherwise lose any of the old stories and old characters.


I don't want to lose any old stories or characters either. Hmm... let me describe better what I want, using the power of Fake Tables of Contents:
The Dramatis Personae, or, (some of the) PLAYER CHARACTERS
The Cast
People
More People
Etc.
Former Contestants
People
More People
Etc.

Why do I want this? Well, it more fits my interpretation of the term "Dramatis Personae". But more importantly, I'd like to know who on the list is still on the Island without searching for them.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 10 2012 @ 02:23 AM
By: Ada

Content:

No one would ever update that, even if people did like the idea (and several in this thread have said they do not). Look at the "list of people to ask for help" (or whatever it is called) on the roleplaying guide. A good chunk of those people have been gone for ages and ages. Look at all the old articles from S1 that we leave in there.
You'd just end up having to do searches anyway.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 10 2012 @ 05:27 AM
By: Iriana

Content:

That's not something that can be done in the wiki--like Ada said, it'd be impossible to maintain. Most people don't seem to approve of having someone moderate that sort of list by arbitrarily deciding who counts as a "former" contestant. If anything, it'd need to be an extension of the Contestants List that exists in the game (which could do with a bit of rejiggering too). So a game-end thing, not a player-updated-wiki thing.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 10 2012 @ 04:42 PM
By: Marly

Content:


Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Iriana


But yeah, I--don't want the list edited or split up into active/not active or to otherwise lose any of the old stories and old characters.


I don't want to lose any old stories or characters either. Hmm... let me describe better what I want, using the power of Fake Tables of Contents:
The Dramatis Personae, or, (some of the) PLAYER CHARACTERS
The Cast
People
More People
Etc.
Former Contestants
People
More People
Etc.

Why do I want this? Well, it more fits my interpretation of the term "Dramatis Personae". But more importantly, I'd like to know who on the list is still on the Island without searching for them.




We don't always know who is a "former contestant" and who's someone who just has to go away for a while while they're in hospital or trying to get a new job and a new house all the way across the country or trying to climb out of a pit full of slobbering licky-monsters. Or going through a really focused, intense school year. Former is something very permanent. If I were in hospital, I'd really hate coming back and seeing my name on the inactive list.

Some people don't show up on the list after a bit because of the auto-delete, but others have the hyper ring. The ones who get deleted sometimes create the same character and come back. In short AAUGH WE DUNNO.

I can see instances where looking up people can be tedious, but... ehn. A lot of things are. It's at least got a search function on the contestant list so you don't have to sing the alphabet song while you're looking for them. For the odd person, okay. Are you trying to look up large numbers of people? Perhaps it might be time to look at tweaking the Contestant List to have a feature for listing people who haven't been online in X days/months such as a Last On sort feature.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 10 2012 @ 05:23 PM
By: Hairy+Mary

Content:

Quote by: Marly


We don't always know who is a "former contestant" and who's someone who just has to go away for a while while they're in hospital or trying to get a new job and a new house all the way across the country or trying to climb out of a pit full of slobbering licky-monsters. Or going through a really focused, intense school year. Former is something very permanent. If I were in hospital, I'd really hate coming back and seeing my name on the inactive list.



Well yes...but all you have to do is move your name back on to the active contestant list again. If you've been otherwise engaged, then you are effectively inactive aren't you? The big problem would be keeping it up to date.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 11 2012 @ 01:40 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Ideally, people who cared enough to put their character on the list would also care enough to move their character around on the list. If not, then it would come down to either Wiki Magic(tm) or the League of Laughably Wiki-Inclined People that Collin was discussing.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 11 2012 @ 01:45 AM
By: Harris

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Ideally, people who cared enough to put their character on the list would also care enough to move their character around on the list. If not, then it would come down to either Wiki Magic(tm) or the League of Laughably Wiki-Inclined People that Collin was discussing.



This is still with the assumption that is at all necessary. And that we know why you want this list.

Why the heck do you want it?


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 11 2012 @ 11:35 PM
By: Harris

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Really, Collin just had it as one of the things he'd organize by, and, while I disliked the other ones, (the Alt category seemed like none of your business and the NPC category seemed misfit to Dramatis Personae) knowing which characters are still on the Island seems mildly nifty. It doesn't seems like that big of a thing to me, really, just knowing which information is still relevant. It was also on the page in LARGE UPPERCASE LETTERS that only current characters should be on the list, but I suppose we can forget that now.



Ahhh. Gotcha! I still disagree with the idea that the Bios of folk who have left are irrelevant, but really, `ithat`i's irrelevant anyway.

See, I think the problem that Collin (and anyone else who wanted to attempt the WHOLE DAMN THING) had in organizing the wiki wasn't that we need one thing over the other- it was trying to tackle the, well, whole thing. Taking things piece by piece seems wiser. Journey of a thousand miles and all that.

Y'know what? I'm gonna go alphabetize the Scene Index!


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 11 2012 @ 02:59 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Really, Collin just had it as one of the things he'd organize by, and, while I disliked the other ones, (the Alt category seemed like none of your business and the NPC category seemed misfit to Dramatis Personae) knowing which characters are still on the Island seems mildly nifty. It doesn't seems like that big of a thing to me, really, just knowing which information is still relevant. It was also on the page in LARGE UPPERCASE LETTERS that only current characters should be on the list, but I suppose we can forget that now.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 17 2012 @ 05:09 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Quote by: Hairy+Mary


*While we're on the subject - can anybody tell me why I can't add a title to this page here? All I'm trying to do is add a title "Squathole" at the top and then a link back to the index of pages relating to Squathole at the bottom. It keeps telling me that I'm adding spam. Frown


After delving through the page, I've found the spam filter was tripped as a result of the word "fetish" printed near the bottom of the page. This leads me to believe that the words was added before the spam filter. Anyhow, that's fixed now.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 17 2012 @ 10:28 PM
By: Hairy+Mary

Content:

Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Hairy+Mary


*While we're on the subject - can anybody tell me why I can't add a title to this page here? All I'm trying to do is add a title "Squathole" at the top and then a link back to the index of pages relating to Squathole at the bottom. It keeps telling me that I'm adding spam. Frown


After delving through the page, I've found the spam filter was tripped as a result of the word "fetish" printed near the bottom of the page. This leads me to believe that the words was added before the spam filter. Anyhow, that's fixed now.



Cheers - nice one.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: October 25 2012 @ 09:47 PM
By: Harris

Content:

The Clans page is alphabetized and fully updated, I have created an Island history link page for stuff that is NOT quests or Museum information (i.e., The advent of Titans, the beginning of Onslaught), and added a link to it to the Wiki start page.

History Mister Stern Doesn't Know

All inspiration for that one came from returning Contestant Jean-Serge!

Holy balls, we have a lot of clans!


Re: "Persons of Interest"

Posted on: November 05 2012 @ 09:59 AM
By: Harris

Content:

I don't see how a page that is a renamed copy of the "Dramatis Personae" page helps. Lay it out for me?


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: November 05 2012 @ 06:00 PM
By: Harris

Content:

Right- forgot that the "Re:" line doesn't show up in the posts.

My above post refers to Full metal Lion's "persons of interest" page he's just made.

Seriously, dude- whaaaa...?


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: November 06 2012 @ 03:50 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Well, it goes back to around the time of the original thread, when CID was creating his character page. He made a Dramatis Personae Namespace and then put his page in that, like he suggested. That irked me, because I thought Dramatis Personae should be just a short list, so I moved it to a new Namespace I called "Persons of Interest". This Namespace, however had no start page, making the link to the start page of the Namespace in the upper-left corner all ugly and red. So I made a start page for the Persons of Interest Namespace that listed the contents of said Namespace. And that's how it got to how it is now, as far as I remember.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: December 15 2012 @ 10:24 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Poking around the wiki, we have the page for Snippets, but then that page has a sub-section for Quotes. The only concrete difference between the two sections appears to be format, and that quotes can only have one line. What is the rationale behind this?


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: December 15 2012 @ 10:33 PM
By: Escemfer

Content:

Quotes would presumably be, well, quotes: verbal remarks or dialogue made by one person. Snippets, one could then extrapolate, would consist of short exchanges between one or more people, or bits of narrative.

A quote:
"You wouldn't believe how many ladies I've picked up this way." -- Tim

A snippet:
Tim tries to make a dramatic exit, but stumbles over his own feet and falls flat on his face.
Jim says, "Man, that was super smooth."
Tim grimaces into the floorboards. "You wouldn't believe how many ladies I've picked up this way."

--However, I could be putting too much thought into this. We all know how well-thought-out the Wiki is.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: December 15 2012 @ 10:42 PM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Mmm... I feel bit silly now, because you're pretty exactly right and I realized that about five minutes after asking.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: January 12 2013 @ 03:36 AM
By: Full+Metal+Lion

Content:

Hmm... any objections to giving medals their own Namespace, perhaps divided into four sub-Namespaces, besides the effort required?


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: January 12 2013 @ 05:33 AM
By: Escemfer

Content:

Nmespace would be okay, but sub-Namespaces sounds like overkill. There really aren't that many badges.

In fact, why do the badges need their own pages anyway? The descriptions are all very short. Pile them into one page, call it good.


Re: The Wiki

Posted on: January 12 2013 @ 05:53 AM
By: Escemfer

Content:

I just piled the descriptions all into one page. Way cleaner than a million links to tiny one-line pages.


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