Well, a few days ago, I spent a few hours going through every page from A-G, figuring out which stories/features didn't relate to the current Season, and which Contestants were no longer around, and I have to say only one thing about the wiki.
HNNNNNNGH.
It's probably one of the least-organized and difficult to use wikis I've seen in my life. It's taking every fiber of my being to leave people's creative pages alone and NOT fix them to be easier to move around in. Many pages have been half-written and abandoned, some have several inside jokes that would throw even ME off if I hadn't crawled the whole thing and asked around a bout them.
I'm not saying the Wiki's bad, but it needs an overhaul. Categorization, organization, page format, they all need to be fixed for the Wiki to be a resource as opposed to this giant confusing thing that people sometimes stick user bios on. We don't need to change content (though many pages SHOULD be deleted for various reasons), but a structure of some kind, so that users new and old can USE the damn thing, and enjoy doing so, as opposed to using a few pages here and there because they're useful, and ignoring the rest.
I'm not 100% sure where I'm going with this thread, but it needs to be brought to attention, and something needs to be done.
I'm glad you made this thread because in the last one I declared that no one should work together, so, for the sake of my pride, I can't. Speaking of the old thread, though, are you proposing the shuffling of namespaces? And, while we're at it, what's so bad about the wiki in the first place? (And I'm not saying I like Chaos and Lies in a roundabout way, I really want to know how it could be better.)
P.S. How many wiki pages are there, anyway?
P.S.S. As long as we're talking about the Wiki, maybe CMJ will see this list of semi-necessary features:
So, what needs to be done and who's gunna do it?
Actually, Collin-Vee, there are several links on the Wiki of Lies' main page to lists of pertinent or important information. These lists could easily be altered by any industrious player without having to alter or delete either namespaces or other people's pages. 
If you think that the information is hard to find, why don't you correct some of those link pages?
Someone who wants a good, inclusive index of the wiki for ease of browsing should look on the main page as a starting point. For the most part, it seems like our wiki is used for very specific things, like a tutorial here, a character biography there, 20 in-jokes sprinkled around... rather than a comprehensive and impartial index like wikis on other sites might be. And hey, if that's the way most players want to use it... well, I don't see the problem. Like I said, there are easy-to-browse lists and indexes on the wiki in easy-to-find places, and if those pages are out of date, there's no reason why you couldn't run in and fix it.
EDIT: from my 30 seconds of research, it seems like the only organization besides player-maintained lists would be namespaces, which appears to involve changing the title of each page? Which would, actually, make every single link to that page elsewhere on the wiki invalid. If I'm wrong, and there is another, easier, cleaner way to reorganize, do correct me! I probably wouldn't be able to keep myself from meticulously filing everything like some kind of Ebenezer.
are you proposing the shuffling of namespaces?
And, while we're at it, what's so bad about the wiki in the first place? (And I'm not saying I like Chaos and Lies in a roundabout way, I really want to know how it could be better.)
P.S. How many wiki pages are there, anyway?
So, what needs to be done and who's gunna do it?
Actually, Collin-Vee, there are several links on the Wiki of Lies' main page to lists of pertinent or important information. These lists could easily be altered by any industrious player without having to alter or delete either namespaces or other people's pages. If you think that the information is hard to find, why don't you correct some of those link pages?
Someone who wants a good, inclusive index of the wiki for ease of browsing should look on the main page as a starting point.
For the most part, it seems like our wiki is used for very specific things, like a tutorial here, a character biography there, 20 in-jokes sprinkled around... rather than a comprehensive and impartial index like wikis on other sites might be.
And hey, if that's the way most players want to use it... well, I don't see the problem. Like I said, there are easy-to-browse lists and indexes on the wiki in easy-to-find places, and if those pages are out of date, there's no reason why you couldn't run in and fix it.
it seems like the only organization besides player-maintained lists would be namespaces, which appears to involve changing the title of each page?
I referred to how the contestants list could be changed, but didn't honestly show an example! Well, this is what I was referring to:
http://bit.ly/QXwMuN
It seems like there would need to be a group of players dedicated to maintaining the Wiki, then. That could, of course, be easily arranged, if there are enough people interested in doing it!
One problem with the idea of proposing a set format is that, like I said, everyone uses the Wiki for different things. It's hard to suggest a page format that will suit everyone's needs, and even harder to enforce or maintain such a thing when anyone and everyone can edit, add, or delete pages anytime they desire, for any reason they desire. It seems to me that your suggestion of having a "page quality" system, or deleting pages that seem "unnecessary", would require more of a selected moderator group than just a volunteer group. So, how would those moderators be selected, and what standards would be enforced? I know that the regular II mod team doesn't have the time to troll through 1500 pages (with their dozens of edits, additions, and deletions every day), and I also think that organizing the Wiki is the least of CMJ's concerns, when he's worrying about 1) his living conditions, 2) bug fixes, 3) new stories, and 4) new features.
Not trying to shoot you down (if it sounds like I am), just trying to direct the conversation to how anyone could make this idea work. Having ideas is good, but having a suggestion about how those ideas can happen is even better.
EDIT: Regarding your example page, do you intend for each letter to be its own link to another page containing alphabetized contestant bios? Or, perhaps, links to alphabetical anchors/sections in a second page containing the whole list?
I'd caution against using a method that requires more pages and more lists; for any maintenance group, and even anyone browsing the Wiki, extra pages and links lead to a lot of clutter and confusion. When you're working on user navigation and accessible design, simpler is always better. Less is more.
DOUBLE EDIT: With "less is more" in mind, you could probably put your little alphabetical index, from your example, at the top of the page, and have everything alphabetized further down on the same page. I think it would also be a good idea not to separate inactive/long-lost characters from the active ones (for multiple reasons) and you'd probably want to put Canon Characters on a separate page.
TRIPLE EDIT (I'm on a roll): I would also suggest not making an "alt character" list separate from a "main character" list, or having any form of identification of whether or not a given character is an alt. I like to think that, on a site where everyone's writing, every character is your main character, even if you have twenty of them.
QUADRUPLE EDIT: Alright, now I'm just messing with you.
It seems like there would need to be a group of players dedicated to maintaining the Wiki, then. That could, of course, be easily arranged, if there are enough people interested in doing it!
One problem with the idea of proposing a set format is that
It seems to me that your suggestion of having a "page quality" system, or deleting pages that seem "unnecessary", would require more of a selected moderator group than just a volunteer group.
So, how would those moderators be selected, and what standards would be enforced?
I know that the regular II mod team doesn't have the time to troll through 1500 pages (with their dozens of edits, additions, and deletions every day), and I also think that organizing the Wiki is the least of CMJ's concerns, when he's worrying about 1) his living conditions, 2) bug fixes, 3) new stories, and 4) new features.
Not trying to shoot you down (if it sounds like I am), just trying to direct the conversation to how anyone could make this idea work. Having ideas is good, but having a suggestion about how those ideas can happen is even better.
EDIT: Regarding your example page, do you intend for each letter to be its own link to another page containing alphabetized contestant bios? Or, perhaps, links to alphabetical anchors/sections in a second page containing the whole list?
I'd caution against using a method that requires more pages and more lists; for any maintenance group, and even anyone browsing the Wiki, extra pages and links lead to a lot of clutter and confusion. When you're working on user navigation and accessible design, simpler is always better. Less is more.
I think it would also be a good idea not to separate inactive/long-lost characters from the active ones (for multiple reasons) and you'd probably want to put Canon Characters on a separate page.
TRIPLE EDIT (I'm on a roll): I would also suggest not making an "alt character" list separate from a "main character" list, or having any form of identification of whether or not a given character is an alt. I like to think that, on a site where everyone's writing, every character is your main character, even if you have twenty of them.
QUADRUPLE EDIT: Alright, now I'm just messing with you.
Hmm... I dislike your plan of the alphabetized list page for bios. Is the Dramatis Personae and its beautiful TOC no good?
Esc, why shouldn't we separate out people we suspect to be dead?
Also, I'm still not quite sure what "comprehensive managing of pages" would mean.
Also also, I'm more than willing to march through the wiki to delete any of the many "one three-word sentence" types of pages there are.
Also also also, maybe we should prevent duplicate pages by establishing a rule for naming pages that could be or not be plural (e.g. "Joker" vs. "Jokers"). But that is a minor point
Finally,
Hmm... I dislike your plan of the alphabetized list page for bios. Is the Dramatis Personae and its beautiful TOC no good?
Also, I'm still not quite sure what "comprehensive managing of pages" would mean.
Also also also, maybe we should prevent duplicate pages by establishing a rule for naming pages that could be or not be plural (e.g. "Joker" vs. "Jokers"). But that is a minor point
Ahem.
We're only two men, ladies
Oh babies, oh, pretty babies.
Generally agree with everyone here. I think the most important thing is more (relevant, useful) links. For example a bio with a list of scenes that the character has been in is better than one without. Scenes that have a list of links back to the bio pages of the players involved are an improvement. Some pages could also do with tidying up (being given titles* etc.)
Like Esc, I feel fairly sure that this will never be finished. It's a mammoth project and will need constant attention to maintain. Maybe a better way to think of it is as improving the wiki here and there when you see something that needs doing. Perhaps some suggestions about adding in links on the "How to" page?
To details. I'd be against separating the character list into "current" and "inactive" as that would be changing all the time and it's not the sort of thing that's obvious from just looking at the list, you'd have to go and compare with the contestants list to see if a character hasn't been on the Island in six months (or whatever time limit seems appropriate.) What's wrong with the current list of characters?
The small one line pages, we can delete links to from the Index straight away. The a site map which gives a comprehensive listing of absolutely every page on the wiki. So we can use the Index more constructively.
*While we're on the subject - can anybody tell me why I can't add a title to this page here? All I'm trying to do is add a title "Squathole" at the top and then a link back to the index of pages relating to Squathole at the bottom. It keeps telling me that I'm adding spam. 
Esc, why shouldn't we separate out people we suspect to be dead?
Also also, I'm more than willing to march through the wiki to delete any of the many "one three-word sentence" types of pages there are.
It's probably one of the least-organized and difficult to use wikis I've seen in my life.
Does the existing chaos need to be corralled, or does there just need to be a new section that is better organized, exclusively for 1) pages that new players would find useful and 2) resources that players use frequently?
I like the existing chaos, and the wiki carries a lot of history. And I agree that it's called the Wiki of Lies for a reason.
Does the existing chaos need to be corralled, or does there just need to be a new section that is better organized, exclusively for 1) pages that new players would find useful and 2) resources that players use frequently?
I like the existing chaos, and the wiki carries a lot of history. And I agree that it's called the Wiki of Lies for a reason.
Well some more hotlinks would be good.. I think there should be a lot more links to attack and defense.. I remember helping write those.. was fun.
But I'm with Sessine.. I think the Wiki of lies is suppose to be chaotic and deliciously lie filled. Could even use more lies even.
A while ago, as in ages and ages, I wrote (with her permission!) a short biography for Ada in the wiki. I wrote it a certain way, with a certain presentation in mind. Such is the nature of writing. I went to go look over it and link it to someone, to show them the thingy I did. Lo and behold, I found that this
http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=paperwork_reduction_act
had been linked in as a footnote.
A few things I don't like.
First, I had written it in a certain style, with her permission, and this footnote messed up the tone and presentation of the piece. Now, this wiki is an open-edit sort of place, and I can chill with that. I like most of the footnotes people put in, even on a character's biography sometimes. But there's usually a certain type to that. Such as the very silly, very strange, and rather open sort of biography. I'm asking for a bit of consideration and taste, not as in watch-you-mouth but does-this-add-to-it.
Which this did not. Ladies and gentlemen, that link is telling us to take our long-winded biographies and shove them out the window. (A subset point of this is "don't tell me how to write or how much. Edit your editing.")
I understand that the wiki is 78% footnote by mass. I love footnotes. I'm all for footnotes and additions, but I want them done with the consideration of improving things. Edits should improve tone and content. Not take away from it. That's the point of edits.
Second. This was unnecessary and messed with a personal player's page. It's not that it's even my page, my creation, so much as treat personal pages like this with respect. It is someone talking about something very important and personal to them. Their character. Edits and additions, cool! With respect. I will write what I want, as long as I want, and in the manner that I want. But I will not add things to a player's character bio without their permission, or if it is the sort of page that invites it.
I am not even particularly objecting to notes about characters that may not be active: it's tacky, and lacks sufficient knowledge, but it's just an annoyance. I'm sure a lot of people think I don't exist any more. We have had players go away due to medical or personal reasons, and being labeled "Inactive" is an institutional move in a community setting. Cold, dude, but understandable. Just don't tell people how to write or what they might know. Marly reads the Enquirer. That's how she knows things and learned about the Island. And, yes, I refer specifically to this:
Unfortunately, this contestant may not be on the island anymore! Feel free to read what they left behind, but bear in mind you may not get to use this information.
Marly, back when I started, sat on the failboat and read the Enquirer. She read about people and old events, like dominos being set up on the island, and Lelila's century. She read about clans and cake. She got to go wide-eyed at people and say, "you mean you're the one who did THAT" when some old vet showed up. She made mistakes and was utterly confused by AceHigh, and it made it more fun to play and read and write and puzzle this game out for myself. She used some of what I know. Not, for example, all the details of a character's past, but the visible things, or the things that would have been gossip, like That One Time We...
Most of that information was from season one, and written in a way that was not a guide. Guides should be labeled, yes. As in "This was a table compiled in season one." The page on AceHigh telling me to expect a random ruling philosophy every day? Loved it when I first read it.
So, overall? Be respectful in your edits, stick to what you know, and consider the most important rule of editing, its raison d'etre. Does it make it better. I do think most of those pages could be left alone, and an order system imposed instead, such as an index or a catalogue.
The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.
The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.
http://enquirer.improbableisland.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=paperwork_reduction_act
The wiki needs a reference librarian, not a publishing editor.
huh looking up the Ada page it is... well really rather short and that sort of footnote on that when dark's bio is huge with no such footnote.. or any footnotes.. is a bit funny to me..
Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell.
Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell.
Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell.
Ahem.
We're only two men, ladies
Oh babies, oh, pretty babies.
FML, then let's delete the "CURRENT" part. I don't like listing people who are gone or deleted somewhere else. There's a lot of sentiment, there's a lot of coming and going, and to come back and see DED in big red letters rubber stamped across my face? Or the face of a player's character that I enjoyed? No, thank you. I don't like that.
So how's about we just have... an index.
With such mild and bland categories as Character Biographies, Clan Descriptions, Gameplay and Statistics (Useful), Game Ecology (questionable), and other such things? definitely create a place where all the useful, statistical, guide-things can be put for rookies or the curious, and another for all those lie-filled pages of glorious confusion and chaos.
The trick is to make large categories, and not specific ones. Specifics are where people get argumentative.
Yes, I hang around libraries a lot. What's it to you.
Um. Yes. I, ah, kind of have to agree that... "No long files on people when they aren't explicitly needed. That includes you and your extended bio. Find a better idea!"... is, well, rude as hell.
I don't think the intent of the Dramatis Personae is for new players to know who's on the Island? The most effective way of learning who's who is to actually talk to people. Do new players go and read the whole list to figure out who is who? No, they have a chat with people in NewHome at first and get to wandering around the Island. I wouldn't categorize the Dramatis Personae as a resource for new roleplayers.
Dramatis Personae is the cast of characters: everyone who has had a role in a play, everyone who appears on stage. Just because your character has died, or you've had to leave the Island for whatever reason, doesn't mean that your words or your appearance never happened. They become history--Act I of an ongoing work.
Iriana, I did use the list to find out who people were when I started, actually! And I found it quite handy. That is how, initially, I found DICE. It could do with more people adding their characters to it, but I don't like the idea of removing anyone from it, nor do I like the suggested idea of a master list of characters with active/inactive/alt/npc - what's wrong with the DP as it stands for that?
Marly: wow, I had no idea that had ever happened, thanks for cleaning it up. O_o
Oh. Well! Then I apologize for making assumptions. Okay, so it could be a new player resource. But there are so many characters now that it does feel a little unwieldy to me, no matter who it's organized. Was the list significantly shorter when you first started, or has it only expanded a little?
Actually, like what Marly said, I could see it being something for new players to look and see "okay, these are the sort of characters that are running around, how do I fit in to this world/be unique from these existing characters/etc. etc." Right, that makes sense, and I didn't see it earlier.
But yeah, I--don't want the list edited or split up into active/not active or to otherwise lose any of the old stories and old characters. I wasn't around when a lot of that was written, but I love reading it. Sorry, I might be beating a dead horse here; I think we've more or less agreed that deleting things/"reducing paperwork" is a bad idea.
Okay, so. I've tweaked the wording of the intro to the Dramatis Personae list to reflect a little better what it actually is, and added a Wiki-appropriate* garnish of footnotes.
I hope the change makes it easier to work with. If not, well, it's a wiki....
--
* That is: too many. Wiki entries are always better with too many footnotes.
Iriana: It was significantly shorter, but I'd still read it at this length, I imagine. Just probably not all in one go, like I did before.
But yeah, I--don't want the list edited or split up into active/not active or to otherwise lose any of the old stories and old characters.
No one would ever update that, even if people did like the idea (and several in this thread have said they do not). Look at the "list of people to ask for help" (or whatever it is called) on the roleplaying guide. A good chunk of those people have been gone for ages and ages. Look at all the old articles from S1 that we leave in there.
You'd just end up having to do searches anyway.
That's not something that can be done in the wiki--like Ada said, it'd be impossible to maintain. Most people don't seem to approve of having someone moderate that sort of list by arbitrarily deciding who counts as a "former" contestant. If anything, it'd need to be an extension of the Contestants List that exists in the game (which could do with a bit of rejiggering too). So a game-end thing, not a player-updated-wiki thing.
But yeah, I--don't want the list edited or split up into active/not active or to otherwise lose any of the old stories and old characters.
We don't always know who is a "former contestant" and who's someone who just has to go away for a while while they're in hospital or trying to get a new job and a new house all the way across the country or trying to climb out of a pit full of slobbering licky-monsters. Or going through a really focused, intense school year. Former is something very permanent. If I were in hospital, I'd really hate coming back and seeing my name on the inactive list.
Ideally, people who cared enough to put their character on the list would also care enough to move their character around on the list. If not, then it would come down to either Wiki Magic(tm) or the League of Laughably Wiki-Inclined People that Collin was discussing.
Ideally, people who cared enough to put their character on the list would also care enough to move their character around on the list. If not, then it would come down to either Wiki Magic(tm) or the League of Laughably Wiki-Inclined People that Collin was discussing.
Really, Collin just had it as one of the things he'd organize by, and, while I disliked the other ones, (the Alt category seemed like none of your business and the NPC category seemed misfit to Dramatis Personae) knowing which characters are still on the Island seems mildly nifty. It doesn't seems like that big of a thing to me, really, just knowing which information is still relevant. It was also on the page in LARGE UPPERCASE LETTERS that only current characters should be on the list, but I suppose we can forget that now.
Really, Collin just had it as one of the things he'd organize by, and, while I disliked the other ones, (the Alt category seemed like none of your business and the NPC category seemed misfit to Dramatis Personae) knowing which characters are still on the Island seems mildly nifty. It doesn't seems like that big of a thing to me, really, just knowing which information is still relevant. It was also on the page in LARGE UPPERCASE LETTERS that only current characters should be on the list, but I suppose we can forget that now.
*While we're on the subject - can anybody tell me why I can't add a title to this page here? All I'm trying to do is add a title "Squathole" at the top and then a link back to the index of pages relating to Squathole at the bottom. It keeps telling me that I'm adding spam.
*While we're on the subject - can anybody tell me why I can't add a title to this page here? All I'm trying to do is add a title "Squathole" at the top and then a link back to the index of pages relating to Squathole at the bottom. It keeps telling me that I'm adding spam.
The Clans page is alphabetized and fully updated, I have created an Island history link page for stuff that is NOT quests or Museum information (i.e., The advent of Titans, the beginning of Onslaught), and added a link to it to the Wiki start page.
History Mister Stern Doesn't Know
All inspiration for that one came from returning Contestant Jean-Serge!
Holy balls, we have a lot of clans!
I don't see how a page that is a renamed copy of the "Dramatis Personae" page helps. Lay it out for me?
Right- forgot that the "Re:" line doesn't show up in the posts.
My above post refers to Full metal Lion's "persons of interest" page he's just made.
Seriously, dude- whaaaa...?
Well, it goes back to around the time of the original thread, when CID was creating his character page. He made a Dramatis Personae Namespace and then put his page in that, like he suggested. That irked me, because I thought Dramatis Personae should be just a short list, so I moved it to a new Namespace I called "Persons of Interest". This Namespace, however had no start page, making the link to the start page of the Namespace in the upper-left corner all ugly and red. So I made a start page for the Persons of Interest Namespace that listed the contents of said Namespace. And that's how it got to how it is now, as far as I remember.
Poking around the wiki, we have the page for Snippets, but then that page has a sub-section for Quotes. The only concrete difference between the two sections appears to be format, and that quotes can only have one line. What is the rationale behind this?
Quotes would presumably be, well, quotes: verbal remarks or dialogue made by one person. Snippets, one could then extrapolate, would consist of short exchanges between one or more people, or bits of narrative.
A quote:
"You wouldn't believe how many ladies I've picked up this way." -- Tim
A snippet:
Tim tries to make a dramatic exit, but stumbles over his own feet and falls flat on his face.
Jim says, "Man, that was super smooth."
Tim grimaces into the floorboards. "You wouldn't believe how many ladies I've picked up this way."
--However, I could be putting too much thought into this. We all know how well-thought-out the Wiki is.
Mmm... I feel bit silly now, because you're pretty exactly right and I realized that about five minutes after asking.
Hmm... any objections to giving medals their own Namespace, perhaps divided into four sub-Namespaces, besides the effort required?
Nmespace would be okay, but sub-Namespaces sounds like overkill. There really aren't that many badges.
In fact, why do the badges need their own pages anyway? The descriptions are all very short. Pile them into one page, call it good.
I just piled the descriptions all into one page. Way cleaner than a million links to tiny one-line pages.
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