Subject: The Giant Tattoo Mutant, Mighty Magpie, Experience, and You.

Posted on: May 10 2013 @ 01:18 AM
By: Clueless

Content:

You are merrily strolling into the jungle to slaughter the wonderful abominations that have been placed there for your convenience. Suddenly you are beset upon by a great beast, many who faced it before you have fallen to its slavering jowls! The Giant Tattoo Mutant!

After a hard fight the beast has been beaten into submission, sure to rise the moment your back is turned but subdued for now. For this feat of prowess you are awarded 70 exp!


....

Seventy?

What the hell is that nonsense?!

This, my friends, is how the story of an encounter with the Giant Tattoo Mutant or Mighty Magpie ends when you find one very early into a DK, experience wise.

I am not exactly sure on the number, I will be honest, but I did one time run into one of the two in my very first jungle fight after subjugating the Drive. It's not quite as bad if you're, say, at level three or so, or even halfway to level one, however it is always absolutely wretched compared to how much exp you get later on in a run.

I'm damn near positive that every time I have beaten one of the two, past level five (for instance), it has been enough exp for me to go truant or to go into the dojo right away, with a few reasonable exceptions being fighting them right after a boat trip right after beating a dojo master.

The reason why they are so useful later, but disappointing early on? How the reward is calculated. Due to the rarity of them showing their ugly mugs I have little solid data on exactly how much exp is given at very low current exp values. However I have spent a few days gathering data on them at higher levels, and I can make a very close approximation as to why you get the reward you do for killing them with very little exp to start with.

The Giant Tattoo Mutant gives approximately 24% of your current exp, the Mighty Magpie gives approximately 36%, tested several times. Dan Quest minions give 8%, and the boss gives 10%. I hunted them down to see if they followed the same pattern, but they're not really my focus here, so I'll really say no more about them.

The reason I say 'approximately' is because I believe there is a very tiny deviation. I believe that it is, in reality, something like x% of your exp plus some very small number, like seventy. This way you get some exp even if you kill one of these enemies with zero exp, or get more than just the % when you have some other very low value for your current exp.

What I propose is that killing the GTM/MM (and maybe the DQMs as well) should always result in a reward of equal and relative value. It should not be based on your current exp. That is why they are so useless at lv1, and disappointing at lv2/3. It also means that it is relatively 'easy' I'm insane, it was easy to acquire an exp of over one billion. More on that later. Back to the exp rewards. So, instead of basing the reward on current exp, how about it is based on the exp difference between what is required between levels? If, for example, you need 2,000 exp for level 2, and 5,000 exp for level 3, and a reward was 75% of what is needed, you would get 2250 exp, 75% of 3,000 exp, the difference between the two levels. Regardless of if you are truant to the nine hells or just got finished with a never-ending fail-cascade of boating that left you with a mere 90xp to your name.

In this way even if the GTM/MM is one of your first fights it is still very valuable to you, and not an utter waste as it is now. This situation is exacerbated by how the exp requirement for level 2 ramps up. No other level is as painful as level one once you've started to amass a significant number of DKs For those unfamiliar the exp needed to reach level 2 is 100+(#DKs x 25). There is another thread about that somewhere but I looked through the last thirty pages and couldn't find it, so back to the GTM/MM, who will, if changed like this, also retain their value through later levels.. And it does not make it so relatively simple to accrue over a billion exp, Why do I bring up a billion? A fairytale and impossible number? No. As part of my testing I have, at this time, 1,119,185,291 exp. Ridiculous. Ludicrous! And all thanks to the GTM/MM and DQMs. No normal jungle monster even puts the slightest scratch in my exp value, unless they manage to boat me. That really hurts. The MM on the other hand would give me approx 402,906,704 exp in return if I were to fight it now.

Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe? It works just the same for experience. Every time you kill one of them the reward for killing them again increases substantially.

It was a bit of a pain to amass that exp, but not so much of one that I couldn't decide that for the hell of it I want to have a trillion exp. It would take me, in Mighty Magpie fights alone, fifteen victories to reach that goal. The beasts are rare indeed, but I am quite capable of grinding out the time and fights to get them. The point, however, is not that I have an ungodly amount of exp, more than anyone has any reason trying to get for any sane reason, but instead that maybe if this is possible, then something needs to be changed? If I was stuck receiving a % of the exp needed between levels, it'd take me.. Well.. I'm not crunching the numbers because it isn't worth the time, but thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands of GTM/MM fights to even reach one billion exp from a reasonable starting point.

As for what values of exp differential between levels should be awarded? As of now, at most levels, a GTM/MM fight will enable you to dojo or push you truant enough to be hunted down if you were only slightly truant before. They're rare beasts, and the reward is well worth it. I like this. They're a blessing, except when they beat you. Very bad for your exp then. Since the MM currently gives more exp than the GTM, by a substantial amount, my proposed rewards will be in line with the MM's existing superiority.

GTM, 70% of the exp between your current level's required exp and that of the next level.
MM, 80% of the exp between your current level's required exp and that of the next level.
DanQuest Minion, 15%, and the Boss 20%. Honestly I think the Boss should be a bit more rewarding in terms of exp, especially over the minions given the whole saving reality thing, but that is another matter entirely.

Alright, that's what I have to say.

Questions? Comments? Straightjackets?



Replies:

Re: The Giant Tattoo Mutant, Mighty Magpie, Experience, and You.

Posted on: May 10 2013 @ 01:32 AM
By: Matthew

Content:

Yeah. Once, I got a tattoo mutant only one fight in on a DK, and it gave me a whopping, like, 17 experience.

Not only is that kinda bullshit for how rare they are, but the way it's calculated makes it pretty unbalanced towards the end of your DK. For example, once, I found a tattoo mutant when I was level 12 and it rocketed me up to (what would have been) 16.

Having it be worth one level would be easiest and I think pretty balanced for how uncommon they are.


Re: The Giant Tattoo Mutant, Mighty Magpie, Experience, and You.

Posted on: May 10 2013 @ 01:34 AM
By: lowkey

Content:

Just to throw in a bit more data, the rewards for GTM and MM actually do scale down at higher levels.

GTM only gives 24% of current exp to level 5, then it drops to 20%. At 10, it drops to 16%.
MM drops from 36% to 30% at 5, then to 24% at 10.

And interestingly, the DQ rewards actually have a minimum floor of 100 exp, while GTM and MM have none.

Liking the idea of altering the overall scheme, though...still digesting the details.


Re: The Giant Tattoo Mutant, Mighty Magpie, Experience, and You.

Posted on: May 10 2013 @ 04:11 AM
By: Clueless

Content:

Quote by: lowkey

Just to throw in a bit more data, the rewards for GTM and MM actually do scale down at higher levels.

GTM only gives 24% of current exp to level 5, then it drops to 20%. At 10, it drops to 16%.
MM drops from 36% to 30% at 5, then to 24% at 10.

And interestingly, the DQ rewards actually have a minimum floor of 100 exp, while GTM and MM have none.

Liking the idea of altering the overall scheme, though...still digesting the details.



Interesting..

Very well, I must make the amendment that those values are at level 4, but even with the minor scaling the result is much the same.

I'd made some note of the exp rewards prior to this, but it wasn't until this test that I grinding out so many of the fights and recorded start/end/gained xp on each encounter.

Thanks for the additional information. I should have noted that all encounters were at lv4 in my original post.


Re: The Giant Tattoo Mutant, Mighty Magpie, Experience, and You.

Posted on: May 10 2013 @ 06:53 AM
By: Ada

Content:

Quote by: Clueless

What I propose is that killing the GTM/MM (and maybe the DQMs as well) should always result in a reward of equal and relative value.




Yes please.


Re: The Giant Tattoo Mutant, Mighty Magpie, Experience, and You.

Posted on: May 10 2013 @ 01:42 PM
By: lowkey

Content:

Very well, I must make the amendment that those values are at level 4, but even with the minor scaling the result is much the same.


Agreed; just adding data for clarity.

I like the general suggestion; it makes sense especially because it's of most benefit to newest players. I could potentially see some revision for level 1 for those with large numbers of DKs -- if there's not an intention to make massive numbers of DKs attractive, since those level 1 grinds are one of the biggest dissuaders for that, and any single event that could reward 15-80% of level 1 at 300DKs would have a profound effect on how that plays out.

In addition to GTM, MM and DQM, I'd also suggest adding broth joker into the equation, since that has the capability to give 10% of current exp, too (perhaps 20% of current level's total incremental needed exp, as with DQM bosses). I think Stonehenge's exp rewards may also be on similar basis, though I stopped henging long before I started tracking relative exp rewards. Razz

Good thought -- thanks for suggesting!


Re: The Giant Tattoo Mutant, Mighty Magpie, Experience, and You.

Posted on: May 10 2013 @ 02:57 PM
By: lowkey

Content:

The reason I say 'approximately' is because I believe there is a very tiny deviation. I believe that it is, in reality, something like x% of your exp plus some very small number, like seventy. This way you get some exp even if you kill one of these enemies with zero exp, or get more than just the % when you have some other very low value for your current exp.


Best estimate from the data I've gathered is that, for GTM and MM, you receive the x% of exp plus 20 points; checked this for some of my smallest exp rewards here, and they've been consistent.

For DQM, both minion and boss, the algorithm differs -- this seems to be a straight 8%/10%, but with a floor of 100 pts.

Broth joker does not seem to have either floor or 'bonus'.

Yay, data. Razz


Re: The Giant Tattoo Mutant, Mighty Magpie, Experience, and You.

Posted on: May 10 2013 @ 08:30 PM
By: Clueless

Content:

Quote by: lowkey

Very well, I must make the amendment that those values are at level 4, but even with the minor scaling the result is much the same.

I like the general suggestion; it makes sense especially because it's of most benefit to newest players. I could potentially see some revision for level 1 for those with large numbers of DKs -- if there's not an intention to make massive numbers of DKs attractive, since those level 1 grinds are one of the biggest dissuaders for that, and any single event that could reward 15-80% of level 1 at 300DKs would have a profound effect on how that plays out.



Yes, as I recall defeating the GTM or MM with very low DKs at a low level isn't really an easy task, unless the player has weapon/armor beyond what they'd normally have for their level. As it is now they are not very well rewarded for the increased difficulty of this fight. It just gets a lot worse for people with many more DKs.

Grinding away jungle fights is one of the most common reasons I've heard for not caring about DKing much, and since level one is the greatest culprit in terms of requiring a grind, a change like this would help alleviate the problem. Part of the idea of the Island is that contestants are trying to beat the Drive, even if they don't put their heart and soul into it. And I'd love to see more DKing going on. Especially since it'd help with threat levels if/when the numbers get tweaked again and the outposts have a chance of going to Interesting Times, which I've not seen much of in quite awhile.

Quote by: lowkey

Very well, I must make the amendment that those values are at level 4, but even with the minor scaling the result is much the same.

Good thought -- thanks for suggesting!



Thank you, lowkey.


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