Subject: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:07 AM
By: Cadye

Content:

So, I don't know how others feel, but for me, the ability to get a list of crate locations really ruins it. It used to be the case that hunting for crates was something you had to commit substantial time and resources to - now you need a few cigarettes and a few extra minutes. So it's a straightforward way for a small number of people to trade cigs for resources, and everyone who's slightly less fast is out of luck.

The upshot will be that all crates have been collected within ten minutes of every new day - it will be a race instead of a hunt, and no-one will ever just get lucky, or be rewarded for devoting effort and stamina to it.

To be clearer: I hate it. If it can't be rolled back, maybe you could get a partial list for cigarettes, leaving some element of skill or chance? Please?



Replies:

Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:11 AM
By: Zolotisty

Content:

This, exactly. Frown


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:31 AM
By: Jon+Bishop

Content:

This same thought crossed my mind when I saw the update. A great idea, I admit, but it does seem to pull a bit of the spirit out of it.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:37 AM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

I was going to start a similar thread when I saw the MOTD. I understand that these crates will be needed to spur the economy if Eboy stops restocking himself, but think about it like this,

Prices are high! Stuff is in Demand!

Contestants have begun moving west with the prospect of wealth in mind to stake out a claim of a search area in which to make their fortune!

There'd be a crate rush, if the prices were high enough. People would recognize the opportunity and run out into the jungles to make a load of reck on hunting.

It's not prospecting if you know where it all is, isn't it?

Maybe if you spend four cigarettes to locate just one crate. Maybe that is appropriate? It kills the spirit of the hunt, and in the first ten minutes of the day, if people rush out to the map to travel to get all the crates before everyone else, doesn't that exclude people with a schedule that varies 2 hours to the earlier or latter?


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:59 AM
By: Beeker

Content:

Agree with these other folks, particularly KK's point about people whose schedules may vary.

I don't intend to use it myself, as that feeling of "ooh! I found one!" would be lost to me. I really enjoy that feeling.

I do appreciate the fact that there are more crates now, as it gives people more opportunities to find them, and dropping more when donations are made is a cool idea.

If it were up to me, I'd remove the crate location info from the comm tent and keep the other changes. That'd be my suggestion.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 02:07 AM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Disabled, for now... I'd still like some way for players to get a _rough_ idea of where the crates are, though. I'll have a think about this and continue tomorrow.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 02:20 AM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Thanks Joe.

Maybe just give the location of one Crate at a time?

Or how about a very rough reading of where the some of the crates landed?

I mean, dropping crates by airplane isn't a very exact science.

You could ask Misery Guts, "Where'd it land?" He couldn't say, "22,14, exactly." That's ridiculous, especially with all the improbability whatnot going around. It'd be tossed about. Maybe he could say, "There's one somewhere South of Acehigh." or "We dropped a few in the river," or "Some are floating around the lake." Very unspecific, but still a ballpark on where to go for some of them.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 03:05 AM
By: Beeker

Content:

Brainstorming:

the Comm Tent could tell you how many crates were out there yet unclaimed, but not tell you their locations?

I still think the "ohboyohboy!" feeling of finding one is worth not knowing where they are. They're just fun!


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 08:29 AM
By: Sloth

Content:

Quote by: Beeker

Brainstorming:

the Comm Tent could tell you how many crates were out there yet unclaimed, but not tell you their locations?

I still think the "ohboyohboy!" feeling of finding one is worth not knowing where they are. They're just fun!



That's a great idea.

In particular, knowing that there are any crates out to get is good enough reason to take a walkabout sometimes, particularly when your Joker Improbability is telling you that jungle fights are a complete waste of stamina today and you should just go for a walk instead.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 08:32 AM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

Personally, I liked the crate list, although the crates I found seemed a bit light on the precious energy drinks. I used the map at the height of the Newbstorm (server bogging down). So I decided to log in during the middle of the night, filled up on steak rather than hunt in the jungle, and lo and behold, the crate lists was gone. I didn't even realize it until after I spent a cig checking eboy's prices, which I did not intend to do.

Maybe make the list for half the crates dropped, I dunno. Or have different lists at different outposts. Or have partial lists, and you can pay increasingly more for more lists. Or don't make the lists available until an hour after the start of the New Day, to give those that like it the old way a first shot.

To me, the problem isn't the crates or the crate list, but the prices at eboys. Putting out more crates, and providing a crate list is one solution to this problem, and it's a creative solution with the intention (I'm guessing) of getting more people involved in crate hunting, and more crates found and thus injected into the economy. Maybe the answer is just to put out a lot more crates, without any list. Or maybe just keep eboy directly stocked up when prices reach a certain point.

The other thing that occurs to me is that from a certain perspective, the high prices are not a problem, as it encourages players to buy DP and trade it for req. If that's the motivation, then I'd appreciate hearing it up front. I can roll with a profit motive, especially for someone that works as hard as CMJ.

If that's not the case, shouldn't supplies be somewhat proportional to the amount of players?

EDIT: One important thing I need to get straight. The crate location list is suspended or crate drops are? This is not clear to me from CMJ's post, above.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 08:58 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Having all the items supplied through crate drop is going to make some items inordinately expensive. Energy drinks, for instance: there is no upper limit to the number of energy drinks a character can use. I predict that almost none of the ones found on the map will be sold back to eBoy's. Rather, they'll be kept and used by the lucky finders.

If eBoy doesn't get a daily supply in, pretty soon he'll have almost none to sell.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 09:18 AM
By: Cadye

Content:

CMJ, whatever you decide to do, thanks for listening.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 10:02 AM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Having all the items supplied through crate drop is going to make some items inordinately expensive. Energy drinks, for instance: there is no upper limit to the number of energy drinks a character can use. I predict that almost none of the ones found on the map will be sold back to eBoy's. Rather, they'll be kept and used by the lucky finders.

If eBoy doesn't get a daily supply in, pretty soon he'll have almost none to sell.



Basic capitalism, really. People will hoard energy drinks in the face of scarcity. I know I am (but selling everything else). Why should I sell them today if I can expect the price to go up tomorrow, when I might need them or can sell them for greater profits. We need an Energy Drink STIMULUS. Heh.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:15 PM
By: Zekiel

Content:

Quote by: Pinche+Cabron

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Having all the items supplied through crate drop is going to make some items inordinately expensive. Energy drinks, for instance: there is no upper limit to the number of energy drinks a character can use. I predict that almost none of the ones found on the map will be sold back to eBoy's. Rather, they'll be kept and used by the lucky finders.

If eBoy doesn't get a daily supply in, pretty soon he'll have almost none to sell.



Basic capitalism, really. People will hoard energy drinks in the face of scarcity. I know I am (but selling everything else). Why should I sell them today if I can expect the price to go up tomorrow, when I might need them or can sell them for greater profits. We need an Energy Drink STIMULUS. Heh.


Exactly. Energy Drink prices will go up. By a lot, probably, too. But what little Energy Drinks -are- sold back are done so at a great benefit to the finder. So from now on people will be paying what Energy Drinks are worth to them, rather than to eBoy.

EDIT: The only thing in the way of supporting a player-ran economy is the difference between eBoy's buying and selling prices. With the same stock, selling an item to eBoy will net you only about 70% of what he sells it for. Suppose the entire playerbase happens to agree the value of an Energy Drink is 2000 R, certainly nothing less. The lucky finders will sell their drinks to eBoy until he coughs up less than 2 grand each, but eBoy will still charge about 2800 R for them... This makes gathering your own Energy Drinks, rather than playing through eBoy, much more worthwhile. Which in turn increases the nerf-factor on people that can't fit an exact start-of-day into their schedules.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:32 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Then a question and a suggestion...

First question, Don't the prices in eBoy's go down after a while?

-Suggestion.

Remember that guy who OD'd on energy drinks? Had a heart attack, died? There should definitely be a ceiling on the amount of energy drinks one can have in a day. Or maybe you'd pass out later, you know?

Hell, it comes in a ROCKET can! It has to kill you if you drink enough!

ROCKET CAN!


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:34 PM
By: Tremir

Content:

How about adding a new mount that helps crate seekers instead of a simple list in the comm tent?
Something that doesn't give combat bonuses, or give very few of them, but reduces stamina costs for traveling, and have it bark when you're traveling and within 2 or 3 squares from a crate, and point out the direction.
This'll help crate hunters find crates, without making it too easy, and at the cost of a more combat-effective mount.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 01:48 PM
By: Zolotisty

Content:

I do and don't agree there should be an upper-limit on Energy Drink consumption! I don't agree because it's about the only way Jokers, Robots and Gobots can get extra stam, and that's still a sort of fuckered situation wherein every other race enjoys the two-to-three Mutant steak benefit and I get to scuffle around with my variable learning ability and my variable stam buffs and my VERY FIXED available stam.

..At the same time..

As KK mentioned, Zolotisty should've had a heart attack AGES ago from all of the caffeine and taurine and essence of cocaine in those drinks. That, or everyone who drinks a lot of them routinely should burst like great big water balloons in a shower of pee because if you chug eighty ounces, it's gombe goin' somewhere.

It is totally true that people don't sell their EDs back.

Perhaps instead of the upper limit on drink consumption (or if there IS an upper limit, please pretty please make it racially based?), we can actually make good on that ROCKET CAN and make EDs heavy little bastards. Discourage people from carrying or hoarding a bunch.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 03:30 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Interesting ideas, here.

This is all still up in the air, so don't take this as set in stone, but what if...

Crates:
Base newday rate set to 0. Donation bonus vastly increased (10 Crates per dollar). The benefit of this is that it makes the crate drop times privileged information. Only the donator (and anyone who bothers to check the Donations bar constantly) knows when Crates has dropped - and if the donator wants to tell their clan, or perhaps even co-ordinate things so that everyone in the clan is online just before he makes a donation, then that's up to them.

Crates/Comms:
"The planes always fly from South to North, and always five at a time. Each Crate has a spring-loaded tracking device inside that sends out a "ping" when the crate is opened, so we know when someone's found a crate - and when you watch as closely as I do, you can count the crates that have been dropped versus the crates that have been found. The crates tend to get buffered around and land within two klicks East or West of the plane's overhead route. For %s cigarettes, I can tell you how many Crates can be found in each five-klick North-South strip, and how many crates there are in total. I wish I could be more exact, but it'll at least give you a rough idea of where's good to go prospecting today."

Outputs:
1-5: %s
5-10: %s
15-20: %s
20-25: %s
Total crates: %s

Tells the player which five-square vertical strip on the map is the juiciest that day.

Energy Drinks:
Well, damn it, they should be expensive. Smile There's no upper limit on how many you can use in a day, so the cost is the varying factor. I could apply a greater weight, but because their use is unlimited, folks would just drink them rather than carry them around.
I'm not a fan of hard limits - they take away choice from the player. A soft limit, one that varies according to how risky the player wants to play things, now... that's more interesting. Perhaps we could do something with a "Caffeine Shakes" debuff, or even a mild addiction / effects resistance penalty (like with smoking, only perhaps not quite so vicious). We need to limit their use, but we need to do so in a way that's fun, variable, and a way that gives the player more decisions to make instead of taking decisions away.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 04:05 PM
By: Massic

Content:

Quote by: Tremir

How about adding a new mount that helps crate seekers instead of a simple list in the comm tent?
Something that doesn't give combat bonuses, or give very few of them, but reduces stamina costs for traveling, and have it bark when you're traveling and within 2 or 3 squares from a crate, and point out the direction.
This'll help crate hunters find crates, without making it too easy, and at the cost of a more combat-effective mount.



I like this idea, as it will enforce more of a specialist approach to crate hunting and hopefully even things out, although it would probably be best if the crate detection was the only bonus it confered. That being said, IMO prices are inflating enough as it is (with the notable exception of IB's, which are now a player generated commodity, and ration packs which for the most part are ignored in favor of more efficient methods of stamina enhancement) and removing Eboy's generation of his own stock will only compound that.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 04:39 PM
By: Beeker

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe

what if...

Crates:
Base newday rate set to 0. Donation bonus vastly increased (10 Crates per dollar). The benefit of this is that it makes the crate drop times privileged information. Only the donator (and anyone who bothers to check the Donations bar constantly) knows when Crates has dropped - and if the donator wants to tell their clan, or perhaps even co-ordinate things so that everyone in the clan is online just before he makes a donation, then that's up to them.



Interesting idea. Seems like it would help with the problem of people whose playtimes don't correspond with the start of newdays, and I like that aspect of it.

Quote by: CavemanJoe


Crates/Comms:
"The planes always fly from South to North, and always five at a time. Each Crate has a spring-loaded tracking device inside that sends out a "ping" when the crate is opened, so we know when someone's found a crate - and when you watch as closely as I do, you can count the crates that have been dropped versus the crates that have been found. The crates tend to get buffered around and land within two klicks East or West of the plane's overhead route. For %s cigarettes, I can tell you how many Crates can be found in each five-klick North-South strip, and how many crates there are in total. I wish I could be more exact, but it'll at least give you a rough idea of where's good to go prospecting today."



Not as sure about this idea. Though I agree it can be made realistic ("we have tracking devices"), for me it would still detract from the "ooooooh, a present!" feature of crate hunting. To me, this is a valuable feature, and I'd hate to see it reduced. I'd prefer the suggestion I made above, where the info you can get is about how many crates are still available. Maybe have that be a per-day thing: pay once, and for the rest of that day you may visit the tent as many times as you like and ask how many crates are still out there. I'm not, mind, saying that this is the only solution! Just thinking out loud, really. Or, uh, typing. Or something. Anyway, I do prefer this strip idea to the exact location info that was available yesterday; it's just I'm still not sure giving location information adds to the fun of crate-hunting.

And, as Cadye says, ultimately this is CMJ's decision, and I appreciate that you're willing to let me babble on about my ideas on the matter!


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 04:42 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe


Perhaps we could do something with a "Caffeine Shakes" debuff, or even a mild addiction / effects resistance penalty (like with smoking, only perhaps not quite so vicious). We need to limit their use, but we need to do so in a way that's fun, variable, and a way that gives the player more decisions to make instead of taking decisions away.



Common effects of drinking four Monster/Rockstar/Redbull/Concentrated Crystal Meth in a Can in one sitting:

Rapid physical shakes,
Jittery, sudden movements
Sleeplessness,
Irritability
nausea,
nervousness
Severe fatigue from withdrawal...

(These I'm getting off of a website.)


Hm. Suppose that maybe there is a... Well, nicotine withdrawal is an attack and defense buff, but when you smoke, you still get the increase...

Maybe an addiction to energy drinks? It's definitely common that people get addicted. You start off the day feeling groggy without your fix, lose some stamina, then chug them down and you feel fine, I suppose.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 05:20 PM
By: Tremir

Content:

When did IBs become a player generated commodity?

And in the same vein, I really think that the other one shots should also be player craftable.
Probably shouldn't be easy or cheap, in stamina or in ingredients, but they should be craftable.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 05:27 PM
By: zPATULA

Content:

I'm a fan of the 'crate-sniffing mount' idea. I'd suggest keeping the detection range low - like within one square - and don't give a direction clue. You want something that would help, but not something that would 'overfish'.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 05:29 PM
By: Massic

Content:

Quote by: Tremir

When did IBs become a player generated commodity?
*snip*



Since any grenades left in a Jokers backpack have the chance of turning into IBs. Add to that their inherent random and potentially dangerous nature and there just isn't that much demand either.

K.K. Victoria - I'd just like to add one more effect to your list of the hazards of over use of energy drinks:

Dehydration - Your water engorged bladder causes you to spend some time (and stamina) attending to it.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 05:35 PM
By: Tremir

Content:

Grenades left in a Joker's backpack? Nice mechanism.
Haven't tried a joker yet, since I don't have a lot of time to play lately, and I don't think I have enough DKs for them.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 05:58 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Quote by: Massic

Quote by: Tremir

When did IBs become a player generated commodity?
*snip*



Since any grenades left in a Jokers backpack have the chance of turning into IBs. Add to that their inherent random and potentially dangerous nature and there just isn't that much demand either.



I don't really know why. I use them all the time, hoping to get lucky and maybe finding a cigarette. It's the only way to spend reck to buy a cigarette, and it's all based on your blind luck.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 06:17 PM
By: Massic

Content:

Quote by: K.K.+Victoria


*snip*

I don't really know why. I use them all the time, hoping to get lucky and maybe finding a cigarette. It's the only way to spend reck to buy a cigarette, and it's all based on your blind luck.



True, I am rather biased in that I'm trying to generate as many cigarettes as quickly as possible to fuel my Clan's BG, so the chance of blowing myself to hell is very counterproductive. What I used to do in the past was start using IB's once my stamina reached the 35% mark to try and squeeze some experience, req or charm out of them, so I know there's appeal. I merely meant that there doesn't seem to be the same demand as bang or whoomph grenades for more apparent reasons.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 07:05 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

I'm strongly against the idea of imposing a penalty for use of a lot of Energy Drinks... UNLESS the severe stamina limitations are at the same time lifted from the Robot and Joker races.

If we're going to be realistic, then the whole thing needs to be made realistic. Right now it's very unrealistic in a lot of ways.* Jokers DO eat meat... Obviously they do -- they gain stamina from cleaning and cooking, same as anyone else. They ought to be able to walk into a restaurant and get a random amount of stamina by ordering a meal.

Robots ought to be able to buy an equivalent chance to plug in at a CC404 'restaurant' -- or maybe even all of them -- and recharge their batteries.

If that could be fixed, then and only then would it be fair to impose an addiction penalty for overuse of Energy Drinks.

And in the meantime, watch and see: eBoy is going to need to receive daily shipments of energy drinks in the same way -- and for the same reason -- that restaurants need regular shipments of meat and produce despite buying small amounts of meat from player characters. Stamina is at the heart of the game. Tinkering with the availability of a race's only purchasable source of extra stamina has a major effect on that race's playability.

* Some of us Jokers, in-character, are quite fond of certain foods... don't suddenly tell us we can't eat! I mean, wave a cinnamon bun under Sessine's nose and watch his reaction!


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 08:23 PM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

Having only played a Joker for one DK, I completely sympathize and agree with Sessine's position on Energy Drink limitations. The biggest stumbling block for a Joker is the stamina. The random buffs/debuffs are only a problem if you are unwilling or unable to adapt your play (or if like poor Cath, you're having a string of bad luck). I haven't yet played a robot, so I can't speak to their needs for energy drinks from my own experience.

Two suggestions regarding the hoarding:

1) I know eboy's commission has already been cut once, but perhaps it is still too high? I mean, 30% for what is essentially functioning as a broker? Come on! What is his overhead? Rent can't be that high. I suggest reducing his commission to 10%.

2) What if energy drinks found in crates had to be sold at eboy's? They would lack a secret ingredient that only eboy has (possibly mugwump jism), so the only way to use them would be to sell them, then buy them back. Perhaps delay their being added to the supply (and the related price drop associated with selling to eboy) by 1 or 2 game days.

This is a very interesting situation from an economics point of view. CMJ is essentially in the position of the Federal Reserve, in that he controls the energy drink supply and sets eboy's commission rate. I applaud the spirit of how he's tried to set up the island economy to give players more choices to affect the island as a whole and their own destinies. This is much more interesting than if eboy had set prices and an unlimited supply (which I guess would correspond to a socialist, top down economy).

Very interesting. Makes me wonder if the island isn't just some big experiment for someone's thesis. CMJ, you aren't secretly working on a PhD in economics, are you?


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 08:46 PM
By: Yrk

Content:

alright, here's a very far out suggestion.

Wait with all of thies changes, especially the one that sais eBoy cant restock on his own, untill you add the pills. Then give the player an alchemy skill, or something similar, that would basically let one manufacture ones own pills and *drum roll* energy drinks!
Possibly combine the alchemy skill with the scavenging to let people create their own bombs and maybe even medikits or teleporters.
An even further out suggestion would be to combine the cooking skill with the scavenging to enable the creation of rat packs.


And some feedback.
The non-restocking energydrinks will pretty much kill the purpose of energy drinks. Because unless you stumble upon a crate while walking between outposts it wouldn't be a profit. Say i head out to hunt some crates, i would be spending quite alott of stamina just walking randomly. Sertainly i would be spending more stamina on traveling than i would get from any energy drink that i might find, if im lucky.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 08:53 PM
By: Disaster

Content:

Quote by: K.K.+Victoria

Thanks Joe.

Maybe just give the location of one Crate at a time?

Or how about a very rough reading of where the some of the crates landed?

I mean, dropping crates by airplane isn't a very exact science.

You could ask Misery Guts, "Where'd it land?" He couldn't say, "22,14, exactly." That's ridiculous, especially with all the improbability whatnot going around. It'd be tossed about. Maybe he could say, "There's one somewhere South of Acehigh." or "We dropped a few in the river," or "Some are floating around the lake." Very unspecific, but still a ballpark on where to go for some of them.



I Like the Idea of having a General Area where Crates are Dropped.

"Well it looks like the crates were dropped towards the north end of the Island in the Jungles near Ace High"



Quote by: Beeker

Brainstorming:

the Comm Tent could tell you how many crates were out there yet unclaimed, but not tell you their locations?

I still think the "ohboyohboy!" feeling of finding one is worth not knowing where they are. They're just fun!



I also like the Idea of this, even along side the others.

It would be a good Idea to have this set to where you can see how many there are before you decide to look for them

My Idea:

I think it would be a good idea to Drop the Crates randomly throughout the day(Game or Real)
Lets say
8 Sets of Boxes will be dropped per Real 24 hour day at random times. There can be an announcement in the News
"A Plane flies overhead and drops # Crates in the Jungle"


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 11:08 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

I see how you mean Sessine. I'm not too fond of the Joker's not being able to eat either. I do not think that the nutrition and stamina gained from the food should be random. You aren't doing anything to the food to change it, (Unless your digestive efficiency is changed due to improbability. Then (JOKING) maybe we'd have a 'Food digestive' skill? Certainly one would build up their personal palette of taste...)

I'm still holding by your nutrition and amount you can eat wildly varying daily due to your organs reconfiguring on a regular basis.

Where did I post about this? I kind of forget...

Anyway, I'm sure most of you have heard me spout about it previously....


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 11:33 PM
By: Escemfer

Content:

I guess this is the thread to mention it, since we're talking about crates...

I just deleted my entire post because I realized that it was beginning to sound a LOT like one huge political argument... So, for the sake of simplicity:

I HATE CAPITALISM.

I HATE IT EVEN MORE IN GAMES. Isn't everyone supposed to be having fun? That's kind of not going to happen when a minority group of players are running the entire economy. And everyone seems to be agreeing on that point. Those who have money to burn are going to donate and send their clan out to snatch up crates, or buy Req and stock up on overpriced loot from e-Boy's. Those who have loads of time are going to track new days and crate drops and snap up as many as possible, so nobody else can get any later. And as shocking as it may be to these people, some of us have jobs, or school, or families. They can't just throw money at the computer every time we want to gain a level in a game or spend hours upon hours hoarding resources.

And we're putting the game economy in the hands of people who DO have time and money to burn, and who are, obviously, if they're spending those resources, going to be working for their own benefit? Just give e-Boy his shipment of goods, come on. Whether or not I'm doing alright for myself on any particular drive run, I'm not going to be having fun if there's a group of players acting like capitalist jerks and preventing other players from advancing without a hell of a lot of trouble. That's just not cool.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 11:39 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Well, hold on a second.

How much does requisition really affect your game? I have money that I don't really know what to do with, I have items that I don't really know what to do with either...

I don't think that people will donate just because of it granting crates. I think that that is just a nice side-effect of being generous.

Yes, there will be the occasion that a clan will use a massive donation to grant crates and all that, but think about it...

They get items. That doesn't really affect anyone else but them, right?

Or they sell them, and get the reck. To... What? Buy a bigger hat? It doesn't help too much to hoard a mess of reck...

Plus, if they do sell them to get the reck, then the items are cheaper for everyone else.

Edit: Also, if anything will get more donations to CMJ? I see absolutely no problem with that. He devotes his time to us in lieu of a job. That's devotion, and I see nothing wrong with it.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 11:46 PM
By: Escemfer

Content:

This go-around, I'm doing peachy. Req and items aren't a big deal to me. They're a big deal to Ebenezer, though. He does a LOT worse in the game than me. So it's a big deal to him, as far as the game goes, whether he can feed his character or buy decent armor or pick up a can of repellent spray. And I'm fairly sure that he's not the only player in the entire game who has a hard go of it. He's a full-time student, by the way. He doesn't really have hours upon hours of free time when he's supposed to be studying, or a nice bit of pocket money. And I'm sure he's not the only one in that situation either.

I have a problem with the idea that some players are going to be taking advantage of crate drops or donations to get ahead in the game at the expense of other players. Energy drinks? Yes, that's an issue. Everyone's admitted it. Certain races need those more than others, and they're already pretty expensive. When the only source of energy drinks is crate drops, what do you think is going to happen? Exactly what everyone else already said will happen. People will use them for themselves, or sell them for a huge profit when they're just getting them for free. And then, hey, some people are paying even more than that for an item that doesn't give you much in return and was originally gained for free.

Req doesn't affect my game that much. It doesn't mean it doesn't affect other people's. And yes, I have a problem with making the game harder for them just because they're less lucky than everyone else.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 11:48 PM
By: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Content:

Quote by: Escemfer

I guess this is the thread to mention it, since we're talking about crates...

I just deleted my entire post because I realized that it was beginning to sound a LOT like one huge political argument... So, for the sake of simplicity:

I HATE CAPITALISM.

I HATE IT EVEN MORE IN GAMES. Isn't everyone supposed to be having fun? That's kind of not going to happen when a minority group of players are running the entire economy. And everyone seems to be agreeing on that point. Those who have money to burn are going to donate and send their clan out to snatch up crates, or buy Req and stock up on overpriced loot from e-Boy's. Those who have loads of time are going to track new days and crate drops and snap up as many as possible, so nobody else can get any later. And as shocking as it may be to these people, some of us have jobs, or school, or families. They can't just throw money at the computer every time we want to gain a level in a game or spend hours upon hours hoarding resources.

And we're putting the game economy in the hands of people who DO have time and money to burn, and who are, obviously, if they're spending those resources, going to be working for their own benefit? Just give e-Boy his shipment of goods, come on. Whether or not I'm doing alright for myself on any particular drive run, I'm not going to be having fun if there's a group of players acting like capitalist jerks and preventing other players from advancing without a hell of a lot of trouble. That's just not cool.

Capitalism may be inherently flawed, but it's better than Socialism or Communism.

When people demand more, the supply will drop, and vice versa. Simple economics, but very important to remember. Capitalist systems work on this basic principle.

And besides, I never found any problems with the in-game economy, myself.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 29 2009 @ 11:54 PM
By: Ebenezer

Content:

Even though Escemfer said it already, I'll say it again...

When I am in need of Monster Repellent. . . I won't be able to afford it when it's 588 req a can, which is what the price is currently.

When I need to buy it, it's because I can't accumulate enough req to upgrade my armour, so I need some buffs to help. When Monster Repellent 300 req or less a can (I can't remember ever buying it for more than 280 req), then I can make back the cost in fights and still save up to upgrade my weapons and armour.

THAT will be a serious problem for me when I am playing at a challenging rank again.


EDIT: So to answer KK, requisition is important when I am playing at a challenging rank (which, for me, is about rank 4 right now).
I assume that there are other newbs with the same sort of issue... though, I will admit that it might just be because of the way I'm playing the game or something.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 12:48 AM
By: Angua

Content:

I tend to agree with those who dislike it. It's a rather annoying feature. One of the better things about II is the fact that as a player you don't have to interact with other players *unless you want to*. This sort of forces more interaction/interference from other players, which spoils the spirit of the game a bit, in my opinion.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 01:02 AM
By: Zekiel

Content:

Quote by: Giuseppe+LorenzoCapitalism may be inherently flawed, but it's better than Socialism or Communism.

When people demand more, the supply will drop, and vice versa. Simple economics, but very important to remember. Capitalist systems work on this basic principle.

And besides, I never found any problems with the in-game economy, myself.[/p]


Doesn't apply in this game's setting. Implementing the new crate system hasn't done anything to the demand, and yet the supply has plummeted. Making supply dependant on donations makes it even more variant, still not doing anything about the demand.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the major 'negative vibe' that's fluxing through the discussions is that the prices will skyrocket.


I've figured the prices at eBoy's work roughly as follows:

Every settlement has a 11 constants defined, 1 for every commodity. The way prices are defined is by a hyperbolic equation, with the current stock of the commodity as independant variable. A hyperbole's formula is: y = k / x, where k is a constant. (In this case, 88 constants, one for each commodity in each settlement.) The k for 'buying at' is the k for 'selling at' * 0.70 rounded off. At very low numbers of stock, it's multiplied with 0.50 instead, to prevent infinite money loops from buying and selling a single item over and over. The graph below shows a hyperbole with k = 1. Imagine stock to be on the x axis, and prices to be on the y axis.



While changing the mechanics of how stock is filled and emptied determines the prices, and changing these mechanics 'the wrong way' will inevitably lead to them skyrocketing, the prices can be changed by editting the formula as well.

You could try y = k / (x+a), effectively shifting the graph left 'a' steps.

You could try y^2 = k / x, or y = sqrt( k / x ), effectively flattening the entire graph and making absolute differences between 'x = low' and 'x = high' smaller without losing your hyperbolic properties. You'd have to adjust k to keep the horizontal asymptote roughly the same, but that's the same simple conversion for all 88 constants.

You could try combining the two or doing whatever else your mathletic brain inspires you to. I'm no expert at balancing games (or at math for that matter), just spewing thoughts and suggestions. If we all keep cracking skulls on this, we'll come up with something most people will like. Unfortunately, as is always the problem with making decisions, not everyone will like the new better than the old, but sometimes change for the sake of change isn't per definition a bad thing. It's what makes evolution work, and we all know what came of that.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 01:41 AM
By: Escemfer

Content:

Quote by: Zekiel

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the major 'negative vibe' that's fluxing through the discussions is that the prices will skyrocket.



That's pretty much my argument, Zekiel. I understand that some people will always be less able to afford things than others, but to me it looks like changing the economy this way is going to widen the gap a little more than I personally appreciate. I'm not saying anything against donations or crates or people taking advantage of their donator points from supporting the game. I'm against unbalancing the game economy this way. Supply drops, prices rise, but average income remains the same. Not gonna work.

Plus, Beeker has a point; it's harder to find crates by chance if other people know where they are or when they're dropped to get their first. And it's not as fun to find them if you already knew where they were. Why not drop fewer crates, but more often, and at random intervals throughout the day, independant of donations?


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 01:46 AM
By: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Content:

In other words, as supply approaches zero, price levels approach infinity? I believe it can be modeled by a simple limit. I'm a little rusty on my algebra and calculus, so I could be wrong.

To CMJ:

Would it be possible (or for that matter, feasible) to write a "manufacturing" module? Players could be employed there and receive x amount of Requisition per day of work, and the goods produced would be sold at eBoy's. Is that a viable way to reduce prices?


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 01:58 AM
By: Escemfer

Content:

Because it's entirely likely that we can build factories on the island, produce items that won't be fucked up by the rampant improbability, and that players would want to spend their game time working at a factory and being paid less for each item produced than it will be sold for. I speak for everyone that is me when I say, "What?"

EDIT: And this isn't even considering the price of building said manufacturing facilities and stocking the supplies needed to build the mentioned items. If you're going to do realism by getting everyone factory jobs, then why not go all the way? I think it would be considered simpler and more cost-efficient by the Network and whatever government is paying for the war to just continue dropping crates instead of spending all that money to make us slightly more self-sufficient, particularly when they aren't getting anything other than amusing television out of it.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 02:06 AM
By: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Content:

Never said it was a good idea, just an idea.

We still need some way to increase supply without price readjustment. Possibly one of the jets that drops the crates off dropped more than it should have. Or one of them could crash, leaving behind a truly massive amount of supplies, more than one player could possibly carry.

On a side note, I don't even use the damn energy drinks or go crate-hunting. Just doesn't seem worth the time and effort.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 02:34 AM
By: XaNe

Content:

I don't know, I agree with Escemfer. It is getting far too hard to buy Necessary items. I've had to go without any repellant for the past few DKs, simply because it was out of my price range. However, I do have to say I'm glad the crate finding option is gone, it makes it impossible for idle travelers like me to have those "oh, look what I found!" moments. However, here is my suggestion. Give Eboy back a small amount of restocking power, just to keep prices from skyrocketing. This is most certainly possible, and would solve the entire problem, really. That way, the finding/selling of crates would still be profitable, while people like me could reasonably afford basic commodities.

In regards to economic systems, not gonna get involved, I agree too much with everyone's opinion...


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 02:49 AM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Hm.

Well, I was considering this,

Instead of cigarettes being spent to Misery Guts, why not DP spent to the Hunter's Lodge?

I'd be fine with this being an exact coordinate then,
spend 25dp, get the exact location of a crate someplace.

2,000reck = 100DP, meaning 25dp = 500 reck.

Supposing you still have the random variable of the fact that the crate may or may not be worth anything to you, it'd give you the added dimension of maybe gambling some DP on whether or not you get a good crate. Hell, it may have three one-shots for you, or maybe just be full of small medical kits.

I like the idea of the donations adding some crates, but lets consider pushing everyone's thoughts together a bit.

First point: Very minor restocking for eBoy so prices don't go to Heaven and never come home. Nothing to really keep up a supply, there'd still have to be traders coming in regularly, but just to keep things in a good way.

Point #2: Random crate drops, dispersed throughout the four hour days. Suppose there are twenty crates dropped, then they appear at random intervals throughout the day. Makes it more interesting, and keeps it much more random because the people who do search patterns will have their 'Already checked there' portions of the map re-seeded with crates again at some random points in time.

Point #3: I like the idea of donations = more crates. We give you gifts, you return the favor, right? Well, how about we keep this? Say 1$ = 1 crate. That way, there is still the random drop of crates so people who don't donate and don't conspire to go on a massive crate hunt after throwing a fifty at you, can still have a chance at collecting crates, but you are still supported by donations and the donators are still given a sort of gift. And if the donator isn't a crate-hunter, then they still have the added benefit of knowing that sometime, somewhere, some random crate-hunter will stumble upon their crate and will stimulate the economy in some manner.

Point #4: I think that if we have it in this way, then it's fine to have someone maybe spend 100dp on getting an instant 'It's right here.'
Reason being, 1$ = 2,000 reck. Or a crate with three one shots, which'll do you well.

This doesn't unbalance, because every 100dp spent to reveal a crate, drops another one someplace out there. No one is cheated out of a crate due to your using your DP to find them. An excess in crates keeps prices low like this, and there is the loop of 1$, find crate, drop crate, 1$ find crate, drop crate...

So in conclusion:

People who do donate are rewarded,
People who are late aren't punished for not being on time, because crates are randomly dropped around.
People who don't donate aren't at a disadvantage because they aren't left out of the loop, as donating to find crates drops more crates
People who worry about the economy can either find the crates themselves, or wait until people sell them. A lot of people donate, there will be a lot of crates.

CMJ is also kept happy, cos' it might spur more donations.

--Did my best to include everyone's input in one gathering.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 02:59 AM
By: Max+Dougwell

Content:

K.K., I think that's an excellent idea.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 03:07 AM
By: XaNe

Content:

You know what KK? I have to say, I can find nothing wrong with that idea. I say we go for it. I would be slightly miffed at my expensive products at Eboys, but I'd live with it. It might finally motivate me to go crate hunting, who knows?


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 03:12 AM
By: Zolotisty

Content:

Digging KK's suggestion.

What about this, if eBoy isn't going to get more shipments:

For every crate that's found, another is dropped automatically, thereby keeping a constant number of crates on the map for everyone to find? We want a surplus for everyone to drive down the skyrocketing prices, right? Constant player-driven supply will reduce demand.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 03:25 AM
By: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Content:

I also like KK's idea.

It's either that or set a permanent price on items regardless of how many are in stock. Needless to say, that wouldn't work.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 04:02 AM
By: XaNe

Content:

I think either Zolotisty, or KK's idea could work, they're pretty much interchangeable. Either way, the important thing is a more or less stable island economy.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 04:17 AM
By: Ebenezer

Content:

I'll jump on this bandwagon!

I like both KK's idea and Zolotisty's idea. Either one would work...or some combination of the two.

Either solution would satisfy me.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 06:15 AM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

Quote by: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Never said it was a good idea, just an idea.

We still need some way to increase supply without price readjustment. Possibly one of the jets that drops the crates off dropped more than it should have. Or one of them could crash, leaving behind a truly massive amount of supplies, more than one player could possibly carry.

On a side note, I don't even use the damn energy drinks or go crate-hunting. Just doesn't seem worth the time and effort.



If you know it's not a good idea, why did you even post it? We're trying to have a constructive discussion here over an issue that is important to us. Obviously it has no bearing on you. You admitted that much yourself. I do not understand why you feel it necessary to offer your opinion about something you don't care about nor to which you have given much, if any, thought.

OK, that out of the way, I think something needs to be clarified. The island economy is nowhere near being anything like a model of Classical Capitalism. The closest model to it might be a pre-classical Mercantile system, insofar as 1) CMJ controls the supply via crate drops or restocking eboy directly, 2) CMJ controls the distribution via eboy (there are no competing distribution points, nor can players exchange goods), and 3) the whole currency system limits player exchange of req and prevents players from starting after a DK with accumulated req.

So pushing for an island economy based on a true capitalist model is absurd, not just because of the complete non-joy of a game where you have to go work in a factory, but because it would also be asking CMJ to rewrite the entire game at a fundamental level. So how about it, Joe? Care to throw away everything you've done, and start from scratch making a new game few would want to play?

The problem is not something that is going to need a fundamental rewrite. The game has just gotten a little out of balance due to new character races and the waves of new players we occasionally get. What is required is creative tweaking, and I think I like KK's ideas the best. I say give 'em a try and see if they work. Let's keep the game interesting and not a drudgery.

Another idea might be to go back to the list of crate locations, but only for the first 10 or 20 crates, which are dropped first thing at start of New Day. Then have another 10 or 20 crates dropped throughout the game day without a list. I seriously had a blast chasing those crates with the list, hoping I'd get there before others. And I didn't get there first, every time. And it was fun trying to guess where my competitors might be going, so I could go after crates in another direction.

I think this would satisfy both the traditional crate hunters and people like me, that love the competiveness. It's sort of like orienteering. (And if we really wanted to make it interesting, the location list could be based on bearings rather than grid numbers). It would also satisfy the problem of the constricted supply, if enough goods were being found and pumped into the economy.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 11:09 AM
By: Zekiel

Content:

We could make clever riddles/hints that give away the coordinates of a crate - First to solve 'm gets the goods. Cool Would make crate hunting an intellectual affair. ^^


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 03:24 PM
By: Zolotisty

Content:

(psst, the forums should be a safe place for anyone to voice their ideas and opinions, especially in open discussion threads. well. basically anyone. people who post the site's link to 4chan don't have a voice, obviously, and cmj gets to decide who does -- but the principle stands!)


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 03:46 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Quote by: Zekiel

We could make clever riddles/hints that give away the coordinates of a crate - First to solve 'm gets the goods. Cool Would make crate hunting an intellectual affair. ^^



This would be tricky. Given enough time - and people do spend vast amounts of time on this game - any human can outwit a computer and figure out what to do in any potential scenario described by said computer.

We could do something where the Comms Tent guy says something along the lines of "There are x crates within y squares of NewHome," perhaps.

The prices at eBoy's have been increasing over the past couple of days because we've had more Rookies. eBoy's prices are calculated by ($players/$stock)*$demandmultiplier (that's a bit simplified, but you get the idea). Anything we do to the economy will take at least a week for us to see the changes properly, given the $demandmultiplier.

Supply has actually increased vastly. The number of Crates on the World Map is just silly. We went from twelve Crate Drops per day (and between 2 and 5 automatic restocks per Outpost) to ten crates per dollar donated. Once players start selling the equipment back to eBoy's, we may have to adjust the number of crates per dollar downwards. It's up so high right now as a... well, a kind of "stimulus" to counter the effects of the Rookie Swarm. Wink

Energy Drinks - it was a mistake on my part to make their use unlimited. This removes the limit of things you can do in a day, which is what is supposed to keep the game at least somewhat balanced for players with lots of time versus players with little time. Energy Drinks are far too cheap.

@Pinche - most of what you said is correct, but I'm not the Federal Reserve. In fact, I've tried my hardest not to be, opting instead to leave it to the players wherever possible. Let's look at the development evolution of the Island's economy as it applies to Iitems, eBoy's and Crates.

iitems_eboy.php originally had two values which it looked at in the master iitems array. eboy_min and eboy_max. I set these values myself, and eBoy would randomly decide a price in each outpost for that iitem that was between eboy_min and eboy_max. This made for a system that was more interesting than the previous Season One Trading module, but it meant I still had to set the prices myself.

iitems_eboy_intelligent.php, which is the version we're using now (and, bar minor tweaking, the version that has always been live on the Island), took matters out of my hands by making every single item the same price to begin with and then automatically and independently adjusting the prices, giving eBoy enough AI to sell his products for the highest amount that most players were willing to pay. This wouldn't have worked too well in Season One, where the payout difference between a Lv1 monster and a Lv15 monster was so hilariously unbalanced that a lv15 player wouldn't have thought twice about blowing ten grand on a teleporter - but with the new, more flattened payout scale that will be addressed more comprehensively when I rewrite the combat system for S3, it works well enough. So, the players now collectively decide the prices at eBoy's.

iitems_crates.php originally spawned [$crates=get_module_setting("cratesperday")] crates onto the map at each new game day. It was a setting that I had to adjust manually - I knew that at some point I was going to have to tie this into player numbers or do something similar in order to have it self-adjusting, or I was going to have a lot of work to do. Each Crate contains between 4 and 12 iitems, and the chances of each iitem category showing up are calculated like this (pseudocode follows):

PHP Formatted Code

Pick a number between four and twelve.
Get all the IItems in the game, and look at their "cratefind" variable.
For each iitem, put a number of marbles into a bag equal to their "cratefind" number, after deciding what colour marble corresponds to which iitem.  For example, to represent Bang Grenades we would put a hundred red marbles into the bag, for One-Shot Teleporters we put in forty purple marbles, and so on.
Shake up the bag.
Draw out one marble.
Put that iitem in the crate.
Repeat until we reach the number we decided earlier.
 


iitems_crates.php v.20090927 added the "bonus" setting, which fires whenever a donation is made, multiplying the donation amount by the "bonus" setting and instantly adding that number of Crates to the map. I ran with this for a day before removing the base value altogether in favour of increasing the donation bonus value. So, the number of crates added to the World Map each day is now left up to the players.

The only things that remain in my control are the maximum and minimum number of iitems in each Crate, the number of Crates spawned per donation dollar, and the odds of any given iitem type showing up. I'm still thinking of ways to relinquish that control to the players too.

So, if you want eBoy's prices to drop, toss a couple of bucks in the slot, go Crate hunting and sell your items to eBoy. There are far, far more Crates on the World Map these days, to counter the automatic cutoff. Once I get the EDK system sorted out, players will have even more incentive to sell items back to eBoy, and prices will likely plummet until I reduce the number of crates per donation dollar.

The economy will settle back down again. Smile


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 03:52 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Quote by: Zekiel


I've figured the prices at eBoy's work roughly as follows:

Every settlement has a 11 constants defined, 1 for every commodity. The way prices are defined is by a hyperbolic equation, with the current stock of the commodity as independant variable. A hyperbole's formula is: y = k / x, where k is a constant. (In this case, 88 constants, one for each commodity in each settlement.) The k for 'buying at' is the k for 'selling at' * 0.70 rounded off. At very low numbers of stock, it's multiplied with 0.50 instead, to prevent infinite money loops from buying and selling a single item over and over. The graph below shows a hyperbole with k = 1. Imagine stock to be on the x axis, and prices to be on the y axis.



While changing the mechanics of how stock is filled and emptied determines the prices, and changing these mechanics 'the wrong way' will inevitably lead to them skyrocketing, the prices can be changed by editting the formula as well.

You could try y = k / (x+a), effectively shifting the graph left 'a' steps.

You could try y^2 = k / x, or y = sqrt( k / x ), effectively flattening the entire graph and making absolute differences between 'x = low' and 'x = high' smaller without losing your hyperbolic properties. You'd have to adjust k to keep the horizontal asymptote roughly the same, but that's the same simple conversion for all 88 constants.

You could try combining the two or doing whatever else your mathletic brain inspires you to. I'm no expert at balancing games (or at math for that matter), just spewing thoughts and suggestions. If we all keep cracking skulls on this, we'll come up with something most people will like. Unfortunately, as is always the problem with making decisions, not everyone will like the new better than the old, but sometimes change for the sake of change isn't per definition a bad thing. It's what makes evolution work, and we all know what came of that.



Oh yeah - I forgot to mention. This isn't how eBoy's works at all. eBoy's algo is actually about a billion times simpler, but the values it relies on are in the hands of large numbers of human beings, which makes it seem far more complex and unpredictable than it actually is, and causes clever people to come up with suitably complex explanations. Mr. Green

(as a complete aside, have I mentioned lately how much I appreciate the fact that my game is filled with intelligent people? Have you seen the players in those mafia-type PBBG's?)


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 04:50 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

I think the majority of that went over my head.

However, I do have this to ask,

"Ten crates per dollar?"


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 04:56 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

That seems a rather large amount of crates put into the system when put up to the amount of reck one dollar will afford you.

Hell, one dollar equals 2,000 reck, but the amount of money put into this economy,

Supposing ten crates added, 20% of them will have one one-shot, (Or whatever the percentage is,) That means that two crates will have a one-shot (Probability speaking.) Which is worth roughly 4k. This adds double the amount of reck into the system than is set by donator points alone.

I'm not sure exactly why I'm pointing this out, I have no conclusion to it, (I'm not an Economist,) but somehow that feels strange to me. Influx of massive amounts of reck in the previous season was a problem. Somehow I worry about it again, and I'm unsure why.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 05:05 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Stimulus! It's a temporary stimulus until eBoy's recovers from the effects of the Rookie Storm! Temporary! Mr. Green


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 05:06 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Ah. That makes more sense.

Incidentally, are there any other things being done to reduce the server load? I don't even play the first half-hour that the day begins simply because it's dirt slow.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 09:47 PM
By: Someone too lazy to log in

Content:

Quote by: Pinche+Cabron


One thing about putting a limitation on the use of energy drinks: It's going to put a severe wrench in attempts to get a 1 day DK. Those that have already achieved this rare distinction didn't have to face such a limitation (and what's more, I imagine they also had cheaper drinks).


Psst, CMJ didn't want a 1 day DK to be possible with the stamina system. It got ridiculous in S1 when near everyone after 20 DKs could make one, and even higher people didn't even have to try. Thus, he made the stamina system so no one should ever 1 day DK again.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 07:25 PM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

Now I know why I hit so many crates today, when all I was trying to do was burn off some stamina by running around in the jungle and swimming in the ocean. Huzzah for the Crate Stimulus Plan. I'm definitely voting for Caveman Joe at the next election.

And Zolotisty, I feel my criticism was honest and direct, and I didn't call names. I'm reading the post I criticized as a troll at worst and attention seeking at best, since I don't think the poster is a totally oblivious idiot. However, I could be wrong, and if so, I apologize.

One thing about putting a limitation on the use of energy drinks: It's going to put a severe wrench in attempts to get a 1 day DK. Those that have already achieved this rare distinction didn't have to face such a limitation (and what's more, I imagine they also had cheaper drinks).


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: October 01 2009 @ 01:13 AM
By: omenesia

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe


Oh yeah - I forgot to mention. This isn't how eBoy's works at all. eBoy's algo is actually about a billion times simpler, but the values it relies on are in the hands of large numbers of human beings, which makes it seem far more complex and unpredictable than it actually is, and causes clever people to come up with suitably complex explanations. Mr. Green

(as a complete aside, have I mentioned lately how much I appreciate the fact that my game is filled with intelligent people? Have you seen the players in those mafia-type PBBG's?)



I have.:X (And I have to say that the community of players that I've seen in the game and the forums is really enjoyable as a fellow player.)
--
I'm generally content to wait and see how the changes work themselves out for the moment. The economy is being quickly tossed around because of the newbstorm and from the addition of robots and jokers. And with at least one of the variables linked to the raw population count upping prices, it may take a while for eBoy's stock to rise to levels where prices are again what veteran players are used to.

Even though I'm not a big user of Energy Drinks, I can see how other players could be quite reliant on them now that I'm going through as a Robot, and I would expect that playing as a Joker might be similar. And I'm hesitant to say that a limit on the would be a great idea. (Seperate from the achievement of 1 day DKs)


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: September 30 2009 @ 11:43 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

The joker thing is a bug, ignore it.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: October 01 2009 @ 02:52 AM
By: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Content:

Does overuse of Energy Drinks lead to a debuff like the Nicotine Withdrawal debuff? If so, the text at New Day could read:

You wake up feeling quite disoriented, with a terrible taste in your mouth. You soon realize your teeth are rotting out of your mouth. Must have been all those sugary Energy Drinks. And the noticeable lack of proper oral hygiene and dentists on the Island doesn't really help. You really, really should get a pair of dentures. And a breath mint.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: October 01 2009 @ 03:38 AM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

Quote by: Someone too lazy to log in

Quote by: Pinche+Cabron


One thing about putting a limitation on the use of energy drinks: It's going to put a severe wrench in attempts to get a 1 day DK. Those that have already achieved this rare distinction didn't have to face such a limitation (and what's more, I imagine they also had cheaper drinks).


Psst, CMJ didn't want a 1 day DK to be possible with the stamina system. It got ridiculous in S1 when near everyone after 20 DKs could make one, and even higher people didn't even have to try. Thus, he made the stamina system so no one should ever 1 day DK again.



Well, Psst, the horse already left the barn, and CMJ most likely knows that players have already accomplished a one-day DK. (Just a wild guess!) As things stand now, it might be somewhere between very challenging to near impossible, but I'd like a shot at the distinction. If Joe really wanted to make it completely impossible, he could have done so, instead of advertising the fact that it is possible in the Hall of Fame.

CMJ, maybe you could clear up this issue. Did you indeed know that the 1-day DK barrier had been broken, or was there a conspiracy of silence that kept you in the dark?


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: October 01 2009 @ 12:19 PM
By: Zekiel

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Zekiel


I've figured the prices at eBoy's work roughly as follows:

(snip snip)

A hyperbole's formula is: y = k / x, where k is a constant. (In this case, 88 constants, one for each commodity in each settlement.)

(snip snip)



Oh yeah - I forgot to mention. This isn't how eBoy's works at all. eBoy's algo is actually about a billion times simpler, but the values it relies on are in the hands of large numbers of human beings, which makes it seem far more complex and unpredictable than it actually is, and causes clever people to come up with suitably complex explanations. Mr. Green

(as a complete aside, have I mentioned lately how much I appreciate the fact that my game is filled with intelligent people? Have you seen the players in those mafia-type PBBG's?)



Really? Behold the simplified formula you gave us before.

eBoy's prices = ($players/$stock)*$demandmultiplier

This says exactly the same as...

eBoy's prices = ($players*$demandmultiplier)/$stock

So where I faultily said k is 88 constants, it's actually 88 variables, which are the products of $players and $demandmultiplier. For as long as this product is constant (e.g. doesn't change when $stock does), this still describes a hyperbolic relationship. Wink I can only wonder how the function that determines (and changes) $demandmultiplier works, though. Also, is $players the amount of players online, the total amount of players in the settlement, the amount of online players in a settlement, or another amount of players?

The changes proposed to the formula in my previous post can still be applied, but perhaps adjusting eBoy's AI to determine what people are willing to cough up for goods (determining the $demandmultiplier) would be a more fitting solution. Maybe shorten the timespan from which he uses input to calculate the prices? Then again, it could be that he's been programmed smart enough to deal with it as soon as the n00bstorm is put to a halt...


Pinchy said...Well, Psst, the horse already left the barn, and CMJ most likely knows that players have already accomplished a one-day DK. (Just a wild guess!) As things stand now, it might be somewhere between very challenging to near impossible, but I'd like a shot at the distinction. If Joe really wanted to make it completely impossible, he could have done so, instead of advertising the fact that it is possible in the Hall of Fame.

CMJ, maybe you could clear up this issue. Did you indeed know that the 1-day DK barrier had been broken, or was there a conspiracy of silence that kept you in the dark?


Broken? It's been shattered. By 5 different people so far, and a sixth (Sir Cabron) and seventh (Sir Zekiel) are planning and preparing to join the glorious overachievers.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: October 14 2009 @ 05:35 PM
By: Jarek+Bone

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Stimulus! It's a temporary stimulus until eBoy's recovers from the effects of the Rookie Storm! Temporary! Mr. Green



So how do the crates work now, are they still like that?


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 01 2009 @ 01:59 PM
By: Zekiel

Content:

It's been a while since the economy received attention. Time to necro this thread.

Since the implementation of the crate-based economy (or the removal of eBoy's automatic restocks -- they went hand in hand), a lot of stuff has been going on. Prices skyrocketed because of the sudden drop in supply. The addition of Chronospheres triggered a big wave of donations so thankfully they went back down again, and time will tell if the donations keep coming steadily enough for the prices to stay at acceptable levels. Energy Drinks were nerfed somewhere along the line, so they're actually cheaper than they were before 'cause their demand has dropped tremendously. So why come in to revive this dead thread?

One-Shot Teleporters.

At the time of this writing, there's a total of 90 teleporters on the island, spread over the 8 settlements. That's an average of 11 teleporters in each eBoy's. The prices for these teleporters range from 7563 (NewHome and New Pittsburgh) to 16207 Req (Pleasantville).

Something has to be done about this, I believe. Doubt this was intentional. (Or rather, hope it's not intentional, 'cause it sucks hairy midget balls.) An easy fix for this problem would be to manually restock eBoy's once, to, I don't know, 5 or 10 times the current stock. That would only provide a 1-time solution though. Something else has to be changed to make One-Shot Preservation sustainable. I propose increasing the chances of finding them in crates -- the crate system appears to be sustaining the rest of the economy fairly nicely.

Simply increasing the encounter-rates of teleporters automatically means decreasing the odds of finding other things, though. This means that, without compensating for this, there is a chance the subtle balance the other items' stocks are in might get toppled. The easy way out of this one is reducing the odds of finding another object by as much as you increase the odds of finding teleporters. My suggestion would be Nicotine Gum, 'cause its stocks are absolutely insane and nobody likes finding them anyway.

(Note that this does increase the average value of crates, which may cause inflation problems of its own. I doubt this will go out of hand as badly as the teleporter prices have though.)


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 01 2009 @ 05:43 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

The reason teleporter costs are so outrageous is that very few of them are being sold back to eBoy's. Most of them are being used for drive searches, or destroyed after a DK.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 01 2009 @ 06:12 PM
By: Zekiel

Content:

Exactly. Many people use several teleporters per DK. Crates simply don't supply the island with enough of them, hence my suggestion to crank up this supply.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 01 2009 @ 07:39 PM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine

The reason teleporter costs are so outrageous is that very few of them are being sold back to eBoy's. Most of them are being used for drive searches, or destroyed after a DK.



Which is exactly why I suggested the whole giving back thing.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 01 2009 @ 08:21 PM
By: Aeridus

Content:

Frankly, I've just been using the Monster Repellent Spray. I still encounter the odd monster here and there, but my stamina is leveled up enough so that it's fairly inexpensive to travel. Also, the spray lasts for an entire in-game day, so it's easy to just buy one and use it when I'm ready to go drive hunting. No economy loss there.

I really do like the idea someone else put forth, that in addition to Clan Buffs we could also buy zipwires between different towns, or something. I think it would be better to not have it depend on a maxed out clan buff because it's really just a separate thing to spend cigs on. This would enable power players (who are usually in high-level clans) to decide to sell Teleporters back into the economy for low-level players to enjoy.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 01 2009 @ 08:22 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: K.K.+Victoria

Quote by: Count+Sessine

The reason teleporter costs are so outrageous is that very few of them are being sold back to eBoy's. Most of them are being used for drive searches, or destroyed after a DK.



Which is exactly why I suggested the whole giving back thing.


That would help, some, but it wouldn't solve the problem. Zekiel's right, the total supply is much too small.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 01 2009 @ 11:15 PM
By: Zekiel

Content:

Quote by: Count+Sessine... Zekiel's right, ...
Woohoo! I love it when I'm right!

I like the idea of ziplines as an alternative to teleporters. If fixing teleporters proves less feasible or simple than I assumed when suggesting a solution, putting this in would be great. I would zip up and down between Squat Hole and Pleasantville daily. It'd be like commuting! Big Grin

I would imagine there's all sorts of stuff that can go wrong when using it, of course, but having the option of paying a set amount of Req to travel to a nearby settlement would be sweet. (Not to mention the effect it would have on imposing a soft limit on One-Shot prices!


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 02 2009 @ 06:38 PM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

I like the idea of there being alternate forms of transportation that could take the pressure off the one-shot supply. Maybe other mounts. Personally, I'd really like to see Rocket Skates™.

Or a one-use-a-day portal in the comms tent that would take you to a random outpost, for 1/10th the price of a one-shot.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 02 2009 @ 09:25 PM
By: Symar

Content:

Quote by: Pinche+Cabron

I like the idea of there being alternate forms of transportation that could take the pressure off the one-shot supply. Maybe other mounts. Personally, I'd really like to see Rocket Skates™.

Or a one-use-a-day portal in the comms tent that would take you to a random outpost, for 1/10th the price of a one-shot.



Well, if Kittybikes are going to be anything liek their S1 counterparts, they'll have some pretty good travel discounts.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 03 2009 @ 02:39 AM
By: monsterzero

Content:

Quote by: Pinche+Cabron


Or a one-use-a-day portal in the comms tent that would take you to a random outpost, for 1/10th the price of a one-shot.



I'd like a once-a-day Joker teleport power that puts you in a completely random location, i.e. on one of the 1000 squares in the world.

Sorta like the Hyperspace button in Asteroids. You could get where you want to go, or end up much farther away. Jokers everywhere! Wheee!!


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 03 2009 @ 12:23 PM
By: Zekiel

Content:

Not too fond of the idea of random transportation, but I believe it's safe to conclude people want more travel options. I would, however, much prefer the current options to be fixed first. One-Shots are broken at the moment. (Their prices are, at least, which is caused by their supply being broken.) Dan! Save our sou-- Err, wallets!


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 04 2009 @ 07:10 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

I've increased the rate of one-shots appearing in Crates. It'll take some time for this change to trickle down through the nailboard of Improbable Island's economy.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 07 2009 @ 05:10 PM
By: monsterzero

Content:

Are donations still dropping crates? I donated $20 more than an hour ago. The DP showed up right away, but I've spent a lot of time traveling around in obscure locations and not found a single crate. If 200 crates were dropped, shouldn't I be hitting one every five squares or so?


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 07 2009 @ 07:58 PM
By: Symar

Content:

I thought it was 1 per dollar. So 20 crates.


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 07 2009 @ 08:16 PM
By: monsterzero

Content:

Quote by: Symar

I thought it was 1 per dollar. So 20 crates.



Nope.

From MoTD 2009-10-15:
Previously, we dropped twelve crates at the start of each new game day. Now, we drop ten crates for every dollar that anyone donates, at the time they make their donation - since we're getting more than a buck per game day in donations (woo!) this means that there are a lot more Crates to be found!


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 07 2009 @ 08:41 PM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

What's the latest on this? Did you reach crate nirvana, MØ? (btw, that's the second time I've called you MØ. I hope you don't mind. I think it looks rather bad ass.)


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 07 2009 @ 11:53 PM
By: monsterzero

Content:

Quote by: Pinche+Cabron

What's the latest on this? Did you reach crate nirvana, MØ? (btw, that's the second time I've called you MØ. I hope you don't mind. I think it looks rather bad ass.)



I didn't find any crates and gave up after an hour and a half. A similar thing happened the day or so after the 10-15 announcement. I upgraded my pack and timed the drop for just before the New Day. My DP showed up immediately, I traveled all around the Island and got no crates at all for half an hour. Then I got four crates in a fairly short span of time, but at that point I was out of stamina and New Days. So maybe there was a delay and then other people got them? But the MoTD says "at the time you make your donation".

I did find a few crates today, but as far as I can tell, the drop last night never happened.

(Yeah, I prefer mØ to m0 but there's actually a 0 on my keyboard so that's what I end up using.)


Re: Crate lists feedback: :-(

Posted on: November 08 2009 @ 06:28 PM
By: Pinche+Cabron

Content:

Quote by: monsterzero

Quote by: Pinche+Cabron

What's the latest on this? Did you reach crate nirvana, MØ? (btw, that's the second time I've called you MØ. I hope you don't mind. I think it looks rather bad ass.)



I didn't find any crates and gave up after an hour and a half. A similar thing happened the day or so after the 10-15 announcement. I upgraded my pack and timed the drop for just before the New Day. My DP showed up immediately, I traveled all around the Island and got no crates at all for half an hour. Then I got four crates in a fairly short span of time, but at that point I was out of stamina and New Days. So maybe there was a delay and then other people got them? But the MoTD says "at the time you make your donation".

I did find a few crates today, but as far as I can tell, the drop last night never happened.

(Yeah, I prefer mØ to m0 but there's actually a 0 on my keyboard so that's what I end up using.)



I've had similar experiences, but not with that large a donation to seed the field prior to crate hunting. I'm putting in 2 or three bucks at a time. Most of the time I'm getting between 6 and 10 crates (when filled up with a couple or three steaks), but a few times I've got zero or one crate.


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