Subject: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 04 2009 @ 02:25 AM
By: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Content:

This request has been made many times now, but I will make it again:

Can the Clan membership limit be increased? I miss having huge 50-player Clans.

What is the reasoning behind the 20-member limit? Is it to keep a select few Clans from becoming too powerful?

Last Season, there were 5 very powerful Clans:
CDAG, SWEET, DICE, SPOON, and QQQ. There was plenty of room in these Clans for players to join.


So, Dan, could you make it happen?



Replies:

Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 04 2009 @ 02:37 AM
By: Adder+Moray

Content:

As the leader of a start-up clan that only began this season, I, personally, like the limit.

For one, it forces you to really think about who you want to allow in.

For two, honestly, how many people are going to join that new clan that just started up the other day when the uber-clan with 40 people in it and every buff active is willing to accept them?

Finally, I find the environment to be warmer than I think it'd be if the clans were massive.

But, that's just the 2 cents of a relatively new member.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 04 2009 @ 03:30 AM
By: Jon+Bishop

Content:

I like the smaller cap in season 2, myself.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 04 2009 @ 04:11 AM
By: Paul+Lo

Content:

I like the later 20-members limit.

I'd say the same as the others about its advantages, plus it forces some of us to interact to peaople out of the Clan Hall (which is a good thing. believe me.)
And it permits to choose who is joining; that's important for me.

Our favorite caveman changed that for good reasons; let us revel in His wisdom (and faults. Don't forget that) and whine about more essentially needed changes like being able to save 6 or more game-days and bug-squashing.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 04 2009 @ 04:38 AM
By: Massic

Content:

Quote by: Paul+Lo

I like the later 20-members limit.

I'd say the same as the others about its advantages, plus it forces some of us to interact to peaople out of the Clan Hall (which is a good thing. believe me.)
And it permits to choose who is joining; that's important for me.

Our favorite caveman changed that for good reasons; let us revel in His wisdom (and faults. Don't forget that) and whine about more essentially needed changes like being able to save 6 or more game-days and bug-squashing.


Here, here on all accounts. Although my own preference for Divine CaveDweller focus would be of a more ... mutated ... nature.

Awesome job with the Jokers BTW, I actually enjoy them as much as (possibly a little more than) my speed-killing midgets Big Grin


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 04 2009 @ 07:23 AM
By: K.K.+Victoria

Content:

Agree on the 20 cap.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 04 2009 @ 07:25 AM
By: Rosin

Content:

Ah yes, the twenty member cap. Suffice to say, as a leader of a clan that started up early this Season, I'm rather ambivalent toward the limit. It slows buff progression considerably for everyone outside of (cheatingbasta- I mean, Epaphus.)

While this is annoying, it also means that I need to have a bit more communication with my members in order to coordinate things correctly, which means you are able to make very tightly knit clans.

Ramble on,
Ros out.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 05 2009 @ 03:43 PM
By: Epaphus

Content:

Quote by: Rosin

(cheatingbasta- I mean, Epaphus.)



Aw, Rosin, you sweet-talker--you always make me blush!


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 05 2009 @ 06:12 PM
By: Zekiel

Content:

Surprised! That's silly. Don't think I've ever seen the chief blush before. Confused


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 05 2009 @ 06:46 PM
By: TEAPARTY AFTERBIRTHER

Content:

I think this is a great post and a really bad idea.

In one of those self-referential strange loopy ironies, the OP illustrates exactly WHY clans need to be selective. It's an object lesson. New clans take heed about who you allow to join, or you'll wind up with some effed up player no one really likes.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 05 2009 @ 10:35 PM
By: Epaphus

Content:

Quote by: TEAPARTY AFTERBIRTHER

New clans take heed about who you allow to join, or you'll wind up with some effed up player no one really likes.



For clan leaders, there's an "In Case of Effed Up Player" box mounted next to the membership board. Break the glass and pull the lever, and the effed up player is ejected from the clan. It's kinda fun sometimes to sit back and watch 'em popping out the top of the clan halls, kinda like jet-propelled waffles* only with less syrup.
_____

* Mmmm--waffles!


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 05 2009 @ 10:44 PM
By: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Content:

I suggest the max number be increased to 25 or so. Nothing major.

SWEET can only support so many Sister Clans. We already have SUGAR, SPICE, and SOUR, and they're all completely filled. Besides, we'd have 100 people if Max Number was 25.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 05 2009 @ 11:03 PM
By: Rosin

Content:

Quote by: Epaphus


For clan leaders, there's an "In Case of Effed Up Player" box mounted next to the membership board.



Yeah, I've seen that big lever. Couldn't ever find out exactly where the spring panel was, though, so it's been kinda difficult ejecting the ones who've been asleep for nearly a month. Sad to see 'em go, but it's also just so funny.


Anyway. Unless you've sold an elderly family member who raised you since birth (coughcoughepaphuscough ;P), then the limit does hamper the progression of Clan Buffs a bit. But that's not such a big deal any more, at least to me, though I do like pushing the little levers and watching the ciggies tumble away to wherever.

So, small clans are fine. 20-30 members is a nice controllable size, and at 20 you have the opportunity to actually interact with all your members. Or at least try.

Now I'm off, to get this cough looked at.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 05 2009 @ 11:08 PM
By: Epaphus

Content:

Rosin: Does it have to be an elderly family member? Prices on eBay are better for the younger ones.

Anyway, a limit of 25 sounds manageable to me.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 05 2009 @ 11:22 PM
By: Rosin

Content:

Well, it depends on if they also raised you from birth. If a younger sibling did that, you'd best keep them around for work at your own house. It'd be a much better investment that way.

The Uberklans of last season, such as (which I was a proud officer of back in the day when it was still Rockin' Into Mordor), were a bit... Well, very unwieldy and hard to manage.

I believe, however, that 25 people would be nice and manageable. It's a 25% increase to our current limit, and 50% of last season's (excluding those breaks such as when SWEET had about 100 for a week).

It might be a bitch to code though, and it'll be down the list in that case. But if it's just simply changing a 0 to a 5 somewhere, I approve.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 06 2009 @ 03:21 AM
By: Jon+Bishop

Content:

Disagree on 25, I'd rather it just stay how it is.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 06 2009 @ 07:47 AM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

(It was CIA that used the loophole to get up to 73 members. SWEET, QQQ, and SPOON leaders knew about the exploit too, I believe, but never went above 53. SPOON, I know, never exceeded 50.)

Rosin, you're absolutely right that a 50-member clan is very hard to manage. Very hard to get everyone involved and caring and doing active things in the clan. At its most active, I would say SPOON had... hmm, maybe ten or fifteen members at most who really participated in clan life. The 20-member limit does pinch a bit, especially when you're full up and there's this Wonderful New Person you're dying to have.

But... I have to admit that would happen at 25, too.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 06 2009 @ 10:28 AM
By: Reverb

Content:

There was a caterpillar with this specific problem around not that long ago. And we all know what happened to that one! *cue dark clouds, lightning, and a howling wolf in the distance*









Yes, yes, i know. He was added to the mass and raised with love and care to turn into Eric the butterfly. THATS NOT THE POINT.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 01:39 PM
By: calliaphone

Content:

Ok, so, coming very late to this debate, but having thought about it rather a lot...

I would like to state a preference for larger clans (or even unlimited clans, or, clans where the leader could set their own size limit).

I know that there were problems with large clans in Season 1, and I don't know the full details. But from what I've heard, it sounded like the problems stemmed from the fact that clans could compete for ownership of outposts (with large clans being more likely to win), and that clans-in-possession got significant gameplay advantages for their members.

Maybe I've got that wrong - if so, please feel free to clarify. But if I've understood it right ... then, since we no longer have the option for clans to wield power thus ... what would be the harm in letting them get as big as they wanted to?

I can certainly think of some advantages from a role-play perspective.

1) New members keep the clan community fresh - new personalities to play off, new ideas, new stories - it's like oxygen. But when a clan hits 20, leaders can be faced with a tough choice: hold onto their established players, or let new people in? If they opt for the former, there's a risk of things getting static. If the latter, then quiet or intermittent players, who still have much to offer, may feel obliged to leave a clan they love, "for the good of the clan".

2) Established players, if they were aware they have space to recruit, would have an extra motive to take an interest in newcomers to the island. This would lead to newcomers becoming aware they're being watched and recruited, and the whole thing would help foster a sense of audience and interest among the RP community.

3) Established clans, not ever being full, would be able to continue welcoming new members into their sub-community, and integrating them into whatever the clan's style of RP happens to be at that moment.

I guess, on the flip side, there's a risk of clans acquiring unwanted members. But this can happen anyway. Clan leaders can still be selective, even if they don't have a quota - it's just more of a conscious choice. Likewise, there's a risk of cliqueyness and sub-sub-communities forming - but this also happens anyway - especially since dwellings. That's just a feature of communities. I personally think it's more welcoming to have the freedom to say to people "sure, we've got room", and healthier for clans to be able to grow and evolve without constraint.

So I know it's been a while since this last got talked about, and opinion seemed to be against it then, but time has passed, and I'd personally would love to see the size-limit removed from clans.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 02:18 PM
By: Reverb

Content:

This would lead to newcomers becoming aware they're being watched
What gave me away? It was the camera's, wasn't it? Damnit.

From a roleplaying perspective; the Bingo Hall needs all the inhabitants (non-consentual work-slaves) it can get


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 05:15 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Quote by: Giuseppe+Lorenzo

Last Season, there were 5 very powerful Clans



This is why we have the member limit.

Hey, anyone remember the Pilot? There was only one clan, there.

I might at some point make a feature where clans can pay cigarettes for bigger Clan Halls, but even that will have a very high cost that increases exponentially with more available slots.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 07:21 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe

I might at some point make a feature where clans can pay cigarettes for bigger Clan Halls, but even that will have a very high cost that increases exponentially with more available slots.

Thus turning the game-provided clan hall into something like a... dwelling? Hm.

We do need, have long needed, something interesting that clans can focus on, when Buffs Are Not The Purpose. What that is -- has to be very carefully chosen; last season demonstrated how very easily a simple req-based competition between clans can go awry.

Here are some of my thoughts:

-- It should be set up to spark player creativity. Objectives defined by the code are inherently repetitive. Even if they're complicated, they will eventually, inevitably, stop being interesting. Human ingenuity is ... well, not endless. (Groups of people can still exhaust the possibilities of each others' ideas and go stale -- that's why this topic is popping up again now.) But it does provide a lot more scope.

-- It should reward clan members working together to create something positive that helps the Island be more fun for everyone. The reward should be intangible: the prestige of having done something lasting that others can admire and enjoy.

Buildings have been drafted into serving as this purpose, for a number of clans. The improbablehousing code wasn't written with that in mind; there are a number of structures on the Island that are, by common agreement, clan halls -- but the code still treats these as belonging to the single player character who first drove the stake into the ground. It would not be impossible to retrofit dwellings to allow for clan ownership. (Add an 'ownedbyclan' field? It'd still be a fair bit of fiddly detail work, incorporating various clan privileges.)

Where this would really start to show its potential would be in combination with Devin's "Signs" feature that -- he assures me -- he has almost finished coding, and is about to submit for evaluation and... maybe? beta testing.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 08:28 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Yup, we'll be doing that. Smile Probably a Season 2.5 thing, when we turn all the buildings in the game into Buildings...

Oh, and in the meantime - yeah, to hell with "I might at some point", I've just done the pay-for-bigger-member-cap thing. Testing it now. Shouldn't be too unbalancing, given the costs.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 08:48 PM
By: Mack

Content:

O_O That was fast. When you say you'd like to do something you really hop to it.

I look forward to seeing this. (Not that my whole 3 person clan needs it.)


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 08:49 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

AND IT IS LIVE.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 08:55 PM
By: KimmyMonstah

Content:

Hooray!

*goes to get some popcorn to watch people flock to GERM and DICE*


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 09:29 PM
By: dizzyizzy

Content:

Hang on a tic. Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing the incentive of parting with more ciggies. What's in this for me? I mean, it's not like I only interact with people in my clan. sorry for being a bit selfish, but I'm not seeing the logic in donating.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 09:42 PM
By: Mack

Content:

For the future. Clan buildings will be a real and viable place, with their own effects for clan members only. Once this happens, chances are there will be the need for more clan members.

Not to mention, some people want to be in certain clans.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 09:43 PM
By: Adder+Moray

Content:

Quote by: dizzyizzy

Hang on a tic. Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing the incentive of parting with more ciggies. What's in this for me? I mean, it's not like I only interact with people in my clan. sorry for being a bit selfish, but I'm not seeing the logic in donating.



Theeeeeeeennnnnn don't, maybe?


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 09:44 PM
By: Escemfer

Content:

Quote by: dizzyizzy

Hang on a tic. Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing the incentive of parting with more ciggies. What's in this for me? I mean, it's not like I only interact with people in my clan. sorry for being a bit selfish, but I'm not seeing the logic in donating.



Pretty much just a cig sink, dizzy. After a while, active DKers make oodles upon oodles of cigs, and have run out of awesome things to spend them on. And a lot of those DKers are in clans that have already got maxed-out buffs. It's something new to invest in.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 09:55 PM
By: dizzyizzy

Content:

Quote by: Escemfer

Quote by: dizzyizzy

Hang on a tic. Maybe I missed something, but I'm not seeing the incentive of parting with more ciggies. What's in this for me? I mean, it's not like I only interact with people in my clan. sorry for being a bit selfish, but I'm not seeing the logic in donating.



Pretty much just a cig sink, dizzy. After a while, active DKers make oodles upon oodles of cigs, and have run out of awesome things to spend them on. And a lot of those DKers are in clans that have already got maxed-out buffs. It's something new to invest in.



Alright, thanks. I was just wondering if I had missed something.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 10:56 PM
By: calliaphone

Content:

Wow, thankyou CMJ for this rapid change - i'm very excited to know there's now increased flexibility, for clans that are nearing full.

As for Sessine's points...I agree that clans need more than just new people to keep the role-play fresh. Finding ways to offset repetitiveness in the game world demands a lot of creativity, and help with this would be very welcome indeed.

Also, just some wish-list items of mine regarding owned-by-clan buildings (if that comes about):

- I dunno how hard/easy any of this is to code, but it'd be really nice if these could be accessed from the clan-halls as well (perhaps without the "exit to map" option, to prevent it being used for free travel?).

- And, i know i've said before but since it's relevant to the clan-spirit/role-play issue i'll mention it again here - for those of us who've got a bit carried away and built monstrously big clan-hall dwellings ... being able to see, in the contestant list, which room your clan-mates/friends were in, would be really helpful to role-play.





Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 11:35 PM
By: Bakemaster

Content:

Quote by: calliaphone

3) Established clans, not ever being full, would be able to continue welcoming new members into their sub-community, and integrating them into whatever the clan's style of RP happens to be at that moment.


I'm going to jump in here to say that the above is one of the big reasons for my firm opposition to the idea of increasing the clan member limit. (Also at this time I would like to mention that I've been writing this post in fits and starts between classes today, and when I started it Dan hadn't suddenly popped in and implemented the new upgrade option... but I'm going to post [most of] it anyway!)

I understand that people in an active, fun clan want to have friends and be happy-go-lucky and promote their own community. At the same time, I wish players would give more thought to the broader effects their clan may have on the Island as a whole. A large clan is very attractive and very beneficial to individuals, particularly in terms of shared buffs and information. It makes sense that new players want to join up, and the larger it is, the more attractive. At the same time, though, I think overly large clans have some demonstrably negative effects on a community as compact as this one.

If the folks in the SWEET network will indulge me in a little friendly (and hopefully constructive) criticism, I'd like to use their clan structure as an example to illustrate what I mean. Please understand that this is not an attack on any player or any group of players, just an intellectual analysis of the clan structure. Those who know me a little by now, know that I'm not big on drama and I tend to be direct, so I hope those who don't know me to that extent will trust that if I am brusque, I mean no offense.

I see in the SWEET network a set of clans that have grown from the same origin, which operate as a centrally administered unit, and have a relatively homogeneous flavor (if you'll pardon the pun). I know from experience that their membership comprises many talented, exciting, creative people; I would love for them to bring that talent, excitement and creativity to the forefront with respect to the greater IIsland community by creating or joining clans that have unique, varied and individual identities. I really enjoy reading new clan descriptions, finding clan buildings, learning about how each group operates in its own way. So, I find it somewhat disappointing that several of the most active clans in the game are actually just iterations of one uber-clan, when there are more than enough players between them, with more than enough vim and vigor (though I can't make any claims vis-a-vis pulchritude) to populate several interesting clans of their own, the existence of which would only further enrich the IIsland, as well as SWEET itself. Long story short: The more our clans expand in size, the fewer of them we're likely to have, and the less interesting the community becomes.

Nobody's trying to make this place boring (nor could they possibly succeed), and I've never seen evidence around here of any clan grabbing for power or trying to run other clans off the road, as it were. I know the motives for having bigger clans are genuine and not in the least malicious. Still, I think it's important for people to consider that rational self-interest only goes so far; the tragedy of the commons applies, here, insofar as our limited resource is the player-base of which the community is made. It's a far greater challenge to build a clan that means something with room enough for only 20 players, in a game of thousands, than to simply build as big a clan as possible, with all your stats maxed, your widgets achieved, your name spray-painted onto the world map, and so forth. I don't think there's anyone in this community who isn't up to that challenge, but it takes a certain amount of good faith. When I see players or clans try to circumvent game limitations, I see a certain amount of disregard for the creators and operators of the game. It's hard not to also take it as disrespect toward those players and clans who work with what they're given. And that's what I mean by good faith.

Does that make sense to people? I would like to know. Because sometimes I am over here ----------------------------------->
while everyone else is over there
<-----------------------------------
and it's hard for me to tell if that's the case until I get some feedback.

While I'm wall-of-texting, does anyone know what the costs are for the upgrades beyond the first? I see 200 ciggies for what looks like 20+1 members, total, but have no idea how steep the curve is from there, or whether there's another hard cap to the upgrades vs. a soft cap. And that first increase is definitely not what I'd call "expensive", especially compared to clan buffs. One DK's worth of ciggies, or less, per member. Piece of cake.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 11:43 PM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

The cost increase is 10% for each extra member. This gets expensive fast. Wink


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 18 2010 @ 11:56 PM
By: KimmyMonstah

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe

The cost increase is 10% for each extra member. This gets expensive fast. Wink



Is there even a limit anymore?
Say someone [lets name him "BickyJukebox"], has a stupidly incredible amount of ciggies.
Stupidly incredible.
Lets also say he's a uhhh...a Founder to a clan.
How far could bloody Bicky keep going?
Would there be a max of 50 or something, or could Bicky, with all his incredibly huge and seemingly-impossible amounts of ciggies, be able to just keep adding spaces for a clan?


Yes, I felt like making this more wordy and silly than it should be, exqueeze me, I'm in a rather peppy and silly mood!


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 12:29 AM
By: Tyr

Content:

Really? Only ten percent? So a 22nd member would cost you 220 cigs?

I was expecting something more like 400 for the second.

I realize I'm not a normal player by any means, but I could buy 5 slots, on my own, outright. And have almost enough for a 6th. The clans that want more spots are the clans with 20 people in them - 20 active people (or mostly active). And if they've been around for a while, they probably have cigs to burn. A 25 person clan would be child's play. A 30 person clan, maybe a bit of work, but could be achieved pretty quickly. I'll give you that a 100-member clan would be hard, but...I think you're overestimating how difficult it will be for people to get cigs together. Especially if they've got someone willing to run some Rank 7's or Bastards.

Or if they're talky.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 12:32 AM
By: Bakemaster

Content:

So the cost for n extra members is given by the sum from zero to n of 200 x 1.1^n?

For a total cost of about 3,200 ciggies to increase the cap to 30 members; 11,500 to increase the cap to 40 members; and 33,000 to increase the cap to 50 members.

I have to say, that's a hell of a lot cheaper than I was hoping it would be. The cost to 30 members is a pittance for any clan that's actually got 20 active members, especially those with buffs already maxed and ciggies to burn. The cost to 40 members is still cheaper than the cost to max out those buffs. And once you've gotten to 40, you're only looking at about 150% of the cost to max clan buffs, with twice as many members.

So we might very roughly estimate it taking a similar amount of time to double the size of your clan as to max your clan buffs, and then less time again to increase the size of the clan to 50, since you're doing 150% of the work with 200% of the manpower.

I don't see a soft cap forming here until well over 50 members. Once you've hit 50, the additional cost to reach 55 is about 420 ciggies per member, assuming the clan is full at 50; that's certainly expensive, but we've already more than doubled the size of the clan. That's an enormous change from the status quo, to say the least. We can look forward to clans that size, and larger, within a few months, I think.

I was hoping for something more like, the cost is raised to a power of 1.1 with each successive purchase. That would make the cost to increase from 20 to 30 members almost the same as the entire cost of clan buffs, and I could see a soft cap starting to form in that scenario between 35 and 45 total members. I mean, as a fan of the current 20-member limit, I'd like to see the soft cap come in even earlier than that (to the point where ten extra slots would be an epic achievement), but it's a start...

EDIT: In Tyr's case, if he's talking about a doubling function, we're looking at the sum from zero to n of 200 x 2^n:
6,200 ciggies total for 5 extra slots
25,400 ciggies total for 7 extra slots
204,600 ciggies total for 10 extra slots <-----we've definitely reached a soft cap somewhere around 30 in this case


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 12:44 AM
By: KimmyMonstah

Content:

Quote by: Tyr

Really? Only ten percent? So a 22nd member would cost you 220 cigs?

I was expecting something more like 400 for the second.

I realize I'm not a normal player by any means, but I could buy 5 slots, on my own, outright. And have almost enough for a 6th. The clans that want more spots are the clans with 20 people in them - 20 active people (or mostly active). And if they've been around for a while, they probably have cigs to burn. A 25 person clan would be child's play. A 30 person clan, maybe a bit of work, but could be achieved pretty quickly. I'll give you that a 100-member clan would be hard, but...I think you're overestimating how difficult it will be for people to get cigs together. Especially if they've got someone willing to run some Rank 7's or Bastards.

Or if they're talky.



Hurhur, exactly.

I do think that if there isn't a max cap, there should be.
Otherwise we will only have a couple clans- The ones that have had their Buffs done for a long time and most members have a dumptruck in their backyard with ciggies in it.

I'm not opposed to this whole "bigger clans" thing. But I'm not all gun-ho about it either.
30 could be a good max, I think. 50 at the most.

To be...honest? I think there are better things that people with that many ciggies could buy. What about a pair of fuzzy dice for your zombie donk, or something along those lines? Some really silly things to get could be more fun for everyone, I think!


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 01:38 AM
By: dizzyizzy

Content:

Quote by: KimmyMonstah

Quote by: Tyr

Really? Only ten percent? So a 22nd member would cost you 220 cigs?

I was expecting something more like 400 for the second.

I realize I'm not a normal player by any means, but I could buy 5 slots, on my own, outright. And have almost enough for a 6th. The clans that want more spots are the clans with 20 people in them - 20 active people (or mostly active). And if they've been around for a while, they probably have cigs to burn. A 25 person clan would be child's play. A 30 person clan, maybe a bit of work, but could be achieved pretty quickly. I'll give you that a 100-member clan would be hard, but...I think you're overestimating how difficult it will be for people to get cigs together. Especially if they've got someone willing to run some Rank 7's or Bastards.

Or if they're talky.



Hurhur, exactly.

I do think that if there isn't a max cap, there should be.
Otherwise we will only have a couple clans- The ones that have had their Buffs done for a long time and most members have a dumptruck in their backyard with ciggies in it.

I'm not opposed to this whole "bigger clans" thing. But I'm not all gun-ho about it either.
30 could be a good max, I think. 50 at the most.

To be...honest? I think there are better things that people with that many ciggies could buy. What about a pair of fuzzy dice for your zombie donk, or something along those lines? Some really silly things to get could be more fun for everyone, I think!



I second this. I like the idea of mount accessories, especially.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 02:44 AM
By: CavemanJoe

Content:

Quote by: dizzyizzyI like the idea of mount accessories, especially.[/p]


Oh, Mount Accessories. That, my friend, is a long and saddening tale.

So I wrote a Mount Addons module that worked just fine, and then I never wrote anything to go in it.

And then I rewrote it, and called it Mount Accessories - it was fast, it was powerful, it was extensible, it had hooks, it could do anything. Anything. Never wrote anything for it. But I did start writing an Item system that turned into IItems, the inventory system with which we started Season Two.

SO! Hey, Mount Accessories are items! We can put them in IItems! And so I did! The module "Mount Accessories - IItems version" was live on the server, containing absolutely no content, until I rewrote the Items system last month, breaking it.

So I've written no less than three fully-working Mount Accessories systems, each time realizing just after completing them that I'd better actually make some damn Mounts to accessorize.

This is like what happened with Creature Targets, only even more depressing.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 03:44 AM
By: dizzyizzy

Content:

Eek!

I.... *shudder* I'm sorry....


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 01:57 PM
By: Daedalus

Content:

Quote by: CavemanJoe



So I've written no less than three fully-working Mount Accessories systems, each time realizing just after completing them that I'd better actually make some damn Mounts to accessorize.

This is like what happened with Creature Targets, only even more depressing.



Eek!

Wow ... that's gotta hurt.

Not sure if it helps, but ... we love your work, CMJ, so ... don't let the rapid evolution of good ideas into even better ideas get you down.

D.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 02:24 PM
By: Count+Sessine

Content:

Quote by: Tyr

Really? Only ten percent? So a 22nd member would cost you 220 cigs?

I was expecting something more like 400 for the second.

I realize I'm not a normal player by any means, but I could buy 5 slots, on my own, outright. And have almost enough for a 6th. The clans that want more spots are the clans with 20 people in them - 20 active people (or mostly active). And if they've been around for a while, they probably have cigs to burn. A 25 person clan would be child's play. A 30 person clan, maybe a bit of work, but could be achieved pretty quickly. I'll give you that a 100-member clan would be hard, but...I think you're overestimating how difficult it will be for people to get cigs together. Especially if they've got someone willing to run some Rank 7's or Bastards.

Or if they're talky.

I have to agree with Tyr, here. The cost should be doubling for each additional space. That way, a clan will be able to add one or two more spaces if they really need to make room for someone who's important to them, but we won't see the return of mega-clans.

Roughly twenty people has turned out to be a good size. Changing the limit to a soft limit is a very nice enhancement, one that will save clan leaders a bit of agonizing, I'm sure. But "more people!" does not endlessly make for a better clan! It makes for a far lonelier clan, where it becomes harder and harder for everyone to know and be comfortable with everyone else.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 04:57 PM
By: Cousjava

Content:

I've been thinking on this for a while, and I've finally decided to throw my hat into the ring. Having weighed up all the sides of the argument* I agree with Sessine and Tyr. Smaller clans can mean more differentiation between clans, which I think would be useful. Making people choose which clan they join would improve the system by getting like people together for many, different purposes. If you made it so the clans had choose buffs from a range, but couldn't get them all,** i.e. stamina buff for building & decorating for RP clans, increased attack and defence for DK clans, so that when you joina clan you decide whether you're more bothered about getting masses of DKs or interacting with others. Smaller clans also means more different roleplaying styles, so you could get one clan of mad***, zany people (like DICE) or one of foul midgets (pure Skronkys) or of sloths.****

____________________________________

*On a set of balanced scales, no less

**I think this has been mentioned before.

***Even by improbable island standards

****I just thought sloths had to have clan. Like ostriches.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 06:17 PM
By: Tyr

Content:

Quote by: Cousjava

I've been thinking on this for a while, and I've finally decided to throw my hat into the ring. Having weighed up all the sides of the argument* I agree with Sessine and Tyr. Smaller clans can mean more differentiation between clans, which I think would be useful. Making people choose which clan they join would improve the system by getting like people together for many, different purposes. If you made it so the clans had choose buffs from a range, but couldn't get them all,** i.e. stamina buff for building & decorating for RP clans, increased attack and defence for DK clans, so that when you joina clan you decide whether you're more bothered about getting masses of DKs or interacting with others. Smaller clans also means more different roleplaying styles, so you could get one clan of mad***, zany people (like DICE) or one of foul midgets (pure Skronkys) or of sloths.****
]



But a lot of clans aren't "an RP clan" or "a DK clan." Some do both, and are happy doing both. DICE has had several members who've gotten 100 dks or more. You've got to get teh cigs to fund the building projects somehow, right?

When I first started playing, I thought of myself as someone who played the game - I DKed. That was my strength. I did some RP on the side, but I didn't think of myself as a writer. But then I was given a choice between QQQ and DICE. I was leaning toward QQQ, because they were the big DK clan at the time. And I said as much, to Pinche and Z. They both told me "We don't just do one thing. QQQ is trying to RP more, and DICE is trying to DK more. That won't help you, bucko."

Neither of them said bucko.

A clan shouldn't have to choose what kind of clan they're going to be, and then follow a path that locks them into it. People change. Goals change. And what happens if that DK powerhouse clan suddenly decides to retire and build a gym/donut stand? Should they all leave the clan, and join one with building buffs?

A clan isn't just a clan. It's the people in it. The people affect what a clan is like and what its focus is. And it's a fact that people come and go, and a clan will change over time. People should determine a clan, not the buffs.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 07:06 PM
By: crashtestpilot

Content:

Okay, I've been hanging back on this thread -- and now I see that the larger clan thing has been implemented, and of course, this is wonderful!

Just a few things re: the SWEET Network, since it's been mentioned.

a) The purpose for the Network was to continue the idea of "what happened if you threw open the doors to anyone?" IE, space for rookies, and established players alike. This was what SWEET was when I encountered it in S1, and I liked it. A lot of other clans were cliquey, but SWEET rewarded me for being an active newb, and it made me feel good. When I inherited the leaderpost from Cheshire, and things swung into S2, I wanted to continue the same legacy established by CSG, Cheshire, and their forebears.

Well, obviously, the come-one-come-all approach filled up S2 SWEET v. quickly. So, then we (and no, I did NOT do all this stuff myself; I had a lot of help from S1 SWEETers) created SUGAR, SPICE, SOUR & SAVOR in that order. Those filled up. Then we introduced the "activity requirement," to stop deadwood from piling up -- but, being SWEET, we were pretty darned lenient about all that. And still are.

b) With respect to Bakemaster's comments (and v. kind words, thank you) re: the Network not spawning unique clans. No fewer than two clans have spun off from us, including SPARC & TYPES, who wanted to go in different directions, and did, and are successful for it, and I salute them.

c) We've taken some heat for our "cookie cutter" approach, and candidly, I strongly disagree that that's been the case at all. What joins the clans (besides coordination, open enrollment and a certain look and feel to our MOTD/Clan Desc) is the people in them. We have some folks in each clan that are damned passionate about THEIR clan -- the Network is secondary. For instance, Stumour loves SOUR; Ashtu & Alik really seem to enjoy SUGAR; Yrk has been an avid SWEETer since the beginning; Yaisa, Rabbit et. al. are passionate about SPICE; And Shiloh (who has largely taken charge of SAVOR) says they always felt closest to that clan. These are just anecdotal accounts.

d) The other thing is clan rotation. Because we have some central coordination -- folks from one Network clan can join (temporarily, or whatnot, it's their choice) another Network clan easily (maybe it's to help with buffs; maybe it's to try another flavor), this allows players to find the right mix of friends, without losing the friendships they may have had in the prior clan.

Ultimately, the unique flavor of each clan comes from the people within them -- not from me making sure we're using the right color codes in the MOTD, or that the format is becoming unreadable.

Throughout this experience, I've learned a couple of things:

1) The activity requirement generally ensures that clans remain around 90% of their total capacity.
2) I've only ever had to pull the "jerk lever" on two folks, in two seasons.
3) Folks that want to do stuff that the clan specifically isn't doing will find a way to do it; whether by forming their own clan, or forming close ties with friends, or another (full perhaps?) clan that is doing what they want to do.
4) The open enrollment approach works, and is a great way to discover and cultivate new players to the Island. I thank my lucky stars that it has allowed me to meet so many great people.
5) Regardless of total clan capacity, there are really fun ways to create networks and associations that are more than the sum of their parts; And in doing so, are constantly surprising and stimulating to me.

In any case, those are my thoughts on the SWEET Network.
I was proud to become a part of SWEET. I'm proud of the people in it.
I'm especially proud of what we have built together in Season 2.
I can't wait to do more.
For me, at least, it's the best job on the Island.

Much love,


~CTP


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 08:49 PM
By: Silcatra

Content:

Quote by: crashtestpilot

b) With respect to Bakemaster's comments (and v. kind words, thank you) re: the Network not spawning unique clans. No fewer than two clans have spun off from us, including SPARC & TYPES, who wanted to go in different directions, and did, and are successful for it, and I salute them.


I'd like to take one moment to correct this: TYPES is not a SWEET Network spin-off clan, even though most of our initial leadership did originally come from SUGAR, with one member from SWEET and the sixth from ROGUE. We are a clan unto ourselves and have shaped ourselves differently. But I do thank you for recognizing TYPES success, CTP. Smile


On topic... I don't like the idea of increasing clan sizes. Something about it doesn't sit well with me; whether that stems from good players passing up smaller clans to join an expanded bigger one, having a smaller pool of good newbies to try and pull in, or from the risk of not having a clan so tight-knit as some currently are, I'm not sure. Twenty is a good size, plenty of opportunity to get to know everyone.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 19 2010 @ 08:52 PM
By: Buddleia

Content:

Quote by: Cousjava

Smaller clans also means more different roleplaying styles, so you could get one clan of ... sloths.****


Sloth already has pretty much his own clan. He's a JERK and proud of it.


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 20 2010 @ 02:44 PM
By: crashtestpilot

Content:

@Silcatra: I withdraw the term "SWEET spin-off clan" as being overly general.

As you said, many members came from SUGAR which remains a SWEET Network clan.
But you said it better, and went into more detail about TYPES origins. I was trying to do too many things in that paragraph, and used an overly broad brush. I apologize for any offense given.

My take on the whole thing (in conversations with Xane) was that Xane wanted to branch off, and in doing so, struck a chord with a lot of folks in the Network. My point in even mentioning it was to illustrate the idea that yes, the SWEET approach isn't all things to all people, and that as a result prominent figures in the Network chose to do other things. That's the way it SHOULD be, at least IMO.

But in any case, the fact remains that TYPES is a successful clan, with its own unique flavor -- it brings a lot to the Island.

Of course, I miss the ex-SUGAR folks a great deal. But I love what TYPES is doing as a clan, and wish every success.

All my best,

~CTP


Re: Larger Clans, please

Posted on: October 21 2010 @ 04:16 PM
By: Bakemaster

Content:

Anyone have an update regarding the member cap increase cost algorithm?

It seems odd to me that the ONLY sentiment expressed in this thread regarding cost, since the functionality was implemented, has been "that's way too cheap!" but nobody has mentioned the price changing... is there an issue with resetting/refunding for clans that have already bought multiple cap increases? Has it already been changed? Is it not going to be changed?


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