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 Eliminating Turns and Travel points
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Bodoni
 Sunday, December 28 2008 @ 08:35 PM UTC  
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So. What do you think?
Yes please.


 
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Bernard
 Sunday, December 28 2008 @ 08:37 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

(*tries to imagine a Healer's Hut run by Uncle Bernard. Fails utterly. Tries again because the partial images received were so mindbogglingly funny*)

You've got a lot of great ideas packed into a paragraph there, Bernard. I really hope Dan can make something like that happen. It would be wonderful.

Another twist that would open up many possibilities is to let those consumables that affect stamina be easily giftable, in many different ways. And player-modifiable, at least in their descriptions. I've talked about food, for instance. Wealthy players should be able to throw banquets with huge guest lists -- and delicious gourmet menus... or utterly disgusting ones.

And drinks: In a pub, players should be able to buy each other drinks, or buy a round for everyone in the room (interpreted, perhaps, as anyone who enters within the next n minutes, or the first n people to come in....) If there are clan inns, or pubs run by individual players, there should be a way to invent one's own drinks.



Although I'm a tad concerned that any healer's shack with my mug on the advertising hoarding is just going to be a target for drive-by condom-full-of-flouring on the part of Sessine and his gang, I'll press on regardless. And, once more throw my hat at his ring (sic) - gifting little stamina-fits will be wonderful... Imagine the Four Town Marathon and standing at the roadside with cups of soup, hurling them at the competitors... How smashing would that be? These consumables must be player-describable, as it would open up a whole new paradigm of role-playing.

I would, for example, open up a shack in Squat Hole, selling only cheese. I would use the tagline "Quelle domage! C'est Fromage!" I would then take over the world...


 
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Anonymous: Rooster
 Sunday, December 28 2008 @ 09:29 PM UTC  


I like turns. I think it is simple and straight forward.

I enjoy the option of exchanging some turns of one type to turns of another, but i DO NOT like the idea of all 'actions' being out of one pool. ESPECIALLY the cost per round of fight. That seems.... evil? yes. evil.


 
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Bernard
 Sunday, December 28 2008 @ 09:35 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Rooster

I like turns. I think it is simple and straight forward.

I enjoy the option of exchanging some turns of one type to turns of another, but i DO NOT like the idea of all 'actions' being out of one pool. ESPECIALLY the cost per round of fight. That seems.... evil? yes. evil.



:wants to sit down with Rooster and show them some pictures to try and help them get through this... Smile


 
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Count Sessine
 Sunday, December 28 2008 @ 10:28 PM UTC  
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Mmn. Per round. Yes, I'd missed that. Is that still how you're planning to do it, Dan? It's more 'realistic,' I suppose... but realism per se is not necessarily a good thing in game design.

I can see why Rooster might not like it. Once a fight starts, you don't have any choice -- you have to finish it, one way or another. If you're going to encourage players to fine-tune their usage of stamina as an important game goal, creating a situation with no control that may force them into using far more stamina than they meant to... will count as a major funspoiler.

Would it be that difficult to keep it as a stamina cost per fight, instead of per round of fighting?

Either that... or change running away to be automatically successful, with a known stamina cost. As I recall, that's what one-shot teleporters were originally invented for, but teleporters take the character to an outpost. If you want to reward map exploration and have many interesting things to do out there on the map, you don't want to force players to start out all over again. So you could let them get away while remaining on the same map square, as per the current Run option, but say that it always works first time.

...That still won't answer the objection that the new system is way too complicated. Especially with all those big numbers.

Some people will hate it no matter what you do. Fewer will hate it if you divide the numbers by 10,000 and round to one decimal place before displaying them.


 
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Anonymous: Me
 Monday, December 29 2008 @ 02:28 AM UTC  



A wonderful Idea.
Though I (think/fear) that it will change the game quite a lot... too much maybe.

Also, newbies (Myself included) might be slightly (... *slightly*) confused by this system. Your choice though.

Clarification:
By 'change the game quite a lot...' I meant that you would LOSE the game. Also, maybe that maybe it will make it moar interesting but I fear combat may be slightly inhibited.


Also, how whould this work for the "Saved Day" function? Would you just get a set number (or a percentage) of Stamina points renewed to you on each new day, or would you get a reset yielding different (less or more) amounts of stamina based on what you did?


 
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, December 29 2008 @ 03:24 PM UTC  
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Okay, you lot have said a mouthful. Woo!

Travel Agents: The People Have Spoken. Bear in mind that I'm going to be doing a lot of interesting things with Mounts, and I don't particularly want to negate those things by offering a way for people to launch themselves all over the Island. So! How about if, every day, two out of seven of the catapults are undergoing repairs? It'll be the same two for everybody, and it'll change every system newday.

CTP:

Quote by: crashtestpilot

A few questions:

a) How do henchmen impact Stamina? (Bet y'all forgot about henchmen/mercs)
-- Do they have stamina of their own?
-- Will they hold you back?
-- If they do, can one buy vehicles for one's mercenaries? Or a vehicle-equipped mercenary?
b) Will large weapons (IE, double-barreled cat launchers, and other devices that cost travel) impact stamina?
-- Conversely, will small weapons impact them less?
-- Will scrap weapons/armor vs. Shiela's items have greater stamina cost? They ought to.
-- What about force-based armor (shields), vs. servo-enhanced armor vs. standard armor (non-force-based, non-servo enhanced
c) Will the amount of trade goods one is carrying impact Stamina? Ought to. Ditto for amounts of scrap. And what about carrying lots of req?
d) Will wounds impact the amount of stamina one is able to exert? Ought to.
e) Will multiple monster encounters (ie, 5 on 1) affect stamina vs. a single monster encounter?
f) Will there be encumbrance, and will that impact PVP encounters?
g) Will clan buffs impact clan member stamina?

A few points of agreement:
a) Ala Sessine, keep integers small, please, thanks.
b) I'm interested in trying the new system.

My feeling is that a handful of aspects have been thought through with respect to stamina, however, and I would prefer to see a system that touches all game components, rather than just combat or travel.

My final question: When is the current target start date for Season 2?


All best,

~CTP



a) No. If I start pissing about with Mercenaries more than adding a few new ones for S2 and inserting some into the player's company via the plotline quests, it'll take bloody ages - and I've got far more interesting things to be working on.
b) Yup.
c) Maybe. Like I say, I'm thinking of removing Trading altogether and replacing it with something a bit more interesting and useful.
d) Yes. Fighting while wounded will use up more of your Stamina. It will also give you more use points in certain Implants, and some Mounts will perform better when you're fighting with little health. Mwuhahahaha.
e) Maybe.
f) PvP in dwellings needs to be addressed separately - I'm thinking a standard debuff for fighting on unfamiliar territory. TBH the whole damned PvP system wants a jolly good shake-up anyway. I've been kicking around a very, very big idea over the past couple of days that I may or may not implement for S2... But if I do, it'll be a surprise.
g) We'll do something with clans and Stamina, but if we do, it'll likely take the form of a clan gym where people can train for free. Upgrading the gym with cigs will result in better action cost reduction.

Agreements:
a) I've been thinking about this... Behind the scenes, the numbers have to be large so that we can tune them finely. If we simply convert them to a two-digit number with another two decimal points for displaying them, then we'll run into problems with rounding where sometimes the player will find themselves going "Hey, I had 50.00 Stamina, did an action that required 10.00 Stamina, and now I only have 39.99?"
This warrants further investigation, and possibly doing some sums too.
b) Good!

Touching all game components: Well, yeah. That's one of the big reasons I'm writing this. If I write this system with a bunch of hooks in there to add new Stamina-driven activities, then we can add all sorts of new talents. Where before we would have had problems balancing the game in deciding how many turns of such-and-such-an-ability to add, we can now hook into the Stamina system, decide some starting values and let the player play how they like.

Target date: Optimistically? February at the earliest. Pessimistically? Launch to co-incide with the launch of Duke Nukem Forever.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, December 29 2008 @ 03:28 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Isk

Question! When we make a Drive Kill, would we have the option of adding to our maximum stamina, as we currently have the option of gaining extra turns, or only have the points needed decrease?



Probably, yeah. The starting action costs will decrease according to your actions over the previous DK automatically, but there's no reason why we can't add in an option that the player can choose for more Stamina as well. It'd replace the option to add Turns.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, December 29 2008 @ 03:31 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Bernard

I'm all for this. How far will you be able to take it?

Say if I spend all my stamina searching for tinctures, balms, unguents, salves, potions, herbs, the latest Nokia Mobile, poisons, plants and medicines and then making a shack, and calling it a 'healer's', over time I develop my own 'character class' of 'healer'. This becomes accepted in the game that if in trouble, the hospital tent is less a monopoly and you can come and see Healer Bernard, and eventually I set up my own guild with clan buffs different to those of a fighting/ battling guild? People from around the globe join, and we then make money in a market economy so that we can get better at doing what we do? You build in req sinks for advertising or having your shack on the High Street, whilst the council won't allow too much competition if you 'keep them sweet'.



Building the Stamina system will be our foundation for doing stuff like this. But don't expect something this big to be in at the start of S2, or it really will have to be released alongside Duke Nukem Forever.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, December 29 2008 @ 03:34 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Another twist that would open up many possibilities is to let those consumables that affect stamina be easily giftable, in many different ways. And player-modifiable, at least in their descriptions. I've talked about food, for instance. Wealthy players should be able to throw banquets with huge guest lists -- and delicious gourmet menus... or utterly disgusting ones.



This is the sort of thing that would be great to implement after S2 is launched. Again, though, I want to keep the development time for the launch as short as I can, and this is the sort of thing that doesn't require a Grand Reset and can be easily slotted in afterwards.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Monday, December 29 2008 @ 03:43 PM UTC  
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Other questions that have come up:

Saved days just generate a new day. They won't have to be modified to work with Stamina, as the function to reset/replenish your Stamina points is in the newday hook anyway. You'll get your Stamina points back with a saved day just as you get your Turns and Travel back now.

Per round, not per fight:

The reason why I want to do it per round is so that we can have multiple styles of fighting, and reduce the Stamina costs for each of those individual styles. It gives us more flexibility to do more of this sort of thing, should we have more ideas for in-battle options. The new Implants are mostly operating on per-round stuff too, and I can definitely say that it makes combat more exciting.

However, I get your point that many players who are killing monsters with a single hit will get a much, much greater advantage.

So, we can compromise - we'll go for a smaller Stamina cost per round of fighting (the costs will still be there, so that we can build in some per-round mechanics of ideas we might have in the future), but we'll offset that with a Hunting ability (which is what gets triggered when you look for trouble). When I say "ability" I mean something that has all of its own Stamina stats to go with it - an action point cost, a reduction in action points for doing more of that action, and so on and so forth. So, for example, the more you look for Big Trouble, the lower your cost of looking for Big Trouble. Smile


 
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Count Sessine
 Wednesday, December 31 2008 @ 03:29 AM UTC  
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Travel Agents: The People Have Spoken. Bear in mind that I'm going to be doing a lot of interesting things with Mounts, and I don't particularly want to negate those things by offering a way for people to launch themselves all over the Island. So! How about if, every day, two out of seven of the catapults are undergoing repairs? It'll be the same two for everybody, and it'll change every system newday.


If you do this, you will have to scrap that jury-rigged Council Politics module. As you know from my past comments, that definitely wouldn't break my heart. It requires all players to tiptoe carefully to avoid Bad Drama, the reward system introduces insane, game-unbalancing quantities of grenades and other goodies, and "control" of a city amounts to no more than a pitiful poster taped to a wall. Its only merit is that it is a logic game involving mathematics, prediction, vigilance, and -- most important -- last-minute timing.

It absolutely requires the Travel Agents.

Trying to play with two random catapults out of order would be like trying to play chess on a board where eighteen squares were off limits, and which eighteen changed with every move.

So, you know. Good. Break those catapults. Just so long as you realize that means there are certain kinds of activities you won't be able to put in your game.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, December 31 2008 @ 03:19 PM UTC  
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@Sessine - no, it'll be the same two catapults for everyone, and it'll change once every system newday. So, you'll still be able to get to any town from a working catapult, but if you catapult to a town with a non-working catapult, you won't be able to catapult out of there again. So the political control module should be pretty well unaffected if you're in a clan - your clan will, most likely, keep track of what catapults aren't working that day.


 
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Anonymous: The Shadow
 Thursday, January 01 2009 @ 04:41 AM UTC  


Overall, I like the stamina idea for all of travel/combat/etc. I think that taking additional stamina per point of damage inflicted on a monster is potentially too limiting. Perhaps actually GAINING a percentage of stamina lost back after killing a monster (basically representing adrenaline). Just a thought from someone who hasn't been around nearly as much as he'd like.


 
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SicPuess
 Friday, January 02 2009 @ 12:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Bodoni

So. What do you think?
Yes please.



Seconded.

The only thing I have to say... Imagine a newbie. Running straight into trouble. Which has no clue at all, since it's either the first BG they ever played, or are used to the standard LOGD workings.

Massive confusion ensues. So, the system should be as easy (and understandable) as possible, or some (some will anyway) otherwise prone-to-get-addicted players, especially new ones, will leave after a few days. I think.


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Friday, January 02 2009 @ 02:37 PM UTC  
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I've generally got to agree with this entire thing. At first I was a little bothered by this, then I realized the sheer potential that this could offer an otherwise, bluntly, kind of bland game.

Fighting as it is right now involves no strategy at all. There's no rationing of combat ability at all. Basically all I do is tap T for To the Death and I know I'll win. And if not then I get a new day anyway after a couple of turns tapping T on the Failboat, so that's no big deal at all to me.

So think about the potential of this. Suggest different fighting styles, and --Mind you these are examples of what I know, not really suggestions at all since martial arts aren't really the proper styles to this game.

Suggest that I was a Midget. Therefore quick and quite strong. Then suppose that I could change my fighting style to that of say, Good ol' Irish bare-knuckle boxing. Due to speed and the reliance of a quickness in conjunction with power, boxing would be the ideal fighting style for a Midget.

However, as anyone that knows whose tried it, boxing is incredibly tiring unless you are conditioned properly. It's really difficult to go eight rounds of five minutes, or Hell, even three rounds of five minutes or three rounds of three minutes. You tire out wicked quick.

Suppose you have a robot, using the same combat style. A robot's clockwork and mechanics could take the stamina requirements, but not the harsh conditioning and physical demands of boxing and taking a proper punch. Which would mean that using boxing, they wouldn't tire and get a stamina penalty, but they would get take more damage since part of boxing is taking the oppositions blows in stride. Since robots are rather fragile everywhere, it's hardly ideal for them to use boxing unless they have been buffed for physical defense.


---Then you could add all kinds of sorts of fighting styles and different things to different races and different builds.

Humans are resourceful by nature and very adaptable. Suppose you've got a style similar to Ninjitsu, a fighting style that's built entire upon being an opportunist and taking the cheap shot when you have it.
-While a human would be great for Ninjitsu, they would also lack the general physical structure for it, lacking the powerful legs of a Kittymorph of the stamina of a Zombie or something. So while using Ninjitsu, they'd be at a general disadvantage in everything, (Except for damage due to the opportunistic nature of a human) although that general disadvantage would be very marginal since they still are well-rounded enough to be good for just about everything at least.

Then suppose you have a KittyMorph using Ninjitsu. That KittyMorph certainly has much better jumping and leaping and dodging capabilities than a human would, but part of the nature of being a Ninja is being an opportunist and waiting for the proper time to strike. That would be the prime weakness of a KittyMorph. They are ever so easily distracted. So suppose that they couldn't wait for the right time to strike. So while their dodging abilities would be better than a human, their defensive capabilities better, their attacks would be much worse than a humans since they couldn't wait for the prime time to strike an opponent.

---As always, I apologize for my incredibly cluttered manner of typing out thoughts. I work better with a quill since my calligraphy actually slows down my thought processes and I can prepare my thoughts better. But since I type about half as fast as my ADD brain works, that's just destructive...

In any case, that was just a conglomeration of ideas that I just threw out there. And the fighting styles could offer opportunity for 'lols' as well.

I'm still kind of laughing at Minjitsu (Midget Ninjitsu) And the thought of seeing a Zombie pulling some good ol' fashion Marquess of Queensberry boxing.


"You saved Pineapple!"
 
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CavemanJoe
 Friday, January 02 2009 @ 03:50 PM UTC  
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Aye. We're not necessarily doing this just for the actual system that we'll be using to fight, but rather for the possibilities it opens up.

Anyway. It looks like most are in favour, so I'm working on the Stamina system right now and can confirm that this feature has the green light for going in Season Two. The challenge is making it so that other modules can hook in easily and create their own action cost information, so that we don't have to alter the Stamina module every time we want to make something else work with it.


 
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SicPuess
 Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 04:40 PM UTC  
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Quote by: K.K.+Victoria

Stuff



This is interesting. Imagine what this could do to PVP.

(Read: "I like it")


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Saturday, January 03 2009 @ 05:26 PM UTC  
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It'd be kind of painful to have to do fighting styles for each weapon used too. The only examples that I used were for fists or hand-to-hand combat... But even then, that presents something else interesting.

For the sake of simplifying things (And since some of the weapons have similar properties anyway. Like the different knives or swords, and then the different guns and such...) Each weapon class could have different sets of styles if you like as well. Say, for swords, you've got Bushido (Traditional Japanese swordsmanship,) Then to Medieval knight styles, then Fencing styles, and the other like.

For knives you've got the American fighting style (Crouched down with the knife held a certain way, blade pointing in the same direction as the thumb.) Which would be maneuverable and rely on quick stabs and evasive actions, then a sort of brawler style (Long slashes and lunges) And then for the fun of if, 80's horror movie slasher style. Heh... Which could offer a buff for fear or something much like the rusty chainsaw or something...

I'm just thinking out loud I suppose.


"You saved Pineapple!"
 
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Max Dougwell
 Sunday, January 04 2009 @ 05:35 AM UTC  
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Don't forget that each weapon is already getting "special attacks" that can be used on occasion. I think that its impossible to do what you're suggesting Victoria, since it would require Dan to code new text for each of the 1,000 or so weapons in season two. Perhaps if the weapons were categorized into groupings like "fear", multi-purpose", "limb", "alive", "energy", "fueled" etc... then it could reduce that, but it's still unlikely.

by the way SicPuess, love the GirlGenius reference.


 
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