Enquirer Home Page | Twitter | Back to Improbable Island

 Forum Index > Season Two > Development New Topic Post Reply
 EXP growth with DKs OR Why level 1 sucks
 |  Printable Version
FunnyMan
 Friday, January 15 2010 @ 05:18 PM UTC (Read 8551 times)  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 29

I'm sure the other veterans will agree with me on this point:

Level 1 SUCKS.

Why? Because it takes a long time. Each DK raises the exp for reaching level 2 by 25, which doesn't seem like much until you remember that it only took 100 exp on the first run. So after 20 DKs, it takes 600 exp to reach level 2, or six times as long.

How does that stack up with other levels? Well, once you factor out the remaining exp from the previous level, it turns out that every level gets 25 exp longer per DK. But, of course, higher levels had higher exp requirements to start with, so it's a much smaller change. Take a look:



Pure white is the original length of that level, pure black is 6x as long. As you can see, the stretching is worst at level 1, and rapidly drops off after that. At 20 DKs, level 1 is 500% longer, 2 is 167% longer, 5 is 41% longer, 10 is 15% longer, and 14 a mere 7.5% longer. Level 15 isn't terminated by gaining a level, naturally, but the bar it displays is 6.4% longer.

To put it another way, big fights at L1 earn maybe 30XP, while big fights at L14 earn something in the neighborhood of 250XP. So the added 500 XP at 20 DKs is two battles at L14, but more like 20 at L1. Ouch.

A more sane progression would be obtained by changing the exp code (in lib/experience.php) from this:

PHP Formatted Code

function exp_for_next_level($curlevel, $curdk)
{
        $exparray = array(1=>100,2=>400,3=>1002,4=>1912,5=>3140,6=>4707,
                        7=>6641,8=>8985, 9=>11795,10=>15143,11=>19121,12=>23840,
                        13=>29437,14=>36071,15=>43930);

        if ($curlevel < 1) return 0;

        while(list($key,$val) = each($exparray)) {
                $exparray[$key] = round($val + ($curdk/4) * $key * 100, 0);
        }
        if ($curlevel > 15) $curlevel = 15;
        $exprequired = $exparray[$curlevel];
        return $exprequired;
}
 


to this:

PHP Formatted Code

function exp_for_next_level($curlevel, $curdk)
{
        $exparray = array(1=>100,2=>400,3=>1002,4=>1912,5=>3140,6=>4707,
                        7=>6641,8=>8985, 9=>11795,10=>15143,11=>19121,12=>23840,
                        13=>29437,14=>36071,15=>43930);

        if ($curlevel < 1) return 0;
        if ($curlevel > 15) $curlevel = 15;

        $exprequired = round($exparray[$curlevel] * (1.0 + (.01 * $curdk)), 0);
        return $exprequired;
}
 


So at 1 DK, each level is 1% longer, 20 DKs is 20% longer, and so on. This will make the total EXP required to reach L15 slightly higher (+360.71/DK vs the old +350/DK), but also smooth out the increase so that all levels grow at the same rate. In fact, the stamina required will probably drop a bit, since you will reach higher levels sooner.

For the visually-inclined, it makes the previous graph look like this instead:



Yes, that's correct and not just a blank white graph. It's using the same 1x-6x scale as the original, so the 1.2x of the far right hand column is just barely darker than pure white: #f5f5f5, to be exact.

Night and day, isn't it?


 
Profile Email
Quote
Zolotisty
 Friday, January 15 2010 @ 05:39 PM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 570

..and cue the screaming from the powergamers and speedrunners in five.. four..


BARK BARK BARK.
 
Profile Email
Quote
Zpatula
 Friday, January 15 2010 @ 06:01 PM UTC  
Forum Badass
Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 106

Quote by: Zolotisty

..and cue the screaming from the powergamers and speedrunners in five.. four..



three... two... one... GO!

I concur - level one becomes a real nusence out beyond the 30th drive kill. The recent introduction of highly nutritious 'Mouldywarp' has helped a bit by allowing a bit longer stamina retention on Lv 1, but it's still a real grind. For experienced players the early levels drag and the higher levels go by in a blur.


I ATE PINEAPPLE!
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Derander
 Friday, January 15 2010 @ 09:10 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 51

Numbers make head hurt...

While I agree that lvl 1 is a bit of a drag, it does help with the req gathering.

So, erm... no?

Not productive at all, I know. Sorry. I'd scream but I don't get it. :p


 
Profile Email
Quote
g_rock
 Friday, January 15 2010 @ 09:18 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 11/06/09
Posts: 132

Quote by: Derander

Numbers make head hurt...

While I agree that lvl 1 is a bit of a drag, it does help with the req gathering.

So, erm... no?

Not productive at all, I know. Sorry. I'd scream but I don't get it. :p



Actually, if I understand what's being proposed (BIG if), it would make req-hording easier. You get virtually nothing for lower levels, and this would allow you to bypass those and get to higher req levels faster, but make them last longer...Yes?


 
Profile Email
Quote
Zpatula
 Friday, January 15 2010 @ 09:39 PM UTC  
Forum Badass
Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 106

The proposed code change would affectively add 1% to the exp required to move to a new level for each DK you have, rather than the addition of 25 points times the level times your DKs that we currently have. Numbers do not make my head hurt.

Although I agree that the current level 1 requirements are onerous for higher level players, I think the proposed adjustment is too large a change. At my current level (42 DKs), the requirement for moving from Level 1 to Level 2 would drop from 1150 points to 142 points -- too big a drop, IMHO.

I believe that an adjustment would improve the play for advanced players, but the proposed algorithm treads too heavilly. All of the early levels (thru about L13) would be easier, while L14 and L15 would be slightly harder.

Of course, we could simplify things more -- just intall a button that says 'KILL THE DRIVE'. This would make advancing thru levels very simple Mr. Green


I ATE PINEAPPLE!
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Bakemaster
 Saturday, January 16 2010 @ 01:43 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 226

This is a more and more significant change as people accumulate DKs above and beyond 20. Think of poor Mr. Galactose Halo, who will suddenly go from needing to kill 20 extra enemies at level 14 (compared to someone with 0 DKs) to needing almost 300 extra kills...

Personally, I think this change would make hoarding req somewhat more difficult. Accumulating req by killing monsters is the most simplistic and least worthwhile method for building bank; if you want to do it right, you stay at Level 1 as long as possible so as to waste the least amount of time fighting... Because you're going to have a hard time of it later on, since you're playing a Robot for the travel costs...

Maybe I shouldn't give away all my methods at once, though.


Unofficial Improbable Island out-of-character chat is at irc.foonetic.net, channel #iisland - come on by!
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
talkydoor
 Saturday, January 16 2010 @ 02:50 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 162

Aargh, yes. In my experience getting off of Level 1 takes about a third of the time an entire dk takes, which is... a little ridiculous.

But, any changes now are going to seriously affect the powerplayers, and make things suddenly change, and I'm not sure that'd be such a good idea... If level 1 becomes faster, I'll dk faster, I'll get more 'free' newdays, I'll have to spend yet more time on this game....

aargh

I also find level 1 most difficult. Even with super-duper equipment, I'm most likely to die before getting to 3... I imagine this is just because of the time spent, but it does seem odd.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Ada
 Saturday, January 16 2010 @ 03:10 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 428

Making level 1 hurt less makes some sense! But adding a percent instead of a fixed number would make later levels reallyreally crazy. After 50 DKs, you'd have a level one that takes about 150 exp (huuuge improvement!), but a level 15 that takes something in the neighborhood of 75k. Yikes! At the 100-DK rank, level one would barely be harder at all (200 exp), but level 15 would take nearly 100k. Scary!


 
Profile Email
Quote
Derander
 Saturday, January 16 2010 @ 06:08 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 51

While lvl 1 taking somewhat less and lvl 10+ more sounds good, these numbers are, idd, scary.

Failure is ever imminent when at lvl 1, higher levels are routine.

So, once again, aaaaargh?!?!! Wink


 
Profile Email
Quote
Tyr
 Saturday, January 16 2010 @ 07:40 PM UTC  
Forum Badass
Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 98

I hate level one. Several people can attest to my bitching and moaning. (Though really, I've only started noticing what a pain in the ass it is these last 50 or so DKS. It took me 4075 exp to get to level 2 this time around).

But I'll be sad if it changes. The way I see it, long level ones comes with the territory. Speedruns shouldn't be easy. If level one is the challenge I have to overcome to feel like I've earned it, so be it.


 
Profile Email
Quote
FunnyMan
 Saturday, January 16 2010 @ 09:55 PM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 29

Quote by: Ada

Making level 1 hurt less makes some sense! But adding a percent instead of a fixed number would make later levels reallyreally crazy. After 50 DKs, you'd have a level one that takes about 150 exp (huuuge improvement!), but a level 15 that takes something in the neighborhood of 75k. Yikes! At the 100-DK rank, level one would barely be harder at all (200 exp), but level 15 would take nearly 100k. Scary!



Not really scary at all, actually; they're both exactly the same amount longer. After 100 DKs, level 1 will take twice as long as it did the first time, and level 15 will take twice as long as it did the first time. The raw experience required is completely irrelevant. If it took 20 battles the first time, it takes 40 after 100 DKs.

A bunch of people seem to be missing the fact that this is a *tiny* change in total XP needed vs the old algorithm. Just 10.71 XP/DK. Even at 100 DKs, that's only 1,071 extra XP, or about four battles at L14. And that much is easily tweaked. Drop the per-DK component from 1%/DK to 0.95%/DK, and it's down to 342.7 XP/DK, or 7.3 less XP/DK.

Again, the big change is that it spreads the added XP requirement out more evenly. And again, I think this is going to make a DK slightly faster overall. Yes, as written it makes the higher levels a bit larger, but it does that primarily by shifting the exp needed to higher levels. And since higher levels give you EXP at a faster rate, that means that on average, you'll earn more XP/battle, and hence need fewer battles/DK.

The numbers for that depend on the average XP/battle at each level, and that's based off of the monsters in II's database. However, if we assume that the numbers in the Improbable Labs DB are similar, that gives us this:

PHP Formatted Code

114
224
334
445
555
666
777
889
9101
10: 114
11: 127
12: 141
13: 156
14: 172
15: 189
16: 207
 


Let's assume that you're always fighting monsters of the next level (which makes L1 disproportionately faster). There's a 10% bonus, so the actual XP/monster is:

PHP Formatted Code

126.4
237.4
349.5
460.5
572.6
684.7
797.9
8111.1
9125.4
10: 139.7
11: 155.1
12: 171.6
13: 189.2
14: 207.9
15: 227.7
 


So right now, each DK makes every level 25XP longer, so the levels grow by this many battles per DK:

PHP Formatted Code

10.9470
20.6684
30.5051
40.4132
50.3444
60.2952
70.2554
80.2250
90.1994
10: 0.1790
11: 0.1612
12: 0.1457
13: 0.1321
14: 0.1203
15: 0.1098
 


For a total of 4.7 extra battles per DK. If, instead, we drop in the new EXP formula, the levels grow by this many battles per DK:

PHP Formatted Code

10.037879
20.080214
30.121616
40.150413
50.169146
60.185006
70.197549
80.210981
90.224083
10: 0.239656
11: 0.256480
12: 0.275000
13: 0.295825
14: 0.319096
15: 0.345147
 


Notice that the higher levels did, indeed, get longer, but the lower levels got much shorter. This time, the total is 3.1 extra battles per DK.

Hence, overall, it will take you 1.6 fewer battles per DK to complete a new DK. So "poor Mr. Galactose Halo" will be thanking me for saving him about 32 battles per run.

Not to mention sparing him from needing 193.2 battles to pass L1. 11.4 sounds a lot more reasonable, no?


 
Profile Email
Quote
Beeker
 Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 12:33 AM UTC  
Forum Badass
Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 90

Quote by: FunnyMan

So right now, each DK makes every level 25XP longer, so the levels grow by this many battles per DK:

PHP Formatted Code

10.9470
20.6684
30.5051
40.4132
50.3444
60.2952
70.2554
80.2250
90.1994
10: 0.1790
11: 0.1612
12: 0.1457
13: 0.1321
14: 0.1203
15: 0.1098
 





This statement, and the table based on it, has an error: level 2 increases by 25 xp per DK, but level 3 increases by 50 xp per DK and level 4 by 75 and so on.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Ada
 Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 12:39 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 428

Quote by: Beeker's missing post, nabbed by Z so that Beeker could repost a correct version, this edit lock-out thing is kind of silly, don't you think?

And I don't think it shows that level 1 is disproportionately more difficult than the others, except for the low meat yield meaning that it requires more stamina to do those low-level fights.



Lack of req slows it down, too, unless you just managed the big payout from Dan. Not having shiny weapons makes me cry. Frown


(Not really. Well, almost.)


 
Profile Email
Quote
FunnyMan
 Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 01:30 AM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 29

Quote by: Beeker


This statement, and the table based on it, has an error: level 2 increases by 25 xp per DK, but level 3 increases by 50 xp per DK and level 4 by 75 and so on.



No, it's correct. The total experience to gain a given level increases as you said, but the experience to reach it from the previous level increases by exactly 25 xp/DK.

  • To reach level 2, you need a total of 100+25/DK experience.
  • To reach level 3, you need a total of 400+50/DK experience.
  • When you level, you do not fall back to 0 experience, you keep all the experience you had.
  • Hence, once you are level 2, you only need 300+25/DK more experience, minus whatever excess you had at levelup.


Once you factor out the previous level's leftovers, you find that each level requires (some number) + 25/DK experience. The numbers happen to be:

PHP Formatted Code

1->2:   100 + 25/DK
2->3:   300 + 25/DK
3->4:   602 + 25/DK
4->5:   910 + 25/DK
5->6:   1228 + 25/DK
6->7:   1567 + 25/DK
7->8:   1934 + 25/DK
8->9:   2344 + 25/DK
9->102810 + 25/DK
10->11: 3348 + 25/DK
11->12: 3978 + 25/DK
12->13: 4719 + 25/DK
13->14: 5597 + 25/DK
14->15: 6634 + 25/DK
15->16: 7859 + 25/DK (not that it matters)
 


The table measures the length of the given level, not the total experience needed. Naturally, this assumes you don't lose experience from dying/stonehenge/CMJ being capricious, but that's going to suck pretty much equally no matter what the required EXP for a level is.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Beeker
 Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 01:39 AM UTC  
Forum Badass
Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 90

Quote by: Beeker's missing post, nabbed by Z so that Beeker could repost a correct version, this edit lock-out thing is kind of silly, don't you think?


Yes, yes I do.

As you increase in DK's, the number of monsters you have to kill at each level does increase, and it increases more at the low levels than it does at the high levels. Level 1 is especially hard hit. This is all true.

While I agree that I'd like to spend less time at level 1 (it's boring), I would be concerned with throwing off the balance. Like Tyr, I want things to be more difficult as you go up through DK's.

Here's how many monster kills it took at each level when Beeker was on his first DK. I'm ignoring the fact that he got failboated every other fight.

PHP Formatted Code

Monster kills per level at zero DKs

2       8
3       13
4       18
5       21
6       23
7       24
8       26
9       27
10      28
11      30
12      32
13      34
14      36
15      39
 


Beeker now has 72 DK's. Here's how many kills it takes him now. I'm ignoring the fact that the Mutant and the Magpie like to chase him around and take all his xp away.

PHP Formatted Code

Monster kills per level at 72 DKs

2       136
3       88
4       71
5       61
6       56
7       52
8       49
9       47
10      46
11      46
12      46
13      47
14      48
15      50
 


Here's how many it would take under FM's proposal

PHP Formatted Code

Monster kills per level (FMs suggestion) at 72 DKs

2       13
3       22
4       31
5       35
6       39
7       41
8       44
9       46
10      48
11      51
12      54
13      58
14      62
15      67
 


So, yup, I'd be spending a lot less time at level 1, and I'd like that part of it. But I'm not sure it wouldn't make things too easy.

Notice that this analysis also ignores the lack of meat drops at the low levels, and the fact that higher level fights may require more stamina because they require more rounds: lots of times my low-level fights are single-round fights, whereas fights at level 14 might be 6 rounds, requiring more stamina. I didn't factor those things in.


 
Profile Email
Quote
SicPuess
 Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 02:12 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 327

I'd like to add a thought: As suggested, the amount of fights done in low levels would be cut back, while rising near the end of a DK. Closely tied to the number of fights per level is the Req earned per level.

This means that
a) at low DKs, some might level accidentally or forcedly - with an increased possibility of having too less req to buy equipment fit to the level. Higher-DK folks would have to work just as long or even longer trying to earn money for a specific weapon. (If you're not crate-hunting, that is). It stops mattering at some point though.

b) There'll be more req at the end of a DK, which makes people more willing to spend it. The economy is centered around eBoy's - if there are now high-level people with more money than before and low-level people with less money than before, it's not hard to imagine in which direction prices go, more and more out of the reach of low-level folks. I'm specifically thinking of one-shots and repellent spray, here.

Nothing that probably couldn't be balanced by tinkering with the payout rates, but we'd be touching a running system here. Something for S3 maybe, in conclusion, in my opinion!


 
Profile Email
Quote
Jay Chaos
 Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 02:26 AM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 36

Let me put it without all that pretty and confusing numbers:

With 11 DKs i usually take 1 day to go to level 2. But i usually take 30 days to finish the DK. So, yeah, it take more time to go from level 14 to 15 than from level 1 to 2, no matter how many less fights i need to make it.

I'm not very high ranked, so until now this thing doesn't bother me, but... It feels weird to have such differences among the levels, now that i know about then.


 
Profile Email
Quote
FunnyMan
 Sunday, January 17 2010 @ 04:08 PM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 29

Jay - You're still too junior to have reached that part of the problem yet. At 11 DKs, the above math shows that you'll need 14.2 fights at L1 and 30.3 fights at L14.

For that matter, I'm still a little too junior to have L1 surpass L14 for length. At 26 DKs, L1 is 28.4 fights and L14 is 32.0 fights. It's not until 31 DKs that L1 will actually be longer than L14.

A more useful comparison is L1 vs L2. With no DKs, L1 is 3.8 battles long, and L2 is 8.0 battles long. At your 11 DKs, it's 14.2 and 15.4 battles, respectively. Up at 26 DKs, I've got 28.4 at L1 and 25.4 at L2. So I'm already noticing the problem, because L1 takes longer than L2. It also feels even longer than that, because it's so dull. I'm basically stuck spending two days on a level that gets me pretty much nothing useful, and at most ranks is completely nonthreatening.


 
Profile Email
Quote
PyreKasen
 Sunday, January 31 2010 @ 01:50 AM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 22

OH GOD, YES.

I support this topic so much. While the exact amount of increase should indeed have mathematical backing to keep the amount of battles per DK about the same, changing from an absolute increase to a percentile one would be very much welcomed.

I see Math going on, but my brain is currently too worn out to do the thinking thing. But for now, I support this.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Content generated in: 1.69 seconds
New Topic Post Reply



 All times are UTC. The time is now 12:54 AM.

Normal Topic Normal Topic
Locked Topic Locked Topic
Sticky Topic Sticky Topic
New Post New Post
Sticky Topic W/ New Post Sticky Topic W/ New Post
Locked Topic W/ New Post Locked Topic W/ New Post
View Anonymous Posts 
Anonymous users can post 
Filtered HTML Allowed 
Censored Content