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Beeps
 Thursday, January 06 2011 @ 05:59 PM UTC  
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Ah, but coffee's in Newhome, and unless the buff for it lasts ~30 rounds to adjust for travel and possible combat time (Unless you use a rail pass for the purpose of getting around this) it doesn't seem like this would be stamina-cost effective? Moreso, given that you'd have to spend the stamina to go there and back...


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Awesome Fred
 Friday, January 07 2011 @ 06:13 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Beeps

Ah, but coffee's in Newhome, and unless the buff for it lasts ~30 rounds to adjust for travel and possible combat time (Unless you use a rail pass for the purpose of getting around this) it doesn't seem like this would be stamina-cost effective? Moreso, given that you'd have to spend the stamina to go there and back...



As you said, a Rail Pass can be used to make this very stamina/cost-effective. It is not time/fun-effective, however.


 
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Unisol
 Monday, January 10 2011 @ 07:19 PM UTC  
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I've read too many stories about how some dude wrote a little clickety-clickety helper for some browser game to automatize some annoying aspects, and after a little tweaking and feature adding he himself suddenly was just unnecesary - program replaced him completely. Yet still, as a Debian user, I volunteer for WINE compatibility testing.


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acheron
 Monday, January 10 2011 @ 10:28 PM UTC  
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It's cheating because you're using a program to give you an unfair advantage over other players, and as for the argument that it leaves in the strategic decision making that is bull, you're just automating everything, especially the "fight to mortal wound" aspect, a huge amount of the skill involved in fighting is knowing when to stop.


 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Tuesday, January 11 2011 @ 05:07 AM UTC  


Quote by: acheron

you're just automating everything, especially the "fight to mortal wound" aspect, a huge amount of the skill involved in fighting is knowing when to stop.



Yar. I don't miraculously avoid the Failboat on a regular basis because of my clan buffs or amazing gear.

Otherwise agreeing with what he said. It's cheaty in that when Builder McGee is spending an hour faithfully logging away with the system as designed, Builder McBot turns on his auto-logging and runs off for coffee with a hot chick. As such, very doubtful that CMJ will approve of or appreciate an application that leads to mass botting on his server.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, January 11 2011 @ 05:24 AM UTC  
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That's true, but discussions like this are useful. If there are areas in my game that are so boring that people want to make robots to play for them, then those parts of the game need attention.


 
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tehdave
 Tuesday, January 11 2011 @ 08:12 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

That's true, but discussions like this are useful. If there are areas in my game that are so boring that people want to make robots to play for them, then those parts of the game need attention.



Train Cooking/cleaning/insults X5/X10/X20 please? Big Grin
"Build on stone until complete" "Build on Wood until complete" "Decorate until I drop" etc? Big Grin (As fun as it is to write those decorations, it's decidedly less fun hitting "D" 45 times)


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Beeps
 Tuesday, January 11 2011 @ 08:29 PM UTC  
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Quote by: tehdave

Quote by: CavemanJoe

That's true, but discussions like this are useful. If there are areas in my game that are so boring that people want to make robots to play for them, then those parts of the game need attention.



Train Cooking/cleaning/insults X5/X10/X20 please? Big Grin
"Build on stone until complete" "Build on Wood until complete" "Decorate until I drop" etc? Big Grin (As fun as it is to write those decorations, it's decidedly less fun hitting "D" 45 times)


Pleeeaaase! This would make my completionist quests so much easier!


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Awesome Fred
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 04:21 PM UTC  
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And of course the Fight Coarse Insults x 5, Fight Coarse Insults x 10, Fight Coarse Insults To The Death.
And then Confusing and then Classy.


 
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Count Sessine
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 07:24 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

And of course the Fight Coarse Insults x 5, Fight Coarse Insults x 10, Fight Coarse Insults To The Death.
And then Confusing and then Classy.

You're only asking for nine more links in the battle screen? How about another four? Use Perfect Timing: x1, x5, x10, To the Death!

(I hope you were joking... hard to tell sometimes with deadpan humour. 'Specially in text.)


 
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Beeps
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 08:13 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

And of course the Fight Coarse Insults x 5, Fight Coarse Insults x 10, Fight Coarse Insults To The Death.
And then Confusing and then Classy.

You're only asking for nine more links in the battle screen? How about another four? Use Perfect Timing: x1, x5, x10, To the Death!

(I hope you were joking... hard to tell sometimes with deadpan humour. 'Specially in text.)


And the option to use all of an item in your bandolier, for when you're burning through Improbability Bombs.
Ooh, what about "til end of buff" versions that let you automate through the remaining rounds of buffs? That's only like another six links per buff.
I won't even remember what monster I was fighting, but I'll have every option needed to fight however I like!

Though in all seriousness, I do see the merit of some multi-insult options. Part of why I didn't level them up yet is the fact that it immediately makes combat five+ times slower.


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dizzyizzy
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 08:36 PM UTC  
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Maybe it's time for a complete overhaul of the combat interface? Customizable buttons would be AWESOME.



Sorry, I know that's a ton of work.


but it'd be really sweet.


 
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Beeps
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 08:48 PM UTC  
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Quote by: dizzyizzy

Maybe it's time for a complete overhaul of the combat interface? Customizable buttons would be AWESOME.



Sorry, I know that's a ton of work.


but it'd be really sweet.


I was kind of throwing this idea around a while ago. And yeah, this would be a scary amount of work, since it's like... navs from all over the place. Half a dozen modules, some core code...
The thing that I couldn't decide was what qualified as better? At this time, the fastest way to navigate is through keyboard shortcuts, and there's not really a good way to tack semi-automation to any/all options. I think via javascript you could make it so holding the mouse down over a link would pop up a list of options for how many times to do an action, which would be faster than having to click it ten times, but it would be a bit of a pain in the butt. You can't really do modifiers like shift/ctrl/alt since you run the risk of triggering browser shortcuts.
Do you have any suggestions/ideas as to how you'd like to see this?


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Maniak
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 09:26 PM UTC  
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http://i.imgur.com/wmNKA.jpg

That's.. Quite horrid? The jpg artifacts don't help either. And there's no way to give all those keyboard shortcuts.

I obviously don't have the same graphic design skills beeps has.


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Beeps
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 10:53 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak

http://i.imgur.com/wmNKA.jpg

That's.. Quite horrid? The jpg artifacts don't help either. And there's no way to give all those keyboard shortcuts.

I obviously don't have the same graphic design skills beeps has.


I'd considered something like that myself. It's definitely still better than no options.
http://i.imgur.com/oihZO.jpg
Main differences aside from my awesome jpeg skillz and lack of ability to capitalize "ZAP" being the removal of the "automated fighting" options, since everything else has a standardized automated fighting layout, and the inclusion of the automation lines even if the item can't be used that many times (I really like standardized stuff, I'd rather have "you can't go north" than have north vanish off the nav list).
The one problem I see with this is that you can't normally do targeted fighting to the death.


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Maniak
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 11:45 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Beeps


I'd considered something like that myself. It's definitely still better than no options.
http://i.imgur.com/oihZO.jpg
Main differences aside from my awesome jpeg skillz and lack of ability to capitalize "ZAP" being the removal of the "automated fighting" options, since everything else has a standardized automated fighting layout, and the inclusion of the automation lines even if the item can't be used that many times (I really like standardized stuff, I'd rather have "you can't go north" than have north vanish off the nav list).
The one problem I see with this is that you can't normally do targeted fighting to the death.



Much better you even took the effort of finding yourself on a good Joker day, you scoundrel.. I also very much agree with the standardized layout, (including not go north. I get lost in the factory, going back and forth because the navs jump all over the place).
Since we're nitpicking, you can do targeted fighting to the death quite easily. One surefire example would be the pocketprotector. Joking aside, it should be Target To the DEATH (of that particular target).

Also one thing. You would have the ability to throw ZAP after ZAP grenade. Although logical from a standardized point of view, no one would actually throw a ZAP grenade one after another. Same with WOOMPH. As it's a multi-round buff, throwing it again doesn't do much.


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Beeps
 Wednesday, January 12 2011 @ 11:53 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak


Much better you even took the effort of finding yourself on a good Joker day, you scoundrel.. I also very much agree with the standardized layout, (including not go north. I get lost in the factory, going back and forth because the navs jump all over the place).
Since we're nitpicking, you can do targeted fighting to the death quite easily. One surefire example would be the pocketprotector. Joking aside, it should be Target To the DEATH (of that particular target).

Also one thing. You would have the ability to throw ZAP after ZAP grenade. Although logical from a standardized point of view, no one would actually throw a ZAP grenade one after another. Same with WOOMPH. As it's a multi-round buff, throwing it again doesn't do much.


I got lucky, it's the first good day this run.Can this go smaller?Oh my, yes it can. The version of the Factory I'm working on is set up that way, so rejoice and badger me to finish it.
I think my example may have been a bit confusing, though I tried to make it clear - You have one ZAP, so you can't do ZAPs for five, ten, or to-the-death rounds. You have six WOOMPHs, so you can do 5 rounds of WOOMPHs but not ten or to-the-death. You have ten BANGs, so you can do, five, ten, or to-the-death rounds. I suppose you should be able to do to-the-death regardless?


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Iriana
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 12:16 AM UTC  
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Er, I don't think that having options to use items in stacked rounds is a good thing. "Burning through Improbability Bombs"--the only reason to do that is to milk it for req, charm or cigs, and I don't feel like that's the way it was intended. Imp Bombs, to me, are to make combat a bit more unpredictable, and being able to toss 10 in a row seems to defeat that. And like Maniak said, why waste ZAPs or WHOOMPHs by throwing 5 in a row? The effects don't stack anyways.

Plus, in my opinion, this is veering over into "no skill/thought/humans required". Which is not what should happen.

In opposition to Beeps, I prefer the least amount of stuff rather than whited-out options if you can't take them. If I can't go north, no need to spend a line telling me I can't go north. Just a matter of personal preference, but I thought I'd mention it.

And I'd just like to throw in there that there are people who play on phones or other mobile devices... I don't know how much of a consideration this is for CMJ, but I do play on a phone about half the time and the more complicated the keyboard shortcuts are, the less fun it is to do combat.

Sorry, I feel like I'm just being a nay-sayer and not offering anything constructive, but I still don't think this is the right way to go with combat.


 
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Beeps
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 05:33 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana

Er, I don't think that having options to use items in stacked rounds is a good thing. "Burning through Improbability Bombs"--the only reason to do that is to milk it for req, charm or cigs, and I don't feel like that's the way it was intended. Imp Bombs, to me, are to make combat a bit more unpredictable, and being able to toss 10 in a row seems to defeat that.


I can see where you're coming from with this. Run before last, I was using Imp. Bombs as a more interesting way to boat myself than grinding Reinforcement. Cigs and charm were just a bonus to me.

Quote by: Iriana

And like Maniak said, why waste ZAPs or WHOOMPHs by throwing 5 in a row? The effects don't stack anyways.


It could theoretically be something that gave the option to do this, but to me it was more a "simplify the code side" thing - Far easier to treat all items equally than to try to give special consideration to item x, y, and z on tuesdays - and assume the players would know the correct usage, or to avoid certain options. (See also - selling your backpack for a smaller one, using Spatial Awareness buffs more than once per battle, selling your current weapon to buy the same weapon...)

Quote by: Iriana

Plus, in my opinion, this is veering over into "no skill/thought/humans required". Which is not what should happen.


Again, I can see why you'd think that, but I disagree to some extent. Having the ability to ronsen-kiai ten times in a row would definitely increase my interest in it. As it stands, the only reason I've used it any was to see how it worked and what it looked like. Since the actual effect doesn't seem much better than a normal attack, I ended up not doing anything with it past level 4 or so.

Quote by: Iriana

In opposition to Beeps, I prefer the least amount of stuff rather than whited-out options if you can't take them. If I can't go north, no need to spend a line telling me I can't go north. Just a matter of personal preference, but I thought I'd mention it.


Personal preferences either way. My first thought was that it might be due to the difference in navigation tools (You mentioned using it on your mobile). With a mouse, Being able to rely on north always being under the mouse makes travel easier and more reliable. However, since I assume (Bad, I know) the mobile players rely more on key commands, it seems like the chance of them changing suddenly could be equally annoying. I realize that blocking off the navigation doesn't entirely fix that, though.

Quote by: Iriana

And I'd just like to throw in there that there are people who play on phones or other mobile devices... I don't know how much of a consideration this is for CMJ, but I do play on a phone about half the time and the more complicated the keyboard shortcuts are, the less fun it is to do combat.


I think this actually speaks volumes. Again, the intent seemed to be to cut down on the button presses and page loads that would be needed to achieve 5, 10, or more uses of a skill, which would seem beneficial to mobile players. To have one stating specifically that they don't want this if it muddles with things tells me that my understanding of the mobile use mindset is flawed.

Quote by: Iriana

Sorry, I feel like I'm just being a nay-sayer and not offering anything constructive, but I still don't think this is the right way to go with combat.


I do sort of agree with you when it comes to combat. A lot of the changes suggested for the navigation are the sort of thing that would simply be "This doesn't benefit you but if you want to you can do it" sort of thing. But I've completely forgone targeted combat, timed combat, ronsen-kiai, and so forth because it makes my fights take far longer, and being able to have similar options for these skills would be appreciated. Several veteran players have mentioned how gameplay becomes, "*T*T*T*T*T*THC*T*T*T*T*T*THC..." On the other hand, it seems like this is a must for training. As mentioned earlier, when the game's mechanic is dull and uninteresting, it definitely makes the bot/macro option enticing.
And again, the suggested layout is only one possible solution. I'd love to see others, since everything I've come up with thus far has been pretty much as clunky as this was. Though I think I've hijacked the topic completely. Frown


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Matthew
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 05:55 AM UTC  
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If the concern is the space that more options would take up, why not streamline them a little better? One that I think could work might be...

(using this example: http://i.imgur.com/wmNKA.jpg And bold being hotkeys.)

Standard Fighting
Fight ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Run
Ronsen-Kiai
Classy ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Confusing ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Coarse ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Targeted Fighting
piggy nose ( 5 / 10 / Death)
piggy toes ( 5 / 10 / Death)
piggy slavering maw of doom ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Use Fight Items
ZAP Grenade
WHOOMPH Grenade
BANG Grenade

In targeted fighting, "aim for the" is extremely redundant and just wastes space, I think. Also, notice how Ronsen-Kiai is before targeted fighting; so the hotkeys stay constant.

Though this isn't perfect; in the case of the "slavering maw of doom", the line might be a bit too long.

edit: Or like so:
Standard Fighting
Fight
( 5 / 10 / Death)
Run
Ronsen-Kiai
Classy
( 5 / 10 / Death)
Confusing
( 5 / 10 / Death)
Coarse
( 5 / 10 / Death)
Targeted Fighting
piggy nose
( 5 / 10 / Death)
piggy toes
( 5 / 10 / Death)
piggy slavering maw of doom
( 5 / 10 / Death)
Use Fight Items
ZAP Grenade
WHOOMPH Grenade
BANG Grenade

Takes more more room, yes, but it's still not so bad. I guess the question is: why do Standard Fighting and Automatic Fighting have to be two separate things? They can easily be lumped into one.


 
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