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Beeps
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 06:01 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Matthew

If the concern is the space that more options would take up, why not streamline them a little better? One that I think could work might be...

(using this example: http://i.imgur.com/wmNKA.jpg And bold being hotkeys.)

Standard Fighting
Fight ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Run
Ronsen-Kiai
Classy ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Confusing ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Coarse ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Targeted Fighting
piggy nose ( 5 / 10 / Death)
piggy toes ( 5 / 10 / Death)
piggy slavering maw of doom ( 5 / 10 / Death)
Targeted Fighting
ZAP Grenade
WHOOMPH Grenade
BANG Grenade

In targeted fighting, "aim for the" is extremely redundant and just wastes space, I think. Also, notice how Ronsen-Kiai is before targeted fighting; so the hotkeys stay constant.

Though this isn't perfect; in the case of the "slavering maw of doom", the line might be a bit too long.


This actually brings up something someone mentioned in another thread, and something I'd considered doing in my example. People had mentioned that having the Ronsen-Kiai somewhere where their keys would be reliable would be preferred. I'd considered suggesting changing the targeted section to "Aim for the :" instead of "Targeted Fighting," because of the redundancy. On the other hand, I suppose the redundancy does allow for the keys to reliably be "A," "I," "M," so forth.

I think due to the length of the last one, it would end up wrapping and being
piggy slavering maw
of doom ( 5 / 10 / Death)

However, this could also end up looking like:
piggy slavering maw
of doom ( 5 / 10 /
Death)
which could be messy.


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Matthew
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 06:10 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Beeps

I think due to the length of the last one, it would end up wrapping and being
piggy slavering maw
of doom ( 5 / 10 / Death)

However, this could also end up looking like:
piggy slavering maw
of doom ( 5 / 10 /
Death)
which could be messy.


Right- which is why I'd edited my post to include that other option. It's just about twice as long, but still short enough, I think? I don't know, I've never used the Island from a cell phone.

Quote by: BeepsPeople had mentioned that having the Ronsen-Kiai somewhere where their keys would be reliable would be preferred. I'd considered suggesting changing the targeted section to "Aim for the :" instead of "Targeted Fighting," because of the redundancy. On the other hand, I suppose the redundancy does allow for the keys to reliably be "A," "I," "M," so forth.

Personally, I'd much rather have insult fighting be consistent than targeted fighting. After all, not all monsters even have different parts, and not all monsters have the same parts, so it couldn't possibly have any consistency anyway.


 
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Beeps
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 06:13 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Matthew

Quote by: Beeps

I think due to the length of the last one, it would end up wrapping and being
piggy slavering maw
of doom ( 5 / 10 / Death)

However, this could also end up looking like:
piggy slavering maw
of doom ( 5 / 10 /
Death)
which could be messy.


Right- which is why I'd edited my post to include that other option. It's just about twice as long, but still short enough, I think? I don't know, I've never used the Island from a cell phone.

Quote by: BeepsPeople had mentioned that having the Ronsen-Kiai somewhere where their keys would be reliable would be preferred. I'd considered suggesting changing the targeted section to "Aim for the :" instead of "Targeted Fighting," because of the redundancy. On the other hand, I suppose the redundancy does allow for the keys to reliably be "A," "I," "M," so forth.

Personally, I'd much rather have insult fighting be consistent than targeted fighting. After all, not all monsters even have different parts, and not all monsters have the same parts, so it couldn't possibly have any consistency anyway.


I quoted you too fast, it wasn't there!
And I didn't mean that switching the two would change that. I meant removing the "Aim for" part would change the key commands. Personally, I do like the layout you've got, though. Playing devil's advocate, as it were.


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Iriana
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 08:48 AM UTC  
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Sorry, bit of a muddled reply here, but:

I actually don't disagree with wanting to make Insulting a multiple-round option. What I was mainly trying to mention was item multiple-rounding, which I do think removes some of the element of "skill" of combat. BANG grenades are straight damage, so 5/10/death with BANGs make more sense to me, but with other items, it seems silly to just throw out everything in your pack at an enemy. I wish I could explain this better, but I just don't like it. Confused (/fail)

Whited-out options:
My thing with this is that if an option isn't available and the link for it is subsequently taken out, it clears up the screen a bit. It's important when your screen is small! And I just don't like clutter. However, it'd also be nice for every shortcut to stay more or less the same during one particular battle. But whether or not the option disappears if it's unavailable doesn't solve this--the shortcut can't be clickable if you can't do it, so the hotkey system will still reassign the hotkey. This is a different issue with the actual system, right? So, immaterial.

It certainly depends on the phone, whether mobile players use hotkeys or actual clicking of links. I have an older phone with a physical full keyboard and a slow processor, so I use hotkeys exclusively--all those young whippersnappers have those fancy touchscreens now, though.

I think this actually speaks volumes. Again, the intent seemed to be to cut down on the button presses and page loads that would be needed to achieve 5, 10, or more uses of a skill, which would seem beneficial to mobile players. To have one stating specifically that they don't want this if it muddles with things tells me that my understanding of the mobile use mindset is flawed.

That's true. The less times you have to do something, the better. But in my experience, playing with a mobile phone involves a lot of memorizing common hotkeys, and if those keys changed a lot, it'd be irritating to have to keep scrolling around and looking for the links sidebar. It's possible to play without ever looking at the nav links, if you know the hotkeys, but that relies on them not movin' around that much.

(Another thing with phones was that you or someone else mentioned shortcuts involving shift and alt and ctrl--that would be horrific, if it were even possible, on a mobile phone. ><)

For the record, there are three skins that I've found bearable to play with from a phone: Accessible, Accessible (Nav links at top) and Mobile. The Mobile and Nav links at top are both still awkward because of the mass of links filling up most of the screen at any pageload; you have to scroll down to see anything of interest. Say, a timed fighting mark, or a monster's level. Which is bad, because it involves more movement. It's cumbersome to play with the current amount of combat links; more would probably not help.

So I'm accustomed to using the Accessible skin--but then all the nav links are at the bottom, and you'd have to scroll all the way past commentary (in outposts) and the description (for monsters) to get to the navs. This means that I'd never bother to scroll down, and I'd just memorize hotkeys. Which means they have to stay more or less static, or bad Faily things begin to happen. Either way, it's a little odd.

That was definitely too long an explanation for the topic. Neutral But, well. Sorry again.

...Wait a second, this just occurred to me: What about having a "do last action 5/10/to the death?"
Instead of needing a whole mess of links on every combat pageload, why not just offer the option to repeat the last fighting option you pressed?
This really did just occur to me, so I haven't actually thought about it or whether it'd be a partial solution to the problem. I am a noncaffeinated mess. Please shoot this idea down for me, thanks.

/finally done


 
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Beeps
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 08:54 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana

...it seems silly to just throw out everything in your pack at an enemy...


We need this feature. Thread over, someone make a "throw everything in your pack at the enemy" button.

Quote by: Iriana


...Wait a second, this just occurred to me: What about having a "do last action 5/10/to the death?"
Instead of needing a whole mess of links on every combat pageload, why not just offer the option to repeat the last fighting option you pressed?
This really did just occur to me, so I haven't actually thought about it or whether it'd be a partial solution to the problem. I am a noncaffeinated mess. Please shoot this idea down for me, thanks.


Actually, I love that idea. That's a far more elegant solution. It's sort of like how Reinforcement does it (Reinforce once, then you have the option to do it ten times). A "repeat last selection" option would be super.


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Awesome Fred
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 09:16 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana


(Another thing with phones was that you or someone else mentioned shortcuts involving shift and alt and ctrl--that would be horrific, if it were even possible, on a mobile phone. ><)



There is no grave mark (`) on the iPod Touch that I can see. I cannot use color codes, bold, or italics from it.

Quote by: Iriana


...Wait a second, this just occurred to me: What about having a "do last action 5/10/to the death?"
Instead of needing a whole mess of links on every combat pageload, why not just offer the option to repeat the last fighting option you pressed?
This really did just occur to me, so I haven't actually thought about it or whether it'd be a partial solution to the problem. I am a noncaffeinated mess. Please shoot this idea down for me, thanks.

/finally done



BRILLIANT!


 
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Beeps
 Thursday, January 13 2011 @ 10:01 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

There is no grave mark (`) on the iPod Touch that I can see. I cannot use color codes, bold, or italics from it.


That's apple for you. No customization. Conform! Eek!


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Iriana
 Friday, January 14 2011 @ 12:26 AM UTC  
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Ohgod, yes. The mark only appears in the list of possible special symbols in Opera Mini, and not in my phone's built-in browser (which I have to use because Javascript doesn't work in Opera Mini, meaning no shortcuts, meaning massive pain in the butt). So I have to open Opera, copy/paste the mark, then copy/paste it into the phone's WAP browser if I want to talk. I've started using a text document containing the mark so I can find it without waiting for Opera to start up. But I can't think of a better way to do colorcodes, so I won't complain.

If you can copy/paste on an iTouch you could go to the tgw-wikidot colors page and c/p what code you want, but I'm pretty sure Apple didn't figure out that copy/paste existed till the last version or two, so you may be out of luck.

Hey, I had a useful idea! (Be right back, got to throw myself a party.) It's still two clicks, but it's better than mashing keys repeatedly. And hotkeys'd stay the same, how nice. What would this be like to code?


 
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Matthew
 Sunday, January 16 2011 @ 06:14 AM UTC  
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edit: you know what? Nevermind.


 
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Miss Hellebore
 Sunday, January 16 2011 @ 05:24 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Beeps

That's apple for you.



Cry *sniffle*


 
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Iriana
 Sunday, January 16 2011 @ 11:54 PM UTC  
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Apple... makes fun things, and pretty things, and sometimes powerful, cool things, but weirdly enough it doesn't seem to understand its customers. It refuses to give people the most basic things, which reminds me of something: Fred, you wouldn't be able to use my trick because you can't copy/paste on an iAnything. That in particular strikes me as being really dumb, because generic phones from five years ago could copy/paste. It's sad to see that iPods and iPhones can't.

/wonders what Matthew said


 
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Beeps
 Sunday, January 16 2011 @ 11:56 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Iriana


/wonders what Matthew said


He'd put up a suggestion for a UI change to how equipment was displayed on the stat bar, I think. Or maybe that was another thread.


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Bakemaster
 Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 03:59 PM UTC  
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I enjoy the way in which this thread illustrates the process of semi-constructive topic drift.

Regarding the issue of what's reasonable to want to do with your time, I'd like to think we all agree on one point that has been repeated in thread after thread—nobody wants to sit there pressing "P" endlessly to achieve some non-arbitrary goal. I say non-arbitrary because there are silly goals which have nothing to do with anything, and then there are goals that would be silly and arbitrary if they didn't a) provide some kind of game advantage, and b) provide a high score ranking. I'm talking, of course, about various stamina-using skills.

I'd like to think we all agree on that one point, but I have the sneaking suspicion that we don't; at least, not 100%. I have the sneaking suspicion that there are a significant number of players out there who think that there's some virtue in preserving the status quo, merely because this is an awesome game and so its basic assumptions (such as "you will press a button a bunch of times to do many varied tasks", a staple of the genre) must also be generally awesome. Maybe I'm imagining things. I hope so.

Personally, I think this game is only awesome in spite of the ways in which it conforms to the genre. Personally, I find it pretty gross that anyone would defend a mechanic which rewards players—in multiple ways!—for performing tasks which could be perfectly replicated with a minimal amount of scripting.

But there are easier ways to address that sort of mechanic than by scrambling to make it simpler (I might point out that the simplicity of the mechanic is a large part of why it could be replicated by a mere whiff of code). How about removing some of the motivation? Dan, you've remarked before about how much of a resource suck the Hall of Fame can be. Why not take some things out? A large part of why people will sit there mindlessly grinding skills is that they want to see their character in a hall of fame list. They want a number one to the left of their name. Never mind why it's satisfying.

Alternatively, a bunch of work could be put into increasing the amount of tactical thinking required to be successful in "everyday" activities around the Island, most notably combat. Why should I be able to project a constant scream of insults at my foe? Have I got iron lungs? Well, I don't know much about Robot and Joker anatomy, but also—doesn't my enemy get used to it after a round or two? These aren't arguments for why the mechanic should be changed; they're handy justifications. The mechanic should be changed because it's strategically empty. The amount of repetition involved in a single play session means that most random effects are averaged out over a huge number of iterations of each mechanic; the "best" option can usually be divined independently of situational concerns. Yeah, sometimes in a pinch you need to make the right choice to avoid death; but not in most encounters. (And before anyone implies I just don't know how it is on harder ranks, do yourself a favor and go check my profile.)

In a nutshell: Insults could be given a long cool-down or a limited daily use, and made significantly more powerful AND/OR more tactical (less general-purpose) to compensate. Carcass cleaning could be available only infrequently (say, when you killed your enemy in just the right way - dispatching it with a BANG certainly wouldn't qualify) and the meat obtained more valuable to sell or to consume. The combat experience could involve more planning and decision-making in general. I'd like to see the day come when your particular equipment set-up determines which enemies you can reliably dispatch; where good all-around equipment exists but is less powerful, so that players on difficult ranks are forced to specialize and run from some monsters at any level while being able to easily dispatch others because they happen to be packing a piercing weapon instead of a flamethrower.

Can you still replicate those decisions with code? Yeah. Odds are, any game you write in code, can be played with code. But it would be a lot harder; more importantly, there'd be a lot less incentive, because making decisions is fun. Pressing buttons is not.


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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 07:16 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Bakemaster

I'd like to think we all agree on that one point, but I have the sneaking suspicion that we don't; at least, not 100%. I have the sneaking suspicion that there are a significant number of players out there who think that there's some virtue in preserving the status quo, merely because this is an awesome game and so its basic assumptions (such as "you will press a button a bunch of times to do many varied tasks", a staple of the genre) must also be generally awesome. Maybe I'm imagining things. I hope so.

Yes, you are imagining things. You are imagining the motives of someone who doesn't think like you, and -- not surprisingly -- failing.
Personally, I think this game is only awesome in spite of the ways in which it conforms to the genre. Personally, I find it pretty gross that anyone would defend a mechanic which rewards players—in multiple ways!—for performing tasks which could be perfectly replicated with a minimal amount of scripting.
Fair enough. No-one can argue with that. Those are your personal reactions, and you are the supreme expert on those.
But there are easier ways to address that sort of mechanic than by scrambling to make it simpler (I might point out that the simplicity of the mechanic is a large part of why it could be replicated by a mere whiff of code). How about removing some of the motivation? Dan, you've remarked before about how much of a resource suck the Hall of Fame can be. Why not take some things out? A large part of why people will sit there mindlessly grinding skills is that they want to see their character in a hall of fame list. They want a number one to the left of their name. Never mind why it's satisfying.
The Hall of Fame is a significant part of the game for many players. The competitive drive to get to 100% first, or to move up in the rankings, provides considerable motivation and entertainment, and even keeps some people coming back to the game. Not you, I accept that. But me, quite often. And, looking at the Hall of Fame... clearly a lot of players have found a certain amount of satisfaction in achieving their rankings. Not everyone cares about every list, but people do pick a list as a long-term goal and then keep coming back to play in such a way as to move up the list. It is a game-simulation of reputation.

The very last thing that should happen, therefore, is to drop any part of the Hall of Fame. Why remove any feature that makes the game sticky for some players?

An achievement is always more satisfying if it was difficult. This isn't to argue against shortcuts; if a x10 shortcut is added for cooking, for instance... (a skill that used to be very much worth maxing out but isn't any more) the people who ground their way through Maiko's with hours and hours of repeated key-pressing will still know that they did it the hard way. When new HoF lists are added, though, I hope they will be for skills that a) confer a game advantage of some sort, and b) call for some strategy to maximize progress.


 
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Beeps
 Tuesday, January 18 2011 @ 07:32 PM UTC  
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While not necessarily constructive or helpful, I'd like to add that my main use for the Hall of Fame for action levels is to see how much experience I'll need to max something out, if someone else has maxed it out, and to compare the general idea of what I'm doing to that of others - If my skill in ______ is way higher and my skill in _____ is way lower than veterans, I look into why that is and if it's something I want to change about how I play. I'm not really interested in being number one. I stopped training Cooking when I hit 100. I continue to train Reinforcement because it helps the outpost I'm in, and it's one of the few things a player can do all the way to 20% stamina. Until I find something else that I can reliably grind that last 40% of my stamina on where most skills lock you out, I'll likely continue doing it.


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Bakemaster
 Wednesday, January 19 2011 @ 02:39 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Yes, you are imagining things. You are imagining the motives of someone who doesn't think like you, and -- not surprisingly -- failing.


Wait, so am I imagining things, or failing to imagine them?

In all seriousness, and with respect, I don't think you're in any more position to read the minds of the player base than I am. Take myself, for example. I totally buy into the HoF thing! I'm a very competitive person and get a lot of satisfaction from having my name on a list. I mean, I just took a long break to deal with a wicked course load, and since logging back in again I've spent more time grinding Carcass Cleaning than anything else.

I know the HoF is very significant to many players, and I'm not saying "let's get rid of it!" But I am suggesting that maybe it should be pared down, despite its popularity, in the interest of the game as a whole. Why remove a feature if it's popular? Oh wow, that could be the subject of a panel discussion at a big game expo. I'd attend the hell out of that panel. It's a fascinating question, and no doubt a contentious one. In this case it seems to me that people spend a hell of a lot of time complaining about the demands of grinding up a skill. Demands! Who on Earth is demanding they do such a thing?

Nobody's demanding it. But someone has set up a bushel of road signs pointing that way, hinting that this is a thing to be done, setting up a framework for reward—and an essentially limiting framework, too! You're not done at level 100 when raw exp is tracked; there can be only one King of the Carcass! I'd be the last person to say that's not an exciting thing to think about; and yet, is it a good thing to encourage? Yeah, it provides a motivation for some players who aren't motivated by anything else. It's also the source of a lot of moaning, and some people get burned out by the repetition who might have had more fun otherwise, contributed more and for a longer period.

I would question the hell out of the suggestion that attaining level 100 in any particular skill is difficult. There is a world of difference between something which is difficult, and something which is merely time-consuming. (We could argue semantics a while over whether it's difficult to commit the time, or difficult to find some sort of mental strength for never giving up in one's quest to press "P" so-many-million times, but that would be endlessly dull.) In order for something to be difficult, you have to be able to fail at it. How does one fail at pressing a button on the keyboard?

I guess some would answer, "By wasting their lives doing it so-many-million times!" while others would answer, "By writing a script so they don't have to!" I think the fact that those are the only options we're presented is the true failure. It's a failure of the genre as well as of its adherents, among whom I might name myself. Ho hum. Crack is tasty, innit?


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Anonymous: Sorleia
 Friday, October 21 2011 @ 07:34 PM UTC  


Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Is it bragging or shamefully admitting when I say that I grinded Cooking, Cleaning the Carcass, and all 3 Insults all to 100? At Kittania, I couldn't even mindlessly repeat until out of stamina, because I BOUGHT WHITE SPRINGS WATER EVERY TWENTY ACTIONS.

On that note, drinks should also fill the player up a bit.



Wait... If you don't mind me asking, why would you grind Carcass Cleaning and Cooking? I seem to only get fat and waste stamina off of those. Are they useful when leveled up?


 
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talkydoor
 Friday, October 21 2011 @ 09:46 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Sorleia

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Is it bragging or shamefully admitting when I say that I grinded Cooking, Cleaning the Carcass, and all 3 Insults all to 100? At Kittania, I couldn't even mindlessly repeat until out of stamina, because I BOUGHT WHITE SPRINGS WATER EVERY TWENTY ACTIONS.

On that note, drinks should also fill the player up a bit.



Wait... If you don't mind me asking, why would you grind Carcass Cleaning and Cooking? I seem to only get fat and waste stamina off of those. Are they useful when leveled up?



Sorleia, eating from cleaning carcasses never used to make you fat at all. Before that, IIRC I don't think it even filled you up at all. So it used to be a really worthwhile skill. Now, not so much. Smile


 
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wvf
 Friday, October 21 2011 @ 10:38 PM UTC  
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Yeah -- I think the stamina gained from the carcasses is a bit low now to be worth it. Better saving the space for restaurant food. Also: Awesome+Fred, you have an incredible amount of persistence. Eek! How long did that take you?


 
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Awesome Fred
 Saturday, October 22 2011 @ 03:05 AM UTC  
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I guess necro'd threads aren't much of a bother to these forums, with how slowly they move anyway. (Not an insult, just a neutral statement.) Yeah, I am a man of patience and moreover, I don't value my time at all, because I'm a lazy college student with parents that support me. It took me 3ish hours per day for several days to grind the latter 80 or so levels of Carcass Cleaning and Cooking, if I remember correctly. They were cheap on req, and the math worked out that it was in my best interest to keep entering the Cool Springs Cafe for more White Springs Water, so I just kept grinding it.

The real reason I grinded it was three-fold.

1) I wanted another skill to get maxed out.
2) In case Carcass Cleaning became worth it at high levels (it... wasn't really, and once it was fixed to fill you up, it definitely isn't anymore.)
3) I really just wanted to get another skill maxed out.


I wonder with this necro, we'll talk about this issue again? I forgot about this topic, it's really interesting.


 
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