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Beeps
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 02:24 AM UTC  
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C is used by insults.


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CavemanJoe
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 03:00 AM UTC  
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All of the number keys will be used up - there's no reason we can't put "T" back where it is, other than that people seem to prefer "D."


 
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Iriana
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 03:09 AM UTC  
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+/- is actually easier on my phone than %. It requires a two-key thing with a function key, but even the original 5 and 1 required a shift-key.

Symbols are probably not a good idea, for phones, at least. While the presence of letters and basic punctuation will be about the same for every phone, the fancier symbols are variable over different sorts of keyboards.

That aside, I think the basic idea here is to avoid two-key combinations as far as possible. This is better for phones, laptops, and everyone in general. Personally, I have a half-size shift key, so shift combos will be difficult to get used to. I think the bottom keys (Z, X, B, N) might work for fighting keys. Easy enough to access with the left hand. Z and X would do for 5 and 10 rounds respectively. Periods . and commas , aren't a bad idea either, since they're present on phones, unless we're trying to keep to the left hand.

What might be helpful is if we had a list of all the keys currently being used for combat. There's R un, F ight, A drenaline, P ainkillers, S timpack, M idget Rage... Well, I don't know them all, for implants and races, but it'd be easier to figure out what's not being used that way.


edit
Dammit, ZAP and BANG grenades.


edit edit

Beeps:

The -/+ options were shot down by laptop and mobile users. So my first thought is for them to give us some suggestions for those of us who don't use those, to give us a better idea of what they have.


I have:

not requiring a shift- or function-key
A-Z / , . '

accessible from the keyboard with a shift- or function-key
! " & - + _ * # ? ( ) ; : \ = 1-0

accessible by scrolling through a symbol menu
all the other things not already listed. % ^ [ ] { } < > etc.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 03:35 AM UTC  
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Well, first off, what do people consider their default hand placements? In a lot of games I play, the control setup is for the left side of the keyboard to be used, while the mouse gets used in the right hand. In older or more basic games, instead they have numpad controls, but obviously that poses problems for new technologies that play the game, regardless of hand placement.

If people play with both hands on their keyboard and not their mouse, then it becomes significantly easier to decide on hotkeys.

If we want the game to support Left-Hand Only Required, with the addition of No Two Key Combinations, then factoring Smartphone Keyboard setups, we've got three parameters to work with.

With my tiny hand, I can comfortably only as far right as 5, t, g, and v. The NoKeyCombo clause removes `, !,@,#,$, and % from our possibilities, but that's fine. ! is used for Have a Smoke in the Jungle menu anyway, and we don't want to have a repeat of the Coarse Insult spamming causing lung cancer problem again. (Man, you know how many lives were made better with the change to dedicate ! to Have a Smoke? You've added a lot of great features and fixed a lot of bugs, sure, but that hotkey change is pretty much the best thing that ever happened ever.) Anyhoo, CMJ just said 1,2,3,4,5 will all be used up. So none of that. So we now have

qwert
asdfg
zxcv

I suggest we do the following:

F stays as Fight.
R stays as Run.
Q becomes Fight x 5.
W becomes Fight x 10.
E becomes Fight til Death.

I am less attached to the next part of my suggestion:

Z becomes Coarse Insults.
X becomes Confusing Insults.
C becomes Classy Insults.

Then, Implant options should simply keep a standard left-to-right.

1st option should be A.
2nd option should be S.
3rd option should be D.
4th option should be... G?
5th option should be... T?
6th should be V, I guess.
Chemical High should be SPACEBAR! (I don't think any other implant gives 7 options, right?)

Hrm. Anyway.

Items and Aimed Combat can just be "whatever letter is firstly available according to the text". Things like that can be outside the Left Hand Zone, because they're not things meant to be spammable. You actually have to put thought into choosing when to use them, so you can also muster the energy to move your hand for that one. Is that a fair rationale?


EDIT:

Oh, I forgot to say. I hope that Collapsible Menu Headers are on the table, because that will allow us to really expand our options while controlling clutter on the screen. That will be best for getting x5 and x10 of each insult, and navigating your own dwelling's options (that one is really ridiculous).

Also, as a bandaid for now, get rid of the separation of Standard and Automatic Fighting. Just make it Standard Fighting with Fight, Run, Fight x 5, Fight x 10, and Fight to Death.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 03:55 AM UTC  
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Double posting. If I say it, it makes it okay.

I said before what my hand comfortably reaches. I was, however, forgetting that I was in QWE mode. That is, I rested my fingertips specifically on that row. When I rest my ring, middle, and index fingers on ASD, my scope changes.

QWERTY
ASDFGH
ZXCVB

Since 12345 are already going to be used for something else apparently, we don't need to be in range of that. If we consider this set of keys with the previous restrictions, we can do something else:

F = Fight
R = Run
Q = Fight 5
W = Fight 10
E = Fight to Death

T = Implant 1
Y = Implant 2
G = Implant 3
H = Implant 4
V = Implant 5
B = Implant 6
SPACEBAR = Implant 7

A = Aimed Combat

Z = Coarse
X = Confusing
C = Classy

That makes S and D useful for the other things like Items and Racial features, right?

EDIT: I always post before I finish thinking. Both my QWE mode and my ASD mode also feature the fact that I rest my pinky on the Shift key always. Technically, I can go further right on the keyboard then that, but I'll start expending more energy and probably move my wrist ever so slightly. The QWE and ASD Pinky Shift positions I said before require no wrist movement at all. And again, I have very small hands.


 
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Maniak
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 07:59 AM UTC  
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I like Awesome Fred's list, I'm a fan of left hand-system. I don't know if an entire reshuffle of the keys is necessary but it seems appealing enough.

I put in my vote for QWE.


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Raidur
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 09:48 AM UTC  
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I'd have to go with Fred's first list, myself. It keeps the actual combat keys relatively easy to reach, and I usually click on else anyway, making qwe good for the three combat length options.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 11:38 AM UTC  
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On a related note, is the targeted fighting gone for good now? I suspect that most serious gamers ignored those mostly, but I rather liked them, they added that little extra depth of background for me.

If they are gone permanently, could I request that the Angry Midget lvl 1 encounter is rewritten slightly to include the Skronky Pot Protector Badge in the description?


 
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Zolotisty
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 12:10 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

On a related note, is the targeted fighting gone for good now? I suspect that most serious gamers ignored those mostly, but I rather liked them, they added that little extra depth of background for me.



Targeted fighting is not, itself, necessarily gone for good. Wink


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Matthew
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 05:41 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

I suggest we do the following:

F stays as Fight.
R stays as Run.
Q becomes Fight x 5.
W becomes Fight x 10.
E becomes Fight til Death.



I actually quite like this- the idea of the qweasdzxc side of the keyboard being dedicated for the combat. It seems to solve a lot of problems quite nicely.

Another idea would be to completely remove hotkeys from implants and racial abilities and such. You simply don't use them enough to warrant needing quick access, I think.


 
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Marly
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 07:41 PM UTC  
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I am all for any change to the hotkeys for the 5-round and 10-round fighting that doesn't need a shift. I really don't care besides that. There is nothing more annoying, in my mind, than pounding on a titan ten rounds at a time and having to hit a shift-key every step of the way. I can already feel my hand cramping up at the idea.

I like Awesome Fred's idea of Q, W, and E. It sounds really practical for those of us without a number pad.


 
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Trowa
 Tuesday, May 10 2011 @ 08:12 PM UTC  
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Trying to be efficient with my post, so...

Quote by: Matthew

Another idea would be to completely remove hotkeys from implants and racial abilities and such. You simply don't use them enough to warrant needing quick access, I think.



...except for the head-mounted laser, servo arms, tesla frame, and robot healing/cooldown (maybe that's just me, though, but the robot options would be a lot easier with hotkeys that weren't numbers).


Quote by: Zolotisty

Targeted fighting is not, itself, necessarily gone for good. Wink



I was wondering what happened to it! I was cataloging monsters from Level 1 earlier today and spotted the lack of targets right away.


Quote by: Awesome+Fred

{A lot of cool ideas}



I'm also a left-handed jungle fighter and traveler (Sinister Dexter!). I use the same laptop no matter where I am, and have a docking station at the office with a keyboard+number pad and a mouse, but when I'm at home I only use the basic keyboard of the laptop (which I had to pop some keys off to keep myself from Badnav'ing on accident so frequently). So, a system that is consistent across race and implants would be very desirable. I would like it if we used the nine letters on left hand side for the big stuff, like Fred outlined. Maybe make the hunting options: (G) Easy Trouble, (T) Trouble, (B) Big Trouble, and keep (*) for suicidal.


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Count Sessine
 Wednesday, May 11 2011 @ 12:15 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Marly

I am all for any change to the hotkeys for the 5-round and 10-round fighting that doesn't need a shift. I really don't care besides that. There is nothing more annoying, in my mind, than pounding on a titan ten rounds at a time and having to hit a shift-key every step of the way. I can already feel my hand cramping up at the idea.

I like Awesome Fred's idea of Q, W, and E. It sounds really practical for those of us without a number pad.

Count me amongst those who really, really do not want 10-round fighting to require a shift. My fingers and wrists are not as young as they used to be, and RSI is a whole lot of nofun. I would like to avoid that source of pain, please.


 
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Beeps
 Wednesday, May 11 2011 @ 05:09 AM UTC  
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While personally I would prefer a right-hand-centric system, having everything in a single part of the keyboard is far more important to me.

Besides, from the sounds of things, we may not be caring what those keys are tied to as much in the coming weeks when we're using the skill actionbar. Wink


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Awesome Fred
 Wednesday, May 11 2011 @ 05:11 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Beeps

While personally I would prefer a right-hand-centric system, having everything in a single part of the keyboard is far more important to me.

Besides, from the sounds of things, we may not be caring what those keys are tied to as much in the coming weeks when we're using the skill actionbar. Wink



So as a lefty, where do you tend to rest your right hand? I assume, of course, that your left hand rests on the mouse on the left side of the keyboard.


 
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Beeps
 Wednesday, May 11 2011 @ 05:17 AM UTC  
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It's more training from working registers and using calculation stuff a lot, so I'm used to doing a lot of typing with solely my right hand. *5*5*5*5 was very convenient because of this. The only times I use my left hand more is for active gaming with WASD controls and whatnot - I've got a fancy keyboard with macro keys that rarely see use because they're by my left pinky.


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Awesome Fred
 Wednesday, May 11 2011 @ 05:56 AM UTC  
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I learned a lot about the idea of Economy of Movement as it applies to gaming thanks to competitive gaming. In Starcraft 1, they had what we do here in Improbable Island, which was simply highlight the first letter of a word as its hotkey. In times of conflict, it would choose another letter of the word. When SC1 was first designed, no one cared about just how much was saved by hotkey choice--in fact, people didn't really even know if using the keyboard was a lot better than using the mouse to simply click on buttons.

Fast forward a decade, and competitive gaming is abound in all different kinds of games. Flash games love their simple WASD, or Z to jump and X to dash. FPS gamers are elitist about using PCs because the mouse gives so much more precision and fast turning than the most sensitive console analog stick. In World of Warcraft, the most hardcore of PvP players (and all Rogues) would bind every single important ability to their 7-13 mouse buttons and scroll wheel, and then deactivate their screen's clickable interface. And in Starcraft 2, designed from the ground up to be for eSports competition, has its default hotkeys all be on the left side. Pylon is no longer P, but E. Same as Probe. S is used for Stop when on units, so Queens use V for their Spawn Larva ability. It's no longer about the names and all about the organization.

The honest truth of the matter is that in any game where you'll use the same hotkey interfaces again and again, ease of access and shortening of movement are vastly more important than relevance of letter. The most frequently-used buttons should be mapped to the keys that require the player to move their digits and hands the least. The keys that should only be pressed intentionally and never accidentally should go in the keys furthest from where players rest their hands or in two-button combinations. People will remember which button is which out of repeated usage. The idea that "Oh, we'll make it T for Looking for Trouble because Trouble begins with T" is only useful for figuring it out easily for the very first times people are going into the Jungle.


 
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Symar
 Wednesday, May 11 2011 @ 11:21 AM UTC  
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For the sake of adding a differing opinion, I mouse-click almost everything, so you can make the hotkeys into anything you want.

Although, if they actually stayed consistent for once I might actually use them. Insult keys changing every battle based on what targets there are kind of made me never seriously try. Although given the state of my keyboard, I probably won't find the keys to press anyway, so it'll stay mouse-clicks.


 
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AliceHeart
 Wednesday, May 11 2011 @ 03:47 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

All of the number keys will be used up - there's no reason we can't put "T" back where it is, other than that people seem to prefer "D."



Would it be too much to ask for T back? Big Grin Pretty please? I keep not swatting the piņata and got failboated for drinking out of the stream unintentionally. If it really really can't be T, can it at least be something that doesn't mess with the "Something Improbable!" events?


 
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tehdave
 Thursday, May 12 2011 @ 03:05 PM UTC  
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Quote by: AliceHeart

Quote by: CavemanJoe

All of the number keys will be used up - there's no reason we can't put "T" back where it is, other than that people seem to prefer "D."



Would it be too much to ask for T back? Big Grin Pretty please? I keep not swatting the piņata and got failboated for drinking out of the stream unintentionally. If it really really can't be T, can it at least be something that doesn't mess with the "Something Improbable!" events?



Agreed - the only Improbable Event that T ever really messed with was the RPS mutant, which was designed with a second screen probably because of the T hotkey assumed to be hit without the event being read.*

I like where Fred is coming from, but I have to say that I don't see II as so much a "competitive" game as...well... It's an RP forum with a game-based story? The fact that the hotkeys generally line up with the wording helps keep that feel. Maybe give an option to players in preferences for "Optimized hotkeys" vs. "Non-disruptive Hotkeys"...disruptive here referring to the fact that the hotkeys in ()** sort of disrupt the immersion?***
____________________________________________________________________

*- You know you....when you use `i on the forum and don't realize why it looks wrong until you hit "preview"
**- Because I hate spelling the word, even with a spellcheck.
***- As much as a fully text-based game can be called "Immersive" from a gameplay standpoint...
****-Damn you Epaphus for giving me the idea to do footnotes...


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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