Enquirer Home Page | Twitter | Back to Improbable Island

 Forum Index > Season Two > Development New Topic Post Reply
 Programming Rants: Commentary and Bios
 |  Printable Version
Sasha
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 08:15 AM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 17

Quote by: Harris

Agreed on the principle of gender display importance being greater than arms and armor display importance, but from the technical aspect, did you know that CMJ has also said that preferences, as a whole, muck up the game?
Also- you jump straight to a "non-binary gendered/ally player must wait until Season Three to feel more OOCly welcome"? Why? This is the same game that has a foetid Midget brothel! In game IS insensitive- it's part of the point.
Out of game, what are you basing that claim on, exactly? I do not refer to indvidual players' actions, of course (sadly, dickheads happen); I mean how have you decided that the game is being run/programmed/written that way?



Erm, the difference between a foetid Midget brothel and how the meta-game addresses non-binary genders ought to be obvious. 1) It's roleplay/gameworld vs. mechanics/meta-game; 2) One is being played for laughs, the other isn't. You might also note I haven't complained about the jungle encounter with Doc. Paprika's whackjob (though come to think of it, I haven't encountered that one in a while) - that's at least in part because it's gameworld silliness.

I am aware there are technical issues surrounding Preferences in general, and said as much in a previous post, and offered two options for avoiding the use of Preferences altogether (that turned out not to be workable ideas, but not being a programmer, I'm used to my programming ideas not actually working). However, going from a system where you can hide your gender and say you are whatever you want without having people just peek at your mouseover and contradict or even challenge you (something that has happened to me more than once) to one where you cannot, and making a stand on that, cannot send a positive message to people negatively affected in one way or another by the gender-binary standard (whether in-character or in Real Life).

And I didn't intend to say "this is how the game is being made," because I'm sure the slight to non-binary people and their allies is unintentional. CMJ's track record (that I've seen) suggests he's a pretty cool frood in general, including gender issues. I'm worried about how this is coming across, not that there's OMG A WAR MARCH FOR DISCRIMINATION going on here. What you quoted me on is simply a somewhat strong (but not hyperbolic, since I don't feel it's an unreasonable inference for someone newer than I am to the Island and its politics) interpretation.

This issue can also be disruptive of some roleplay (and there was enough of a problem with this already).





I hope this makes sense?


 
Profile Email
Quote
Sneaky
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 01:39 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 69

There is no way to teach Timed Combat anymore.


http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/560/004/989.gif
 
Profile Email
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 03:53 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Take the gender conversation into another thread. I appreciate your input, but if we get started on that, then this thread is gonna split in half and tie itself into a knot.


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
tehdave
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 04:02 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 429

Bugs aside, I like the new commentary system, but I just want to know what happened to Custom Races?
Right there, the custom races seems like it would be a good bandaid to the whole gender thing, if you expand the custom race to include gender, so you could say Male/Female/No Answer in it? I know it sounds like a pref, but really, if the game is checking your gender/race anyway, just point it to a different variable (custom race, instead of actual game race, where available) which is what's happening with custom armor/weapons anyway, right?

Then again I could be off base here with my assumption on how the mouseover bios are programmed...

And no, this isn't continuing the Gender Identity thread, this is more a "I want my custom race back! And could we make it just ever so slightly more robust?"


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
Profile Email
Quote
Harris
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 04:08 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 456

Quote by: Sasha

Quote by: Harris

Agreed on the principle of gender display importance being greater than arms and armor display importance, but from the technical aspect, did you know that CMJ has also said that preferences, as a whole, muck up the game?
Also- you jump straight to a "non-binary gendered/ally player must wait until Season Three to feel more OOCly welcome"? Why? This is the same game that has a foetid Midget brothel! In game IS insensitive- it's part of the point.
Out of game, what are you basing that claim on, exactly? I do not refer to indvidual players' actions, of course (sadly, dickheads happen); I mean how have you decided that the game is being run/programmed/written that way?



Erm, the difference between a foetid Midget brothel and how the meta-game addresses non-binary genders ought to be obvious. 1) It's roleplay/gameworld vs. mechanics/meta-game; 2) One is being played for laughs, the other isn't. You might also note I haven't complained about the jungle encounter with Doc. Paprika's whackjob (though come to think of it, I haven't encountered that one in a while) - that's at least in part because it's gameworld silliness.

I am aware there are technical issues surrounding Preferences in general, and said as much in a previous post, and offered two options for avoiding the use of Preferences altogether (that turned out not to be workable ideas, but not being a programmer, I'm used to my programming ideas not actually working). However, going from a system where you can hide your gender and say you are whatever you want without having people just peek at your mouseover and contradict or even challenge you (something that has happened to me more than once) to one where you cannot, and making a stand on that, cannot send a positive message to people negatively affected in one way or another by the gender-binary standard (whether in-character or in Real Life).

And I didn't intend to say "this is how the game is being made," because I'm sure the slight to non-binary people and their allies is unintentional. CMJ's track record (that I've seen) suggests he's a pretty cool frood in general, including gender issues. I'm worried about how this is coming across, not that there's OMG A WAR MARCH FOR DISCRIMINATION going on here. What you quoted me on is simply a somewhat strong (but not hyperbolic, since I don't feel it's an unreasonable inference for someone newer than I am to the Island and its politics) interpretation.

This issue can also be disruptive of some roleplay (and there was enough of a problem with this already).





I hope this makes sense?



I suppose I didn't make my reply clear- I apologize, because imagine that it was my slang usage that muddied my reply. I meant to address the different points for in the game, and in real life as well, but only separated them by saying "In game" and "Out of game".

The difference is; that's why I was taking exception to you naming off only in-game examples, then seemingly citing that there were these in-game examples and out-of game examples (that you never listed) that make the Island an unfriendly place to folk who ascribe to Not Female or Male persuasion. Making such players uncomfortable, I can easily see. But unfriendly? I see nothing of that in the game, or in the evidence you gave. Hence why I wanted to know what you meant by "outright unfriendly to people whose... Real Life selves live outside the artificial gender binary" and calling CMJ's decisions "questionable" (partial quoting is intentional here, as these were the only parts I saw that needed to be argued with) .

Again, the differences between the game itself's presentation, and meta-game presentation IS obvious. Hopefully you can see where your phrasing, however, made it sound like you were sharply criticizing both, and doing so while only supporting your criticism of the game with facts, and not your meta-game criticism.

Thank you, I believe I understand you now. You meant to say 'Here are problems I see in the game now, and here are some potential problems I see coming out of them.'
Right?
If that's the case, I still disagree. I see no evidence anywhere that out of game unfriendliness from the site itself is likely to be a problem. Possible? Sure. Anything's possible. But nothing to suggest that this game will come across as hateful/dismissive/etc. to anyone who really looks at it closely (I say this as a practicing Catholic who has regularly killed and eaten the Pope in this macabre little playground, by the way. I don't like it, but I am damn sure that neither CMJ, nor Emily, nor any of the Moderators mean that encounter as anything other than a silly joke, having seen the rest of the game, and how they run it and create it. They're real hoopy froods, the lot of 'em.).

If I'm not understanding you, please rephrase?


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Harris
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 04:09 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 456

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Take the gender conversation into another thread. I appreciate your input, but if we get started on that, then this thread is gonna split in half and tie itself into a knot.




Crap. Sorry. May I have my post moved?


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 04:21 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Make a new post and copypasta it there.


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Harris
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 04:30 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 456

Done!


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
LydiaDefountain
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 06:33 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 142

Ohhh. Logging back in after doing some deco work at my place and first thought is yay custom races are fixed.. next was oh someone's hidden race.. we have some prefs? next came checking and oh my gosh we can hide clans now too!

Now that is cool! then I did a bit more poking about and noticed the change in the help menu with the special comment explanation and a counter!

I now can clearly see I'm broke and have no comments...! Whoot.. But I can see how it's a awesomely great feature and when I can get more comments I'll know how many I have and plan my scene knowing if I have enough to begin with!

All and all It's looking great!!


 
Profile Email
Quote
Fox Kelfonne
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:09 PM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 03/05/10
Posts: 23

Despite a few hiccups so far, (no easy way to moderate comments in our own places, it seems), it's looking pretty good!

Since /me has gone the way of the dodo with / being reserved for the commands, would it be possible for : to auto-detect whether you have a ' after it or not? I know some other games use it in that fashion, so if I were to type...
:takes a long walk off a short pier.
I would get:
FoxKelfonne takes a long walk off a short pier.
Then if I were to type something like...
:'s recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.
I would get:
FoxKelfonne's recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.

I think it would make things a little simpler if it were possible.


 
Profile Email
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:12 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Quote by: Fox+Kelfonne

Despite a few hiccups so far, (no easy way to moderate comments in our own places, it seems), it's looking pretty good!

Since /me has gone the way of the dodo with / being reserved for the commands, would it be possible for : to auto-detect whether you have a ' after it or not? I know some other games use it in that fashion, so if I were to type...
:takes a long walk off a short pier.
I would get:
FoxKelfonne takes a long walk off a short pier.
Then if I were to type something like...
:'s recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.
I would get:
FoxKelfonne's recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.

I think it would make things a little simpler if it were possible.




...what happens when you try to do that now? Neutral


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
LydiaDefountain
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:18 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 142

It should still work like that as it is : puts the action -right next- to your name so for dark knight...

:takes a walk.

becomes -> dark knighttakes a walk.

I'm used to putting a space between for actions : takes a walk. ect but you can get posessive or even put a comma right beside the name by going :, or :'s or even just :'

I just tested it and it still works just fine like that.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Count Sessine
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:22 PM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 1402

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Fox+Kelfonne

Despite a few hiccups so far, (no easy way to moderate comments in our own places, it seems), it's looking pretty good!

Since /me has gone the way of the dodo with / being reserved for the commands, would it be possible for : to auto-detect whether you have a ' after it or not? I know some other games use it in that fashion, so if I were to type...
:takes a long walk off a short pier.
I would get:
FoxKelfonne takes a long walk off a short pier.
Then if I were to type something like...
:'s recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.
I would get:
FoxKelfonne's recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.

I think it would make things a little simpler if it were possible.




...what happens when you try to do that now? Neutral

There is no automatic space, whether there's an apostrophe present or not. So this works (and is very nice):

:'s recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.
FoxKelfonne's recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.

but this
:takes a long walk off a short pier.
produces
FoxKelfonnetakes a long walk off a short pier.

Edit: Or, yeah... What Lydia said. Having no automatic space is nicer because it's easy to get into the habit of following : with the space bar, and you have the flexibility to do other things, like commas:

FoxKelfonne, despite that dangerous glint in her eye, is always very kind to rookies.


 
Profile Email
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:29 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Fox+Kelfonne

Despite a few hiccups so far, (no easy way to moderate comments in our own places, it seems), it's looking pretty good!

Since /me has gone the way of the dodo with / being reserved for the commands, would it be possible for : to auto-detect whether you have a ' after it or not? I know some other games use it in that fashion, so if I were to type...
:takes a long walk off a short pier.
I would get:
FoxKelfonne takes a long walk off a short pier.
Then if I were to type something like...
:'s recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.
I would get:
FoxKelfonne's recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.

I think it would make things a little simpler if it were possible.




...what happens when you try to do that now? Neutral

There is no automatic space, whether there's an apostrophe present or not. So this works (and is very nice):

:'s recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.
FoxKelfonne's recent travels have been to the beach to swim with the fishes.

but this
:takes a long walk off a short pier.
produces
FoxKelfonnetakes a long walk off a short pier.

Edit: Or, yeah... What Lydia said.



Okay, I get you now. Smile

Are there any circumstances where you would want a lack of a space but not want an apostrophe?


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Count Sessine
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:32 PM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 1402

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Are there any circumstances where you would want a lack of a space but not want an apostrophe?

Answered above.


 
Profile Email
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 07:40 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Aha, I see. Yeah, what with everybody's ingenuity, it's gonna be hard for a program to sense when and when not to include a space, so we're just not gonna include a space.

:AndMac throws a rock at the auto-update javascript and reminds everybody to clear their caches if auto-update is misbehaving.


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Jon Bishop
 Wednesday, December 07 2011 @ 08:41 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 143

Loving the system so far in the fact that it overall looks much cleaner than it did before, when reading comments it seems to flow much, much better. My only real complaint is I think the comments are too close to one another. It may just be the way I read, as my eyes are always accidentally sliding into the wrong line even when I'm reading books, but--still a concern. The comments system doesn't use certain dividers like indentations for new paragraphs, so the comment pages look like walls of text.

Something minor that I think would help is changing where the character information box appears whenever you mouse over someone's name: currently the box blocks off all of the names above the currently highlighted name, so you can't mouse over those other names. Not a deal-breaker by any means, but I think it would feel a little bit nicer, if I ever wanted to see the bios of multiple characters in a scene.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Twosocks Monkey
 Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 12:05 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 01/28/11
Posts: 246

YAY!

Custom Race is fixed, and lots of new fancy ways to hide things.

So far, BEST CHRISTMAS PRESENT EVER!

Thanks CMJ. I know there's a thankyou thread, but I'm putting this here.

THANKS IT'S SO MUCH BETTER ALREADY!!!!

(and hopefully it's making you happier as well).

-moo


moooooooooo Visit and help me finish the monster list: goo.gl/rpBGe (Ya'll mostly know me as CLOG, fyi)
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Lady Akitsu
 Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 02:47 AM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 24

Quote by: Lady+Akitsu

I do have a question, though, about the new Commands. Fine, I hafta get used to using : instead of /me. That's okay. And / is used for commands, right? So what if you're in a Dwelling and the room you want to go to needs a PASSWORD to go through. Like, say... your bedroom. -.- OR THE REST OF YOUR HOUSE.

Help me out here, people.



Did my question get ignored? I don't mean to pester you, but no one else has been willing/able to help. I've tried to type in /password and /PASSWORD. No dice. Please help!


 
Profile Email
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Thursday, December 08 2011 @ 03:52 AM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

Typing in /password should have done the trick. Can you give me a debug output?


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Content generated in: 1.68 seconds
New Topic Post Reply



 All times are UTC. The time is now 03:43 PM.

Normal Topic Normal Topic
Locked Topic Locked Topic
Sticky Topic Sticky Topic
New Post New Post
Sticky Topic W/ New Post Sticky Topic W/ New Post
Locked Topic W/ New Post Locked Topic W/ New Post
View Anonymous Posts 
Anonymous users can post 
Filtered HTML Allowed 
Censored Content