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Trowa
 Thursday, March 21 2013 @ 10:29 PM UTC  
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Okay, so, on the topic of how to do this non-binary gender thing (as opposed to why), I had an idea. I think it's silly, but, maybe it'll be something for us to poke holes in and find a better way. Also, I feel a little responsible for killing this thread, as my post was the last one for a very long time and I kept feeling guilty over it for months now and why didn't anyone say anything what did I do to kill this?! augh!!

Anyway. Oops!

We give players a form to fill out when they sign up a new character. (groan, more paperwork!)

We ask them to enter into a text box the gender they want to be identified as, and in more text boxes we ask for their preferred gender pronouns, citing examples for them to easily understand. Each of those text strings goes into a variable that is later called up during in-game stories like a big mad-libs puzzle for the server.

In my mind, the worst that could happen is people are irresponsible and they see silly stories become even sillier on their own, private screen. Like, "The Watcher turns to her minion, pointing at the contestant on the screen, and commands, 'Bring turpentine* to me.'"

*Where "turpentine" was supposed to be a "him" or "her" or equivalent.


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Full Metal Lion
 Friday, March 22 2013 @ 02:07 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Trowa


We give players a form to fill out when they sign up a new character.


Now, I'm no programmer, but

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Note: suggesting interface ideas for gender options on the sign-up page is like designing a drive train around the colour of the gear shift knob.


 
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Trowa
 Friday, March 22 2013 @ 02:41 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Trowa


We give players a form to fill out when they sign up a new character.


Now, I'm no programmer, but

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Note: suggesting interface ideas for gender options on the sign-up page is like designing a drive train around the colour of the gear shift knob.


Beats the peas outta me, then.


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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dizzyizzy
 Thursday, April 25 2013 @ 07:12 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: dizzyizzy

I wish I had something to contribute to this other than just popping up to attack someone, but I know nothing of programming...



You dug up a seven-month dead thread for that? Neutral



It popped up as new for me!

(Maybe I haven't been around for 7 months... wow.)


 
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CavemanJoe
 Friday, April 26 2013 @ 10:11 PM UTC  
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Quote by: dizzyizzy

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: dizzyizzy

I wish I had something to contribute to this other than just popping up to attack someone, but I know nothing of programming...



You dug up a seven-month dead thread for that? Neutral



It popped up as new for me!

(Maybe I haven't been around for 7 months... wow.)



YOU DUG UP A MONTH-DEAD THREAD FOR THAT.

Neutral Neutral Neutral


 
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John Watson
 Friday, July 19 2013 @ 07:49 PM UTC  
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Re: the Kissing Both, would it be possible to make the gender of the kisser behind the booth of a random gender (ie, you can kiss either a guy or a girl no matter what your own gender may be)? Something like the conversation with the Watcher post-DriveKill - she kisses you and makes references to her implied sexuality without once mentioning what her sexuality or your gender really is, which seems to work well all around.


I will always - *always* - believe in Sherlock Holmes. :still waiting for Season 3*: * by which I mean THE OTHER Season 3
 
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Matthew
 Saturday, July 20 2013 @ 12:59 AM UTC  
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Since this old thread was dug up again, I guess I'll weigh in my thought: eliminate gender from gameplay. It doesn't do anything anyway, and I think there might be a few quests with "he" and "she" that could probably be pretty easily rewritten around that. Just have the races say "Joker" or "Kittymorph" and let the player decide which gender (if any) they want to identify their character with in the bio/mouseover/roleplay. Randomize the kissing booth so that it's just one big pool of names.

If someone really cares about "MY MALE CHARACTER WAS FORCED TO KISS A DUDE THIS OFFENDS MY DEEPLY HELD PERSONAL BELIEFS" I'm not sure we want them around anyway.

Related: get rid of custom races. Allow an item that lets people appear as other canon races (that they have unlocked!), but eliminate the ability to set a completely custom one. It allows people to be jokerfairyfoxmorphingtons at DK 0 and that's always annoyed me a little. Seems like it hurts the roleplay because nobody has to really care anymore.


 
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Waverly
 Saturday, July 20 2013 @ 01:06 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Matthew


Related: get rid of custom races. Allow an item that lets people appear as other canon races (that they have unlocked!), but eliminate the ability to set a completely custom one. It allows people to be jokerfairyfoxmorphingtons at DK 0 and that's always annoyed me a little. Seems like it hurts the roleplay because nobody has to really care anymore.





I actually don't agree... the custom race option allows for a lot of creativity and highjinks. Also, allowing people to choose a different canon unlocked race is pointless. The only reason to do so would be because you want to do something like play Midget with Joker stats (something I know you like to do, admit it) but it gets rid of your pet peeve.

I find people's custom races amusing, I use them myself, and it makes CMJ money. I'd be disappointed if they went away.


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Omega
 Saturday, July 20 2013 @ 04:07 AM UTC  
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I'd prefer having a cheaper item that does what Matthrew asked, and a more expensive one that functions normally, or not having the cheaper one at all. I wouldn't be able to live without being able to put Pretentious Asshole as my race.


There are two secrets to success. The second one is to never reveal all your secrets.
 
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CavemanJoe
 Saturday, July 20 2013 @ 04:18 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Matthew

I think there might be a few quests with "he" and "she" that could probably be pretty easily rewritten around that.



All right, I'll bite. Consider a quest where you overhear another character talking about you:
"What do you think of that %s, then? I heard she's kind of a badass."
Rewrite that to be gender neutral, in a way that doesn't sound stilted and awkward.
We still need some pronouns, and "They" requires a hell of a lot more than a simple text replacement, often triggering problems later in the sentence:
"%s really badass, isn't %s?"
"She's really badass, isn't she?"
"He's really badass, isn't he?"
"They're really badass, isn't they?"


Quote by: Matthew
If someone really cares about "MY MALE CHARACTER WAS FORCED TO KISS A DUDE THIS OFFENDS MY DEEPLY HELD PERSONAL BELIEFS" I'm not sure we want them around anyway.


Uh, yeah, no. Your heterosexual male character being kissed by a dude, that's one thing - your heterosexual male character leaping away from your control in order to kiss a dude is... well, that's the game engine writing fanfiction about your character. Having a problem with that is entirely understandable.

Quote by: MatthewRelated: get rid of custom races.[/p]


No it isn't. Let's keep this thread on-topic.


 
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Matthew
 Saturday, July 20 2013 @ 09:52 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

All right, I'll bite. Consider a quest where you overhear another character talking about you:
"What do you think of that %s, then? I heard she's kind of a badass."
Rewrite that to be gender neutral, in a way that doesn't sound stilted and awkward.



"What do you think of that %s, then? They're pretty badass, right?"

Sentence structure might not stay the same, but it conveys the same idea. That's why I said "rewritten" and not, say, "find/replace".

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Uh, yeah, no. Your heterosexual male character being kissed by a dude, that's one thing - your heterosexual male character leaping away from your control in order to kiss a dude is... well, that's the game engine writing fanfiction about your character. Having a problem with that is entirely understandable.



It's a writing game. I can think of a million ways to write why my heterosexual male character might kiss a dude, he'd still be straight, and why it would be funny. Maybe I'm just not as flappable as some people.

And fair enough, I just re-had the thought because I started talking about races and commentaries in the mouseover.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Sunday, July 21 2013 @ 05:23 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Matthew

Quote by: CavemanJoe

All right, I'll bite. Consider a quest where you overhear another character talking about you:
"What do you think of that %s, then? I heard she's kind of a badass."
Rewrite that to be gender neutral, in a way that doesn't sound stilted and awkward.



"What do you think of that %s, then? They're pretty badass, right?"

Sentence structure might not stay the same, but it conveys the same idea. That's why I said "rewritten" and not, say, "find/replace".


While I don't know how the English language will evole in the future, and I do support the use of "they" as a gender-neutral third-person singular pronoun, using "they" when you know someone's gender seems a bit weird. I'd suggest writing:

"What do you think of that %s? Kind of a badass, I hear."

But your point stands, in that it's still pretty easy to write, and English gives you wiggle room because we speakers of English are occasionally lazy and wish to speak in vague manners. In a pinch, one can always go the "burly detective" route and write "What do you think of %s? I heard that that cowardly babushka is actually turning out to be quite the badass."*

Furthermore, CMJ, do you have a plan for some future quest revolving around eavesdropping? Because, as it stands, you use the pronoun "you" most of the time when referring to the player, so pronouns involving the gender of the player are kind of small potatoes.


Quote by: CavemanJoe

Uh, yeah, no. Your heterosexual male character being kissed by a dude, that's one thing - your heterosexual male character leaping away from your control in order to kiss a dude is... well, that's the game engine writing fanfiction about your character. Having a problem with that is entirely understandable.



It's a writing game. I can think of a million ways to write why my heterosexual male character might kiss a dude, he'd still be straight, and why it would be funny. Maybe I'm just not as flappable as some people.

Just to be clear here, are we talking about the Kissing Booth, which involves player choice, or something else?

*I think some people might just write one "that", instead of "that that". I'm not too clear on the subject, might be a regional thing. My example also assumes the player has made the choice of a cowardly babushka at some point. Feel free to substitute in "courageous babushka" when appropriate.


 
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Clueless
 Thursday, July 25 2013 @ 07:41 AM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Matthew

I think there might be a few quests with "he" and "she" that could probably be pretty easily rewritten around that.



All right, I'll bite. Consider a quest where you overhear another character talking about you:
"What do you think of that %s, then? I heard she's kind of a badass."
Rewrite that to be gender neutral, in a way that doesn't sound stilted and awkward.
We still need some pronouns, and "They" requires a hell of a lot more than a simple text replacement, often triggering problems later in the sentence:
"%s really badass, isn't %s?"
"She's really badass, isn't she?"
"He's really badass, isn't he?"
"They're really badass, isn't they?"



How about, instead of % being defined by the game, it is defined by the player? Keep the Island character creation the same I'd say (or in the same pattern roughly), and have each pronoun be alterable via preferences. As in they can put in whatever they want and that value is used whenever it comes up in game text. One for the third person personal pronoun (he/she), and one for his/her.. And another for his/her third person possessive.. Or whatever you'd call it. It is hers being my example there. Some would just have his for both fields. Of course in the last example CMJ has above choosing They would still be awkward with my system.. However I haven't really seen anyone use they when another pronoun is available. Typically when it is used it is to keep themselves ambiguous, but in the case of game text this would be a bit useless as only NPCs would 'know'. I could fill out my preferences with Sie and Shi and Hir and Eir and Xir and however many other neutral pronouns there are, and they should all end up used properly so long as a sufficient variety of variables replace the spots for pronouns in the text and are clearly identified with examples for the player to input their own set of. It should only take a few user defined variables as long as I'm thinking this through correctly. It would also take a bit more effort than a find/replace script, but I don't think it would take a ridiculous amount of time.

Sorry if something like this has been suggested, I just popped in because this thread has been around forever and only really looked over the last two pages.




And for the sake of it I agree with Matthew on the note of people doing ridiculous things at DK0. However taking away custom races won't do anything to change that. A person can just as easily hide their race and type their own into their rollover or bio. And shitty RPers will be shitty RPers no matter what they RP as. We have to try and guide them to be better RPers, not to just adhere to canon.


 
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Ozme
 Thursday, June 11 2015 @ 06:22 PM UTC  
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I remember on old MOOs, there was often a list of predefined genders including the usual suspects, the not so usual suspects, and then silly things like "otaku" and "hippie". On some of them that encourage player building/coding, you could define a custom gender by setting variable values - the name of the gender, pronouns in each necessary case, what a person of that gender should be referred to if not by the gender name (c.f. "a woman" vs "a female"). Instead of hardcoding in the pronouns and gendered references, use the variables. This has obviously already been partially done in II - the NPCs refer to my character as "lass" or "lady". The question is, is whatever you're using to store the gender choice able to be changed after character creation without messing up other code? It would really need to, or else it would be impossible to present this choice at signup and not alienate people with a huge form.


 
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Noka
 Friday, December 04 2015 @ 09:52 PM UTC  
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Just peered over here, so let me just suggest an implementation method:

Create either a nested array dictionary or a basic set of arrays (depending on how impenetrable and hardcoded you want this)

Each array contains the pronouns and verbs associated with that; for example in reference to yours, Male : [He, He's, is]; Female : [She, She's, is]; Neutral : [They, They're, are]
Codewise, let's say this is [%g, %s, %v]


Then, for CMJ's example,

"%s really badass, isn't %s?"
"She's really badass, isn't she?"
"He's really badass, isn't he?"
"They're really badass, isn't they?"


Would be converted to:
"%s really badass, %vn't %g?"
"She's really badass, isn't she?"
"He's really badass, isn't he?"
"They're really badass, aren't they?"


This is really just for that, though. It wouldn't work if the game stayed very present tense, since in present tense the word 'They' cannot play right with all the nice verbs who hang with 'He' and 'She'. She looks, They look, etc. The only way that'd be possible is if you added in a function for adding s (look -> looks) or es (watch ->watches) or literally changing the word's ending entirely (party -> parties) to a word if their gender is x or y, but not z. Which is POSSIBLE, it just sounds messy and/or overcomplicated. And only takes one verb that has a completely different spelling for singular present tense and plural present tense to ruin your day.


 
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Noka
 Saturday, December 05 2015 @ 12:45 PM UTC  
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Huh, is editing only for a certain time frame?
Ah, whatever.

Was chiming in again because I had a better execution that I mentioned in the post itself: Just create an array that defines a gender, the pronouns (he/his/him, etc), and then foist the verb tensing off on a function. Unsure about program efficiency since I know very little of PHP.

PHP Formatted Code
function pluralCheck($word, $key) {
 if ($key == "single") {
  return $word; // Assuming words are naturally written in singular present tense, this makes sure the processor doesn't waste time.
 }
 switch ($word) { // Use this for unique cases, such as "is", "catch", "drink", etc.
  case "is":
   return "are";
   break;
 } //  There's apparently like 400 of these though, so... it might be more efficient to make a dictionary for those...
 // Problem being that I don't think PHP has an inbuilt dictionary structure, so that'd need to be custom-built (and might end up taking up unnecessary space).
 
 $wordend = substr($word, -1);
 $wordstart = substr($word, 0, -1);

 // and then you insert another switch here that hunts over the $wordend
 // basically, it figures out how the verb converts from its last character(s) and then converts it using $wordstart
 // only issue that kept me from actually WRITING it is that i cannot find the exact grammar rules
 // and it makes me sad every time...
 // but i hope it explains itself
}


The good thing is that you won't ever have a complex situation where this fails, because it'll always apply to the main character. (So, for example, places where it would be complicated to execute, such as the two-word verb tenses.)

The bad thing is that even if you switch to past tense to try and eliminate the need for this, it'll still pop up in spoken text unless you change everything to neutral tenses.

(To be honest, though, I would appreciate something like this for nouns, too - if only because I am mildly tired of being called a "goddess" when I enjoy a nice night with some male midget whores so I can try and get some charm.)


 
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Sammi
 Thursday, December 17 2015 @ 04:10 PM UTC  
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Two non-programming issues that need to be resolved:
1) how many (and what) genders are to be implemented,
2) where will these genders be applied.

The "natural" answer to point 1 would be 4: Neuter, Male, Female, Multisex. This can be noted using two 1-bit flags (several different ways).
In practice there are others but terms seldom appear in non-technical language. These include the three sexes in social insects and the six (I think) conjugate lines in Paramecium. I doubt there is any need to consider these cases.

Possible applications include display information (Mouseover, Bio), RPing (up to the players assisted by display), Places testing (it has been noted that a test for Male is no longer the same as a test for Not Female), and NPC interactions and talk (this is what most discussion has focused on).


 
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CavemanJoe
 Friday, December 18 2015 @ 02:29 AM UTC  
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Nah, we're not going with four options. If we go with four options, we could just as easily go with many many more, and the game really doesn't need that much information about the character in order to display things correctly; it just needs to know "He, She, or They?"


 
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