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K.K. Victoria
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 10:40 AM UTC (Read 4752 times)  
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CMJ, I understand the need to reduce the server load, and it makes sense to cut it down here. However, I think you shouldn't do the entire island at the same time. The biggest place of chat clutter is the Common Ground, which has anywhere from 300-400 pages at a time. This compared to the thirteen pages in AceHigh? Is Acehigh really causing server load?

Why not just lower the Common Ground limit?

The reason that I say this is because the Common Ground is an easily accessible area, and it'll be very easy to check up on it if you care to keep track, since it is available in every outpost.

However, to get the full benefit of other outposts, you need to actually travel there, which can be a full day trip for some of the newer players who haven't had the opportunity to practice traveling around.


--So how about it CMJ? Can we just try it with just the Common Grounds limited? Instead of the entire island?


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Paul Lo
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 12:21 PM UTC  
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I second the idea

Really, The Common Grounds' chat takes more place than all the cities and World chat united, and still much more!
By these times, it's almost always the same people roaming and acting there; they know in what they are, so no need for them to go a hundred pages earlier to know what they're talking about right now.

I understand that many need to look at previous comments for a good understanding, but 358 pages? It's not series of commentary, it's a fragmented novel!
Mince it down!


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CavemanJoe
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 02:58 PM UTC  
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There isn't a core function to vary the expiration length on a per-chatspace basis.


 
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Zekiel
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 03:44 PM UTC  
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I realize this would be a rather drastic change, but why don't we change the chat areas to real-time instead of refresh-based? Is it too code-heavy? Too complicated to keep track of a player's location and to log him in and out of chatboxes as he goes? Or are there specific benefits to this system I haven't found out about yet? There'd be a lot of different rooms for the world-map, but surely something clever can be thought of to make that more efficient.


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CavemanJoe
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 04:07 PM UTC  
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We've been using AJAX chat on and off for a while now - it is quite server-intensive, and each time I monkey about with the commentary system (adding commentary icons, adding /special support, adding page numbers) the AJAX module has to be changed too. The whole thing honestly needs rewriting so that it doesn't affect how the commentary is displayed before it can be reactivated (and this is probably something to do once we have our new server).


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 04:39 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

There isn't a core function to vary the expiration length on a per-chatspace basis.



I don't entirely understand what this means, or how to correct it, or even if it is possible to correct it,

Dan, please understand, It's very important that we have more than two days saved up. I'd rather have a slower-than-dirt server than miss out on important plotlines or anything.

--I'll be frank. I don't care what happens in the Common Grounds most of the time. There is far too much going on in there to keep track, so I've given up trying. However, I do care quite a lot about what happens in the outposts. I'm pretty good about signing in every day, checking every outpost and all that. I even keep eyes on the Grounds for a few hours just to watch, for whatever reason. Two days is too short.

If it's possible, in my book, it is worth the work.

Hell, this is one of those few things that I'd even be willing to help with, if I could.
(For whatever that's worth.)


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Jon Bishop
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 07:39 PM UTC  
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Agreed that two days is two short. I care more about the game for the role playing (in fact, would not play if it wasn't for the role-playing), and don't like the thought at all that the comments are being sacrificed to make the "game" aspect of the island run better.

Especially with the change from Season 1 to Season 2, role playing got butchered enough as it is. Now that requisition is harder to come across, it's really tough to sacrifice 50+ requisition at the higher levels for the comms tent. No dwellings heavily cuts the role-playing, too.(though I know it's being worked on). No travel agents makes it too difficult to get from one town to the next to keep up with stories, as one shots are quite expensive. Traveling from one outpost to another isn't too hard, but you still can't manage to check every outpost in one days stamina. Granted the ability to chat in every spot on the map was a step in the right direction.

The common grounds is ultimately the root of the problem. Noone is going to scan back through those 300 pages. Completely not fair that the comments in AceHigh and Pleasantville, that have things I will actually read through, have to suffer because of the massive spamming of comments in the grounds.


 
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Cath
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 08:15 PM UTC  
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Could you just set a page limit rather than a expiration date?

Say, 25 pages?


 
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Zekiel
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 08:16 PM UTC  
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You hook into roleplay that happened over 2 days ago? Seriously? I tend not to meddle with stuff that started over 2 hours ago unless there's a fitting way to blend into it. Knowing what exactly happened the past 2 days is rarely, if ever, prerequisite to this blending. If you don't know stuff OOCly, then your character can impossibly know ICly, so to sate your curiosity you'll have to find out how the RP you drop yourself into started through IC means rather than reading its logs OOCly, if you ask me...

Don't get me wrong - if people need it, and if there's ways to keep the needy supplied, by all means, let 'm have it. I can't imagine why people need it, though...


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K.K. Victoria
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 08:24 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Zekiel

You hook into roleplay that happened over 2 days ago?



Not at all. That'd be bad form! You don't yell at someone who stole your hotdog two days after it happened! Likewise, you don't call the police two days after they rob your neighbors!

It's not about being around to take a part in the goings on! It's about witnessing it!

What's the point of writing if there's no audience? (Well, for the fun of creation, but beyond that...)

I like to know what's going on! If someone in my clan is writing a story, then I as a player would like to see it, how it was meant to be seen, and not in a distraction that was simply copy-pasted into the box, or placed on the Enquirer.

I'm not going to inject myself into it, no. I know much better than that. I like to read, so I want the opportunity to.


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Jon Bishop
 Friday, September 25 2009 @ 08:24 PM UTC  
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Yes, I do hook into roleplaying that happened over 2 days ago. Half the fun is seeing what stories other people are doing, it doesn't matter if my character is involved or not.


 
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Pinche Cabron
 Saturday, September 26 2009 @ 12:15 AM UTC  
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I like to know what's going on! If someone in my clan is writing a story, then I as a player would like to see it, how it was meant to be seen, and not in a distraction that was simply copy-pasted into the box, or placed on the Enquirer.

I'm not going to inject myself into it, no. I know much better than that. I like to read, so I want the opportunity to. [/p]


Im totally with you and Jon on this one. And even if it's not possible there needs to be a way to archive all the back logs and make them accessible. I don't see how this would be server intensive if it was read only. Hell, it could even be searchable and you wouldn't need to be logged in.

What would it take to implement either a) clearing a chatspace based on the number of messages instead of days, or b) create an accessible archive?

I came for the game, but I'm staying for the RP (and the game, too).

The thing about CG is that while there is a lot of fun going on there, and while important plot points occur there, there is a huge amount of what can only be described as wanking. Now, I love wanking as much as the next guy, but when it's a huge amount of wankage being created by a small handful of wankers, that's a problem. And it's not a problem for which other people should suffer. Maybe this is a Player problem that a simple technological fix won't really solve, at least not without hurting the innocent. Please consider a Player fix rather than a technological one. I hope this is being clear enough.


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Saturday, September 26 2009 @ 12:55 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Pinche+Cabron




The thing about CG is that while there is a lot of fun going on there, and while important plot points occur there, there is a huge amount of what can only be described as wanking. Now, I love wanking as much as the next guy, but when it's a huge amount of wankage being created by a small handful of wankers, that's a problem. And it's not a problem for which other people should suffer. Maybe this is a Player problem that a simple technological fix won't really solve, at least not without hurting the innocent. Please consider a Player fix rather than a technological one. I hope this is being clear enough.



Mate, this sums it all up so much better than I ever could in so few words.


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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Saturday, September 26 2009 @ 01:10 AM UTC  


I'm with everyone for finding a way to save more commentary. I really like the idea of saving backlogs somewhere else on the server; I'm assuming that commentary is saved in specific tables of the great big II database, but I don't really know what your setup is. Could you set up another table and put it in the background of the coding so that the server doesn't try to pull it up with every page, and then have comments moved from the "town square" table to the "background" table after every 25 pages? That might be worded kinda bad.

Let's look at it this way. Each comment is its own cell in the "town square" table. The table contains all of the comments, and controls how many show up on each page and which ones show up where, blah blah blah. You could set a global page limit to 25, for example, but since the comments are treated individually (the one at the top of the page moves to the former page every time a new comment is added), then after x number of comments (however many make up 25 pages), each new comment is bumped out of the "town square" table and into a backup table. The backup table will be a background function so that the coding doesn't try to pull it up on every page, and "expired" comments won't be extra bytes waiting to load.

That shouldn't be much of a server strain because it would be accessed less frequently than the main chatspace. And I ABSOLUTELY understand that coding up a "commentary archive" with any decent usability would be difficult and time consuming, but if the two problems we're looking at now are 1) we don't want to lose all of our roleplaying past two days and 2) all this commentary makes loading really slow, then maybe setting up an archive table and putting the interface part on the coding backburner would be a decent stopgap. I'm imagining this working kind of like .class and .title tags. Some stay in the loading queue and some stay out of the way until they're called.

Of course, I don't know how the database is set up, so it might not be possible to do something like that without serious rewiring. And I don't have very much experience with databases or high-traffic servers. But I just wanted to give some input on the situation.

EDIT: Obviously the bumping from table to table in the first place would take up server resources. I shouldn't leave holes like that.
Instead of bumping each comment directly, could they be "switched off" display-wise and set in a background area of the "town square" table, so that they're not being loaded, but they're still there? And then every two days, the server does one BIG bump to shift all of the "switched off" comments to the backup table?

EDIT AGAIN: Don't listen to me, this is getting kind of roundabout when the solution at the heart of my ramblings should be a lot more straightforward. I'm thinking aloud.


 
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Count Sessine
 Saturday, September 26 2009 @ 03:16 PM UTC  
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The game produces comment logs. Is there a way to display these logs somewhere in an archive? For those players who passionately need to read the stories being created by their fellow players, this would, I think, more than compensate for a two-day expiration limit in the comments.

The Common Ground could perhaps be omitted. That would certainly reduce the volume enormously.


 
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Jon Bishop
 Saturday, September 26 2009 @ 05:49 PM UTC  
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Well, the thing about archiving...the way it is now, how it's posted in the wiki, it just doesn't seem the same. I know the same exact text is there, but it's like something is lost in translation when you aren't reading it on the island itself. I don't think omitting the common grounds would help; the people that use it would just crowd up in a specific outpost instead.

I wish I could give suggestions...but I have no idea how the coding or server even work. Escemfer's idea seems interesting, and perhaps quite effective, if possible to code.


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Saturday, September 26 2009 @ 08:49 PM UTC  
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I feel the same reserves about archiving.

Closest description I can get to the feeling would be like this:

Suppose a parade goes through town on Sunday. Instead of going to the parade you go off to do... Whatever. Fly fishing, doesn't matter.

Monday, the paper comes around, so you pick it up and read on the cover page about what had happened on Sunday's parade. You say, "Oh, well, that's nice. Those old men with their little car shenanigans sound rare funny..."

Or you turn on the news and watch the footage of the parade.

Anyone who has done this knows what I mean. It's not the same. It changes it from 'Happening/Happened' to 'Report about it happening.'

It just doesn't sit well with me.


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Count Sessine
 Saturday, September 26 2009 @ 09:23 PM UTC  
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I know what you mean, Jon. For one thing, quite often, important story-information has been coded into the colours. (Skidge does this a lot.) That all gets stripped in a wiki transcript. It would be wonderful if the archives could be displayed in Island comment format.

But... Island format might not be technically easy. Having at least the words available would be far better than nothing.

Edit: And, KK, you've got a good point too. Perhaps my view is skewed because I'm one of those who desperately tries (and often fails!) to capture archives of important scenes on my own computer, using copy and paste. There's no way I could capture everything; copying from the Island is extremely time-consuming, especially with the recent changes to navigation that can have you missing a key line because somebody posted more comments in the outpost while you were trying to take a copy.

Sometimes I don't realize a certain scene was significant enough that I needed a copy, damnit! ...until it's too late. Nothing to do then but mourn.

For me, an archive would be HEAVEN.

...an archive in Island format? BETTER THAN HEAVEN!


 
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Pinche Cabron
 Saturday, September 26 2009 @ 11:34 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Jon+Bishop I don't think omitting the common grounds would help; the people that use it would just crowd up in a specific outpost instead.


Actually, I don't think so. I don't think they use the CG as much more than a white board, and wouldn't notice or care if it got erased every few days (to use a charitable analogy; a less charitable analogy might be too commodious). The attraction to the common ground is that it is common to all the outposts. I don't see those who only want to engage in banter taking the trouble to all assemble in one outpost just to preserve their comments. And if they did? So what. We could certainly cede one outpost to silly bullshit (and I speak as an authority on silly bullshit). Call it the Leper Colony. (Sudden thought: Are outposts modular? Could a Leper Colony outpost be added?)


 
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K.K. Victoria
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 12:32 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine



For me, an archive would be HEAVEN.

...an archive in Island format? BETTER THAN HEAVEN!



Agree, wholly.

My agreeing is broken if it is at the cost of a 2-day erasing.


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