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Jon Bishop
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 01:44 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Pinche+Cabron

Quote by: Jon+Bishop I don't think omitting the common grounds would help; the people that use it would just crowd up in a specific outpost instead.


Actually, I don't think so. I don't think they use the CG as much more than a white board, and wouldn't notice or care if it got erased every few days (to use a charitable analogy; a less charitable analogy might be too commodious). The attraction to the common ground is that it is common to all the outposts. I don't see those who only want to engage in banter taking the trouble to all assemble in one outpost just to preserve their comments. And if they did? So what. We could certainly cede one outpost to silly bullshit (and I speak as an authority on silly bullshit). Call it the Leper Colony. (Sudden thought: Are outposts modular? Could a Leper Colony outpost be added?)



I was thinking "omit" meant "get rid of completely" when I typed that up. But yes, I agree that not many at all would care if the common ground comments were wiped out every 2 days. In fact, the pages in the common ground get filled so quickly, that they could probably we wiped out every hour and there would still be more pages there than in any outpost.


 
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Pinche Cabron
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 02:13 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Jon+Bishop

Quote by: Pinche+Cabron

Quote by: Jon+Bishop I don't think omitting the common grounds would help; the people that use it would just crowd up in a specific outpost instead.


Actually, I don't think so. I don't think they use the CG as much more than a white board, and wouldn't notice or care if it got erased every few days (to use a charitable analogy; a less charitable analogy might be too commodious). The attraction to the common ground is that it is common to all the outposts. I don't see those who only want to engage in banter taking the trouble to all assemble in one outpost just to preserve their comments. And if they did? So what. We could certainly cede one outpost to silly bullshit (and I speak as an authority on silly bullshit). Call it the Leper Colony. (Sudden thought: Are outposts modular? Could a Leper Colony outpost be added?)



I was thinking "omit" meant "get rid of completely" when I typed that up. But yes, I agree that not many at all would care if the common ground comments were wiped out every 2 days. In fact, the pages in the common ground get filled so quickly, that they could probably we wiped out every hour and there would still be more pages there than in any outpost.



It's too bad we can't recycle those pages as toilet paper and then sell them at a diarrhea convention. We'd make buttloads of money.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 02:22 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

The game produces comment logs. Is there a way to display these logs somewhere in an archive? For those players who passionately need to read the stories being created by their fellow players, this would, I think, more than compensate for a two-day expiration limit in the comments.



I don't understand this at all. When you make a comment, an entry is inserted in the commentary table - when a comment expires, that entry is removed. That's all.

I might up the limit to, say, four days - but we really can't afford much more overhead on this server. Meanwhile, if you want to preserve formatting for the Wiki, copy and paste the source code for now and I'll try to whip up something to either convert it for Wiki use or simply allow some HTML tags in the Wiki.


 
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Jon Bishop
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 08:51 PM UTC  
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Alright, I did a count.

420 pages in the common ground.

1/2 a page in the Prancing Spiderkitty.

Less than 1 page in the Hunter's Lodge

8 pages in AceHigh

7 pages in CC404

87 pages in Kittania

6 pages in New Pittsburgh

24 pages in NewHome

34 pages in Pleasantville

18 pages in Improbable Central

5 pages in Squat Hole

79 pages in the Failboat.


That's 260 pages not in the common ground, and 420 pages in the common ground. The common ground has nearly DOUBLE the rest of the entire island. That same exact people are using the grounds all of the time, It's not fair that everyone commenting in those 252 other pages have to lose because of it. Is there really no other way to fix it?


 
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CavemanJoe
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 09:34 PM UTC  
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I could reinstate the bit of code that actually enforces the "don't take up half the chatspace to yourself" rather than just saying so.


 
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Beeker
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 09:43 PM UTC  
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Oh, dear! Well, I suppose you could... I do run into that wall rather often in two-person conversations, though. And occasionally three-person conversations.

I do see that there's an issue, of course.


 
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Jon Bishop
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 10:18 PM UTC  
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I don't think setting the limit on how much an individual can comment per page will affect much, it might make the difference of only a couple pages. Is it not possible to limit how many pages exist in a chatspace? Say, a 30 page limit, and the earliest comments get deleted as new ones show up? It would at least build some consistency, as the server can't suddenly have a burst of new comments bogging everything down. And, that way the outposts aren't put at a disadvantage thanks to so many comments in the common ground.

Or is the only way if the comments are all deleted after a certain age?


 
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XaNe
 Sunday, September 27 2009 @ 10:20 PM UTC  
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Well, I actually agree with the idea of extending it to four days. However, I feel like the coding of people only having so many comments makes it difficult for anything less than four people to talk. Or, in cases like mine, I go around from time to time telling stories. These take up several more comments than the limit, meaning it would be almost impossible for me to do them if that coding was strictly enforced. However, I understand the need to lighten the load on the servers and I say do what you have to do. I'll just start keeping transcripts more actively.

Also, I agree the commons has a lot of idle conversation, and other things nobody really reads, so perhaps a page limit would be best, as previously proposed...although that creates other problems...ah well, you can't win them all.


Some people see the glass as half full, some people see it as half empty, I just spit in the cup until it isn't a problem anymore.
 
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Hairy Mary
 Tuesday, October 13 2009 @ 02:21 AM UTC  
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Hi folks.
I haven't been following what's happening as I haven't really been on the island for a while, due to sofa surfing, and problematic internet access. Frown
Sorry if this is a misunderstanding on my part.

This is part of a larger thing that is going on. The island social structure is changing, it's not a village anymore, where evryone knows what everyone else is doing, it's now the size of a small town. CG gets 210 pages a day. It takes me about 2-3 min to read a page, (just read, not properly take in and savour). This means, that even if I had instant access to all chat pages I'm likely to take 11 hours to keep up with what's going on, everyday. That's not going to happen. I don't know where I'm going with this, other than to point out that as more and more people join the island, there's going to be more and more chat, and more and more server load

People like the CG because it's easier to get to from everywhere, as has been mentioned. Is the common ground just going to be abandoned by 'serious players' and let loose to wankage?
Perhaps a link to the veterans club from every outpost on the island might be useful? Or some other 'universal access' place? Can't see that this is going to help server load though..

OK. Didn't have much worth saying, said it anyway. But the social structure is inevitably going to change with more and more people, and we ought to be aware of that.


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, October 13 2009 @ 08:54 AM UTC  
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This is an important insight, HM, something we all should think about a bit. Or anyway, I know I'm going to be mulling this for a while.

Server load, yes. But also -- small towns do work differently from villages.


 
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NesQuarX
 Tuesday, October 13 2009 @ 11:07 AM UTC  
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I often find myself going back days in chatlogs (even in CG) just to check out what happened actually... (I personally just pull out the HTML archive and browse or keyword-search through it to get to my desired story... wonder why that doesn't exist in the server itself)

Bumping of comments into a seperate archive (heck you may even charge req to access it to reduce the frequency of queries in the archive.) every 24 hours seems like a decent idea, server processing-load-wise (not space-wise). I've always missed a proper searchable archive in the chats.

Actually the algorithm should archive a chunk after a certain number of chatpages are generated or a certain amount of time passes. I don't know Dan if you're tied down by a framework but if it's raw code then I believe it's quite possible.


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K.K. Victoria
 Tuesday, October 13 2009 @ 12:40 PM UTC  
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That is indeed an interesting point, Mary.

But unless you have a DK limit on entrance or something, then I'm not sure it would do more than be nothing more than a Common Ground clone.


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Hairy Mary
 Wednesday, October 14 2009 @ 12:55 AM UTC  
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I've thought a bit more about this.

I) CMJ. The more players there are, the more server load there's going to be. There may be more efficient ways of doing things, and other ingenious tricks to reduce server load, but there's got to be some sort of limit to that, and after that you have an 'average server load per player' which is going to be a fact of life. After that, you can only really change matters by doing things like reducing the time that comments hang around and the like. There will be an inevitable trade off, which is something that you're going to have to balance carefully.

II) The social dynamic is changing. What do roleplayers want? I think a lot of what needs to be done is in the hands of the roleplaying community rather than Dans hands. We need to look ahead a bit and debate this.

Of course the answer to 'What do roleplayers want?' depends on which roleplayer you're asking. Going from what has been written above, a lot of people want to arse about in the CG. Well then, surely its good to have a place where they can do that.
Do we want different areas with different moderator rules or something? With every square having its own chatspace, there's now a lot of room. If people want a given outpost, its possible to use the square underneath it instead. More experienced players know how to travel around a bit, and so can hang around Acehigh or New Pitt and there surrounding environs.
Do we want more places that are accessible from all over the island? In which case, entrances don't have to be outposts do they? Could they be hidden on squares within a couple of squares of each outpost? In which case only those in the know, or the really determined explorer, would be aware of them. This is starting to smell a bit exclusive to me, but that sort of exclusivity seems to be implicit as desirable in some of the comments made.

In a similar vein, do we want some places that have entry limited by DK level?

One thing that we're not going to be able to have is roleplaying that can happen all round the island wherever we want, and that other people can keep track off.

One of the consequences of more players is that its going to be easier for rookies to be 'lost'. One of the great features of the island is the way that new players are made welcome and mentored. We could see when someone was new, and someone took them under their wing and looked after them. We're facing a situation where people just aren't going to be noticed. I know that there is a list of willing 'mentors' to ask for help in the wiki, and that's a great idea. I think it would be a good idea to keep an eye on that though to see how it's going. Dan, would it be possible to have a list of people who've made a comment or two (or more) but haven't had any distractions? If it is, do people think it would be useful to have such a gadget tucked away somewhere?

The island is changing with size of player base. If we're bright about it then we can maximise advantages, and minimise disadvantages. This is more likely to happen if, as players, we're a bit proactive, and a bit flexible in our behaviour.


 
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Jon Bishop
 Wednesday, October 14 2009 @ 02:16 AM UTC  
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HM, you certainly do bring up some interesting ideas. I think a minor problem with your theory there, though, is it tends to assume that new players are bad at role playing, and old players are good at role playing. Which, is not true.

If none of the so called "veteran" role players are posting in the open in the outposts, new players won't ever come across them, and won't ever get a taste of the more "veteran" type of role-playing. Then, no new players would understand that aspect of role playing. Granted it's completely up to the players if they use that "exclusivity". I guess you're right, too, that with such a larger population, it does need to be done a little differently now.

When I was a new player, it was stumbling upon the stories and comments of some of the older players that made me interested in the game, and if every last one of those comments were "hidden" somewhere, I couldn't have seen them, and would have just seen comments from others who had just as little idea of what they were doing as I did at the time.

I agree that the mentor thing is great, but, If I was a new player, and I had to contact someone who has played longer than me to set up any story or event whatsoever, I might be a little turned away from the game, just because it seems complicated.

Nevertheless, very nice ideas, HM. Could be rather productive if done properly.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, October 16 2009 @ 12:49 AM UTC  
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Jon. You're right, there's little or no correlation between DKs and RP ability. Possibly for some people it takes a DK or two to get into the swing of things, but nothing after that.
Also, I'm not at all a fan of exclusivity myself, but if a there are a few people who do want that, then let them have it. Apart from anything else, it will cut down on cliquey behaviour in more common areas. Actually I'm not really convinced that there are many, if any, people who do want that, and I'm pretty sure that there will be enough people that aren't at all exclusive to provide plenty of example to rookies.
If people do want to be exclusive, then once homes become available, they'll be able to use them, although homes are not accessable from all over the island. Only the outpost in which they're built.

When I was talking about rookies being mentored, I wasn't trying to suggest that this would be a prerequisit for role playing. What I was trying to say was this. When I first started on the island, someone came up, said hello, and made me feel welcome. This really helped me, and probably contributed to me sticking around (amongst several other reasons, great game, amusing details etc.) I think that quite a few people experienced something similar, and would agree that this is a really good feature of the Island. I am also aware that a lot of people not only agree, but also keep up the good work by passing this on in turn to make new rookies feel welcome.
With so many people on the island, its now entirely possible to walk in to some of the more popular areas and see a dozen names that you've never heard of before. Some of these will be new rookies that it will be worth contacting. Some on the other hand will be old hands who will benefit less from this (although of course contacting such people is not a problem.) Some people won't be welcomed, simply because nobody realises that they're new in town. It seems to me that this will start happening more and more, if its not already. By the nature of things its an invisible problem, you don't notice people that you don't notice.
I don't really have anything more constructive to say. I just thought that these things might be worth thinking about.


 
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Aeridus
 Friday, October 16 2009 @ 04:39 PM UTC  
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So... why can't there be a page limit instead of a time limit? Say, 10-20 pages or so. That would be more than enough for all of the cities and would drastically reduce the amount of backlog in the Common Ground.


 
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Anonymous: Jon Bishop
 Saturday, October 17 2009 @ 02:32 AM UTC  


Quote by: Aeridus

So... why can't there be a page limit instead of a time limit? Say, 10-20 pages or so. That would be more than enough for all of the cities and would drastically reduce the amount of backlog in the Common Ground.



I'd personally like a little of both, honestly. Perhaps a 40-50 page limit, but still have the 7 day rule in effect.


 
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