Enquirer Home Page | Twitter | Back to Improbable Island

 Forum Index > Season Two > Feature Requests, Ideas and Feedback New Topic Post Reply
 Thread for discussing outpost invasions.
 |  Printable Version
Count Sessine
 Sunday, February 21 2010 @ 07:23 PM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 1402

The current status of breached outposts tells us something: the people who have up until now been keeping the outposts open are, in sufficient numbers to change the game balance... the same people who have been waiting for Dwellings since the beginning of the season. Given a choice between spending their day's precious stamina on keeping the monsters down (a neverending task) and working to build the home they've been dreaming of for months or helping their friends build theirs... tasks where they can actually see results and make progress... they're saying, "I'm so over this Onslaught."

There aren't enough people who love fighting monsters more than they love building. And even if some players rolled their eyes and chose once in a while to fight the monsters or reinforce walls, just because, well, someone has to do it, they'd find themselves fighting a no-win battle. (And what happens when IC starts going into perpetual breach and they can't get to Suzie's? If Onslaught was losing its shine before, it will be hated once that happens.)

There isn't enough stamina in the game to handle both.

In other words, the two features are interfering with each other. Something's gotta give to keep the game playable.

The monster generation rate was adjusted... mn, maybe about right for the game as it was without dwellings? It needs to be turned waaaayyy down for at least a while, not just for Dwellings, but whenever a cool new feature is introduced that gives people fascinating new things to do with Stamina.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Bakemaster
 Sunday, February 21 2010 @ 08:20 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 226

People would be far less likely to ignore the breached outposts IF any of the following were true:
- It's particularly difficult to rescue/restore a breached outpost
- Breach has long-term consequences that remain even after the walls go back up
- Attacks were less predictable, such that one could reasonably expect to fight off an attack and not have to defend that outpost for another week (so be able to return to doing what one was doing before in a reasonable amount of time/number of days)


Unofficial Improbable Island out-of-character chat is at irc.foonetic.net, channel #iisland - come on by!
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Count Sessine
 Sunday, February 21 2010 @ 09:02 PM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 08/16/08
Posts: 1402

Quote by: Bakemaster

People would be far less likely to ignore the breached outposts IF any of the following were true:
- It's particularly difficult to rescue/restore a breached outpost
- Breach has long-term consequences that remain even after the walls go back up
- Attacks were less predictable, such that one could reasonably expect to fight off an attack and not have to defend that outpost for another week (so be able to return to doing what one was doing before in a reasonable amount of time/number of days)

Do either of the first two in any serious way and we'd essentially be twisting people's arms, trying to force them to play the game differently from the way they'd actually enjoy playing it. Past a certain point they'd just say the hell with it and stop playing.

The point of this game is to be fun. We cannot coerce or threaten people with dire consequences and expect them to hang around. Carrots work -- sticks don't.

Now, if there were a reward for fighting valiantly to thin out the monsters around an outpost... but it'd have to be a huge reward to outweigh the value of a home, and that would run into other game balance issues. And besides, why would we want to prevent people from excitedly exploring a new stamina-costly feature? They're having FUN. They're becoming MORE COMMITTED to the game. This is a GOOD THING.

As for the third... don't you mean, more predictable?


 
Profile Email
Quote
Azhron
 Sunday, February 21 2010 @ 09:25 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 57

Quote by: Count+Sessine[pNow, if there were a reward for fighting valiantly to thin out the monsters around an outpost... [/p]


Why not give req payout for onslaught monsters? Maybe cigs, too? The lack of pay has always been my main complaint with onslaught.


 
Profile Email
Quote
SicPuess
 Sunday, February 21 2010 @ 09:41 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 327

Mayyybe the req payout could be increased if the threat level is high? I think that no stamina is required for hunting during a breach is kind of enough of a reward (it is, at least for me).

Mayyybe the monsters fought in the 3x3 square on the map with the outpost in the center could be counted against the invading monster count as well? Quest monsters, Tattoo Mutant, Magpie can appear in the breach?

Mayyybe the restoration from the FailBoat could dump you on the map square instead of the center of the battlefield in case of a breach? (Also, being able to at least roughly guess the status of the outpost from there.)

Definitely the intensity of the attacks needs to be toned down at the moment.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Zolotisty
 Sunday, February 21 2010 @ 09:46 PM UTC  
Forum Moderator
Moderator

Status: offline

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 570

Um, req and cig payouts seem to me to be good incentive to totally abandon non-essential Outposts -- that is, it would encourage players to keep certain Outposts in perpetual breach.


BARK BARK BARK.
 
Profile Email
Quote
Azhron
 Sunday, February 21 2010 @ 09:49 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 57

Quote by: Zolotisty

Um, req and cig payouts seem to me to be good incentive to totally abandon non-essential Outposts -- that is, it would encourage players to keep certain Outposts in perpetual breach.



Well, obviously don't make the payouts huge, but wouldn't it be all right if they were the same as in the jungle? (though I doubt the cameras would be there)


 
Profile Email
Quote
Mister Rawr
 Sunday, February 21 2010 @ 09:57 PM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 63

I'm actually against req payouts for breach critters. If the payouts were even close to what they are for normal Jungle encounters, people would get RICHRICHRICH during a breach. The low stamina use during one of these already allows people to get three, two or even one-day DKs significantly more regularly than was previously possible due to the comparatively high XP payout they earn in a breach. I don't know if it would be such a great idea to add Req into that mess.

Besides, a breach is supposed to be pandemonium, nobody has enough time to get healed... much less pick up Req (I would imagine).

That being said, with four outposts down (AceHigh, CC404, Squat Hole and New Pitts) and another back and forth between breaches (Central) the overall mood of most contestants I've spoken with recently appears to be what you might call quite apathetic towards the Onslaught. I've run Rawr through a few DKs over the past two days focusing entirely on the invasions and I'm pretty tired of it.

Perhaps the Onslaught module could use some toning down.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Hairless
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 12:11 AM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 32

Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: Bakemaster

People would be far less likely to ignore the breached outposts IF any of the following were true:
- It's particularly difficult to rescue/restore a breached outpost
- Breach has long-term consequences that remain even after the walls go back up
- Attacks were less predictable, such that one could reasonably expect to fight off an attack and not have to defend that outpost for another week (so be able to return to doing what one was doing before in a reasonable amount of time/number of days)

Do either of the first two in any serious way and we'd essentially be twisting people's arms, trying to force them to play the game differently from the way they'd actually enjoy playing it. Past a certain point they'd just say the hell with it and stop playing.

The point of this game is to be fun. We cannot coerce or threaten people with dire consequences and expect them to hang around. Carrots work -- sticks don't.

Now, if there were a reward for fighting valiantly to thin out the monsters around an outpost... but it'd have to be a huge reward to outweigh the value of a home, and that would run into other game balance issues. And besides, why would we want to prevent people from excitedly exploring a new stamina-costly feature? They're having FUN. They're becoming MORE COMMITTED to the game. This is a GOOD THING.

As for the third... don't you mean, more predictable?


Thanks, Sessine. You've got a good sense of how I'm feeling about how the Onslaught is affecting the game experience.
The constant attack level and frequent breaches are making me cranky and tired. The urgency doesn't jibe with the random breaks (Raven Inn, Grassy Field,etc.) that are (properly) built into the gameplay. It's exciting enough that I want to be able to choose to go find that Onslaught fight now and then, and do valiant battle - but I do not like the feel of life during wartime.
And it simply does not make sense to be building dwellings anywhere outside, or on top of, constantly attacked outposts.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Azhron
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 12:15 AM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 57

Another thing that might make Onslaught more attractive is if you had an indication of who you were fighting with. As it is, it feels like you are alone in the face of the hoarde, even when there are others fighting as well. It might boost morale some if there were a list off to the side telling who else was fighting nearby, or even if it was possible to team up against some of the bigger enemies; i.e. "Contestant Whatshisface is fighting a losing battle against The Giant Tatoo Mutant. Would you like to lend a hand?" This is probably implausible, but it would be nice.

It might also be helpful if, in the lulls in fighting, there was the option to take cover without leaving the outpost and access your inventory, to heal or equip more grenades before plunging into the next fight or going to reinforce. This is mainly because when you have left the outpost, you enter directly into a fight, rather than going to the walls after taking a break for healing.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Rosin
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 01:22 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 295

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

Another point. Rosin, I'm guessing that you were fairly early on in in your DK weren't you?
The beasties that you meet once the walls are breached are entirely random, they can be any level. If you're on level 10 in a DK, that means that a suicidal fight is level 12. Monsters level 13 through 15 are harder than suicidal. That's one in five. Maybe you can just about handle that, with grenades and whatnot. But lower levels? At level 5 over half your encounters will be harder than suicidal. And you've likely got less req, to use on either grenades, or, for that matter, healing. (You don't get any req for killing breach invaders.)

This means that (I reckon) anyone under level 10 shouldn't even think of hanging around in a breach, you'll just be fruitlessly wasted blood and another shocking example of the futility of war.



I was actually NOT early in my DK. I was in fact at level ten and ended up with 4k/24k experience needed to get to level 11. And I am a Joker. Hurray!

Sessine's right, too. People WERE keeping the outposts alive, but NOW they're building the dwellings they've been wanting (or are exploring something entirely new to them even in basic concept of player owned housing). Not many people like going to AceHigh normally anyway except roleplayers, and there are not many that go there regularly. This means that the roleplayers off building their new dwellings (who were the principle people keeping AceHigh alive as well) no longer spend precious stamina fighting monsters at all in the jungle. BIG PROBLEM.

And Bakemaster, it already IS particularly difficult to restore/rescue a breached outpost. It takes at least 5 players working at once to do such a thing, and EVEN THEN it's a risky venture. And if we made Onslaught any tougher right now, EVERY OUTPOST WOULD FALL because we're all off building instead of fighting and then goodness we'd loose a lot of people.



EDIT:
Alright, after about 120% stamina use, I boosted the walls in AceHigh to 20k about through a bit of fighting. This is still a ridiculously low number and I'm sure that it will be down again by the time I return from PV, but at least it's temporarily open. GUARDS SHOULD DO DAMAGE TO MONSTER HORDES AT LEAST, INSTEAD OF JUST BEING INDICATIVE OF WHEN WE'RE SCREWED OVER. Ahem.


A magpie's work is never done.
 
Profile Email
Quote
ImNewHere
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 03:02 AM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 15

I was at Ace High earlier and decided to help with the breach, and to help reinforce the walls as I could. They were over 20 K by the time I left. I used a new day, went to Pleasantville, came back and they were breached again. Kinda frustrating there. I also worked on trying to get Cyber City 404 back again. I would fight a string of monsters, reinforce, have to fight again, and find that the work I did was gone, so I would reinforce again. The highest I got it was just shy of 1000 hp for the wall, and of course it was undone again. I blew through over 120 rounds trying before I gave up. I ran out of rounds on the plasma gun, went through all 11 grenades on the bandolier, and was down to doing high ripostes due to the force generator. I would have thought doing that would have at least allowed me to get the walls up for a little bit. Makes me simply want to haul rocks back to New Home and work on my house.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Hairless
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 03:34 AM UTC  
Forum Contestant
Contestant

Status: offline

Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 32

I think that where we are now is at the realization that CMJ has, quite unintentionally I think, presented us with the choice of (a) helping our friends to build beautiful dwellings that will last, and that we will be able to return to visit them in, or (b) helping anonymous, unhelpful and ungrateful villagers maintain outposts that will fall to ruin again as soon as we stop helping to maintain that outpost.
It's like a choice between marrying Emily/Seth and having to keep up that one-sided relationship until you just can't anymore, and marrying a real person. A real person who might actually love you back, making both of you stronger and happier.
I don't think that forcing players to make that choice was CMJ's intention.
I'm guessing he could use a little time to write some new code.
I'm going to back off and give the Admin and Mods some time to work on this, cool my frustrations and just be patient for a bit.
Because I LIKE this game, and the people who play it. I want to keep playing with those people. You people.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Bakemaster
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 03:57 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 226

Quote by: Rosin

And Bakemaster, it already IS particularly difficult to restore/rescue a breached outpost. It takes at least 5 players working at once to do such a thing, and EVEN THEN it's a risky venture. And if we made Onslaught any tougher right now, EVERY OUTPOST WOULD FALL because we're all off building instead of fighting and then goodness we'd loose a lot of people.


I think I have a very different concept of what makes a game difficult than a lot of people around here. Maybe it's because this genre is not known for difficulty, per se, so much as tasks that are time-consuming. And that's what I feel this is—time consuming rather than difficult. Just fight monsters until they go away. If you're having trouble, your rank is too high, your level too low, or your equipment too poor for this particular task. But the task itself has very clear parameters. If you don't prepare yourself for the task, you won't be able to perform the task; if you do prepare yourself, it's very doable.

My point was simply to suggest a few things that would change how people respond to onslaught. I never said any of them were silver bullets; in MMOs there is usually no such thing as a silver bullet fix.

And no, Sessine, I meant less predictable. Onslaught could be more predictable, but not a whole lot more. Monsters arrive every minute—whether or not there's randomization involved in the number, the result is going to be fairly normalized over the course of a game-day. So it's fair to say that threat level increases predictably. Threat level decreases when people fight in the outpost Jungle; over time, we've discovered where people habitually fight in outpost Jungles. We know the relative danger levels at different outposts; we know that New Pitts and 404 are the most likely to breach, and Pvill/Kitt the least likely. This hasn't really changed since a week after the module was released. We know that every outpost is perpetually under attack. There's no mystery in guessing where the enemy will "strike" next because there's no coordination to their attack; it doesn't really feel like we're fighting an enemy at all, so much as that we're managing an algorithm. And I think that's a big part of why people aren't having fun with it.


Unofficial Improbable Island out-of-character chat is at irc.foonetic.net, channel #iisland - come on by!
 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Hairy Mary
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 04:13 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 1083

What about, instead of getting req for fighting in a breach, you get some sort of credit with the hospital tent? Not unreasonable that they should pitch in and help the wounded who have been fighting to keep their homes and families in one piece, and that's essentially serverely limited req, it can only be used for one thing. Perhaps it could disappear the game day after a breach is repelled or something. Definitely if they DK. No idea how plausable this is from a coding point of view.

P.S. Rosin, sorry for misrepresenting you there. Now I'm better informed though, I'd say that your experiance only reinforces the point I was trying to make, most people aren't hard enough to even think about fighting in an onslaught.


 
Profile Email
Quote
Rosin
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 04:45 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 295

I've discovered just now that with Jokers, there is the possibility of an easy 2-person breach stop. Mostly for this reason, see my current Joker Improbability stats;

Attack 43+53.3
Defence 43+41.3


Stamina permitting, I could probably break apart an entire breach enough for someone else to do a damned good job of repairing pretty quick. This leaves me with the question, if Jokers can be such perfect breach busters with a good day, why don't those Jokers who get them go bust breaches?

Massive XP gain, if no req, and you possibly open up your own dojo as I'm hoping to right now.


A magpie's work is never done.
 
Profile Email
Quote
NotAgain
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 07:35 AM UTC  
Forum Contender
Contender

Status: offline

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 35

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

What about, instead of getting req for fighting in a breach, you get some sort of credit with the hospital tent? Not unreasonable that they should pitch in and help the wounded who have been fighting to keep their homes and families in one piece, and that's essentially serverely limited req, it can only be used for one thing.



That's an idea I'd happily endorse. Perhaps actually having a medic running through the outpost, performing first-aid in the front lines during the breach. Who naturally disappears after the breach is over, to return to the Hospital Tent.

ie. Have a menu of:

(H)ere comes another one!
(M)edic!

While fighting in defense of the town one could earn credits for use with this medic... much like favour with the Watcher.

I know that, when I'm fighting in a breach, by the time I get the chance to Run and use the Hospital Tent I'm often so bored and frustrated that instead I'll just head to another outpost. But if I could heal while still in the breach situation I'd stick it out for longer.


 
Profile Email
Quote
K.K. Victoria
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 12:44 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 12/17/08
Posts: 498

Quote by: NotAgain

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

What about, instead of getting req for fighting in a breach, you get some sort of credit with the hospital tent? Not unreasonable that they should pitch in and help the wounded who have been fighting to keep their homes and families in one piece, and that's essentially serverely limited req, it can only be used for one thing.



That's an idea I'd happily endorse. Perhaps actually having a medic running through the outpost, performing first-aid in the front lines during the breach. Who naturally disappears after the breach is over, to return to the Hospital Tent.

ie. Have a menu of:

(H)ere comes another one!
(M)edic!

While fighting in defense of the town one could earn credits for use with this medic... much like favour with the Watcher.

I know that, when I'm fighting in a breach, by the time I get the chance to Run and use the Hospital Tent I'm often so bored and frustrated that instead I'll just head to another outpost. But if I could heal while still in the breach situation I'd stick it out for longer.



I highly endorse that idea. Not only because it's really good, but anything that provides more of a battlefield image in my head is a big plus.

There are several awesome standard 'Things,' things like "Slow motion flying through the air while shooting something," "Running through a minefield with a dying man on your back during an artillery strike," and screaming "MEDIC!" While going down fighting. The image is totally worth it.


"You saved Pineapple!"
 
Profile Email
Quote
Jon Bishop
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 03:10 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
Improbable Badass

Status: offline

Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 143

A medic would be nice. I think a huge reason no one bothers to fight off an invasion is because death is pretty much inevitable.


 
Profile Email
Quote
CavemanJoe
 Monday, February 22 2010 @ 04:48 PM UTC  
Forum Admin
Admin

Status: offline

Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 2281

There are some awesome ideas in here, that I'd like to implement. Also the discussion has given me some ideas of my own, which I also plan to implement.

But right now, I'm just gonna turn the difficulty down several notches and fix the bugs in Dwellings.

(also worth noting is that Onslaught determines its monster spawn rate based partially on the number of players signed up - and I've been advertising a lot the past week. We've lots of Rookies who haven't left NewHome yet. That's a big contributing factor to how hard it is right now)


 
Profile Email Website
Quote
Content generated in: 1.74 seconds
New Topic Post Reply



 All times are UTC. The time is now 06:58 PM.

Normal Topic Normal Topic
Locked Topic Locked Topic
Sticky Topic Sticky Topic
New Post New Post
Sticky Topic W/ New Post Sticky Topic W/ New Post
Locked Topic W/ New Post Locked Topic W/ New Post
View Anonymous Posts 
Anonymous users can post 
Filtered HTML Allowed 
Censored Content