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Reverb
 Monday, April 26 2010 @ 11:12 PM UTC  
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Yes, but it did not take into account the providing of meterials. often, in joined projects, one person spends a sphere, a ciggie, and some one-shots on lumbering/stone-cutting their stamina into the neither regions, and deliver their cargo to a fresh mason/carpenter whom does the actual construction.

Not that i'd demand that factored; but it might be simpeler to just transfer this via the Improbable Board of Surveillance and Real Estate Management.

Or petitions for a transfer. It's not like we'll develop a booming market in land ownership, so it wouldn't realy be much added workload for CMJ.


"Censure acquits the Raven, but pursues the Dove." "So, that means i'm -always- innocent, right?"
 
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Count Sessine
 Monday, April 26 2010 @ 11:49 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

Is it possible to know how much any one person contributed in terms of decorating or building?

Before people get carried away trying to optimize the algorithm, here... I'm afraid the answer to this question is, "No, we don't have that level of detail."

It is in the interests of the game as a whole, it seems to me, to prevent the accumulation of un-owned dwellings, and to encourage active ownership. The more elaborate the dwelling, the more owning it becomes a responsibility rather than a privilege. If we make recipients pay in proportion to the size, the best places would be in the most danger of being lost because those who ought to be taking them over could not afford them.

1. In most cases, the current owner of a dwelling is the best one to decide who should take it over.

- If we allow voluntary transfers at any time without cost to the recipient (provided the building meets the minimum size standard), then that hands over most of the problem to human judgement, which is much more flexible and better able to handle special cases than any php algorithm could be. Clan halls could be transferred to a new clan leader as a matter of course; spouses could transfer their homes back and forth depending on who has the time to work on the new wing this week and who has exams or an insane deadline at work...

2. In the nature of things, though, there is always going to be turnover. If the owner does not transfer a building before the account disappears, that's when you need rules.

- If it is just a stake in the ground, delete it. Someone else can claim the land.

- If it has been built on... Yes, a spouse probably should inherit an orphaned dwelling automatically. If that player doesn't want it, well, they're the owner now. As long as it meets the minimum size, they can give it away same as the original owner could -- if they can find a taker, that is.

- The silent auction would be for properties that fall through all of these filters.

- And a property that's been up for sale and hasn't sold in three different auctions would be going, going... gone. Deleted because nobody wanted it. "Sniffle... nobody loves me..."

- Though, that brings up another point -- perhaps owners should be able to dump properties they no longer want into the auction system. No, they shouldn't get paid anything for it, because it wouldn't be possible to determine how much of the work that went into it was theirs, and besides, that would open up loopholes for exploitation. (So assume the town councils suddenly discover that the back taxes exactly equal -- what a curious coincidence! whatever the property brings at auction.)


 
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g_rock
 Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 12:16 AM UTC  
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Perhaps the ones that go unclaimed and are, for lack of a better word, demolished, the building materials, or a portion thereof, would remain on the site for filthy scavengers [read:GERM] to use? Maybe 50% of the logs and stone that went into the building would be left behind?


 
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Hairy Mary
 Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 08:53 AM UTC  
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One issue here is that buildings are only counted as orphaned when the owning account disappears. People with permanent accounts may still suddenly be faced with RL issues forcing them to leave the Island, even people who have put in a huge amount of time and effort, creating things in Improbable labs say. Life happens.

Being owned by a moribund account is effectively the same as not being owned at all, no one's looking after the building. Perhaps if an owner doesn't visit a dwelling in a month, or doesn't log on in a month then they get sent an email warning them of impending repossesion? Then they get a fortnight to do something?

In fact, if buildings are complete, then it doesn't really matter if anyone owns them or not. If the owner of Soup and Pants had to leave, then Soup and Pants would still be there exactly as it is now, and still fulfilling it's valuable role in the game. It's the half built and unused dwellings which are the potential problem.

Actually, this isn't true. Thinking again (I did that once in 2003), I suppose that ghosts would go unkicked out, and these would accumulate over time. Also in a property shared by a couple, the spouse might eventually get over their grief, remarry, and want to use the property, locking and unlocking rooms and so forth. Also, if someone left when a room was locked, then that room would stay locked for evermore.

Point: If a dwelling goes on the market, then automatically unlocking all areas would probably make sense. Afterall, you'd want to go and have a good look round a property if you were thinking of buying it.


 
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Genevieve
 Tuesday, April 27 2010 @ 09:26 AM UTC  
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I wholeheartedly agree that we should freely be able to transfer dwellings from person to person at any time. I know Jacques would be thrilled by this idea, since he's never around Port Foley and cant work on his own house, and I'd willingly start construction jobs for him and such, then give it back when he's got the time. I think that spouses should be able to do that without any sort of limiting factor. And Clan members, really.

The Will idea is also something I agree with completely. Human Judgement is definitely more effective than any algorithm.

Actually.. now that I think about it... I agree completely with Sessines little list of instances. Yep. If the building isn't inherited or given out it should be auctioned.


I also agree with Hairy Mary, if someone has a permanent account and just doesnt get on for ages (a month is how long a non-permanent account has to be gone to be deleted, right? how about that long?) then they get an email reminding them that they have a house. Or something like that.


 
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tehdave
 Wednesday, April 28 2010 @ 10:07 PM UTC  
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I think a lot of these issues would be easily resolved given one addition to dwellings:

KEYS

Let the dwelling owner assign permissions to different key levels, including a{ny number of} secondary master-keys, for, say clan officers. That way, anyone with a Locking Key can lock or unlock rooms, anyone with a Decoration Key can set up decorations, anyone with a Build Key can set up new build jobs, and anyone with a Master Key can do all these things... Also, if the dwelling-owning account gets deleted, whoever has a Master Key for the dwelling is the default to "inherit" the dwelling.

Hell, that might be the simplest way to do it, rather than give every individual individual rights, just assign them a number of keys, and set a flag for certain rooms to be "owner only" or "Master Key only" for locking/unlocking/decoration/building.

And move the locking/decorations/build jobs/key management/etc. to its own submenu in the dwelling, rather than having the dwelling owner see a completely different interface for their own dwelling(s) as they see for others...

Sorry, a bit off topic there, but yeah...for orphaned dwellings, maybe if you go by number of rooms, or decoration actions required for the flavor text, (or a mixture of both) to determine the "Value" of the house if it goes to auction? Seems fair to me...and if the dwelling surpasses a certain "value" it can't get automatically demolished (So Dunbernarding will stand forever)


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Hairy Mary
 Wednesday, April 28 2010 @ 10:21 PM UTC  
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Teh Dave's right. The key's idea even takes care of 'what happens if someone has to leave the Island but the account's not deleted' question. Although I suppose that in this case could someone else start cutting and handing out keys? Change the locks and withdraw keys?


 
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Cake Ninja
 Thursday, April 29 2010 @ 12:15 AM UTC  
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Forgive me if this point has been brought up before, I have an awful memory for such things, but I would like to submit a point:

I have a dwelling that, like soup and pants, is there so people can have a nice warm... floor space to sleep on. Personally, if I disappear off the face of the island, I would like it to remain there as a monument to the kindness of the people on the island, as well as remaining to give everyone a place to sleep until newday. To me, it just doesn't seem right to simply destroy a dwelling like that just because nobody wants to buy it at auction because it doesn't have much decoration, so I think that there should be some sort of way to keep such dwellings around, perhaps if you go to the site of the dwelling you could do something that adds one to a counter and if that counter reaches a certain number that dwelling won't be destroyed?


 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, April 29 2010 @ 03:43 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Cake+Ninja

Forgive me if this point has been brought up before, I have an awful memory for such things, but I would like to submit a point:

I have a dwelling that, like soup and pants, is there so people can have a nice warm... floor space to sleep on. Personally, if I disappear off the face of the island, I would like it to remain there as a monument to the kindness of the people on the island, as well as remaining to give everyone a place to sleep until newday. To me, it just doesn't seem right to simply destroy a dwelling like that just because nobody wants to buy it at auction because it doesn't have much decoration, so I think that there should be some sort of way to keep such dwellings around, perhaps if you go to the site of the dwelling you could do something that adds one to a counter and if that counter reaches a certain number that dwelling won't be destroyed?

Somebody needs to be in charge of a dwelling, otherwise who'll cut the grass and kick the ghosts out?

If you should ever (heaven forbid) disappear off the Island, you'd most likely have some warning; you'd be able to scout around and find someone else to hand your dwelling over to, and there'd be no problem.

But hey, bad stuff does happen to good people. If it'll relieve your mind... I don't think I'm alone in valuing the soup and pants model of dwelling very highly. Tell me where your dwelling is, and I promise that if it ever does go to auction and nobody's buying it, I will.


 
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Cake Ninja
 Thursday, April 29 2010 @ 11:46 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: Cake+Ninja

Forgive me if this point has been brought up before, I have an awful memory for such things, but I would like to submit a point:

I have a dwelling that, like soup and pants, is there so people can have a nice warm... floor space to sleep on. Personally, if I disappear off the face of the island, I would like it to remain there as a monument to the kindness of the people on the island, as well as remaining to give everyone a place to sleep until newday. To me, it just doesn't seem right to simply destroy a dwelling like that just because nobody wants to buy it at auction because it doesn't have much decoration, so I think that there should be some sort of way to keep such dwellings around, perhaps if you go to the site of the dwelling you could do something that adds one to a counter and if that counter reaches a certain number that dwelling won't be destroyed?

Somebody needs to be in charge of a dwelling, otherwise who'll cut the grass and kick the ghosts out?

If you should ever (heaven forbid) disappear off the Island, you'd most likely have some warning; you'd be able to scout around and find someone else to hand your dwelling over to, and there'd be no problem.

But hey, bad stuff does happen to good people. If it'll relieve your mind... I don't think I'm alone in valuing the soup and pants model of dwelling very highly. Tell me where your dwelling is, and I promise that if it ever does go to auction and nobody's buying it, I will.

Thank you Sessine, It really does put my mind at ease. It's in PV, simply because it seemed like the best available spot to put such a building.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Thursday, April 29 2010 @ 03:05 PM UTC  
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Have to say Cake Ninja, as somebody who's used your place for the intended purpose, I'd put in a minimum bid for it, not because I particularly want to own it myself, but just to make sure that it didn't disappear.

By the way, how will we know when a place is up for auction? A message on the new day screen or something? It would have to be something active. If it was just a notice in council offices then no one would ever see it.


 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, April 29 2010 @ 05:57 PM UTC  
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Er. I'd better say: None of this is official! It's only me, as player, going into hypothetical design mode. For fun. Big Grin It may never happen, or may happen quite differently -- Dan's the real designer and coder around here, and what he comes up with is generally way cooler than anything we players think up.

But the way I imagine it is, the external description would have FOR SALE appended to the description, so anyone passing by would know.

The auctions would happen on a regular schedule, maybe weekly, maybe only once a month. There might, yes, be a New Day notification of how many properties are currently slated to be sold in the next auction (quite often this would be zero).

Either in Suzie's Hardware, or in a separate real estate office next door, there'd be a list of properties up for sale, so prospective buyers could go and inspect them. That's also where bids would be entered once the auction started.

And yes, your earlier suggestion is a good one: all doors in these properties should be unlocked when they are placed on the list.


 
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Cousjava
 Thursday, April 29 2010 @ 07:48 PM UTC  
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I just wish to say:

Thank you, Cake Ninja! Your dwelling may not be decorated, but I sleep there every night. I think its at least as important as Soup & Plants. I woul be will wiling to pay a vast amount of cigs for it, if it ever cam up at aution. (There is one problem though. I don't have vast amounts of cigs.)


A table, a chair, a bowl of fruit and a trombone; what else does a man need to be happy?
 
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Reverb
 Thursday, April 29 2010 @ 07:48 PM UTC  
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The IBSREM office! It lives!


"Censure acquits the Raven, but pursues the Dove." "So, that means i'm -always- innocent, right?"
 
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Anonymous: blob
 Tuesday, May 04 2010 @ 10:47 PM UTC  


How about this: A housing tax and ability to sell house.
To be able to transfer ownership through a lawyer or a bank, which is the closest to something lawyer-like, would be great. Would boost the economy as well probably. I would say the house price could be fixed, determined by:

  1. ) Distance from the nearest outpost (getting this number would be a bit hard if terrain is considered, but once you have it, it's just a number stored for each square).
  2. ) Number of floor spaces and rooms
  3. ) Amount of decoration already in place

Alternatively, you have the option to put your house up for sale, and either give it to the first person offering a specified amount, or give a certain amount of time and have an auction.

Now, here's the problem with selling a house. Should the price only be requisition? In which case, selling a house would be either a very stupid idea or the price would be so high, only very few of the richest people could afford them.
On the other hand, allowing cigarettes in the price enables players to transfer cigarettes between each other.
Having a lawyer tax would fix the imbalance though, in my opinion. A lawyer tax would be twofold. First is a fixed tax, perhaps based on the previously stated criteria, and second is a percentage of the price. let's say 10%. This would prevent house thading to transfer cigarettes. Hopefully.

The other idea, the housing tax, would basically put houses of inactive players back on the market and give them to good hands. Basically, every so often (maybe once in every few real-time weeks) you would have to pay a certain amount of cigarettes in a given time period (10 cigarettes to be payed in one week). If you fail to pay your tax, your house gets posessed by the "authorities", and you perhaps have another week or so to buy it back for the price of tax plus penalties (100 cigarettes perhaps). If still nothing, house gets put to an auction at the bank. Or where you rent tools.
For the house-re-buying mechanism you guys actually had some pretty good ideas and some I would say are better than mine, so perhaps, people, who dropped logs and did some work at the house get to have the first pick at the auction.

But I think the system I describe here is a bit harsh for a game environment, this is why I am a bit skeptical of it. I would still like to hear your ideas of it though. Perhaps it even gets implemented.


p.s
The distance algorithm would require a bit of knowledge of graph theory. Each square is represented with a node, where the weight of the node is equal to action for that particular terrain type at level 100 (or 0, ratios should stay the same if I understand correctly) and is connected to it's neighbours with edges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra's_algorithm
Using dijkstra's algorithm, you can get the shortest distances for each square, let that run for a while and you get the distances for each square. After that, the numbers are all you need, as the map is a static object. Sorted. Can I get my PhD now, please? Cool


 
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Syd Lexic
 Wednesday, May 05 2010 @ 02:11 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Reverb

The IBSREM office! It lives!



Erm... you mean that made up bureau with me appointed as the Orwellian-Big-Brother Surveillant-General? You didn't actually open an office, did you?

That means I have to show up somewhere occasionally!

This is going to really cut into my laziness.


 
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Mr Geppetto
 Wednesday, May 05 2010 @ 09:27 AM UTC  
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Oh, no! I hear TAX! I hear OFFICE! Oh my, oh, my, oh my, please tell me guys you're just kidding! Please save this wonderful island of insanity of things like that, that plague this other insanity continent we call RL. If anyone starts thinking about revenue tax and VAT and healthcare issues I'm outta here. Please.

On the other hand, maybe on II one could have a huge bonus of something (I'm thinking hats or shoes) for actually killing (or at least severely maiming) the taxman? Bhahaha!

Yep, probably need therapy.*slinks off to buy yet another pair of shoes*

Seriously now, back to the matter at hand, I think auctioning them is a marvelous idea, I like what Sessine proposed as a system.

And, Cake Ninja, I'd also bid in for a place like yours, 'Shelter from the outdoors', isn't it?


 
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Count Sessine
 Wednesday, May 05 2010 @ 05:52 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Mr+Geppetto

Seriously now, back to the matter at hand, I think auctioning them is a marvelous idea, I like what Sessine proposed as a system.

And, Cake Ninja, I'd also bid in for a place like yours, 'Shelter from the outdoors', isn't it?

Lovely scheme, innit? With the clever adjustments that people have contributed here, it would address everything! Everything, I tell you! *pauses to admire...*

It has one little flaw, alas... one fatal flaw: it's a complicated bit of code that wouldn't get much use. It will never be written -- and shouldn't be.

*waves farewell to the pretty Auction Cloudcastle*

So what do you guys think of the new plan -- leaving it up to the admin, and us mods? Master keys should handle those cases where two or more active players want to share ongoing responsibility for a property; we'll look at those first if the initial stakeholder should leave the game.

For orphan dwellings with no master keys (it'll happen), we will listen, and use common sense.


 
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Cake Ninja
 Wednesday, May 05 2010 @ 06:01 PM UTC  
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Indeed, that's the one. And I'm shocked by how many people have offered to buy the dwelling if I disappear. I'm also very happy due to the fact that so many people appreciate the place.

I would fight against* a cig tax on dwellings. Between helping SOUR max their buffs and building the shelter, I'd have no cigs to pay it with! And I enjoy having ownership of it, for comfort reasons.

*No, not like in the jungle.


 
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Kash
 Wednesday, May 05 2010 @ 07:24 PM UTC  
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I agree, a tax would be far too... heavy. Especially for people who occassionally have real lives and may not always have hours a day to cig-hunt (or the RL cash to buy them with DPs). It would penalize people simply for not playing enough, rather than just for not playing at all by which I mean deleting their account and/or dying IRL. I wouldn't want to lose Kash's dugout simply because the tax date fell in the middle of finals and I was busy at work and didn't have time to grind for the 100 cig penalties. Especially since only two people even know where the dugout is and that other person maybe would care enough to notice that the dugout is in danger of being lost.


 
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