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CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 06:19 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Quote by: Maniak

Since you have amnesia after the DK...

No you don't.

Or, you don't have to.

I mean, yes, the DK flavor text says the Watcher gives you merciful amnesia after the DK 'cuz, woe, you look different, you're a different race, and it's all traumatic and such... but really. Who actually plays it that way through more than... a few DKs at most? Makes a joke out of roleplaying continuity. Everyone eventually ignores it.

Amnesia once -- okay, maybe. Amnesia hundreds of times in a row? Nope. That memory-wipe drug has to stop working after multiple exposures. On some people it's never worked at all.



Yeah, that's one of the things we're gonna have to wait 'til S3 to take away - but for now, Sessine's got the right idea here.


 
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Matthew
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 06:29 AM UTC  
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I like to think of it as a character just gaining a resistance to the drug she fills you up with every time, like... morphine. So the flavor text still works, in that sense.


 
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dizzyizzy
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 06:41 AM UTC  
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Meh, I don't think I ever did the memory loss thing. It seemed, when I was a rookie, like it'd be annoying for everyone to have to deal with memory loss after memory loss, so I just ignored that.


 
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Anonymous: A Familiar Looking Suit of Armor
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 07:49 AM UTC  


Regarding the numerous ways to acquire the necessary req to get an "easy" r7 or Bastard... well, I'm not one for cheating, sure, but honestly? How is it any different than grinding/power levelling via the Gauntlet? I mean if someone were to spend enough time and money they could pump up their stats to the point where their second DK could be a Bastard, right? Right?

The way I see it, it's just a means to an end. There's ways, people. It all depends on how you go about it. Or, y'know, whether you go about it at all.


 
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Mister Rawr
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 08:00 AM UTC  
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Quote by: A Familiar Looking Suit of Armor

I mean if someone were to spend enough time and money they could pump up their stats to the point where their second DK could be a Bastard, right? Right?



Nuh uh.

When your character's hitpoints increase, those of the jungle monsters do, as well as their capacity to do damage. Despite Rawr's 1080 or so hitpoints, he regularly takes 1500 500 points of damage per attack during a Bastard Rank run. Accumulating more of the things isn't always the answer.


 
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Anonymous: A Familiar Looking Suit of Armor
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 08:26 AM UTC  


Quote by: Mister+Rawr



When your character's hitpoints increase, those of the jungle monsters do, as well as their capacity to do damage. Despite Rawr's 1080 or so hitpoints, he regularly takes 1500 500 points of damage per attack during a Bastard Rank run. Accumulating more of the things isn't always the answer.



Is that affected by all stats? Do the monsters' ATK and DEF increase based upon your base ATK and DEF as well? Because if not, it would still work.


 
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Cousjava
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 10:28 AM UTC  
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For my memory loss, its a little each time, so Cousjava cannot remember things far back in time. Already I don't mention life before the island, and soon I think I might delete all of that from the wiki as well. Part of that is because I like mutants for game play and role playing purposes, so in a while it will seem to be that Cousjava has always been a mutant, though he knows (hazily) that he was not always so, but doesn't care.


A table, a chair, a bowl of fruit and a trombone; what else does a man need to be happy?
 
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Wongo the Sane
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 12:44 PM UTC  
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We seem to be drifting off topic a little - how peculiar.

I've always played the amnesia as more of a... memory alteration.
Wongo can remember everything he's done as well as the next man. Except that he's always been whatever race he happens to be now.
And he can't remember killing the drive. He can remember the fights he loses. For the fights he wins, he remembers everything up to and including opening the lab door - and then he wakes up in a town with his ass busted back to Level 1. In most places, that seems to fit the flavor text at least as well as complete amnesia.


 
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Mister Rawr
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 02:35 PM UTC  
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Quote by: A Familiar Looking Suit of Armor


Is that affected by all stats? Do the monsters' ATK and DEF increase based upon your base ATK and DEF as well? Because if not, it would still work.



Dunno for sure, but it sure seems like Rawr's taking a whole lot more damage on a Rank 4 these days than he did... oh... a year ago. The difference? A hundred DKs or so and lots'a HP.

Erm... sorry folks, seems I've wandered away from the point of this thread. What was it again?


 
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Ashtu
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 03:15 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Mister+Rawr

Erm... sorry folks, seems I've wandered away from the point of this thread. What was it again?

Putting together a lynch mob for Matthew.


Thank you.
 
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Hairy Mary
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 05:51 PM UTC  
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Some people have done interesting things with the amnesia. For example, trying to hide a notebook before a DK and then wondering round trying to work out what the hell's going on afterwards. So it can be good.

But not for most of us, most of the time. So if it seems to someone to open up fun possibilities, then go for it, otherwise forget about it. (!)
I think you can stretch cannon for a good bit or roleplaying. To me, the Skronkys really were born and bred midgets. Its not just that they don't remember being anything else. They really have never been anything else. This despite the museum telling us that midgets are 'made, not born'.

There's quite a few characters on the Island who weren't kidnapped and brought here by government goons, and some of these are rather good. Chimental springs to mind. Definite positive contribution to the Island in my opinion.

So yes. Such matters can help you with a character, but they should be treated as guidelines, not limitations, and for most of us, forgetting everything every DK isn't going to be interesting, just a pain in the arse. So it should be quietly forgotten.

On a side note. CMJ. Having to select rank straight away may well change players behaviour re. titans. It might well be worth while keeping an eye on titans and outpost onslaughts for a week or so.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Wednesday, December 01 2010 @ 10:51 PM UTC  
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Quote by: A Familiar Looking Suit of Armor

Regarding the numerous ways to acquire the necessary req to get an "easy" r7 or Bastard... well, I'm not one for cheating, sure, but honestly? How is it any different than grinding/power levelling via the Gauntlet? I mean if someone were to spend enough time and money they could pump up their stats to the point where their second DK could be a Bastard, right? Right?

The way I see it, it's just a means to an end. There's ways, people. It all depends on how you go about it. Or, y'know, whether you go about it at all.



Actually, the entire thing about it is how you go about it. The means is the important part in a game's design. How is grinding/power leveling via the Gauntlet any different than pressing a "Increase Attack, Defense, and HP values by over 9000" button once per day?

It's all different because they all have their own actions needed and rewards received. When you want something to be an accomplishment for players in the game, it needs to give the feeling of challenge to get there. When you have a couple intended ways for players to accomplish whatever it might be, and the players subvert your paths and trivialize the challenge by doing unintended things, it also trivializes the accomplishment and leaves the players asking for more in order to engage them.

There are game balance and game challenge reasons to why the game is designed to start you off with 0 req each time you play. The intention is you have to overcome the difficulties of being ill-equipped among other things by fighting your way up. If you find your away around starting without money, you play without another difficulty dynamic, which is another challenge, which is another part in the feeling of accomplishment that rewards the player and keeps them engaged.


 
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Makiwa
 Thursday, December 02 2010 @ 04:28 AM UTC  
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Don't know whether any of you check out TED at all but this was an interesting talk:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/tom_chatfield_7_ways_games_reward_the_brain.html

Also, completely OT here's a teacher I wish I'd had at school - search for Clifford Stoll on www.ted.com


It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.
 
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Anonymous: A Familiar Looking Suit of Armor
 Friday, December 03 2010 @ 10:45 AM UTC  


Quote by: Awesome+Fred



blah blah blah some stuff about being rewarded for effort



No, that isn't meant to be a smart ass remark. Well, maybe a little. I understand what you're saying, Fred, because that was kind of my point. There are (ostensibly) many ways to go about achieving the same results via different means and measures of effort. Some of them are 'legal', i.e. they're purposely built into the game. Like the Gauntlet.

Take me, for example. All I do is RP and build dwellings. I've only got one DK. I buy everything I need because honestly, I'd rather invest the money than the time and effort to do it via drive kills. That allows me more time and energy for building and RPing.

Does this count as cheating? I didn't 'work' for any of it, I didn't put in any real 'effort' for anything, but you know what? I feel just as accomplished because I'm still investing something. Money, in this case, rather than time and energy. Although technically I'm still investing those as well, just in a more efficient manner. That's what gives me a sense of accomplishment.

This is all beside the point, though. My point was that there are mechanics such as the Gauntlet that are built directly into the game. Purposefully. And those mechanics are fundamentally no different than the bugs that some people complain so much about. Am I arguing for the bugs? No. Am I arguing against the Gauntlet and its counterparts? No. I'm just pointing out something I find a bit interesting, is all. It has no direct bearing on me since I don't use either one.

Just don't start complaining about the brews or the new "drop your pack" thing when logging/stonecutting. Those are a godsend (thank you so much, CMJ!) and if anyone even suggests they are unfair in any way, I will rip their heart out and eat it raw. Hahaha!

Seriously though, don't. I KNOW WHERE YOU ARE.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, December 03 2010 @ 06:50 PM UTC  
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Honestly, I'm not quite sure where this is going then. The Gauntlet is one of the repeatable-but-non-sustainable methods of increasing your character's abilities. You can theoretically benefit from it every day, but you lose charm faster than you can practically reliably regain, and so you have to take breaks and spends days without going to the Gauntlet. In the meanwhile, you then lose out on charm discounts for gearing at Sheila's. There are intentional balancing factors with the Gauntlet's existence.

I don't see how you're making a point with your last post other than, "There's no difference between exploits and game mechanics." Intrinsically, that's right. Exploits are often a giant overlap with the phrase "creative use of game mechanics". The difference is just what the game designer wants the player to do or not do, based on the difficulties and trivializations involved with this new method that the players found.

I think you're defending your play unnecessarily. Builder's Brews and the new Drop Your Pack thing are completely and wholly sanctioned-by-the-developer mechanics. They aren't the result of combined different game mechanics, they exist and do their function because CMJ put them in for that. There's no possibility that anyone is going to tell you that donating to the game for Builder's Brews is exploiting or cheating.

Sorry if I still got the wrong message from your post. But I didn't see a single person leveling an accusation at another for being a cheater. You can't always know if a mechanic is an exploit. And if the developer knows about it but doesn't patch it, and you see this, that's even more reason to think it actually is intended or at least not cheating. I did the PSK-reward-next-DK stuff constantly and sometimes the Titan version and will probably do it again unless I'm told, "Don't do that anymore, we're patching it out soon too." I'm also sitting at 1.8 million experience points (out of 65,000) at level 15, and it's been my 90th day or so at level 15 on this DK. I'm not above circumventing what looks to be intended game mechanics because until I'm told otherwise, I think to myself that I'm just being creative.


EDIT: I used the phrase "completely and wholly" again. Hmm. Did I pick this up from somewhere and it's just floating around in my head?


 
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Maniak
 Friday, December 03 2010 @ 09:12 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Honestly, I'm not quite sure where this is going then. The Gauntlet is one of the repeatable-but-non-sustainable methods of increasing your character's abilities. You can theoretically benefit from it every day, but you lose charm faster than you can practically reliably regain, and so you have to take breaks and spends days without going to the Gauntlet. In the meanwhile, you then lose out on charm discounts for gearing at Sheila's. There are intentional balancing factors with the Gauntlet's existence.



I've been doing some charm research, and if you have under ~23 charm (I'm not sure of the number, could even be 25) you can quite reliably gain 3 charm per day in the PSK. The gauntlet takes between 2 and 5 charm points away, so it is sustainable with a bit of luck with the 6 or so random events that give charm. I get 5% discount, and a daily trip to the gauntlet. It's practical. It's sustainable, and I'm not even trying.


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Count Sessine
 Friday, December 03 2010 @ 09:35 PM UTC  
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The Gauntlet isn't something you'd necessarily want to use every day, even if you could. Hit points aren't one of those 'more is always better' things. There's a sweet spot -- different for each character, depending on many other factors. Healing costs rise, for example, which can be really limiting if you want to play as a Robot.

Moreover, the sweet spot moves as you scale the DK ladder and start to tackle higher ranks. Balancing the factors and deciding when you want to do another series of Gauntlet visits is a very important element in game-play strategy. You don't want to make a mistake; there's no comparable way to shed hp if you find you've acquired too many.

I agree with this:

You can't always know if a mechanic is an exploit. And if the developer knows about it but doesn't patch it, and you see this, that's even more reason to think it actually is intended or at least not cheating.
As a player, you don't get a link that says, "Read CMJ's mind." If he hasn't said anything about a particular combination of game characteristics that yields an advantage -- and it seems pretty clear he knows about it -- you have no way to tell whether he thinks it's okay, or whether patching it just slipped down too many notches on the to-do list.

There are, as you say, large grey areas.

The fact that the Island is complex enough that it can be played in many different ways, some of which weren't foreseen at all by the designer -- that's very good. It's an amazing achievement! But, sometimes those unexpected paths can interfere with game balance.

My own take on game balance is that there is no such thing as 'fair' or 'unfair' on the Island, or 'cheating' vs. 'not cheating'. That's not a useful frame of reference. There is only more fun vs. less fun.

Starting out at level 1 equipped to just sail through the Jungle unopposed is certainly less fun if you're new on the Island. It means you miss out on the progression of armor and weapons, you don't experience any tension in the battles... the game shouldn't let people do that.

When you've done fifty or a hundred DKs already, though... you've been there, done that. You've seen all the monsters over and over -- you've moved on. Fighting is no longer interesting in its own right, but rather as a means to an end. You're thinking about longer-term game objectives spanning many DKs. Maxing out a skill, for instance. Or maybe you're seriously focused on building, and monsters just get in the way. At that point, good starting equipment is more fun.

So. In my opinion, what's wrong with the Dan quests is not that they allow people who invest the effort to start out a DK run well equipped. It's that they are not fun. They are repetitive. They are boring. Nobody would do them more than a handful of times, were it not for the DK carryover. ... well. Perhaps not entirely true. There is the quester list in the hall of fame. But getting to the top of a list doesn't provide much reason for pride unless there's some value to having what's being listed. I suspect quester points alone would not be enough motivation for most.

If the Dan quest rewards are not going to carry over past a DK, in other words... I say, scrap them entirely. Yes, I would be sentimental about losing those misspelled monsters which have been part of the game since the very beginning -- the Sea Sperpent, the Chimrera -- but I'd rather Dan's rumors started being about something else entirely. Something that would be more fun.


 
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Anonymous: A Familiar Looking Suit of Armor
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 03:05 AM UTC  


Quote by: Maniak

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Honestly, I'm not quite sure where this is going then. The Gauntlet is one of the repeatable-but-non-sustainable methods of increasing your character's abilities. You can theoretically benefit from it every day, but you lose charm faster than you can practically reliably regain, and so you have to take breaks and spends days without going to the Gauntlet. In the meanwhile, you then lose out on charm discounts for gearing at Sheila's. There are intentional balancing factors with the Gauntlet's existence.



I've been doing some charm research, and if you have under ~23 charm (I'm not sure of the number, could even be 25) you can quite reliably gain 3 charm per day in the PSK. The gauntlet takes between 2 and 5 charm points away, so it is sustainable with a bit of luck with the 6 or so random events that give charm. I get 5% discount, and a daily trip to the gauntlet. It's practical. It's sustainable, and I'm not even trying.



This is what I was saying. With the thirteen chronospheres I have, I can visit the gauntlet several times in a single realtime day and never lose any charm. If I purchase New Days or refill my spheres with DP, theoretically I could make endless visits. I don't, because there's no point for me. I stopped around 80-90 extra HP because that's enough of a buff to ascertain the average monster doesn't kill me while I'm traveling.

Fred, I'm not trying to be aggressive, nor am I trying to be defensive. The brew/Drop You Pack comment was a joke, really. Well, except for the godsend part, because they really do help out a lot. As Sessine said, there are a lot of grey areas. There are a lot of things in the game that overlap as far as usage goes. And as I said before, I am neither condoning nor condemning anything in the game. If you really want to get specific, the bugs wouldn't be a problem if people didn't abuse them. The only reason they become a problem is because some people do abuse them, and that's more of a moral or ethical problem than it is a mechanical problem. And in the same light, those who would exploit bugs tend to exploit in-game mechanics as well. That's all I'm saying. I only mentioned the Gauntlet because it was the only example I could think of.

tl;dr: It's not the game, it's the people playing it.


 
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bl0b
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 03:48 AM UTC  
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Oh, I just had to butt in again.

Gauntlet every day is very, very doable. I managed to go through both bastard ranks doing that, and I still get 25% discount from sheila. Not only that, if I put some effort into it, I can bump my charm to the rank it was before I started doing bastard ranks. And I'm not the one that's trying the hardest.
Here's how you can do it. Start a rank you're ok with. That is, anything that allows you to fight through first few levels completely naked. Then go and collect as much money as you can. Titans are awesome for that, since they don't give you any experience. After you've piled up money, buy tonnes of improbable bombs., or if you are a joker, loads of regular bombs and turn those into improbable bombs. If you start feeling guilty about jacking up prices, just remember you're helping out rookies.
Now, sometime back, all you needed to have was anything above 500HP, and imp. bombs couldn't kill you by blowing up in your face. Now, they blow up in your face for double your max HP. It's a bit better that way, but you still can get away with a few bombs exploding in your face if you already have loads of HP. All you need to do is to go to the tynan's gym and put all your HP to attack/defence/combination of both. Start a new day and start throwing imp.bombs. After you come back from the failboat. if your bonus HP (actual max HP you have) are more than double your temporary max HP, you WILL survive the next blow from an imp. bomb. Still, even if you already have loads of bonus HP, this type of training is going to be very heavy on your favor with the watcher.
Fortunately there's an amazing alternative. Visit pleasantville*, stock up on improbable bombs and have a few cigarrettes ready. Overload up your bandolliere with bombs. About 30-ish bombs should do. Visit nightmare court. Do some experimenting, as on a good joker day, you can get away with hundreds. Throwing improbable bombs will give you more cigarettes than it costs to enter NC, it will increase your charm, but above all, it will not cost any favor if a bomb blows up in your face. Use your new cigarrettes to visit midgets in squat hole for extra bonus charm.

So what to do about the 'curse of expensive hitpoints'? Well, there's tynan's gym. The best bit about it is points survive the DK, they are just affected by newday effects. This makes healing feasible even with loads of hitpoints.

Now here's a way how you can get away with getting a lightning suit on a bastard rank without fighting a single monste, or collecting dan's questr. Bust a rail ticket at the start. There are 4 outposts sitting right on top of a train station. Use that to your advantage and do some smuggling between eboys. If you do it just right, you will get a moment when someone buys loads of one-shots to shoot around the island to kill the drive. Smuggling bombs should get you up to a level where you are capable of buying a one-shot and then slowly fill the hole up. If you want to cheat a bit and want to make sure you can do some profiteering at the start of a DK**, buy loads of grenades from AceHigh (trust me on the outpost) and sell them all to NewHome (again, trust me on this). When you start your new DK, just make sure you're either zombie, robot, joker or human. Then again, it's easier if you just ask a friend to send you over a few crates and one-shots while you're on a bastard rank. Rolling Eyes

Just saying that there ARE ways to 'cheat', even with the loss of ability to stall on your DK choice, you just have to look for them. And trust me, even if everything I mentioned in this post gets altered, there will still be ways of getting around "conventional rules". It's what I like about games in general. If I can't do that, I find them boring. Not saying I like bug exploits, mind you, but finding holes in mechanics.

*There is a reason why improbable bombs are expensive in pleasantville, and no, I'm far from the only culprit.
** Yes, this its the only thing I consider cheating. No I have never done it and the reason for outpost choice is because AH will usually be the one with most expensive and NH the outpost with least expensive bombs.


 
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Iriana
 Saturday, December 04 2010 @ 04:20 AM UTC  
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Quote by: bl0b

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This is what games should do--encourage players to use the mechanics of the game in a creative way to achieve an end. It's arguable that this method gets boring after a while, but at least you're forced to spend some time developing this method in the first place, and you get to explore (in the case of bl0b's way) things like Tynan's, the Nightmare Court, etc. etc.

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Quote by: bl0b

If you want to cheat a bit and want to make sure you can do some profiteering at the start of a DK**, buy loads of grenades from AceHigh (trust me on the outpost) and sell them all to NewHome (again, trust me on this).



I don't consider this cheating because it's (meaning price differences, etc.) programmed into the game. Only when something is not meant to be part of the game and is exploited is it cheating. This I call being clever.


 
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