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 Let's Talk About Stats
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Matthew
 Monday, February 07 2011 @ 06:15 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak

- Chem pack is useless for strong fighters, since it relies on slooowly charging it. If you plan on doing the slowest DK ever, use it.



Mm... I disagree. Chempack is really great for strong characters if only for the Stimpack option; when you have Entirely Too Much Bonus HP like I do, it becomes downright necessary because the hospital is simply too expensive otherwise.

Perhaps another reason to include a way to shed HP; it seems, these days, that having a lot of HP hurts more than it helps. Things can hit me for hundreds of damage on a rank 5, and that just doesn't seem right.


 
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Maniak
 Monday, February 07 2011 @ 07:46 PM UTC  
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You have a vastly different style then, last time I used it it still only had a max capacity of 2000 by the time I reached level 15. I guess it's better if you enjoy fights on low health. I'm not so comfortable with having less than 50% health.


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Awesome Fred
 Tuesday, February 08 2011 @ 07:12 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak

You have a vastly different style then, last time I used it it still only had a max capacity of 2000 by the time I reached level 15. I guess it's better if you enjoy fights on low health. I'm not so comfortable with having less than 50% health.



Yeah, I run at about 30% health most fights, and my max capacity is usually around 4000+ by level 15, if not 5000. The Chemical Pack is my strongest and most useful by far, since it vastly reduces hospital visits.


 
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Maniak
 Tuesday, February 08 2011 @ 12:09 PM UTC  
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Good to see the differences.

More ideas:

- Items based combat, with the ability to switch weapons. An extra weapon inventory. Skills for using different weapons.
- Upgradeable weapons. The option to invest in your weapon. Add an AI, HUD and/or SPS option, like armour currently has.
- Weapon decay. Exposed to the harsh jungle climate and repeated banging against monsters your weapon will degrade over time.

Assuming there will be no significant changes to the economy, I like the idea of upgradeable weapons most. I have some 10-20k req leftover at the end of a drivekill and I'd like to be able to invest in a (semi-) permanent upgrade. Right now we have hats to spend excess req on, but Deimos requires at least a 10% increase in worth. My hat is worth ~500k, and Deimos laughs in my face when I offer him 20k. A different and not completely useless req sink would be nice. Maybe a different version of the marble module up in the Labs? Buy marbles, instead of finding them. Then again, it's also akin to Scrapbots and Mount accessories.

I think a competitive system where you can fight against others using a trinket like scrapbots or marbles would fit in well with the friendly nature of the Island. Why PvP when you can be a gentlemen and let something else fight for you?

Can be really extensive, like a dueling tournament, where you enter your favourite, and it progresses up the ladder. To keep it special, it would be a once a fortnight kind of happening, with daily fights happening automatically. Betting is optional, but you do pay req for entering.
Or it can be really simplified, like mouse-racing.


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Sneaky
 Friday, February 11 2011 @ 04:09 AM UTC  
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A good compensation for higher HP players would be to give them more Requisition gains from randomized events.


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Awesome Fred
 Thursday, March 03 2011 @ 06:44 AM UTC  
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The current system is unbalanced and nearly single-dimensioned. The following proposals seek to 1) provide interesting choices by adding more stats, 2) balance the worth of each stat to keep each one relevant and prevent the choices from sliding into no-brainers instead of pure preferences, 3) make combat decisions less mindless by introducing a system of counters, and 4) integrating stats into effects throughout all aspects of the game helps bridge the gap between the role-play and combat portions of the game. We need to be careful not to make the game impossible for role-players to enjoy if they wish not to devote so much time to fighting, though hopefully they want to do more fighting anyway.

Now, these stats are just examples of what we could have. I stole some of Bakemaster's great names.

Beef - this stat represents how much raw muscle your character possesses.
Zip - this stat represents how quickly your character reacts and responds.
Rogue - this stat represents how well your character can avoid notice and how resourceful and unexpected your character can be when noticed.
Charm - this stat represents how easily your character interacts with others.
Improbability - this stat represents how unstable your character is.


The idea is that so many different combat mechanics are derivative from these base attributes that are central to your bio and are themselves unchanged by race. If you are beefy, you will be a beefy mutant as well as a thick-necked kittymorph as well as a wide-load-bearing robot. We could have two perspectives of how the races interact with your stats.

1) Races will provide a % increase or decrease directly to the 5 attributes, and all combat mechanics derive from the modified attributes.

2) Your attributes always remain the same regardless of race. The effects themselves will have their fancy decreases and increases. Your damage dealt, for example, will be filtered through the buffs before landing on the enemy, so your strong mutants arms will do more melee damage and your padded kittymorph paws don't help your grip and make melee damage lessened. But either time, you had it listed as "20 Beef" in your bio.




The enemies might benefit from having their stats linked to what they actually are. They do not always have to make sense. If a level 16 Pretty Flower has the same Beef as a level 1 Lion, so be it. It doesn't matter. But what does matter, is that we should say that Pretty Flower has higher Charm than it has Beef. Since it is just so pretty, we find our ability to insult it difficult and so Ronsen-Kiai attacks will be 50% less effective, but normal physical attacks will snap it like nothing, so those do 200% damage to Pretty Flower. This stops players like me from always just smashing the T key to look for Trouble, standard fight To the death, rinse and repeat. We can change what we do in response to each enemy.

The stats of every enemy should show. This way, we also have the ability to make our decisions. Since undoubtedly many of our monsters will be hard for one to decide between a Rogue or Zip bonus, or maybe they have no bonus or penalty at all, things won't be obvious enough for players to easily figure out EVERY enemy's attributes. I don't think we should sacrifice funny descriptions if it's hard to assign stats to, since I think the funny monster descriptions are the number one reason why people keep battling when new to the game.



Before I get into examples about what the stats do, let me talk about the gear:

Weapons should have a distinction between melee and ranged, at least conceptually if not an actual flag. More precisely, weapons should have a distinction from which stat(s) increase(s) its damage. A beefy character will hit harder with a Riot Hammer but no difference should be made if they're using a Plasma Gun. A quick character will aim and shoot fast with a 9mm Pistol, but agility has a limited effect to your performance with a Rusty Chainsaw (but not 0% effect to your performance). Health should be a function of Beef, but Armors can interact with more than just that one stat. The current Charm-based Lingerie is an example of the idea, though the current Charm is quite a different stat than the attributes I'm talking about since it is so fluid, and I'm thinking that Invisisuits will use Rogue to reduce damage taken instead of Beef.




Now, here are the examples I want to throw out about how combat could work based around these stats:

Beef will provide Max HP. Many melee weapons will gain a high percentage (perhaps over 100%) of the stat added to the damage they deal. Others, like powertools like the Circular Saw, only receive a middling transfer. Similarly, many Armors will reduce damage taken by a value plus 100% of your Beef, but others at 80% or 50%, or 0% for the Force Generator.

Zip will boost your chance to dodge (the enemy misses) and your opponent's chance to dodge by comparing it to the enemy's Zip. It also determines who goes first in a fight. It will skew a ranged weapon towards the high end of its damage range (aiming better) and also determine how many attacks you perform during a round of combat (hence how it helps melee weapons). It will also reduce damage taken if a speed-based Armor benefits it.

Rogue would increase your likelihood to pull off Power Moves (striking critical points), have success when Running Away (perhaps Zip also factors in), and let you steal req and sometimes Cigs from the cameras.

Charm would increase the success rates of Ronsen-Kiai and perhaps also a Peacemaking fighting ability (please?) that people have requested in the past. In addition, Charm could still function as a discount mechanic, but with exponentially diminishing returns so we don't have a situation with people getting armor, helmet, boots, and gloves for 4 req (it was a FIRE SALE!). If non-removable stats influencing price is too imbalancing, that feature can be scrapped.

I envision Improbability to be a largely immobile stat that is pretty much equal to the amount of DKs you have, with few modifiers to it in game if any. The effect of Improbability should be to just increase the range that your effects can vary between. The recent skill exp change makes every exp gain a number that varies between 80 to 120 instead of its old flat 100. It should be like that, but for things like damage and dodge chances. If your beef and weapon and buff calculations give your damage for the round a possible damage amount between 30 and 70, your Improbability stat might expand the range to 15 and 85. Or perhaps dangerously (in terms of balance) 15 to 140, but with weighting towards the lower end of the spectrum. Something. Or perhaps the Improbability stat can do much more if you guys get creative.




Hopefully, an effect all of this should have is to reduce the growth of veteran player abilities versus those of rookies. How so? Simply because DK points will likely be spread out between 4-5 attributes (Improbability might just be a free one point) instead of 3 (if we call HP an attribute), and they'll work in conjunction well enough to discourage stacking just one stat and ignoring the other three.

~~~~~~~~



Hrm. I always feel like while writing, the post is much more fleshed out than when I look back after it's written. Ah, well. Hopefully you guys are keen on the idea. I really want to get Season 3's combat system to be an interesting and fleshed-out system with balance-by-numbers done after fun-by-mechanics is set up. Being a combat game is the draw, and roleplay keeps them here. If the combat isn't interesting, there's less chance they'll stay long enough for the RP to seep into them.


 
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dizzyizzy
 Thursday, March 03 2011 @ 02:02 PM UTC  
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On the charm bit: I've wondered if it could be set up on a curve... at first, you're just slightly less ugly, so the marginal benefit from gaining another charm point is pretty low. As you reach handsomeness, the rate begins to pick up. It peaks at some point, and the rate begins to drop - diminishing marginal returns on Sheila's part. While the discount is theoretically limitless on this system, it will soon take 600 charm to decrease price by .02% or whatever.

Did that make any sense at all?


 
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Wongo the Sane
 Thursday, March 03 2011 @ 02:48 PM UTC  
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Quote by: dizzyizzy

On the charm bit: I've wondered if it could be set up on a curve... at first, you're just slightly less ugly, so the marginal benefit from gaining another charm point is pretty low. As you reach handsomeness, the rate begins to pick up. It peaks at some point, and the rate begins to drop - diminishing marginal returns on Sheila's part. While the discount is theoretically limitless on this system, it will soon take 600 charm to decrease price by .02% or whatever.

Did that make any sense at all?



It kind of works a bit like that already. The discount you get at Sheilas doesn't improve linearly with Charm, it follows exponential decay until you hit 25% - where it's capped.

Unfortunately, I don't know how much charm it takes to get to this level - while I kept extensive notes, I didn't think to start them at zero and I'm not going for a swim in the Skronky Pot to find out. As an educated guess though, I'd say somewhere around the 150 mark.


 
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Maniak
 Thursday, March 03 2011 @ 03:09 PM UTC  
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It does make sense, to me at least. The current system is a one of diminishing returns; If you have 2 charm, your next charm point gives you 0.22% more discount. By the time you reach 150 charm, your next charm point only gives you 0.12% more discount. It declines more or less gradually. (see also the Raw Charm Calculator Thread)

What you're suggesting is more a bellcurve, with a sweet spot. It shares one drawback with the current system; at a certain point you don't need more.Let's get a reason to keep growing past 25% discount. A module's outcome influences how much charm you have, why are there so few things where charm influences the outcome? Something like Fred said above, maybe it should influence random encounters too - not just monsters, but NPCs as well.

Quote by Awesome Fred
The stats of every enemy should show. This way, we also have the ability to make our decisions. Since undoubtedly many of our monsters will be hard for one to decide between a Rogue or Zip bonus, or maybe they have no bonus or penalty at all, things won't be obvious enough for players to easily figure out EVERY enemy's attributes.


Hmm. Maybe the ability to see stats should be a learned skill, like cooking or Ronsen-Kai or timed fighting. New Game+, you start the same game, with more things unlocked. This is a great system, because players can find out what works for them if you slowly introduce things. Exploration is a large part of the game. Players care a lot more about their character if they see it gradually improve. Theoretically, this would further improve player retention.

The New Game+ aspect of the island is a big selling point, though one that's often overlooked. A lot of it is right at the beginning. I don't know how the balance is now, but by the time I had 5 DKs, I was hoping for more plot that didn't come until months later. I hope it's a bit more spread out now.


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Kuroiten
 Thursday, March 03 2011 @ 11:44 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak

...I think a competitive system where you can fight against others using a trinket like scrapbots or marbles would fit in well with the friendly nature of the Island. Why PvP when you can be a gentlemen and let something else fight for you?



Marbles? Why not furbles?

I've been meaning to have a look at what's already in place and ask for collaborative assistance in setting up something for them. Seeing it mentioned here reminded me that I was.

Anyhow, to remain slightly on topic, yes, New Game+ is a giant draw to the Island.


Judging by the chaos, I've been here already.
 
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Maniak
 Friday, March 04 2011 @ 12:02 AM UTC  
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Marbles because someone already did a whole bunch of awesome work on a marble module. This is the first time I hear of a furble. Besides, how can you let your pet do battle?

Furble uses cute!
It's not very effective..


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Maniak
 Sunday, March 06 2011 @ 06:11 PM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe
I can give you the readout of exactly how many CPU seconds your account spent rendering pages. This isn't a measure of the time you've played, or even the time spent transmitting the pages to you - it goes deeper than that. If you've ever played a Final Fantasy game that told you you'd been playing for eighty-odd hours, think of that - only instead of recording the time the console's been turned on, it records the time you spent opening and closing the disc tray to play the game.

I find the CPU seconds spent rendering pages very intriguing. A Hall of Fame entry for the "Most Broadcasted Contestants"? I'm not sure if it's actually a good thing, or a bad thing. Competing to be the biggest addict isn't a game anyone should be playing. But since the game is already keeping track of it, it could be made available. Maybe displayed when you delete, or get the auto-delete message?

I'm torn. Someone please convince me it's bad, an invasion of your privacy and a degradation of humanity.

Some sort of TV-rating stat sounds very interesting. It doesn't have to serve any function, or maybe it could be a way to gain favour while you're not on the failboat. Or a modifier to how much favour you'll gain. Yeah, that'll be quite unbalancing, an veteran kittymorph will have a blessing after his first trip to the failboat. Bad idea. Ooh, how about total experience in all stamina tasks divided by CPU seconds.. No, that would be a mostly static number.

People that are cleverer than me, work on this. Undoubtedly you can conjure up something. Let our stats reflect that the Island is primarily a Reality TV-show, not a jungle fighting lark. It seems as if lately only the Watcher is aware of this.


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Awesome Fred
 Saturday, May 28 2011 @ 02:52 PM UTC  
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I can raise the dead, because I have 3 skill in necromancy.

The reason I do so is really just a reminder of what I remembered from this thread. Look at this kinda-preposterous fight:


Tom Carney's Hitpoints (Level 1): 292
YOUR Hitpoints: 772
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 7 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 8 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but MISS!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but MISS!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
You hit Tom Carney for 4 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 5 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 1 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 7 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 7 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You hit Tom Carney for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but MISS!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 13 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 1 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 7 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 6 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You hit Tom Carney for 7 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 10 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 8 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 9 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney hits you for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 8 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 7 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You hit Tom Carney for 6 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
You hit Tom Carney for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 10 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 9 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 9 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 4 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 1 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 7 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but MISS!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 8 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 7 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 9 points of damage!
Tom Carney hits you for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney hits you for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You hit Tom Carney for 14 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but MISS!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
You hit Tom Carney for 2 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
You hit Tom Carney for 5 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 1 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 8 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 3 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 4 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 5 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 2 points of damage!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 2 points of damage!
You hit Tom Carney for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 6 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 1 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but MISSES!
Next round:
You're getting dangerously exhausted!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 8 points of damage!
You try to hit Tom Carney but are RIPOSTED for 7 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
Tom Carney tries to hit you but you RIPOSTE for 3 points of damage!
End of Round:
Tom Carney's Hitpoints (Level 1): DEFEATED
YOUR Hitpoints: 388


I had ~22% stamina at the beginning of the fight, that was 48-49 rounds of combat, this is a rank 7 but a gym leader fight, I have 50 natural defense and 28 natural attack. In bold are the attacks that WEREN'T ripostes of some sort, and misses are not included because frankly, they could have been ripostes.

It's a little absurd how few direct hits happened to how many counterattacks landed. What in the stat system made the battle go like this?


 
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Xavior Litencyre
 Monday, June 20 2011 @ 09:12 PM UTC  
Forum Newbie
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Registered: 06/08/11
Posts: 4

I was actually just really curious about this so I was poking around in code to find out just what the source of this silliness is. I was shocked and confused and had my mind exploded by what I learned. Therefore I will be hiding everything I say. If you can read tiny text, then...stop. Seriously. Close your eyes and look away. My insanity prevents me from resisting sharing. Control over your curiosity is your only hope! Unless you want a glimpse into the underpinnings of the universe that for some reason no one seems to spell out clearly and so clearly there must be a reason and I'm scared and sorry.

I've tried to split things up so you can decide how much you want to know, but if you are mathematically inclined, nothing you read here can save you from going insane. Turn back.

If you're not mathematically inclined, reading this is very likely to make you so, thereby making you insane. Just stop reading. To answer Fred, I don't know what caused it. None of this completely adequately explains the above riposterous fight, because Tom should have broken through at least 19% of the time. He actually broke through 3%. On 95 tries. In mathematical terms this is known as "huwah?" I could be missing something, but it seems odd that rank 7 would make things "easier" Unless you had a lot more defense than you suggested. My information likely contains inaccuracies and incompleteness. For instance, I haven't found how rank affects anything.





DON'T GO ON. SAVE YOURSELF
Seriously, it's overthinking semi-mathematical gibberish based on partial data. You're only going to hurt yourself.



Beware the small ones.
hehehehehehehehehehehehe

The start of my dark path was the fact that You don't want massive amounts of HP. The reason is for that is Enemies get stronger as your natural self does. Adding max HP over your level counts as if you'd beaten the drive and chosen HP, so they get just as strong as if you'd chosen an extra point of attack or defense.

The EXACT amount seems to be 25% of the points you've added to attack, defense, and HP(/5). This increases to 100% when you have 1500 points(without any drivekills, 7500hp. With 400 drivekills, 5500). At which point the enemies start becoming overall stronger than you. Yay!

The way this is distributed is A random amount from 0 to the maximum will go to Attack, a random amount of what's left will go to defense. Whatever remains gets added to hp.

This means that At some point, you will meet a monster that will have every single point you have on you invested into attack. Normally it will be distributed among hp, defense, and attack, with attack being the highest on average.

Beware of low HP monsters.



The way ripostes and attacks in general work actually seems quite simpleThe more defense you have compared to their attack, the more likely they are. A random number is rolled from 0 to attack, and from 0 to defense. This is straight up subtracted, and if negative, divided by two and turned into a riposte.

To get an incredibly successful riposte rate .... To get a 90% riposte rate you need 5 times more defense than their attack. At equal levels, the chance is 50% either way. To get a 97% rate, you need 16 times more defense than their attack. The maximum damage of a riposte is half the riposte's defense



The rest of this is random data gathering, an analysis of the above fight, and my descent into insanity, as well as the main thing wrong with my theory. Everything above is included in it in some way. Do not read under any circumstances.

So, basically. the issue is this. The game is supposed to become harder depending on how many drivekills you've had. Essentially what happens is every enemy you face is given extra strength depending on how powerful you are perceived. How powerful you are is determined two ways. Each enemy gets 1 point added semi-randomly to its stats(or 5hp) for every 5 points of max hp past your level. And for every drivekill. For extra fun, it seems that actually chosing hp instead of attack or defense gives you two points instead of one. Whatever that number is, it gets cut down to 25%(plus 1% for every 20 ACTUAL drive kills) Or 33% for trainers.Those points are then distributed randomly between attack, defense, and hp(in that order), with trainers needing at least 25% in attack and defense.

I was going to analyze Fred's fight, but there seem to be too many numbers missing. since Tom Carney's 292 HP(58.4 points)can't be more than 50% of the points involved, and (762/5+50+28)*.33 is only 76 points, Fred has to have at least 266 extra HP to generate this trainer. OR rank 7 is involved in some way. I've yet to track that down. We'll assume it is and say that the minimum attack of the trainer is 19. Which is important, because....

Attacking and defending actually seems to just be a straight up subtraction. A random number between 0 and your attack minus a random number between 0 and their defense. negative numbers(divided by two) are ripostes. So, for this situation what you need is to consistently have defense rolls that are higher than any attack roll. Tom's attack-Fred's defense came out in a range of -14 to 1(a range of 15), and Fred's attack-Tom's defense came out to -26 to 13(a range of 39)

Because of this, even with the minimum attack, with defense bonuses cancelling out stamina losses(let's say), Tom's attack SHOULD have broken through 19% of the time(50 vs 19 has a 31/50 chance of ALWAYS defending, while after that it's a 50/50). What actually happened was that Tom broke through 3/95 times(3%), while Fred broke through 9/85 times(10%)

With 26 attack and 50 defense, Tom would have to have 130 defense and 3 attack to make this the most likely outcome.
Since fred was exhausted though, they'd actually have 5.2 attack and 10 defense unmodified
For this to be the most likely outcome tom would need 26 defense and...well....

Tom's defense is easy enough. 26 is well within reason, and if it weren't for the extra hp Tom could have up to 57 defense, which allows Fred to have only 12 attack and still get through 10% of the time. Fred's riposte rate is difficult to explain though.

Now, assuming Tom has the minimum attack(19), Fred would need 158 defense to make this the most likely outcome.
With Fred having 50 defense and Tom having 19 attack, Fred SHOULD have an 81% riposte rate. The chance of successfully riposteing 92 times with this rate is....negligible. 5 times in a row is a 35% chance, 10 times in a row for a 12% chance, a 1% chance at 20 times in a row....it's just not happening.Also, Fred never did more than 7 damage(14 roll over) on a riposte. Which means Fred never rolled higher than a 34 on defense at most, and Tom could never roll higher than a 52. Both of these are entirely reasonable, but the probability doesn't match up...hehe...hehehehehehehehe


 
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Maniak
 Monday, June 20 2011 @ 09:37 PM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
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Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 298

That's not a bad post, and certainly not something to hide behind small text. To answer one of your questions/uncertainties, ranks don't apply to masters.


http://maniak.cu.cc/
 
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