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Hairy Mary
 Thursday, July 14 2011 @ 11:30 PM UTC  
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So what about something like, for each player, at new day there are say twenty rooms chosen randomly out of a grand list of all possible rooms that have been approved for card yielding purposes. These are where cards might be found. A player won't ever find more then the current normal amount, but those are places where they'll find a card if they go there, and if they haven't yet filled their daily quota. The twenty is just a number plucked out of the air, make it a small proportion of the total number of rooms on the list.

Maybe weight various rooms so that cards are more likely to appear far away from outposts rather than right next to them, or better, pick which squares they may appear on, and then which room in which dwelling on that square, otherwise the numbers may get distorted simply because there are more dwellings close to outposts. This would also make it easier to ensure that no one square gets more than one card a day (says the man who knows sweet Fanny Adams about programing.) This way, you could happily include every room in the Bingo Hall if you so wanted.

Also, at the moment, you can often pick up two cards a day. Occasionally more, occasionally none at all. Since there are to my knowledge at least two dwellings right next to outposts with two card pick ups each in them, this by itself makes card collecting too easy. Maybe change this so that you usually find only one, and occasionally two or none.

Probably, however you make card collecting, in time people will work it out, work out a way that works for them, and turn it into a routine. This seems to me to be pretty much inevitable.

As Dizzy said, finding a card drop off in your own dwelling is pretty cool. When Unfairlady and I found one in the Mansions we were both dead chuffed.


 
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Daedalus
 Friday, July 15 2011 @ 12:45 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine


I'd like to hear some feedback about what would be an ideal range that would make a rail pass really worth something.



Dunno if it will help or not ...

1. I stopped actively collecting cards because I was told that going to dwellings solely and specifically to collect cards was contrary to the intent of the way that they were being distributed. With very rare exception* I now only get cards from random findings during travel.

2. My usage of trains then adjusted to the rate at which I find enough cards to generate a pass. To the best of my recollection I have less than half a dozen of either cards or passes in hand, and it's been that way for months now.

3. I don't 'give a rats' if somebody has pointlessly hoarded, or uses, a vast number of cards or passes. Does it have any direct effect on my game experience?

4. I'm not clear on what it is that's a problem to be addressed. Is the trains system being over, or under, utilised? If it's under utilisation, make it 'cheaper'. If it's over utilisation, make it more 'expensive'. If it's just a concern that some players are hoarding or over-using cards/passes, then apply a maximum that the wallet can hold. (I'd suggest that you be wary of over-thinking the situation.)

Just rambling, really.

D.


*There is one dwelling that I visit occasionally out of whimsical nostalgia. Pursuant to point 1., I'd go there more often if there it wasn't a card point.


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Count Sessine
 Friday, July 15 2011 @ 07:16 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Daedalus

Quote by: Count+Sessine


I'd like to hear some feedback about what would be an ideal range that would make a rail pass really worth something.



Dunno if it will help or not ...

1. I stopped actively collecting cards because I was told that going to dwellings solely and specifically to collect cards was contrary to the intent of the way that they were being distributed. With very rare exception* I now only get cards from random findings during travel.

2. My usage of trains then adjusted to the rate at which I find enough cards to generate a pass. To the best of my recollection I have less than half a dozen of either cards or passes in hand, and it's been that way for months now.

3. I don't 'give a rats' if somebody has pointlessly hoarded, or uses, a vast number of cards or passes. Does it have any direct effect on my game experience?

4. I'm not clear on what it is that's a problem to be addressed. Is the trains system being over, or under, utilised? If it's under utilisation, make it 'cheaper'. If it's over utilisation, make it more 'expensive'. If it's just a concern that some players are hoarding or over-using cards/passes, then apply a maximum that the wallet can hold. (I'd suggest that you be wary of over-thinking the situation.)

Just rambling, really.

D.


*There is one dwelling that I visit occasionally out of whimsical nostalgia. Pursuant to point 1., I'd go there more often if there it wasn't a card point.

First, your point 4: The problem? In three words -- not fun enough.

Trains will have to go through a major rewrite to work in the new Places system. This is an opportunity to make them more fun, taking into account how the current version is, and is not, working well. Taking your other points in order...

1. The intent was certainly to get people poking curiously into dwellings to collect cards. Trouble is, that was fun for maybe... two weeks? while folks excitedly worked out where the card drops were. Then it stopped being interesting, because the mechanism was too simple and predictable. It was, I have to say, as interesting as I could make it given the Labs framework I had to work in, but that limitation is now being removed, and I hope it will now be possible to make the card gathering process much more entertaining.

2. Your experience is an example of underutilisation through voluntary (and very polite) self-limitation. I hope that once card-gathering has become a game rather than a boring, too-easy routine, you will no longer feel obliged to avoid favourite places.

3. 'Pointless hoarding' doesn't have any effect on other players. The way I see it, it's an issue with the game experience of those who are collecting. Watching a number get bigger by doing something easy every day is... well, whenever that's possible in a game, some people will feel obliged to do it. (**raises hand**) There's no sense of achievement, though, unless the game provides obstacles. And... come to think of it, there also needs to be some demonstrable measure of progress... so thank you for raising this point.

The card-predators will exist. (Feel perfectly free to hate them!) However, when Matthew sadly has most of those 1322 passes stolen, he should at the very least get a medal out of it!

It will be possible, though difficult, to win the encounters. Maybe there's also room for a Hall of Fame page -- I'll have to think about how that should work... Perhaps a HoF for how often a player has tangled with each of the predators, and won.


 
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Gryph
 Friday, July 15 2011 @ 08:05 PM UTC  
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From someone who's been trying to figure out what trains even ARE... I've got no idea what they, no idea what they are used for, and no idea how to figure it out. Is it something that's only for characters with more drive kills, or what? Is it just a cheaper/quicker way to get between locations than walking/one-shot-teleporters?

At the very least, how could I find out more about them?


 
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Sonny
 Friday, July 15 2011 @ 09:16 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine


- For technical reasons, I can't track the age of a particular card or pass. There'll be no cards crumbling, or passes expiring. This is not to guarantee that odd things won't occasionally happen inside an overloaded card case.

- The card/pass predators won't take every last one of a player's cards or passes. They'll miss something in a secret pocket, drop a few while fleeing, that sort of thing, and they won't bother people who have only a small number. People who have built up enormous collections aren't going to keep them, sorry, because that's gotten way out of balance, and long ago stopped being fun... but I will try to make the process of losing that collection entertaining.



I have to agree with Daedalus that we shouldn't overthink things.
Maniak's idea of passes costing more cards seems like a good idea, as well as a limit on how many passes you can hold with a joker and without.

While I might cope with a predator taking one or two cards if I hold too many, loosing hard earned passes is something I just can't agree with.
After all I put at least some effort into getting the cards and there really should be a bit of reliability in a game. If my passes can be taken away, then, as someone mentioned before, it's more like a punishment for collecting and saving cards and passes, and not fun at all!

I can only speak for myself, but I still value the first class passes and think before using them. I, too, rather walk than use a pass if I'm not carrying building equipment, or looking for the drive. Else I'm mostly walking (or rather riding) around the island. Saving them for worst case scenarios or something^^

What would be really neat is the possibility of gifting passes and I don't think it would favour hoarding. So if there are going to be predators stealing things (which I really, really hope won't happen), then it would be nice to be able to give the surplus passes away before they come after them.


Summary:
I would prefer the easy way out: Limiting the number of cards and/or passes one person can hold, and making at least the first class passes more expensive, in addition to maybe reducing the drop chance for cards.

And imo only when this doesn't work we should think about other ways of balancing.


 
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Sneaky
 Saturday, July 16 2011 @ 12:35 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Gryph

From someone who's been trying to figure out what trains even ARE... I've got no idea what they, no idea what they are used for, and no idea how to figure it out. Is it something that's only for characters with more drive kills, or what? Is it just a cheaper/quicker way to get between locations than walking/one-shot-teleporters?

At the very least, how could I find out more about them?



Okay. For this, you're gonna want at least ten cigarettes. You do not have to do any particular amount of drive kills to do it.

You'll want to Travel to Improbable Central, or more specifically, 1 square to the east of it. Enter the Grand Concourse East dwelling, cycling back and forth between its two rooms until you bump into the peddler. (It may take a little while.) With the aforementioned ten cigarettes, buy his leather card case, then you can begin finding playing cards.

Playing cards (different from the cards Jokers may use in combat) are stowed in the leather card case. Get five of any variety collected at once and next Game Day, you'll wake up with a new rail pass. For having pairs of any specific card, you'll gain extra passes.

Dwellings like Grand Concourse East, Main Street Station (right outside NewHome), and Necropolis Station (right outside New Pittsburgh) are where you'll be able to board the train once you have a rail pass. Finally answering your question, the rail pass (once activated) allows you to port instantly between these Dwelling-stations.

--- And if you got all that... ---

You may notice messages each New Day that you either feel very lucky (you can find four cards that day; that's the maximum) or something seems off-kilter (you won't find /any/ cards). No matter what your day limit is, you can't pick up more than 5 cards at a time.

An exception to this rule is if you find a Joker! card. This card allows you to collect cards infinitely (over time). The New Days will stop giving you rail passes automatically, however. You'll have to take the cards into a station and trade them all in at once when you're ready.

If you don't see the peddler at all when you have exactly ten cigarettes, you /may/ want to collect one more, then return.


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Matthew
 Saturday, July 16 2011 @ 03:16 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Watching a number get bigger by doing something easy every day is... well, whenever that's possible in a game, some people will feel obliged to do it. (**raises hand**)



This is literally the only reason I still DK.

So, you know, that has a lot of merit.


 
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Daedalus
 Saturday, July 16 2011 @ 07:36 AM UTC  
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Sessine, thanks for your as always clear, helpful and patient clarification of the issues.

It does seem to boil down to your succinct observation:

Quote by: Count+Sessine The problem? In three words -- not fun enough.


The HoF/medal idea would appear to have some merit, if it's for passes used rather than held, as a way to reduce the motive to hoard same. Bear in mind though that this will have the corollary effect of increasing the motive to collect (but not hoard) cards. This of course may not be a problem, but is it the solution? I'd probably vote for a medal over HoF, unless HoF is much easier to implement. Why? Because the HoF is an open-ended competition, and it can be off-putting to new arrivals to see huuuge scores by veterans. "I'll never catch up, so why bother starting?"(a la Diemos' Hats HoF) The medal is a simple bench-mark. "Yeah, I can do that, and then I'll be in the Club."

More significant to my way of thinking is the low uptake by new arrivals. The figures that you provide at the head of this thread surprised me. Over 3000 (unique?) logins per month and only some 500 odd* have wallets? That is a surprise. So ... perhaps a train-consciousness-raising device for new arrivals? I can't think of any that don't require (some one else to do) An Crap Load of work, but the 'off the top of my head' thoughts are one or more of:

1. Mention of the trains in the induction text/s
2. A free standard ticket provided by Corporal Punishment in Basic Training (with a brief explanation of its use.)
3. A free standard ticket provided by Mr Stern at the start of the Museum quest (with a brief explanation of its use.)
4. An Information Leaflet (link) about trains in, say, the Council Offices. (Perhaps in the guise of a Schedule/Timetable?**).

The latter 2 are possibly the best of these options, in that they avoid heaping yet more info on very new arrivals, and also avoids pointlessly giving passes out to (some of the) one-time-visitors.

From the viewpoint of the potential passenger, the major consideration about using trains will always be a cost/benefit analysis. The benefit, as you point out, may be more than just a mode of travel. Fun is a benefit.

Anyway, I'm rambling. (How unusual!) I really only sat down to say thanks for the explanation. But look ... the RL chore that I was procrastinating about doing is now no longer do-able today, so I can leave it till tomorrow. (Another win for avoidance strategies!) So I'll trail off rather vaguely and get out of your way.

To-rah.

D.


*No, really, some of us are just odd. Laughing Out Loud
** I wasn't thinking of this as a real and binding timetable, but there was discussion earlier in the thread about the 'improbability' of trains always being available exactly when the passenger arrives, so ... perhaps? (Sounds like An Very Large Crap Load of coding to me, though.)


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Zolotisty
 Saturday, July 16 2011 @ 11:09 AM UTC  
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Sadly, gang, a Medal would be non-trivial to implement -- there's art for over 200, and you've not seen them implemented in the game because the Medals system, too, needs to be rewritten. Implementation for the Emily Bundle medal was a bit different. So while it's a nice idea... it's a nice idea that's not happening any time soon. Confused


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Count Sessine
 Saturday, July 16 2011 @ 03:52 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Zolotisty

Sadly, gang, a Medal would be non-trivial to implement -- there's art for over 200, and you've not seen them implemented in the game because the Medals system, too, needs to be rewritten. Implementation for the Emily Bundle medal was a bit different. So while it's a nice idea... it's a nice idea that's not happening any time soon. Confused

Ah. I see. Pity, that.

Well then, perhaps something can be done with Mementos.

I will put a comment in the code as a marker to show where a medal could be given if the Medals system ever does get redone.


 
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dizzyizzy
 Saturday, July 16 2011 @ 08:34 PM UTC  
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Here's something that can change right this second, places or no: Can Corporal Punishment tell rookies about the trains?


 
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Gryph
 Saturday, July 16 2011 @ 10:35 PM UTC  
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Okay, so I think I understand what it is now. I still don't really get it though. It sounds like a whole lot of work to save a bit of money on teleporters or a few rounds of combat from walking. I guess it... might be useful if you're on a high rank or something?


 
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Hairy Mary
 Saturday, July 16 2011 @ 11:27 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Gryph

Okay, so I think I understand what it is now. I still don't really get it though. It sounds like a whole lot of work to save a bit of money on teleporters or a few rounds of combat from walking. I guess it... might be useful if you're on a high rank or something?



Talking personally, it's not so much the game aspect of trains, rather the feel of them, as an aspect of the Island. But then I've never been much of a game player, always more of a role player myself.


 
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dizzyizzy
 Sunday, July 17 2011 @ 05:18 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Gryph

Okay, so I think I understand what it is now. I still don't really get it though. It sounds like a whole lot of work to save a bit of money on teleporters or a few rounds of combat from walking. I guess it... might be useful if you're on a high rank or something?



Actually, the problem is that it's not much work at all...

And yes, you're right, they are very, very useful on higher ranks. They're also great for construction, and my personal favorite sport, titan hunting.


 
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Raidur
 Friday, September 23 2011 @ 11:27 PM UTC  
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Truthfully, the only time I use my passes are for Building and Titan hunting, otherwise they are useless for me as travel doesn't take all that much stamina, and I rarely use all my chronos anyway. For that matter, right now I can't effectively titan hunt because I'd have to use pretty much all my stamina to get the buffs I prefer before hitting one, and OST's are rather expensive when starting out at level 1. As for the decay of passes, well, that is a good idea in my opinion, and expanding where people can get them also is a good one. I've always found it a bit.. well, odd, that pretty much all the places that one can get cards... belong to one particular clan's members. Thats always sat a bit wrong with me, especially as I've not seen any way to suggest buildings for a card drop or something. Perhaps the idea would be to have a list of locations, but not have them spawn a card every day, that way, even once people figure out all the current locations, they still have to search for a card?

I dunno if I've made any sense, but theres 2 cents worth.

I do look forward to the return of the trains though. I'm missing my titan hunting and without them.. well, I think I'd need 20 more dk's to be effective at it again.


 
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Zolotisty
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 12:05 AM UTC  
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As a particular clan leader, Raidur, that detail always troubled me too.


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Count Sessine
 Saturday, September 24 2011 @ 12:17 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Raidur

Truthfully, the only time I use my passes are for Building and Titan hunting, otherwise they are useless for me as travel doesn't take all that much stamina, and I rarely use all my chronos anyway. For that matter, right now I can't effectively titan hunt because I'd have to use pretty much all my stamina to get the buffs I prefer before hitting one, and OST's are rather expensive when starting out at level 1. As for the decay of passes, well, that is a good idea in my opinion, and expanding where people can get them also is a good one. I've always found it a bit.. well, odd, that pretty much all the places that one can get cards... belong to one particular clan's members. Thats always sat a bit wrong with me, especially as I've not seen any way to suggest buildings for a card drop or something. Perhaps the idea would be to have a list of locations, but not have them spawn a card every day, that way, even once people figure out all the current locations, they still have to search for a card?

I dunno if I've made any sense, but theres 2 cents worth.

I do look forward to the return of the trains though. I'm missing my titan hunting and without them.. well, I think I'd need 20 more dk's to be effective at it again.

Raidur, because of the way the trains hooked into the old dwellings code using the Labs interface, I was forced to hard-code the locations. I had no option to add new locations after submitting the modules to CMJ. Since I was writing the code, I tromped the map looking at everything, and I picked the card drops. I picked them to be, "See, look at this here! Isn't this a funny / scary / beautiful / well-written dwelling?" from the dwellings that existed at the time I was writing. I didn't put any in places that seemed to be private residences, or that were sometimes locked. Many wonderful creations that came along later had to go ignored because I had no way to update the code to include them.

DICE is a clan of writers, and they all got into writing dwellings early, in a big way, so it's no surprise that quite a few of their dwellings caught my eye -- but it is by no means true that all the 37 card drops were in DICE-created dwellings. I am an equal-opportunity admirer of good writing from any source. There were several in the Bingo Hall, and surely you visited the Anarchy Annex, the Jackalope, the Crow Bar, Castle Quagmire, The Timepiece, the Weather Station, The Hangar, Persepolis, The Smoking Windmill, and McCleod's Tavern, to name a few.

I'm glad you found the trains useful. They'll be gone for a while. When they come back, they'll be different.


 
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tehdave
 Monday, September 26 2011 @ 05:12 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

Raidur, because of the way the trains hooked into the old dwellings code using the Labs interface, I was forced to hard-code the locations. I had no option to add new locations after submitting the modules to CMJ. Since I was writing the code, I tromped the map looking at everything, and I picked the card drops. I picked them to be, "See, look at this here! Isn't this a funny / scary / beautiful / well-written dwelling?" from the dwellings that existed at the time I was writing. I didn't put any in places that seemed to be private residences, or that were sometimes locked. Many wonderful creations that came along later had to go ignored because I had no way to update the code to include them.
I'm glad you found the trains useful. They'll be gone for a while. When they come back, they'll be different.



re: bold: I always wondered why Hendrix never got a card Razz

In other news, I mostly miss trains for Building and for Titan Hunting...those were the 2 things I mostly used trains for. Well, that and running around on speedruns. As a gameplayer, I must say that Trains helped almost to the point of trivializing certain things like, oh...fight in CC404 for my quest monster, then pop a train over to P-ville for some steak, then back to CC404 to continue questing. Seriously helped the idea of fighting there, though, especially with the station right on top of the outpost.

Maybe, to address Matthew's concern of a newbie running around with stone and getting dropped off in the ocean by random chance...the first {1-3} time{s} you take a train in a gameday, you're much more likely to get where you're going, as opposed to taking the train all over creation, in which case the conductor might get sick of you and either demand a new rail pass or kick you off the train mid-travel somewhere. That way there's still the stability of having the trains go where you need them to, but if you start abusing them every gameday you used a pass (like I used to, tbh) then there's Consequences...

Edit: right, square brackets are BB code tags...


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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dizzyizzy
 Monday, September 26 2011 @ 05:30 PM UTC  
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Trains, for me, helped a lot with fighting and titans, as Dave said, but, more importantly, they helped with RP. Without trains, I cannot be as involved in the community as I'd like while still doing gameplay at a level that keeps it at least a little interesting. I'm a bit apprehensive of how trains are going to come back. For now, I've nerfed the DK ranks I'm doing, but I don't want to stay like that. If I can't have a steady, reliable, daily supply of rail passes, what do I choose? Do I cut out RP, or quit gameplay? I'm not going to stick to R5's, that's pointless, but what's the point of playing at all if I'm not in the community as well?

tl;dr: Please don't cut out the huge stacks of rail passes, or, if you do, make passes easy as hell to get.


 
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Matthew
 Tuesday, September 27 2011 @ 12:49 AM UTC  
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Quote by: tehdave

Maybe, to address Matthew's concern of a newbie running around with stone and getting dropped off in the ocean by random chance...the first {1-3} time{s} you take a train in a gameday, you're much more likely to get where you're going, as opposed to taking the train all over creation, in which case the conductor might get sick of you and either demand a new rail pass or kick you off the train mid-travel somewhere. That way there's still the stability of having the trains go where you need them to, but if you start abusing them every gameday you used a pass (like I used to, tbh) then there's Consequences...



That's a good idea, but I'd go even further and say that the first 3 or so trips should be definite, with no chance of getting dropped off any place where you don't need to go. Three in particular is a good number; it lets you get to Pleasantville with the first trip, then to where ever you're mining/logging with the second, then back to your dwelling with the last. After that, I do like the idea of subsequent trips building a risk where the stationmaster might demand more passes to make up for your 'abuse of the system', the card thief coming after you, possible muggers taking 25% of your current on-hand req, whatever.

Personal experience: I ate three steaks and a builder's brew and went nuts on the CC404 square. I mined like 400 stone or so, then I hit the train to drop it off at my dwelling. Because the game decided to be Improbable! isn't that HILARIOUS!!! it dropped me off at the Abandoned Waystation, far enough away from my dwelling so as to be meaningless with 400+ stone, and completely fucked over. This was not fun. Rather, it made me grit my teeth and vaguely entertain putting my first through my monitor. It did not add anything to my gameplay experience, it took away. More importantly, it wasted my money (that used to buy the brew) and made me seriously reconsider buying/using another one if bullshit random chance could rob me of the privilege I payed for.

So yeah, no more of that. I don't mean to sound SOOOO ANGRY but I strongly advocate the new train system not having any of that or at the very least giving you a few freebie trips after you use ticket.


 
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