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 The "player" update to Banter
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Kew
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 11:56 AM UTC  
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I test my rollover in banter, and I adore being able to see someone else's rollover in banter. There are a lot of creative ones! With my current work schedule, I probably wouldn't get to see a lot of them without banter. That's not something that a testing function would fix, even though that would lovely.

This is a good point I really hadn't considered. I would miss this, I think. I can see both the pros and cons of removing rollovers, and maybe we should wait and see if the ____'s player changes things before taking any further steps?

The addition of "-'s player" reminds us that these are indeed people with whom we are conversing--the majority of them strangers to us. Therefore, when a new arrival enters, they will be immediately informed that they are in a room full of strangers. Add to that the addition of the global nature of banter, and there will be a slew of talk between a wide distribution of people, none of whom are familiar.

I suppose I've always been under the impression that everyone already knows this? The internet is full of strangers, yes, and getting to know one another and making new friends is part of the fun of games like this. I think all this does is remind players that there are real people behind the characters and that the character may not be a mirror image thereof. (Which in my case, I am immensely grateful for.)

In addition to that, the lengthening of the textbar causes additional lines to be created where they might have been shorter previously, which can cause a jagged appearance that becomes difficult to read as the scrolling length increases--as with the relatively common 'too long; didn't read' mindset propogating amongst our society.

If one word really makes something too long for someone to read, they probably weren't going to read it anyway, and I sort of question why they're playing a text-based game.


My two cents on the whole thing: I think this is needed. For a long time now, I haven't really played Kew the way I used to because for so many there is very little separation between character and player. With the prevailing sexual atmosphere in Banter, I haven't felt comfortable playing Kew the way she is, for fear that if she does decide to go off with someone for a good time, I'll be expected to write it all out. I don't particularly like ERP. And that is an awkward conversation to have. I am perfectly content to just let her have her fun off screen.

This mood in Banter has made me feel like all anyone is on Island for is to cyber, and since I'm not into that, I have felt very much less inclined to roleplay with new people. I feel like a lot of people coming to the Island see Banter and take away the same message, and it really is time that's cleaned up.


Wouldn't it be loverly?
 
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Lea.wolfsfeld
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 05:47 PM UTC  
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Personally, I don't mind the inclusion of ____'s Player. It really does not affect me all that much so I don't have that much to say against it. It might help to remind people that they are speaking and acting as themselves, though I doubt its really going to have that much effect. Its going to become little more than static in the background and people will behave as they usually do.

In response to the idea of rollovers in banter I have mixed feelings. Perhaps instead of removing it, perhaps a reduced one that does not include pictures for the banter rollover? Also, I think that there should be a way to preview the rollover in preferences. It would take away the need to test it in banter or even navigate away from the page.

But yeah, I don't think the ___'s Player is going to have that much effect on its own and further action is likely going to be needed. I hope I am wrong on this. I really do as I somewhat fear how the crowd will react to further change.


 
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rbead
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 08:31 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Kew

This mood in Banter has made me feel like all anyone is on Island for is to cyber.


Listen, I know this is A Thing. It's been A Thing that people have issues with and/or struggle with for ages. Yeah, a lot of people do that, but there's also a lot of people who don't; there are even those who do enjoy it cooperating with those who don't and sticking their characters together. That's a person to person decision.

Furthermore- absolutely, Banter (was/is/had been/is becoming less of) a cuddlefest. Until ...about now, people would greet me via doggy pile a lot. I'm okay with that; I'm also okay with the fact that other people aren't. The main problem is that cuddle-positive behavior is much more visible than cuddle-negative (thing gram positive and gram negative here, I'm not laying judgement at ALL on the good/bad status of...whatever this phenomenon is). This introduces the main issue at hand: If there is cuddling, people are going to see it. That's just how it is.

I have to be honest here and say that I'm a bit freaked out that I'll step over the line, in terms of not only this change but all of the recent changes in general. It was normal for me, now it's not, and I'll have to adjust to it. That doesn't mean anyone's good or bad, that's just how it is. I have enjoyed immersing myself in the soup of ideas and philosophies thus far, though, and part of what I like about the Island is not having to police my own imagination. (Mind, I say imagination, not behavior: being nice is something everyone has to do on their own, generally speaking.) When things get freaky in Banter it scares me, and I'm afraid that the backlash might lose us some folks. Sure, that pruning could be seen as a reasonable expense, but there are some folks I'd rather not lose, and some of those folks already have rustled jimmies. I'm doing my part to unfluff those feathers, but I can't fix everything, and I hope we don't wind up with a mass exodus. That's the other shoe I've been waiting to fall, and I suspect it'll be a knot in my stomach for some time to come.

On another note: Rucin had some good points about isolation and non-isolation. This might wind up down the lines of an 'ignore' function, which is something people have been asking after for a long time. Heck, it might even work. Ultimately, it's up to Dan. His game, his rules.


 
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RP Whistle
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 10:29 PM UTC  
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Quote by: rbead

I have to be honest here and say that I'm a bit freaked out that I'll step over the line, in terms of not only this change but all of the recent changes in general. It was normal for me, now it's not, and I'll have to adjust to it. That doesn't mean anyone's good or bad, that's just how it is. I have enjoyed immersing myself in the soup of ideas and philosophies thus far, though, and part of what I like about the Island is not having to police my own imagination. (Mind, I say imagination, not behavior: being nice is something everyone has to do on their own, generally speaking.) When things get freaky in Banter it scares me, and I'm afraid that the backlash might lose us some folks. Sure, that pruning could be seen as a reasonable expense, but there are some folks I'd rather not lose, and some of those folks already have rustled jimmies. I'm doing my part to unfluff those feathers, but I can't fix everything, and I hope we don't wind up with a mass exodus. That's the other shoe I've been waiting to fall, and I suspect it'll be a knot in my stomach for some time to come.

On another note: Rucin had some good points about isolation and non-isolation. This might wind up down the lines of an 'ignore' function, which is something people have been asking after for a long time. Heck, it might even work. Ultimately, it's up to Dan. His game, his rules.



This is something the Moderation staff has had a lot of discussion about for quite some time. We don't want to lose any players, whether they've been here one hour or over half a decade. Our goal is not to take the fun out of Banter or make people feel like they can't be themselves in Banter. The "player" addition, if anything, certainly addresses the latter. The first thing I thought when I logged in and saw everyone's name in Banter followed by "player" was "Wow, that's a really great idea! I'm probably going to forget to do it, though, and everyone's going to wonder why I didn't get the memo." And I didn't: I thought everyone in Banter was manually adding it to make the distinction. My second thought was a mental head slap. Still, I look at it as a vital reminder that there are people behind the characters. That's a very visible distinction that should be drawn in Banter, which for the longest time has been viewed a place without boundaries.

That is where the bulk of the problem lies, and it's not any one person. It's not even any one specific behavior. Banter is a culture. It is the entirety of the Improbable Island community, and everything you post there creates a culture. And that culture is available to anyone 24/7. Banter is, and has the potential to be, one of the best forums for ensuring the Improbable Island Community thrives and grows. It's where new players can feel welcome, people can make friends both in game and out. People find partners for life here. Banter brings the entire community together, and we all are a part of that culture. That said, Banter Culture has seemed to be defined as "anything goes" at times. And that might be fun for people participating in that culture, but not so much for others.

Consider this: a group of players decide to have a raunchy conversation trying to cram every single innuendo you can think of into Global Banter in a 30 minute window. In those 30 minutes, no one complains. In a 24 hour day, it seems like a drop in the bucket. But let's say one person joins II for the first time and the first thing they're greeted with is NewHome and Banter. One eye shift to the right and they think to themselves "wow, everybody here is immature" and decides to try another game. Okay, that kind of sucks. Now imagine 5 people join the game in a half hour period. Or 10. Or 15. Let's say out of that 5-15, 8 come to the same conclusion. Consider all the players who join II and don't stick around for more than a week. Maybe it's Banter Culture that doesn't appeal to them. Maybe they just don't like the game or got busy with school or work. The question I pose is this: which of those two can we actually help to prevent?

I think Rucin has a valid point, especially in terms of Banter as a culture: we want to be respectful of the culture and not isolate players from each other. That said, I don't think Local Outpost Banter is the solution. That would be more isolating. Right now I'm in Kittania hunting a quest monster, but that doesn't mean I'm there for belly rubs. (I don't think you want to rub my belly.) Global Banter is meant to bring us all together on a personal level. My suggestion for creating a healthy Banter Culture is simple and something everyone can do: treat Global Banter like a Public Outpost. Because it is, and one of the biggest and most important ones we have. We don't need a laundry list of rules of what you can and can't do in an Outpost, because they're ultimately ruled by common sense. Before you hit enter, just take a moment and ask yourself: if someone were to see what I just posted in Banter, what would this say about our culture?


 
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Kew
 Tuesday, April 15 2014 @ 11:43 PM UTC  
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Quote by: rbead

Listen, I know this is A Thing. It's been A Thing that people have issues with and/or struggle with for ages. Yeah, a lot of people do that, but there's also a lot of people who don't; there are even those who do enjoy it cooperating with those who don't and sticking their characters together. That's a person to person decision.


Oh, jeez, I'm sorry. I didn't mean at all to imply there's anything wrong with the ERP. It's absolutely a personal thing, just not my cuppa.

Quote by: RP Whistle

Right now I'm in Kittania hunting a quest monster, but that doesn't mean I'm there for belly rubs. (I don't think you want to rub my belly.)


But it's so furry! Big Grin


Wouldn't it be loverly?
 
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dizzyizzy
 Wednesday, April 16 2014 @ 02:04 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Kew
My two cents on the whole thing: I think this is needed. For a long time now, I haven't really played Kew the way I used to because for so many there is very little separation between character and player. With the prevailing sexual atmosphere in Banter, I haven't felt comfortable playing Kew the way she is, for fear that if she does decide to go off with someone for a good time, I'll be expected to write it all out. I don't particularly like ERP. And that is an awkward conversation to have. I am perfectly content to just let her have her fun off screen.

This mood in Banter has made me feel like all anyone is on Island for is to cyber, and since I'm not into that, I have felt very much less inclined to roleplay with new people. I feel like a lot of people coming to the Island see Banter and take away the same message, and it really is time that's cleaned up.[/p]


Oddly, despite the conduct in banter, the actual ERP on the island is in a better state than it has been in a while.

It's surprising to most people that despite mostly running Byte's place, I ERP very little, and only with a select couple people. Since I am at Byte's place so often, I turn people down fairly regularly, and nobody's gotten indignant in a long time. It used to happen very often, that people would pressure me, but recently, things have shifted for the better. I've even had one person ask me in banter if it was okay to escalate things so I could say "no" there instead of having to suddenly awkwardly edge my way out of story. There is far more civility in story matters than there is in banter, in my recent experience, for whatever reason, and it's a Very Good Thing.

Of course now that I've said this you're going to immediately find the one bad egg. Tell a mod.


 
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Rucin
 Wednesday, April 16 2014 @ 03:25 AM UTC  
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Quote by: RP Whistle

Right now I'm in Kittania hunting a quest monster, but that doesn't mean I'm there for belly rubs. (I don't think you want to rub my belly.)


But it's so furry! Big Grin
[/p][/QUOTE]
Well, as a counterpoint to this in particular: Everything we do is ultimately voluntary. You don't actually have to read what's written in a particular place; and having a general typeset for what occurs in a particular location is an excellent resource to make informed decisions on what it is that you want to look at or avoid looking at. You can hunt the jungles of kittania without engrossing yourself in the local culture, after all.

As an aside that can be made a relevant example to teh topic, I was somewhat surprised at the negativity of Kew's post; but her response to another poster keyed me in that this was unintentional on her side: I was actually misinterpreting her intentions. that's a constant challenge on the internet for all of us (though some more than others): misinterpreting the actual meaning behind what we read. Banter has a tendency to move so quickly that a degree of defining context is lost, even amongst those things that would be discouraged in any context. But this is a part of the nature of the internet, and cannot be changed without rewiring the zeitgeist of human nature.
I've taken my personal mindset and rewritten it to a calm, detached nature that excels at rational analysis, but suffer the drawbacks of often coming across as cold, insensitive, rude, or even cruel in personal interactions. The point being, we're all different people; we're all different types of people. We can't stop ourselves from feeling what we feel in certain situations, but through a mutual understanding we can become comfortable with the way things are with one another. This is just a process that takes time and acceptance, and every overhaul to the layout of the system itself causes a sight setback in reaching the final goal of community.


 
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Svergon
 Wednesday, April 16 2014 @ 03:52 AM UTC  
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I am in favor of this change, it seems like a sensible way to make the divide between banter and story more self evident. I doubt it'll have much of a long term impact on the 'culture' of banter, but even if all it does is make things a little clearer for the occasional rookie then it seems worthwhile to me.


 
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Denealus
 Wednesday, April 16 2014 @ 05:34 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Rucin


The addition of "-'s player" reminds us that these are indeed people with whom we are conversing--the majority of them strangers to us. Therefore, when a new arrival enters, they will be immediately informed that they are in a room full of strangers....

A reason I have heard some claim is that it is also intended to discourage roleplay in the banter channel. But I am concerned of this, as it previously provided a way for interaction that was not-quite in character but still permitted people to familiarize themselves with the types of interaction. This can be essential in cases where one's characters are on bad terms with one another, but the persons still wish to interact in a non-personal manner. I admit that this could be solved by relocating to a personal enclosure, but this would necessitate being removed from the island at large.
.



I'm sorry, Rucin. But its statements like this that are exactly why I think this update is needed. Or at least a change in mentality.

I'm firmly of the opinion that the problem isn't the snugglepiles. The snugglepiles are the symptom. The much larger threat is that people don't have very good IC/OOC boundaries. People get into relationships in the Island (which granted, can extend to off-Island relationships in a lovely manner) and have some expectation that those relationships must extend into real life, get jealous when seeing characters with other characters, show affection towards other characters, etc. etc. People forget that there's actual people who aren'tI've run into this a lot and it just fires up my creeper senses something awful.

I also disagree with everyone being strangers. We aren't a room of strangers. We're still the same people. I have the gchat of many of the people here on Island, have met a few of them, and they're all wonderful people. And that's the thing. They're not their characters. We can talk about their characters. And I get to appreciate their character. Sometimes people on the internet forget that there are real people behind the characters, the avatars, as a part of the community and have difficulty respecting that.

It doesn't mean you can't still be goofy and silly in Banter. It doesn't mean you can't have fun. It just means that you're at least a piece of yourself when you do it.

P.S. Kew, you not being interested in ERP is exactly one of the reasons I enjoy playing with you. And exactly one of the reasons I play Den the way I do. It may be stretching the realm of believability a bit, but it gives an easy enough out when people are insistant on trying to push Den into an ERP situation.


 
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Anonymous: Escemfer
 Wednesday, April 16 2014 @ 06:04 AM UTC  


So, I like the idea, but I agree that the execution is a little unwieldy and visually unappealing. The aesthetics wouldn't be such a problem if aesthetically-pleasing text wasn't such a big part of Island culture by now; I think the "'s player" text blends a little too much into the following text, and doesn't look like part of the "tag". As far as imperfect things go, however, I like it. Big Grin

Quote by: Denealus

So, I'm curious what people would think about keeping the "'s player" addition and removing rollovers in global banter.


This is a nifty idea. While it would take a bit of adjusting to, there was a day when we didn't have mouseover bios at all, and it wasn't a problem back then. And since the mouseovers would still be available where they're actually relevant, in Story, I don't think removing them from Banter would be a loss.

That suggestion ties really nicely into the suggestion I wanted to make, which was: hiding titles from Banter. (I see someone already objected to that, so I'm clearly not at the cutting edge of suggestions today, but hear me out.) Titles and mouseovers are the first things you see on any comment, and they're very, very character-specific. I feel like lopping the titles off of names would go a long way toward making people stop looking like buxom catgirls and more like users with screennames, and toward emphasizing a very necessary divide between players and their characters. (Though, I would miss some of the comedic and poetic titles players use (Tink yours are beautiful))

Wouldn't suggest using "'s player" AND "no mouseovers" AND "no titles" all at the same time, though. Perhaps overkill-y, there.
Quote by: Kew

This mood in Banter has made me feel like all anyone is on Island for is to cyber, and since I'm not into that, I have felt very much less inclined to roleplay with new people. I feel like a lot of people coming to the Island see Banter and take away the same message, and it really is time that's cleaned up.



Edit to excise the end of my post, because while it made sense at the time, it didn't upon rereading. However, I agree with Kew, and I am eager for a more neutral, less orgy-centric (and personal-business-centric) Banter.


 
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Omega
 Wednesday, April 16 2014 @ 11:51 AM UTC  
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B-but I usually write my mouseovers and titles specifically for Global Banter use! I'd be really sad to see them go.



In fact, with all of these things go away, chat might be better in IRC instead of the current system.


There are two secrets to success. The second one is to never reveal all your secrets.
 
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Twosocks Monkey
 Wednesday, April 16 2014 @ 01:01 PM UTC  
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Though I can see the appeal of losing the mouseovers (a lot of them are...yeah), I actually enjoy seeing them. As someone who doesn't end getting a chance to RP a lot anymore, I pretty much exclusively see people only in banter. And I like seeing new avatars and such-like.

Sure they can get silly and annoying, but it's super fun to see Shi's new work pop up, or Fish's or whatever. I like the arts! I'd be sad to lose them. I'm not likely to track people down just to see their avatar if we lose the mouseovers, so they'll just become invisible to me for the most part. (Yes I am aware I can click on a bio to see them, how likely is it that I will? Unlikely.)

As for the 's player thing, I dunno. It doesn't much matter to me. The only thing that's a little irksome is how long it is? As had been said previously, I don't really see it changing the style of banter at all, but I do think it's nice to have a clear delineation between the story and banter.

moo.

PS: I think Whistle's point about the 'culture' is the important part here, but I don't see a visual fix that will hammer that home every time someone speaks. It's more of a 'oh yeah we should think about that more often' sorta thing? Or lead by example perhaps?

PPS: I remember when we had outpost banter vs global etc. Whatever is decided I do really REALLY like having a melting pot available. It's been a very different way to meet Islanders and I've enjoyed it immensely.

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moooooooooo Visit and help me finish the monster list: goo.gl/rpBGe (Ya'll mostly know me as CLOG, fyi)
 
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Count Sessine
 Wednesday, April 16 2014 @ 02:03 PM UTC  
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As for removing mouseovers and titles... I believe the current plan is to leave the 's player tag exactly as it is for a while -- say a couple of months at least -- to see what the longer-term effect on the culture turns out to be. I personally don't expect it to be a cure-all... but it just might be a cures-quite-a-lot! If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any need for more changes.

Though I can see the appeal of losing the mouseovers (a lot of them are...yeah), I actually enjoy seeing them. As someone who doesn't end getting a chance to RP a lot anymore, I pretty much exclusively see people only in banter. And I like seeing new avatars and such-like.

Sure they can get silly and annoying, but it's super fun to see Shi's new work pop up, or Fish's or whatever. I like the arts! I'd be sad to lose them. I'm not likely to track people down just to see their avatar if we lose the mouseovers, so they'll just become invisible to me for the most part.

I'm with Rose on this point. I love the chance to see and admire new avatars, and I often get a chuckle out of titles. I don't see a problem with players being able to show off who their characters are, in Banter. All that matters, I think, is that people keep in mind that it's saying, "That's my character, that's how I appear in Story. The person you're talking with here is me."

On the aesthetic question... let me point out that gchat has no pretty colours -- it is not at all designed for roleplaying -- but it functions very well indeed for people talking to other people. Perhaps the next change, if one ever turns out to be needed (although, as I've said, nothing's happening soon, and I rather hope there won't be any need), should be to make Banter into plain, one-colour text. Keep the ability to show off your characters to your friends complete with rollover and titles, but make it visually even clearer that in this chat space, it's you speaking.


 
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RP Whistle
 Thursday, April 17 2014 @ 01:00 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Twosocks+Monkey

PS: I think Whistle's point about the 'culture' is the important part here, but I don't see a visual fix that will hammer that home every time someone speaks. It's more of a 'oh yeah we should think about that more often' sorta thing? Or lead by example perhaps?

PPS: I remember when we had outpost banter vs global etc. Whatever is decided I do really REALLY like having a melting pot available. It's been a very different way to meet Islanders and I've enjoyed it immensely.



Adding "player" to everyone's name isn't a dramatic change, but I think it can be a good reminder of the sense of community we have. I've seen people in Banter share joys in their personal life, support each other in their lows. Share interests, learn about things. I think if people used Banter as a way to build on our community and influence each other positively, that would make this place even better.

Quote by: Rucin

Well, as a counterpoint to this in particular: Everything we do is ultimately voluntary. You don't actually have to read what's written in a particular place; and having a general typeset for what occurs in a particular location is an excellent resource to make informed decisions on what it is that you want to look at or avoid looking at. You can hunt the jungles of kittania without engrossing yourself in the local culture, after all.

As an aside that can be made a relevant example to teh topic, I was somewhat surprised at the negativity of Kew's post; but her response to another poster keyed me in that this was unintentional on her side: I was actually misinterpreting her intentions. that's a constant challenge on the internet for all of us (though some more than others): misinterpreting the actual meaning behind what we read. Banter has a tendency to move so quickly that a degree of defining context is lost, even amongst those things that would be discouraged in any context. But this is a part of the nature of the internet, and cannot be changed without rewiring the zeitgeist of human nature.
I've taken my personal mindset and rewritten it to a calm, detached nature that excels at rational analysis, but suffer the drawbacks of often coming across as cold, insensitive, rude, or even cruel in personal interactions. The point being, we're all different people; we're all different types of people. We can't stop ourselves from feeling what we feel in certain situations, but through a mutual understanding we can become comfortable with the way things are with one another. This is just a process that takes time and acceptance, and every overhaul to the layout of the system itself causes a sight setback in reaching the final goal of community.



I like Two's description of Banter as a melting pot (some say a mixed salad metaphor is more apt, but that's besides the point). I can go to Kittania and not interact with the "local culture", but all that means is that I'm not participating. Just because I play a certain character doesn't mean I can't or won't talk with other players with different character types and experiences. That is where Banter comes in: everyone shares the unique experience of who they are. That's why we have a number of player races and an option to create you own. We don't want to be limited to one experience. Global culture is exactly that: a GLOBAL culture.

I absolutely agree with you that this will take time and acceptance. You said it yourself: we're all different people, different types of people and everybody feels and learns different ways. I don't think of this change as a setback, but I don't invalidate your feelings otherwise. Or anyone else's for that matter. Change and Improbable Island, when you think about it, have always been hand in hand. New features have always been added to increase player enjoyment and add more depth. The very world of Improbable Island is about a place in constant flux with infinite possibilities. Change isn't always easy, and sometimes it can be downright frightening for all of us. My solution to a complex problem is simple: ask us. If you're not sure about something? Ask. Only kinda sure about something? Ask. 99.99% sure of something, but might want to ask just to shore up that .01%? Ask ! I would rather answer 100 questions than have to step in as a Moderator to resolve a single situation that could have been avoided with a simple question. Never, ever, EVER be hesitant to ask us about anything. We volunteered for this position. We're here to help. We're here to guide. We're here to answer questions. But we can't do that if you don't ask.


 
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Denealus
 Thursday, April 17 2014 @ 01:49 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine

As for removing mouseovers and titles... I believe the current plan is to leave the 's player tag exactly as it is for a while -- say a couple of months at least -- to see what the longer-term effect on the culture turns out to be. I personally don't expect it to be a cure-all... but it just might be a cures-quite-a-lot! If that's the case, then there wouldn't be any need for more changes.



Definitely agree with this. Seeing how one thing affects the culture is an important shift.


Though I can see the appeal of losing the mouseovers (a lot of them are...yeah), I actually enjoy seeing them. As someone who doesn't end getting a chance to RP a lot anymore, I pretty much exclusively see people only in banter. And I like seeing new avatars and such-like.

Sure they can get silly and annoying, but it's super fun to see Shi's new work pop up, or Fish's or whatever. I like the arts! I'd be sad to lose them. I'm not likely to track people down just to see their avatar if we lose the mouseovers, so they'll just become invisible to me for the most part.

I'm with Rose on this point. I love the chance to see and admire new avatars, and I often get a chuckle out of titles. I don't see a problem with players being able to show off who their characters are, in Banter. All that matters, I think, is that people keep in mind that it's saying, "That's my character, that's how I appear in Story. The person you're talking with here is me."



Let me be clear, I don't have a problem with players being able to show off who their characters are either. I would be sad to see rollovers go away too and love to see new art work. I just feel that people are pretty visual. And seeing a cute fluffy avatar makes certain people treat people as that avatar. I've seen people with "cute" avatars be annoying in Banter and not stop when asked and sometimes allowed to get away with it because they're "cute." Heck, I think having less of a visual cue might decrease that.

The other option I thought of as a potential compromise, instead of eliminating rollovers altogether, is having a separate Banter rollover. One that doesn't have an avi. One you can test out the text of your character rollover (because usually people are testing titles and rollover text and less the avi themselves). One where a player can say "NEW ART! CLICK MY BIO!" to show off their new avi art. One where someone could put a little something about what they want people to know about them as a player. No instant visual cue to treat someone as a "cute thing that I just have to pet." I definitely agree with the wait-and-see mode of the current update and I'm hopeful/skeptical of how useful it's going to end up being. But it's just exploring options here.

On the other hand, if I start seeing people at least going "Oh god, I could just pet your avatar" instead of "Oh god, I could just pet you".... step in the right direction! And I'd definitely be more than happy to at least see that people are recognizing characters as characters and players as people.


 
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Trowa
 Thursday, April 17 2014 @ 03:16 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Denealus

The other option I thought of as a potential compromise, instead of eliminating rollovers altogether, is having a separate Banter rollover.


Ooooooooohhhh..!! If not sooner or later in S2, could we get this in S3 when we're all using singular "player" accounts with multiple alts under that account's belt?


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Docenspiel
 Thursday, April 17 2014 @ 12:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Denealus

The other option I thought of as a potential compromise, instead of eliminating rollovers altogether, is having a separate Banter rollover.


Ooooooooohhhh..!! If not sooner or later in S2, could we get this in S3 when we're all using singular "player" accounts with multiple alts under that account's belt?


Wasn't that the plan all along? I assumed all this was just a soft run for the eventual splitting of player and character accounts.


For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.
 
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Thomas_III
 Thursday, April 17 2014 @ 08:21 PM UTC  
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I'm of the opinion that the change is largely going to have no effect. People are going to OOC roleplay as long as there's an option to emote. Putting "'s player" next to the name isn't going to change that, because we already knew that it was OOC space. (At least, I would like to think that most of us are intelligent enough to recognize that.) So, people will still be friendly to the people that they're used to being friendly to. The only difference that may come will be from the people who decide that global isn't "for them" anymore, that abandon it for placewide or local banter (or no banter at all).

Personally, the solution that I'd offer for this is a separate banter space that fits somewhere between global and placewide, sort of an "interspace" banter that connects the Places that choose to opt into it. For instance, if I turned on the interspace banter in the Barrens, and someone in another Place puts it in theirs, then people in those two Places would be able to banter together. It would be a sort of limited global, found only in Places. Since newbies generally don't go running right out to story in Places, this would allow those of us who have been deemed "undesirable" because of our affectionate tendencies to behave normally, while outpost global would still present the public face to new people.

I would also recommend completely whitewashing the outpost global. The "'s player" can stay, but you could also remove the rollovers and titles, as has been suggested. People would still have the interspace banter if they really want to take advantage of those things. They only place where they completely won't have access would be in outposts, where global will still be the rule. Also, as I stated earlier, emotes would have to go if we're truly trying to eliminate OOC roleplay. No one's really waving at the screen when a friend comes online, after all.

Personally, I'd like to think that this wouldn't be necessary, since we're all adults on an adult site where adult things may *just* be discussed. However, the seemingly endless stream of complaints proves otherwise. And, yes, it's an adult site. The very first page that you see (the real face of the site for newbies, as they read it before they ever see global) drops you nude on the island and mentions a large purple sex toy. At some point, a newbie will find the midget brothel (probably during the museum quest early on). One of the first races that become available to them will be a kittymorph (catgirls who are encouraged to be naked in order to get a buff). Some of these things are actual selling points of the island, not detriments, so I don't think that snuggling in banter is an issue that should have had to be "fixed."


 
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rbead
 Thursday, April 17 2014 @ 08:44 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Thomas_III

No one's really waving at the screen when a friend comes online, after all.


Thanks for informing me nobody does that at all whatsoever good sir, I'll have to stop doing that and making strange noises and faces at my computer right quick yes. (yes, I actually do that stuff, there are people out there.)

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Listen, I know this is A Thing. It's been A Thing that people have issues with and/or struggle with for ages. Yeah, a lot of people do that, but there's also a lot of people who don't; there are even those who do enjoy it cooperating with those who don't and sticking their characters together. That's a person to person decision.


Oh, jeez, I'm sorry. I didn't mean at all to imply there's anything wrong with the ERP. It's absolutely a personal thing, just not my cuppa.


No, no, you're fine! That's perfectly alright, and it illustrates my next point all the better...

Quote by: Thomas_III

And, yes, it's an adult site. The very first page that you see (the real face of the site for newbies, as they read it before they ever see global) drops you nude on the island and mentions a large purple sex toy. At some point, a newbie will find the midget brothel (probably during the museum quest early on). One of the first races that become available to them will be a kittymorph (catgirls who are encouraged to be naked in order to get a buff). Some of these things are actual selling points of the island, not detriments, so I don't think that snuggling in banter is an issue that should have had to be "fixed."


This is a point I've heard from a few different people over the last few days. Let me approach it from an entirely different angle here...
There is an argument to be made that killing, Skronky, and insulting the cellulite of nude persons are all more objectionable than cuddling. Certainly, one thing all of these have in common is that they have the capacity to make people feel uncomfortable or bad. But, you could say, we have vidya gaems that are all about murder and mass-shooting and so forth! That's perfectly permissible in the thee-atre, I would say, absolutely it is, we still have issues with showing boobies and there's lots more peaceable feelings in boobies and genitalia (for some folks; I am sure there are those who are quite angered by the sight of boobies and/or genitals), but totally "clean" things don't show either of those. There is still pain and discomfort for someone somewhere if you do any of those things. This is not a campaign against snuggling specifically; snuggling just happens to be the most visible aspect. Keep in mind, actual people dying isn't allowed in Banter, and that's not being argued.

TL;DR: We're cleaning all of Banter, not just the PDA.

One thing that DOES frustrate me though is that I've seen people being told off for having opinions. That's not okay, period. You can have whatever opinion. You have your right to not be denigrated just as much as anyone else does, even if everyone disagrees with you.


 
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Fives
 Friday, April 18 2014 @ 09:14 PM UTC  
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I like being able to have my roll over in banter, and I finally am okay with the whole player thing simply because it is only in Global.


 
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