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 Cheap furniture to sleep on?
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Trowa
 Thursday, September 15 2011 @ 01:18 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Swede

Interesting discussion. It made me rethink a lot of things, still not changing my view though.
Thinking about it, the cigs do seem to force people into fights they otherwise might avoid.
A nice form of game balance.



Not to mention if you don't want to fight for cigs, you can always buy them with real monies at the Lodge. Win-win for CMJ! Mr. Green


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, September 16 2011 @ 02:35 AM UTC  
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Rich and poor? The real measure of wealth in an online game isn't req or cigs, or cards, or cobblestones. It is fun.


That's a great statement and all, but you know full well that when we talk about rich and poor, we're talking about a virtual economy in this game and how that affects the amount of fun the players at large have in this game.

Quote by: Count+Sessine



You're both reading the graph wrong. This isn't the hall of fame view; the high-resource players are that long tail off to the right where only one player has that exact high number of cigs. The chart was made a month ago, I just happened to have it around, so... fresh data: 52.82% of the players committed enough to the game to have supporter points have fewer than 25 cigs. And 84.2% of them have under a hundred.

Don't fixate on the details of this particular chart; the point is that everything in the game has roughly the same general distribution. You'd see pretty much the same shape if I analyzed the number of comments posted. There are many, many factors that contribute to this; if I had to sum them all up, it would be... people are different. Some are new to the game, not yet sure if they'll even stay. Some are very busy with that thing called Real Life, and the Island is a place they come back to for short intervals of escape. Some are only mildly interested in the combat side of things. Some are here to write collaborative stories. Some make many alts for lols or storytelling. Some do all of the above.

When there are multiple paths through a game, you have to expect that not everyone will take the same one. We want all players, no matter which path they've chosen to wander, to have enough fun here that they stay around. (And, eventually, start donating!)



But all of that doesn't advocate anything beyond "targeted solutions" so that every type of person has the capacity to do what they enjoy doing in the game.

I'm not against that as an overarching philosophy. But consider CMJ's concise and meaning-packed post in this thread. I said that the fasted method of acquiring Cigs is through combat, and that the usual barrier to non-combat features is by spending Cigs. His reply indicated (this is inference, of course, and I could be wrong) that this is exactly by design and there is no intention to change it otherwise.

The game's design is that he intends for all players to play the combat aspect of the game, which is the largest and primary part of the game. The amount can vary by what each player likes to do, but if a player wants to do something else more, he or she needs the Cigs to keep doing it, thereby pushing them back into doing combat. This cleverly balances out the activities--not to a 50/50 Combat/Non-Combat setup, but closer to 50/50 than would have been otherwise.

So while players want to do things other than combat, they must also go through the barrier of combat to do those other things. This rationing of the desired activity with helpings of less-desired activity usually makes the player value the desired activity more; too much delicious candy is no longer delicious, god mode gets boring fast.

Maniak and I (first I was speaking for CMJ's mind, now I'm speaking for Maniak's, lol) don't expect all players to do optimal combat playstyles. But we think it's reasonable and within the game's design for barriers of 10 cigarettes here and there to make players go into the combat area that they otherwise avoid. We don't expect every player to be swimming in too many cigs like us, but we think that when it gets to the point where we are, there should be more ways for us too to be able to get rid of these cigs on expensive things that we like.

I still stand by my original statement: any player can get to the point that Maniak or I have gotten to in the same amount of time we spent to get to our respective cigarette availabilities. There's no unfairness because everyone has an equal footing to start off. There's a wide gap because of the way playstyles vary, and I personally think that gap is too large between the less optimal and the more optimal playstyles. Apparently, CMJ doesn't think this gap is too large it seems, but that's a matter of opinion. The end result is that players like me will continue to lobby for higher costs and players with less cigs (poorer, Sessine. The player behind the character might be wealthy with fun, but the character is poor because he or she has less cigs,) will say that the costs should not be so high.

To me at the least, overcoming obstacles is part of the fun. If I get too rich for any feature to be an obstacle, I'll have less fun.




Fake Edit:

"Some people are new to the game, not sure if they'll even stay."
- So they're irrelevant to the cig costs of these "higher" features. By "higher", I mean features intended for the more permanent players. We don't exactly want unsure people to make another Empty Plot and then skedaddle away, never to return.

"Some are busy with real life."
- Like me. I haven't played in a long while, sans a couple days here and there. But my character has still already reached the point whether I can acquire sufficient amounts of cigs whenever I need them because of my past playstyle choices.

"Some are only mildly interested in combat."
- CMJ seems to say that combat isn't an optional feature--players are intended to go through it so they feel the achievement when they get to the point where they can do non-combat things.

"Some are here to write stories; some are alts for storytelling."
- Storywriting is one of the non-combat aspects of the game that is made easier after going through combat and acquiring those Cigs, as per the game's design. Alts are not directly supported by the game.

"Some don't really play the game too much, only enough to find things to argue about on the forums whenever they can."
- Yeah, I gotta stop making a debate in the forums every time I post. Mr. Green


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Saturday, September 17 2011 @ 01:14 AM UTC  
Forum Improbable Badass
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I put my vote to the being able to long out in the place, no need for a buff or debuff just a way to 1 click log out rather then closing the browser and timing out.. if possible, really the matter isn't a big deal to me but being able to log out like that would be nice.


 
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Sneaky
 Saturday, September 17 2011 @ 08:26 PM UTC  
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Quote by: LydiaDefountain

I put my vote to the being able to long out in the place, no need for a buff or debuff just a way to 1 click log out rather then closing the browser and timing out.. if possible, really the matter isn't a big deal to me but being able to log out like that would be nice.



Oh yes, please do this. No having to use a sleeping space or leave the Place, no having to wait thirty minutes to time out, just a button to log in and out right away.


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thryn
 Monday, September 19 2011 @ 04:46 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Maniak



In response to Awesome Fred; I love the idea of -5% stamina for camping out in the jungle. Biting mosquitoes, Lions in your shoes when you wake up, those are rough nights...



I like this, but I'd like it better if one could either purchase camping gear that would change that, or that once purchased cause that stam penalty to gradually become a stam boost. I've slept better camping on a lot of nights than I have in beds (OK, granted, I wasn't beset by Sneaky Bastards all night ...)

Including a randomizing aspect to account for monster-heavy or monster-free nights would be cool. Say if you don't have camping gear and you sleep in the Jungle, you get hit for -5%. When you buy camping gear, your results can vary from -4% to +5% (obviously, the exact numbers could be optimized. I'm just pulling these out of my ass). And as you camp more, that that shifts, so when you've maxed camping you get hit for -2% at worst and get a +7% bonus at most (or whatever).

Now, with available couches and whatnot everywhere, this may have limited appeal, but from an RP standpoint, it would be great for loner/ranger-type chars, I think ...


 
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Awesome Fred
 Monday, September 19 2011 @ 05:50 PM UTC  
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Quote by: thryn

Quote by: Maniak



In response to Awesome Fred; I love the idea of -5% stamina for camping out in the jungle. Biting mosquitoes, Lions in your shoes when you wake up, those are rough nights...



I like this, but I'd like it better if one could either purchase camping gear that would change that, or that once purchased cause that stam penalty to gradually become a stam boost. I've slept better camping on a lot of nights than I have in beds (OK, granted, I wasn't beset by Sneaky Bastards all night ...)

Including a randomizing aspect to account for monster-heavy or monster-free nights would be cool. Say if you don't have camping gear and you sleep in the Jungle, you get hit for -5%. When you buy camping gear, your results can vary from -4% to +5% (obviously, the exact numbers could be optimized. I'm just pulling these out of my ass). And as you camp more, that that shifts, so when you've maxed camping you get hit for -2% at worst and get a +7% bonus at most (or whatever).

Now, with available couches and whatnot everywhere, this may have limited appeal, but from an RP standpoint, it would be great for loner/ranger-type chars, I think ...



If you're suggesting a Camping skill that improves the bonus from this Camping Equipment or at least detracts the penalty for sleeping outdoors, I would be totally into that. But I suppose that goes out of bounds for what CMJ would implement in this season.


 
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Sonny
 Tuesday, September 20 2011 @ 11:07 AM UTC  
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Okay, let's think about this:
You are new to the game. Your stamina doesn't last long. You probably have problems with nutrition and fat food, or are starving among all the other things that bother you. And now you should lose another 5% when you're not sleeping on furniture? Lose another couple fights?

Does it apply to outposts? There's always something going on there. Lots of noise. Sleeping there shouldn't be as nice as in a bed, right? Bam! 5% less!

Then you might want to try the places on NH's map square, if you are even aware of the benefits of beds yet. Whoops! Every sleeping spot is taken! Bam! Still 5% less!

Can you at least log out there without having to let it time out? Probably not!
Would the penalty apply there nonetheless? Very likely! Bam!

Maximum penalty for bad or no food brings you down to what? 85%? That means you are down to 80% in this worst case scenario.

Remember you are a newer player. Traveling is still a bit scary. Kitt is faaaar away. Pville across deep waters. You lose stam when traveling. Maybe you can't reach the outpost with better food in time. Maybe you get lost. And maybe you have to log out in the wild, get failboated, or have to crack a chrono. BAM! -5% stamina penalty!

So, how would you feel then? Would you be confused? Would you ponder why you get punished even more? Does the game hate you?



Now what was this about? Ah yes. Floor spots or cheaper stuff to put into slots. Yes, please. At least a button to log out in dwellings again.
Maybe a cheap mat for some req and one or two cigs, to replace the old floor spots?

And for those veteran players with absolutely no idea of what to do with their cigs I suggest an item similar to cookies, but of course less effects, that can be purchased with many many cigs and gifted. Or perhaps a rank harder than Bastard, available for 1000 cigs per try. Or just to go and buy beds for other players, or help with buffs, play in the PSK, smoke them, whatever. Try to find ideas that don't punish half the island's population.


 
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tehdave
 Tuesday, September 20 2011 @ 05:54 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Sonny

And for those veteran players with absolutely no idea of what to do with their cigs I suggest an item similar to cookies, but of course less effects, that can be purchased with many many cigs and gifted. Or perhaps a rank harder than Bastard, available for 1000 cigs per try. Or just to go and buy beds for other players, or help with buffs, play in the PSK, smoke them, whatever. Try to find ideas that don't punish half the island's population.



More than half, really. I'm in a similar boat to Fred and Maniak, as I'm hovering around 554 cigs (I think I spent a bunch recently on various things) with no real sinks for it. I can't donate them to another clan to help out their buffs, I can't buy any more tattoos, Jewelry, or Luggage, and I don't have any ideas re: new dwellings right now. So I sit with a few cartons of cigs, not needing them to fight with, not wanting to use them for that purpose (getting nic addicted is a very bad thing on II) and no point in having so many, really. I could donate beds and whatnot to people, but I have no idea who needs what.

I agree that the stam penalty for logging out somewhere other than a dwelling/outpost is a very bad idea as Sonny so eloquently explained. Though I also agree that camping equipment would be fun to have too.

As far as cheap sleep spots? I think having maybe a 1000r/2cig "floor mat" that gives 1-3% extra stam wouldn't be a bad idea as a bit of a stopgap for people making dwellings that can't quite afford couches yet. Hell, even something that costs 6000 req but no cigs, with no stam boost. Just for flavor. (and cheap to customize, maybe, so you could have a "floor mat" renamed to the toilet or something...good flavor for someone at the end of a hard night of partying...)


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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