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 I'M SO TIRED OF STEAK (revamped food system thread)
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Harris
 Thursday, August 16 2012 @ 11:41 PM UTC  
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\o/


"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead
 
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Matthew
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 12:33 AM UTC  
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Still could definitely stand to have decreased costs. I usually do, but very few players I imagine just HAVE 10k req sitting around in their bank at any given moment. So, what, then, do only veteran players get to build efficiently now?

I would have posted but Lydia and Colin were pretty much saying all I would have, anyway. New system is okay. Just needs costs decreased to be less batshit insane.

Also, I'd tweak the Herbs thing- instead of randomly needing to supply your own herbs (which is stupid) why not have there be a chance of a discount if you have them, but you're paying full price if you don't? Flavor it as "well, we're running low on X, so if you happen to have your own..."

If a restaurant in real life told you that they ran out of salt, but if you went out to mine some they'd let you buy the dish for full price, you'd probably put your fist in their face.

I would.


 
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Ada
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 12:45 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

I crossed my fingers and hoped for the best. It was only a small risk I figured. I didn't eat at all the day before, and went to bed hungryish the day before that, so I had plenty of room.

I still had some room after three, and so went for it. Whether it really was worth the risk, or whether I was just really, really lucky remains to be seen. But 3 Unrepentants is certainly doable with room left over. After some work done, I now have room for energy drinks or rat packs as well. But even without that, the scrap yard is alright as long as you plan for it well.

Note: This doesn't necessarily mean that a Hunter's Lodge item to make you more effective in your scrap hunting is a bad idea.




I think you were really really lucky... but perhaps I'm just really really unlucky.


I'm a bit perplexed by this hunger gauge. It doesn't go down linearly... Eat a ratpack when you're just nearing a full gauge and it seems to take it down by about a quarter - eat another one and it takes you down to only about 1/4 remaining. And you managed to eat three unrepentants - I had a nearly full gauge and barfed after one.


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 01:04 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Matthew

Still could definitely stand to have decreased costs. I usually do, but very few players I imagine just HAVE 10k req sitting around in their bank at any given moment. So, what, then, do only veteran players get to build efficiently now?

I would have posted but Lydia and Colin were pretty much saying all I would have, anyway. New system is okay. Just needs costs decreased to be less batshit insane.

Also, I'd tweak the Herbs thing- instead of randomly needing to supply your own herbs (which is stupid) why not have there be a chance of a discount if you have them, but you're paying full price if you don't? Flavor it as "well, we're running low on X, so if you happen to have your own..."

If a restaurant in real life told you that they ran out of salt, but if you went out to mine some they'd let you buy the dish for full price, you'd probably put your fist in their face.

I would.



Well no I wouldn't expect someone who has got less then 3-5 dks to be able to raise it easily. But a full build.. is something that should be planed for, and it really isn't too hard to get 10k for food for building. The idea of the new system is to make cooking more beneficial if costs of buying are cut likely cooking will fall by the wayside again.

Really, plan your dan quests, hunt those crates, play the game or just do it, build a small nest egg of even 3k then focus on rp more with the bank incurring interest, play the market and move some nades up to ace, you'll have 10k in time.

I dunno I don't mind the costs so much as I was worried about having to make multiple trips and trying to have my build planed out to fit in 4 hours... which can be a challenge sometimes.. most times when I build... let me assure you.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 02:43 AM UTC  
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Guys, guys, calm down. I know that what I was saying before was inflammatory and accusatory.

I was just saying that stuff TO INSULT YOU ALL.

FUCK YOU

AND YOU

AND YOU



I honestly didn't mean to single out Lydia, but she was the first one to reply to my bait, so I ended up only quoting her. It's not personal, I'm targeting everyone in general. Whenever CMJ makes a change to an existing mechanic instead of simply adding a shiny new toy, everyone quickly complains that it's unreasonably difficult for new players and that it's ridiculously difficult to maintain the status quo.

I'm taking careful pains to avoid the words "I'm sorry" in this post, because I want it to be clear that I'm absolutely sick of the kneejerk reaction of playerbases in general. (And I'm trying to be an intentional jerk for once instead of an unintentional one.) Established players often cannot fathom the idea that they suddenly can't perform to the level they could before. "I used to be able to afford to eat the best everything and fill up every day!" Well, now you can't. Done. Period. You can only maintain restoring X amount of stamina before running out of money? Well, that's the new standard.

You might find that in a system of randomized availability, options you didn't know you had before might actually turn out to be better than X stamina, considering the new system has only been live for less than a week.

I'm not saying the playerbase can't complain. Hell, I would complain on these forums all the fucking time. All the fucking time. I'm probably balance critic number... 2? 1? Maybe 3. But I cry about things after a lot of time has passed, after people have really gotten a feel for what the change entailed. If you dig up the past somehow and find that I'm a hypocritical dirty liar, fine. The issue is that people are doing it now and it's not justified. We need to try to adapt to it first. At the risk of sounding like a business major,

"WHO MOVED MY CHEESE?!"

You guys yourselves are finding your opinions changing as time and the thread go on. They're generally lessening in their radicalism. That's because your feelings are being pushed aside by your findings.

Keep waiting. Experience more. Don't make a conclusion from the cover. Wait a few weeks. I just want us all to really try the system with the concept in mind that "we're no longer able to do everything." I'd like some more high level goals to achieve in this game, and I think some of you would like it too even if you don't think so yet.

Oh, hold on, I started sounding like slightly less of a dick.



You guys all need to shut your stupid uninformed traps.

Okay, I'm really sorry, a lot of you guys expressed very reasoned, researched statements. Some of you guys are turning around to it, some of you like it, and some of you think the cost is somewhat unreasonable but it's overall good. I was painting everyone under the same label even though it's really abundantly clear that this community is much better than that. Your estimates on how it impacts building is valid, I just don't think that's a problem yet. I'm especially sorry to Lydia, because I overblew her statement concerning builder's brews. I've always despised that reward because it's such a tangible boost to the game (as opposed to cosmetic reward) even though it's a "pay" item rather than an in-game item. Overall you guys have been fair if I bit too fast. At this point, though, I don't care about how you guys perceive me because, let's be honest, I'm always on the other side of the forum arguments, my opinion is small enough that you can shrug off any offense I have given, and we're all here on this forum because we want this game to succeed. I am awful at staying mean. Fuck you guys. =)


 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 04:12 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Guys, guys, calm down. I know that what I was saying before was inflammatory and accusatory.

I was just saying that stuff TO INSULT YOU ALL.



Awesome I'm disappointed. I thought that that was all aimed at me personally. Imagine the shock to my ego when I find that in actual fact it's aimed at everybody. Cry

More seriously, there's only one way to stop people spouting shite, and that to stop them saying anything at all. If you wait until you know everything before saying anything then you're taking a vow of silence.

As you may have noticed, I have a particular penchant for manure emittance. As I see it, we can go two ways. Either say what we're thinking, and throw out a load of crap, or keep quiet and keep hidden the few grains of good stuff. I go for the former.

I fully expect to have people call me out and call me an idiot. I'm not some little fourteen year old who worries about what everybody else is thinking of me. I got through that long ago.

In fact letting me know where I've said something daft is very good for me. It helps me winnow out the wheat from the chaff, something that I'd never manage if I kept quiet. So please please please go on reminding me that I'm an idiot, and pointing out where I've gone wrong, that really isn't a problem at all. Keeping quiet about it in case you upset me isn't polite, it's an insult.

Remember, there's one sure sign that tells you that somebody's a raging lunatic. Simply ask yourself this question. Are they breathing? If the answer is Yes. Then you have a clear case of raging lunacy on your hands.


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 05:39 AM UTC  
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I was trying to wait.. but I decided to join in with concern when the subject was broached... likely cause I am stressed cause of this move. A good debate is good for the nerves.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 07:12 AM UTC  
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I love you guys. Fuck the bloody lot of you. Mr. Green

I designed this new system so that it'd take slightly longer than your usual five sodding minutes to divine the optimum strategy. Here's how this thing usually plays out:

1. I think of a wrinkle to put in a game feature so that it changes the optimum strategy. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT. No, fuck off, don't tell me what you really want, you don't have a clue, you're a human just like me and, just like me, you're shit at predicting what'll make you happy. What you want, and what'll make you happy, are hardly ever the same thing. You think you want to sit around pressing the same button day in and day out, but you only think that's fun because it's the culmination of you spending the time to figure out the absolute maximum return per button press - you know, the part that's actually fun. Like a smoker getting his fix, you fixate on the cigarette rather than the delicious, delicious nicotine, to the point where you start to believe that the cigarette actually tastes good. My job is to make you happy by giving you hard choices to make, so that you can feel clever when your choices finally turn out right - and the longer it takes you, the cleverer you feel. Do you think, after building a massive new house, you'd feel the same sense of accomplishment if I made it so that all building was free and instantaneous? No, would you bollocks, that'd be crap. So, I sit down and go "Right, my job is to make this lot happy, so I'm gonna give them some more challenge."
2. I spend weeks coding the bastard thing up.
3. Coding done, I upload the new version and giggle like a mad little tinpot dictator, rubbing my hands together and going "Yes, yessss, let's see them figure this one out."
4. Uproar and spittle ensues. At least one whiner will talk about leaving the game, loudly and publicly, for I have Changed It And Ruined It Forever. Maybe they're a popular player, and get support from all their cliquey mates. End result, the whiner erases their character, the cliquey mates go "Oh shit, didn't think she'd actually do that," the whiner slinks back in under a new name 48 hours later.
5. Doesn't matter, because in those 48 hours, someone's figured out that if you combine a Noodly Whatever with a WhoGivesAFuck Cake, you'll get twice as much Thingy as you did even under the old, broken-ass system, a factor I had failed to consider.
6. I reflect upon the sad fact that, in much the way that it takes two minutes to read something that took someone an hour to write, a puzzle that takes one man two weeks to build will be solved in about three hours if you throw six thousand extraordinarily clever people at it. You bastards.

This time, I wanted to break that cycle. My options were as follows:
1. Design games for idiots on Facebook instead;
2. Find some way to lower your collective IQ, possibly through random exposure to excerpts from 50 Shades of Grey;
3. Design things in such a way that the mathematically-optimum strategy was constantly changing, and throw in a bunch more variables, until the system got so complex that it'd take fucking spreadsheets to figure out the best way to game it.

So, yeah. As food goes in and out of availability, and as Herb count fluctuates, the mathematically-optimum strategy will change from day to day. Your new goal is to watch the patterns and choose what to do, not to go to Pleasantville and order a bunch of Noodly Noodles and a Mutant Steak. You did that in the last version because when I made the last version I didn't bother to balance a damn thing. I just threw a bunch of numbers into arrays and went "Yeah, that looks about right," and it turns out that it was anything but right, and then I left it untouched for years because I wanted to tell silly stories about socially-awkward Robots instead.

The resulting food system was a task, not a game. You hear the optimum strategy from a higher-level player, and you perform that strategy, over and over again, until you wonder why it's even a thing, why I don't just dock you X Req and give you Y Stamina each day automatically, it'd save you the clicks.

On the subject of new players - I know for a damn fact that they don't play the game the same way as veterans do, because I watch them. They use targeted fighting. They gamble intelligently. They optimize the living shit out of every single facet of the game. The auto-fight buttons gather dust. The Rookies will be just fine. If you're able to get everything done in a game day that you want to, if you don't have to balance the benefits, if you've figured out the absolute best way to go about a Game Day and it's the same method today is it was yesterday... then as a game designer, I've failed.

So, yeah. Give it some time, get your spreadsheets going, and quit being so damned clever, you lot are gonna drive me bonkers. Razz


 
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CavemanJoe
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 07:18 AM UTC  
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Also, just to note:

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

I take it all back! I just had four Unrepentants on the trot and now have over 500% stam. It cost 10,000 req.



You're going to be fat forever.


 
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blake7791
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 07:48 AM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe



You're going to be fat forever.



I thought only food that has higher fat content than stamina gain is fattening?


A suggestion, allow an option to hunt for food in the jungle. Sometimes when you're hunting, it is possible that all monsters that you meet do not provide meat. A way to preserve some of the meat for the next day would be nice. Is it possible to provide lunchboxes in the restaurants?

I think the food in the restaurants are a bit on the expensive side. The cost in reqs should be reduced if they ask you to provide herbs.

Overall, I think I like it better than the previous system.




 
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Matthew
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 11:42 AM UTC  
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You know, I had a whole thing typed up, and as I got ready to hit the submit button I realized it's pretty much pointless and can be summed up thus:
I disagree.

Here, have another gif.


 
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Skidge
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 02:09 PM UTC  
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Mannnn, the only reason I'm pissed at the sudden complication in my life that is herbfinding/carcasscleaning/figuring out the restaurants is because I'm a LAAAZY gameplayer who wants to get my clicking out of the way so I can go throw Improbabombs into NewHome's Story feed.

I JUST

WANNA

ROLEPLAY

I DON'T

WANNA

THINK

You-there-boy, fetch me my fainting couch that I may whimper.

....actually once I got my rampant whining out of the way (And thanks, by the way, gchatters, for putting up with it) I found that I rather liked the new food system. Oh, it is irritating as hell, I have no idea how a newish character (I'm at 6 right now I think) is supposed to afford it. Y'say the rooks are smarter now? That's cool, you're getting a lot of nonlazy gameplayers maybe. You might not get as many great writers, because they'll get frustrated at the Constant Failure That Is Their First Like Seven DKs Unless Someone Sends Them A One-Shot. Or maybe you'll still get all the awesome people to stay, because they're so awesome they got patience streaking out their eyeballs instead of bitter, bitter tears.

IN ANY CASE I LIKE IT but probably that's because I immediately took the Psychotic RPer view and said, sweet! I get to say my character is finding herbs and combining them to make sleeping potions now! And she's fat, I get to figure out how she'd react to being fat! I bet dried SneezeWhatever is great for pranks! Steelseeds, when planted, grow WHAT EXACTLY?!

PUT MY VOTE IN THE "MAKE FOOD CHEAPER IN NEWHOME" CATEGORY. Honestly, I don't care about the game being an uphill climb for the rest of the species and once I got used to it, I stopped whining even about the cost of living. So I have to think now. Eh, fine. It still beats sittin' around the house waitin' for someone to call me up and tell me my resume rocks and I can stop bothering the government for survival tithes now.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 03:07 PM UTC  
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But Skidge, to RolePlay, you don't need to eat. You just need to be able to travel to where you want to go. End of. Make your character rank 1 difficulty and you're away. No problem. Or...am I missing something here?


 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 05:01 PM UTC  
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I think the real debate is over my avatar right meow. Is it merely better than before, or the best of all time?

Also, does the randomized effect of Acehigh food stay consistent within a gameday but be random each day, or is it random each time you eat it period?


 
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LydiaDefountain
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 05:19 PM UTC  
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hey I'm less worried about min maxing.. I don't want to do my place in one ay.. okay that's impossible really.. my biggest concern was the fact that the way the system works with you eating, getting hungry and eating again then working and getting hungry again.. seemed like a royal pain in the arse while building..

I always run into the next newday while building... time wise just trying to figure out how to o what I want to do.. most of that's the puzzle of building that I enjoy (though honestly I do not enjoy my constant writers blocks on figuring out how to write what I want to say... but we can't fix that)... but I normally have over half stam by the time newday arrives.. losing the same max stam isn't so bad as knowing I could have done more if I could have solved this problem sooner and knew exactly how many pages I'd need sooner...

It's the knowing that you're losing an opportunity for some reason or another with the scrapyarding and building I was worried about.. I can wait will I have the money, the plans and everything for the unrepentants, even if it makes my character fat.. I rp mainly.. the building is a side line.. that I wish I got more work done on constantly..

I do understand why others may not be happy with this...

I have got to get up to ace when I'm feeling more jungling.. random stam sounds really cool.


 
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Trowa
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 06:22 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

Also, does the randomized effect of Acehigh food stay consistent within a gameday but be random each day, or is it random each time you eat it period?


And this is where I stop reading the thread. I cannot wait until I get my internet at home again next week! I was going to write a silly tongue-in-cheek "boo-hoo you changed everything and I'm leaving" post, but now that this sounds even more interesting, I'm going to have to wait to play this thing to see how much fun it really is! Big Grin


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 06:23 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

I think the real debate is over my avatar right meow. Is it merely better than before, or the best of all time?



That's truly cool Awesome. It's a detail taking from a Rembrandt isn't it? I can tell from the brush strokes.


 
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Ada
 Friday, August 17 2012 @ 09:17 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

But Skidge, to RolePlay, you don't need to eat. You just need to be able to travel to where you want to go. End of. Make your character rank 1 difficulty and you're away. No problem. Or...am I missing something here?




She's gotta make it to 12 DKs first. Razz


 
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Skidge
 Saturday, August 18 2012 @ 01:50 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

But Skidge, to RolePlay, you don't need to eat. You just need to be able to travel to where you want to go. End of. Make your character rank 1 difficulty and you're away. No problem. Or...am I missing something here?




She's gotta make it to 12 DKs first. Razz



*prim* Some of us do not believe in waving our hands and saying "HEY MY CHAR'S A JOKER MY CHAR'S A JOKER!" Some of us need our characters to actually be Jokers in order to claim Jokerdom.

Or we can't sleep nights. Because something is wrong.

Also, the next time some of us say, "hey I think maybe this Island thing is becoming an addiction, maybe I should lay off for a bit?" some of us need to be reminded that probably at some point we will be bored again and come back and oh, probably we shouldn't delete our main accounts.

*/prim* Mr. Green


 
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Grey
 Saturday, August 18 2012 @ 08:15 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Skidge

Quote by: Ada

Quote by: Hairy+Mary

But Skidge, to RolePlay, you don't need to eat. You just need to be able to travel to where you want to go. End of. Make your character rank 1 difficulty and you're away. No problem. Or...am I missing something here?




She's gotta make it to 12 DKs first. Razz



*prim* Some of us do not believe in waving our hands and saying "HEY MY CHAR'S A JOKER MY CHAR'S A JOKER!" Some of us need our characters to actually be Jokers in order to claim Jokerdom.

Or we can't sleep nights. Because something is wrong.

Also, the next time some of us say, "hey I think maybe this Island thing is becoming an addiction, maybe I should lay off for a bit?" some of us need to be reminded that probably at some point we will be bored again and come back and oh, probably we shouldn't delete our main accounts.

*/prim* Mr. Green



Some of us even at that get the Dks and play the race and find that it's really uncomfortable to play, or even at the worst that we can not play as that to save our skins, though I suppose that's what defines what some would call a good roleplayer, to be able to play a role you may be uncomfortable with, and still enjoy it...

Also this is all a bit off topic now... Sorry


 
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