Ugh, I'm going to be opening up a can of worms here. -.-

But I feel it's an issue that needs to be discussed. I've already stated earlier the practical issues behind it for me (i.e. that it's disruptive, that my ADHD makes the pop-up not only hard to ignore, but also makes it difficult for me to pay attention to chat when it comes up.) Let me be the first to say (and I have always said this) that I understand the intent behind it. The intent (as I see it) is to cut down on roleplaying in Banter. To make Banter a friendly, welcoming environment for people to come into. To increase the knowledge that Banter is a spot where you're your character. That a healthy in-character/out-of-character divide is a good thing for a roleplayer to have.

It's to prevent characters from having an avenue to do annoying "cutesy" stuff in Banter. To trim down the interactions where lines get blurred and people get uncomfortable. I get that.

However, I feel that this is a point where the cure is becoming worse than the disease. And I think it's time to ask ourselves the question "Can we fully stop the snugglepiles in Banter?" and also "What do these new changes mean for the Island?"

To the first question, my opinion is a vehement no. And it's also a bit of a defeated no. I'm one who doesn't necessarily care for it. But I think another question is "Should we fully stop them?" I guess the reason to stop them is because it bothers people and annoys them. But, well, we're all adults here. We all encounter people that frustrate us. That annoy us. That bother us. Learning how to deal with some minor annoyances is part of being an adult. And sure, the snugglepiles are annoying, but if it's really that that fully turns me away from a game, then I don't think that that game would have been right for me in the first place. I'm not talking about "this bothers me." I'm talking about "This is the deciding factor for me to leave." People having thin IC/OOC boundaries is a player issue, not a community issue. This is something that online roleplaying communities (and fanfiction communities) suffer from across the internet worldwide. It's not going away. The players it impacts have to take time to understand why what they do is unhealthy (I shy away from the term "wrong.") And I could post a whole other forum on why thin IC/OOC boundaries is unhealthy. But the matter of fact is this kind of stuff happens in chatrooms with no roleplaying whatsoever, so to expect the Island to be 100% different is kind of a goal that's setting yourself up for grief.

So what do I feel these warnings mean for Island as a whole? It's a constant reminder of "What you are doing is wrong" in a game that's appeal is that it's simple being down to four rules. Downing on people for emoting in Banter is finger shaking of the first degree at people who, by and large, aren't probably abusing the privilege. It makes Banter less of a fun welcoming environment. People use emotes to wave at each other, to offer hugs and support, to say what their player is doing, to make announcements, to make the word "says" gramatically appropriate. People use emotes for a large dozen of reasons that aren't "roleplaying their character." And without being able to "roleplay" (in a way that isn't our character, but is our player or just us being goofy), it's harder to be goofy. And if it's harder to be goofy, it's harder to be yourself on the Island. And the Island loses life.

We're adults. It's not something that's against the rules. People should be allowed to be treated like adults and make adult decisions. There's a select few (and I emphasize this a select few) of us who aren't able to act like adults. Those people should be politely reminded what Banter is for, I agree. Those people won't go away just because a warning says so. Putting up something that affects the community as a whole like this is in a way becoming a bit like a nanny. And being treated like less of an adult on a game geared towards adults is something that does bother me in a core.

Agree. Tons of reasons to use emotes in banter that aren't related to roleplay. When I saw that for the first time last night, I only thought it would show up once, like the cookie thing, so I was like "oh, I guess that's helpful." Second time and on that it showed up, "really? Really?"

So, yeah, how about making it only show up once and then never again?

Having it pop up for the entire first DK would be fine too. As long as it's reworded. Implying emoting as a whole is negative encourages rookies to not stretch their literary muscles and get used to the weird sentence structure that Story enforces.

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For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.

While I'm not particularly a fan of it, I do think it's a far cry better than another possibility.

We still HAVE emotes.

That's nice. That we have them. That they're not just suddenly gone. I'd rather have a little blue text pop up than lose them entirely.

Just sayin, CMJ has historically taken things away at his own judgement, with every right. This feels like a considerably more moderate approach to trying to solve something than removing it entirely.

Rose

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moooooooooo Visit and help me finish the monster list: goo.gl/rpBGe (Ya'll mostly know me as CLOG, fyi)

You make a compelling arguement, Den. I'd go so far as to say a possibly utterly correct one.

I think the only other issues in connection here that still need to be addressed (for our peace of mind, if nothing else) are: How long has the Island (its Mods and Admin) been dealing with this problem at a severe level? Is it really a select few who do naught but the ..."chatroom" (for lack of a better term) roleplaying in Banter, or is it many more? It seems to me like you are on the righ track here- unless the answer to either, or both of these questions is a severe one.



EDIT: Just wanna add the quick note, Dan, (no matter how this thread is answered) thank you for always doing your best to let us be demanding when it comes down to things about your game that bother us. Nowhere near a majority of MMOanything's mods/admins/tech/etc. do that.

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"Ain't nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile." -The Grateful Dead

I do agree with you on that front. Even if it is actively hard for me to type it. And I don't expect CMJ to change things on a personal issue, even if it has come to the point where I've needed to actively delete or stop and recollect my thoughts in the middle of perfectly sensible posts because my eyes cannot stand the blue texts. (I wish I were joking that it is actively painful and physically draining for me to read). At the very least, making it less intrusive would do a lot to overcome the physical.

And while CMJ does have a right to take things away or adjust things, he does make a statement with a policy like this. A no-tolerance policy demonstrates a certain type of approach and effectively makes it a rule without stating it's a rule. Taking them away would also create a sort of statement. It's not easy being an admin on a game and trying to appease many different types of people! But also, listening to a player base when they have concerns or not...that's also a statement to be made.



Exactly my point, yes. How severe and pervasive is it being seen as an issue? Is it a nuisance level or is it a pervasive issue that needs to be addressed? A couple of flies buzzing around is call for a fly swatter, not a bug bomb and a hazmat team. Personally, I've only tended to see it at a nuisance level in general but maybe I'm wrong in that?

I'm another one of those people who gets rather uncomfortable with snugglepiles- besides the issue of not seeing what the point of them is- but the blue text is a little bit of an eyesore. I suppose that's why it was chosen, being hard to ignore and all. That said, I feel like the whole message could cut off the "Are you sure you want to emote here?" bit, as that to me seems to be the most unfriendly part of it.


Also I feel like we could rename The Banter Channel to Out Of Character Channel/Chat instead maybe? So we don't have to post reminders all over saying "Hey guys remember this is not your character?" I dunno how well that would work, but I believe it might be a slightly less-intrusive way of getting the message across.

I would just like to say that while I personally don't agree with you at all about the text, you make a good point in a concise and respectable manner that apparently applies to several other people. For instance, I don't have ADHD or anything like that, so I can't really see it from your perspective on that front. I didn't realise it could be that distracting for people. And while I can easily ignore it seeing as I have no intention of misusing emotes in a derogatory manner, I suppose it's possible that some people cannot. For whatever reason. So thank you for helping me understand where everyone else seems to be coming from.

Personally (again) I very much appreciate that you've brought it here and laid out all the good points you have instead of banging on about it in Banter for what feels like five thousand bloody years.

I feel like there's a better way to say this, but I can't really think of one at the moment, and this whole debacle has been seriously bothering me (I feel like I'll explode if I don't say something), so I'll just put this up here. Sorry if I offend anyone.

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Yoo fooken wot m8.

Before a new player can post in either Story or Banter they have to read a page that lays out Banter being out of character. Then they see the "'s player" after everyone's name. And if I recall, at level one there's bright blue text at the top of the chats that reiterates that Banter's OOC. The game makes it really clear what Banter's for. But some people ignore it anyways. Having another minor change isn't going to change the behavior of the people using Banter incorrectly, just like how the 's player addition didn't.

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For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.

I have spoken with both CMJ in banter and one of the moderators in distractions about my thoughts and feelings on these new warnings. Both have suggested that I post these thoughts here. Most of my points have been covered to some extent in the preceding comments, but perhaps I should share my own perspective.

As some of you may have noticed, I rarely role play anymore (whether this is good news or bad news is up to you to decide). My creative juices are down to a trickle for now, so the main reason I come onto the Island is the silly fun I have hanging out in banter. While there, I use emotes to, as others have said, wave, hug, flop, blargle (I am not entirely sure what it means, but it certainly expresses whatever that is quite well), and generally express myself through a written form of non-verbal communication. Unfortunately, the bold blue lettering with the warning bothers my eyes, so every time I want to wave or do something mundane and fun in banter, this reminder causes me discomfort. On the one hand, I fully understand CMJ's desire to keep the majority of the Island happy, as it is not only his lovely creation, but also his source of income. On the other hand, the new warning impairs my enjoyment of the Island, and therefore pushes me towards stepping away.

To make matters worse, the warning is not going to be terribly effective in the long run. Individuals will continue to need reminders not to get overly snuggly in banter, and then the next decision will have to be made. Suppose things escalate again, and CMJ decides that the best way to combat snugglepiles is to remove emotes from Banter completely. This will, without a doubt, cause quite a ruckus and stink for a while. People may even leave over this, taking their time and money elsewhere. Then, when the dust settles, the people remaining will, as intelligent and creative folks often do, simply adapt and get around the Banter ban on emoting. They will use the gray lettering, or throw a colon at the beginning of their words, then type in their actions. Now the problem still goes unsolved, things go to a new "normal", and the ones who started the hoopla in the first place go on their merry way. The only great difference is the alienation of those that responded poorly to having a beloved privilege taken away.

So now the question is: what is the best way to deter the unwanted behavior? I must admit to not knowing the answer. I believe the recent addition of more moderators is a step in the right direction. They can help steer Banter away from undesired activities with a few simple words delivered first with a smile, then with more force as necessary. Admittedly, there will not always be a moderator there. The only thing that can help in that situation is self-policing among the players. Perhaps a Message of the Day asking for snuggly behavior to be curtailed in public would help keep the non-readers of the Enquirer abreast of the situation, and convince us all to work together to make Banter a calmer, less touchy-feely place.

I think we're ignoring the vast, silent majority here, so I will take it upon myself to speak for them: who gives a shit if people emote in banter?

Yeah, I'm sure a few people really, really don't like it, but a bright blue bold text that shows up every single time is an inconvenience to literally everybody, and it certainly will not stop the kind of behavior that it's mean to curtail. Seems a little disproportionate!

I'm glad this came up. I hadn't logged into the Island for a couple days since I noticed the message, so I don't know what's been said in Banter about it.

My initial reaction to the pop-up was surprise. It first came up for me when I started writing an emote to wave at someone. After reading the message, I changed my emote to just saying 'hello.' Then I noticed people were still emoting, and my second thoughts were "am I being singled out? Is this some new automatic warning system from the Mods?" I was hoping it was a temporary message, like Matthew said, but it kept coming back. I even asked about it in Banter because I saw CMJ in there, and got no response. That just made me feel even worse. So, since everyone else was ignoring the message and even comments about the message, I just gave up and ignored it, too. That was a couple days ago.

I find the pop-up nature of the message disturbing and the wording accusatory. I had no idea that waving to people in Banter was such a bad thing, but that's exactly what this message says to me.

I understand the intent, but the execution leaves much to be desired. And yes, I also understand CMJ is a tyrant, and if he feels the pop-up makes his game better, then fine. But I don't agree, and I even feel a bit insulted. Like Den said, this is an adult game for adults, why are we treating each other like children? I also disagree with Rose: if the emotes in Banter are such a problem, then take them away. Don't half-ass the solution by putting a sticker on it.

For reference, here's the notice:

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Something something unintelligible gibberish something.

I know many of you have been here longer than I have, but I've been here long enough to know that the Island has its own culture...part of that has always included, in my experience, the various hugs, glomps, and piles that this new warning is all about. Obviously Banter has gone global in the meantime; everyone can potentially read it from just about anywhere on the Island. But I feel like the rules for general Island behavior, boiling down to "don't be a dick," mean: Hey, we trust that you are a reasonably mature adult and can act like one.

Now, the message I'm getting is: Well, turns out we don't really trust you, and we're going to remind you of this fact every time you type a colon.

All of the measures to help new players understand the distinct nature of Banter haven't stopped the hugging and glomping, kidnapping, and whatever else some people don't like. I don't have much confidence that the blue text will do it, either. It's the culture, folks. The Island itself is a completely wacky, crazy, random place where you fight versions of yourself in the Jungle, buy furniture and tattoos with cigarettes, and carry unconscious players in your backpack; story is a place where a chance hello to a Joker might result in an extra pair of ears, where you might meet someone you'll marry, and where glitter is transferred by touch like a virus...yet somehow it's expected that in that one little Banter text box folks refrain from doing stuff like hugging? I guess I just don't see it happening.

Does that mean there isn't a solution? The best I can think of is reinstating the...the thing where you could chat in people's bios (yeah I don't remember what it was called). Let people have their hugs and glomp piles out of view and in private. Keep Banter for discussions and questions. And yes, of course Distractions in theory do the same thing. But I'm not sure if people really use them that way...if there was a space to take those private and more personal greetings for a quick back and forth, chat style, I think it could make a dent. Bio open in one window, Banter and story in another, keep up with all of 'em. Yeah...and that might be a huge pain that will never happen, but figured I'd suggest it.

Natter.

I loved Nattering! That was always loads of fun to open my bio and find messages left behind by buddies every time I logged in.

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Something something unintelligible gibberish something.

Good heavens, I haven't been on here as an active user in forever, if the dead name is any indication. But I think I should speak up for a different sect of the Silent majority.
I see this issue from a lot of your perspectives, for one. So, if you're willing to bear with me, I'll try to synopsize and add my own thoughts to the fray.

Okay, a lot of folks are bothered by it. And a lot of folks don't care. So far, these are the two groups that have been debating the 'snugglepile issue.' And by debate, I mean miss one another entirely. But there's a couple other groups that are being left out, and I'll get to them, but let's start with the hates. You guys, for a variety of reasons, hate that there's a lot of overbearing emoting in Banter. Things like piles of people snuggling, kidnappings, and other more distracting shenanigans. And I get that. It's really frustrating to try and talk to someone about a scene when the comments are washed away by something that seems meaningless to you. Perhaps the whole idea of it is something that annoys you, whether it's getting in your way or not. You guys are focused on the times when it gets really bad, and it does sometimes. And that's fine.

And there's those of you who don't care at all. You guys mostly see it as something that can't be stopped and, usually, something that doesn't get too irritating. A lot of what I see is that the opinion is the absurdity is part of the culture of the island. And I find myself having to agree to this. This is a place where very unusual and sometimes disturbing things happen. I mean, there's a canon 'feotid Midget brothel.' So, the sort of people that would be brought into this kind of world are going to, for the most part, be quite weird. And that's awesome! Some level of absurdity should always be expected wherever you go on the island, because it's the island. But, that doesn't excuse it getting overbearing and in the way of other people. What it does do is makes it surprising that people are surprised that the 'snugglepile' issue hasn't been resolved. In the last couple months, and I could just be missing them, I haven't actually seen global banter get quite out of hand more than maybe three times. Again, this is a guesstimate, so don't bite my head off if it's wrong please! My point is, I don't think it's such a huge deal so often that such drastic action is needed. I have ADHD pretty seriously (regardless of my professional opinions about whether it's a real disorder), and it's pretty distracting to me as well. I get that's the point, but perhaps a periodic message pop-up would solve the problem better. This is a good segue into the next group: People that don't care.

This could easily be the largest group, but that's not something that's easy to find out because they don't care and won't comment on it. These people put up with the occasional bad spots already, and are now being punished for the actions of a decidedly smaller group of people, and I don't think that's fair. As has been said before, the wording is fairly aggressive and a deterrent to people actually wanting to speak, especially the Rookies who don't want to offend someone by screwing up. If nothing else, please make the wording more friendly for their sakes. That's the biggest issue I have. The rest of it can be argued out between the first two groups, who should be working together to deal with the final group:

People who are actually causing the problem. They're a small minority people. And when dealing with small portions, it's much better to use small brush-strokes than larger ones. Deal with them more severely, not the group as a whole. I'm not a mod, or an admin, and my opinion is certainly as flawed as any other human, but I think if there was a dedicated effort to educate, and if that fails, punish the small percentage that's really making this an issue as a whole, we could all be a lot happier and not fighting with one another about this. We're adults, in an adult community. We want to be treated as adults, and we ought to treat one another like adults. So if the mods can speak to the people that come to everyone's mind when they think about this issue, we can probably treat one another like we should and get this in hand.

To summerize this long wall of text:
Some of us are really bothered by it, some of us aren't bothered at all and are bothered by the measures that are being taken, a lot of us don't care, and a few people are causing a problem. So, should we keep trying to deal with a few rats with a flamethrower (the reference being size, not severity) rather than rat poison? No matter what, please change the message format to a friendlier one because we love our rookies. And going forward, lets try to deal with each person that's a problem. And by we, I mean the mods. We can't go all vigilante justice and make the problems much worse because everyone's making their own sheriff's badge and rounding up the posse. The island is great, CMJ is good, and people are crazy. And that's why I love it here, and I assume that it's the same to most of you. Now, that's just my take. We can't solve this if you stay silent, so speak up and let's get a good, adult discussion going. Ian Aventri and co. out.

Before we get too far off topic, let me be clear on one thing: I don't think the "canon feotid Midget brothel" should be utilized as an argument for OOC behavior. As much as I feel on the issue, a wobbly IC/OOC boundary is unhealthy and regardless of whether we disagree or disagree with how the situation is being handled, "The game has a Midget brothel, therefore all OOC behavior is valid" is a nasty logical fallacy trap that I don't want to get into. In canon, all the contestants regularly kill monsters as well. That doesn't make any players killers by default, nor imply that they should accept killing as an acceptable behavior or topic of discussion in an OOC forum.

I appreciate your thoughts and comments on the thread, but I do want to avoid diluting or distracting from the argument by taking it down that road.

The context of the text coming across as overbearing, those are definitely words I agree with.

Eek! My apologies, that wasn't my intent. I probably got distracted by my own biases, as well was intending to make the point for those that are in the camp of 'silliness being a culture of the island' to show that absurdity is a regular feature here on the Island. Others, please don't follow that down the slippery slope fallacy, just leave it there. My only intention was to agree with the point made by someone else above, which I can't find now, that it's hard for people to make the jump from that mindset to an entirely OOC mindset. That's just not going to happen. Some people can't flip their mindsets like a switch on and off between writing a character and talking in a chatroom. I personally see the issue as one that can only be 'solved' via the unpopular (and in my opinion, bad) option of removing emoting entirely, so that it's not normally possible to behave in the same way. Although people are persistent, and like Mal said, they'll find a way to keep doing what they're doing if they're insistent or spiteful. But I don't see emoting in banter as big of a deal, because I'm of the blindly optimistic opinion that a talking to from the Mods can keep it in check. If people hug, high-five, wave, or etc. in Banter, it's not that big of a deal. After all, they likely did just come from writing a character that's acting in all sorts of ways. Again, this is just my opinion, and if you think I'm totally wrong, please tell me.

Good first post by Denealus, and I agree. Also, I personally view the emote warning as a symptom of a hidden, or not so hidden in this case, standard of behavior on the Island.

There are many players on the Island who place high value on grammar, turn of phrase, and entertaining language in their story writing. These same writers on the whole also seem to prefer more structured, focused conversational topics in Banter. I find that quite a few of these players speak of "encouraging" rookies, investing in them, helping them along, or similar. I think it's a natural inclination for members of a group or culture to mentor new people in the way they enjoy things. I include myself in this group- especially since I've done the same in the past for new players and offered advice on roleplay, style, plot and such.

However, when it has been stated by CMJ that there are going to be no rules put forth as to what behavior or style you must follow, simply "Don't be a jerk", which is quite a fair and liberal rule, 'nudges' or half rules of this kind seem very onerous and heavy-handed to me. It may only be Banter, but many players enjoy being silly and hanging out. They aren't being jerks, and Banter is a public place. On the whole these 'snugglepile' interactions may be emoted, but their writers do act as if it's meant to be taken out of character. I find it a little hard to believe that a few glances at a 'silly' Banter can confuse or disgust a new player so much so that they then leave. There's so much more to look at on the Island!

If it isn't going to be said straight out 'Please, don't emote in Banter. CMJ wants to present a certain image to new players and/or personally doesn't like it', well, then that's one thing. But this new warning... why is it really here? Because some players find Banter snugglepiles annoying? Yeah, okay. Oftentimes, so do I. Frankly, tough shit, because it isn't up to me.
If this were a real life public place and I saw a bunch of teenage girls giggling and making a lot of noise, or a couple smooching in public, or people generally being loud and silly while I was trying to be quiet and chat with my friends, I would just grumble to myself and for the most part, ignore it. Because it's none of my business to interrupt other people's fun. I've seen people complain about Banter 'being loud' or 'going too fast' when this type of behavior is happening... well, that's inherent to Global Banter no matter who's doing the talking. Ask yourself- is it truly disruptive? Or do YOU just interact differently? I strongly believe that 95% percent of the time, it's the latter. If it's the other 5%, call a Moderator.

This is why I supported Global Banter in the first place... because the post of a shy rookie player on the forum made me realize that just because something isn't to my taste, I don't have the right to impose my preferences on someone else when they're having fun and keeping to themselves. When veteran players give a lot of 'correction' unasked, even with the best intentions, it can also be hurtful or inspire anxiety. On the whole I feel the Island would be happier if we stopped trying to police the behavior of players towards some unstated-to-them goal of behavior, bringing up the topic again and again, under some guise or another, of how we will "Fix NewHome", "stop the snugglepiles", or "educate the Rookies".

I still believe example through story, and just generally being friendly, is the best way to get people excited and to realize that roleplay can become more complicated and entertaining with practice. If you are having a good time and making an effort to include other players, invariably they will want to join in. Ebenezer and Carlynne are two stellar examples of this.

Lastly... on the whole, I agree with what several other posters have said- even with the warning there, I doubt it will change much. So why have it at all when it seems so aggressive?



tl;dr "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

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I kind of get the feeling from this thread that the only two options seem to be either to have this warning or to disable emoting entirely, and going off my previous point, I guess I feel like the actual best option is to leave it alone and do nothing. Like Waverly said, we're all (mostly) adults here, and I think just ignoring things that you don't like is kind of part of the whole deal. You might as well replace the current emote warning in banter with a huge STOP LIKING THINGS THAT I DON'T LIKE!! and it would get the same general message across.

I feel like all of this discussion is in response to a problem that simply doesn't exist. Nobody has left the game or donated less money because of snugglepiles in banter. No one. Ever.

I'd love to be proven wrong.

That's the thing, you're never going to hear from the people it drives away. Obviously no one who's already dealt with the problem in their own way are going to up and leave. It's the people who're looking at Banter for the first time and getting turned off by it who're never coming back.

And if CMJ informing people that he doesn't like certain things in his game is as childish as you make it seem, what do you call the Dancer plotline?

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For rent: one skull, in serious need of dusting.