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Mr Geppetto
 Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 03:15 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Escemfer

Hairy Mary is talkin' about just what I was thinking! Rooms without floor space and/or chatspace. That would be awesome.

And since we're talking about fireman poles and secret passages, it would also be pretty cool if we could rename the links from Room A to Room B. For example, you Enter the Secret Passage and end up in Geppetto's Sex Dungeon or whatever. Or you Slide Down the Fire Pole and end up in A Pool Full of Crocodiles. Renaming the links might be a little too fancy to be easily done, but that's just an idea there.



I'm pretty sure I didn't mention either sex or dungeons. Just passages. No sex, no dungeons. Mentioned. As such. But since you mention it, welcome to my (I guess) sex dungeons. Do I still get the licence? Get the dough anytime someone uses it?


 
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monsterzero
 Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 04:54 AM UTC  
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You'd pretty much just need to change the output from "Enter [roomname]" to "[linkname]". Same idea with the floorspaces, instead of outputting "Floor Space Available," output "[sleepspot] Available".

Yeah, you know how clans can change the word "says" to another word in their chatspace? (FNORDclan favors the word "boggles".) I'd definitely like to be able to change the word "Enter" to something else.

E.g. you could click on "Pick up Land Mine" or "Crawl through Tiny Doorway". Or "Pull My Finger".


 
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Gorbert
 Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 07:15 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Mr+Geppetto


Storage. At first I say "Yay!". Then, after thinking a bit more I'm all against it. Regular item storage a no-no, for reasons better stated above. Construction material storage, I'd incline towards no, as well, for the risk of getting your materials stolen will make you plan ahead and make building more of a communal effort. I'm also against identifying/punishing thieves, either by the game or by the players. It's a jungle, people, materials get stolen sometimes even from organized building sites. For all your character knows, those 3 logs could have been removed by a monster or a mischievous Watcher. It happened to me, as well, it was unpleasant but hey, I work around it.



Storage would be terribly unbalancing, I agree that it's a bad idea for any kind of materials. However, I still think that a form of punishment should happen. Mr. Geppetto, you say that materials sometimes get stolen even from organized building sites. And the thieves are sometimes caught and punished. I mean no offense, but I don't think it makes sense to say that thievery is acceptable because it could plausibly happen, but any kind of risk, which is also plausible, shouldn't happen.

Aside from my stance that "it should exist because it would make sense," there's also a game balancing aspect. Dan works very hard to make sure that no one has an unfair advantage in this game, but the way things are, people who are inclined to steal have a bit of an advantage over those who don't want to steal. It doesn't ruin the game, certainly, but I feel that there should be a bit of balance to it. A risk to thieves. I mean, every improbable jungle event has a risk: Stonehenge, River, Ferryman and the jungle trail can all send you straight to the Failboat, and the other ones have smaller penalties as well, to balance out the potential payoffs.

*heaves sigh And, after all of that reasoned arguing, this is going to seem stupid: I also fully realize that we can't have a system for punishing thieves. I can't think of anything that could work--at least, not anything that isn't unreasonably complicated. So, the point of all of my annoying ranting is that, while nothing suggested so far would work, if someone can come up with a system that does works, I think it definitely should be implemented.

I'd like to hear others opinions on this. Sorry 'bout the long discourse.


 
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Mr Geppetto
 Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 02:01 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Gorbert

Quote by: Mr+Geppetto


Storage. At first I say "Yay!". Then, after thinking a bit more I'm all against it. Regular item storage a no-no, for reasons better stated above. Construction material storage, I'd incline towards no, as well, for the risk of getting your materials stolen will make you plan ahead and make building more of a communal effort. I'm also against identifying/punishing thieves, either by the game or by the players. It's a jungle, people, materials get stolen sometimes even from organized building sites. For all your character knows, those 3 logs could have been removed by a monster or a mischievous Watcher. It happened to me, as well, it was unpleasant but hey, I work around it.



Storage would be terribly unbalancing, I agree that it's a bad idea for any kind of materials. However, I still think that a form of punishment should happen. Mr. Geppetto, you say that materials sometimes get stolen even from organized building sites. And the thieves are sometimes caught and punished. I mean no offense, but I don't think it makes sense to say that thievery is acceptable because it could plausibly happen, but any kind of risk, which is also plausible, shouldn't happen.

Aside from my stance that "it should exist because it would make sense," there's also a game balancing aspect. Dan works very hard to make sure that no one has an unfair advantage in this game, but the way things are, people who are inclined to steal have a bit of an advantage over those who don't want to steal. It doesn't ruin the game, certainly, but I feel that there should be a bit of balance to it. A risk to thieves. I mean, every improbable jungle event has a risk: Stonehenge, River, Ferryman and the jungle trail can all send you straight to the Failboat, and the other ones have smaller penalties as well, to balance out the potential payoffs.

*heaves sigh And, after all of that reasoned arguing, this is going to seem stupid: I also fully realize that we can't have a system for punishing thieves. I can't think of anything that could work--at least, not anything that isn't unreasonably complicated. So, the point of all of my annoying ranting is that, while nothing suggested so far would work, if someone can come up with a system that does works, I think it definitely should be implemented.

I'd like to hear others opinions on this. Sorry 'bout the long discourse.



Actually, I quite agree with you. It was more or less what I meant in my own ranting, only expressed it quite badly. I had a reference in my mind to the discussion earlier on this subject and the proposed ways for punishment. I am against those, not against any form of retribution, although it doesn't seem such a big issue to me, I see how it can be unbalancing. I guess I don't take thieving seriously because I cannot imagine how someone would deliberately do that (in-game, I mean, not RL; in RL I come from an area where stealing is common occurence, unfortunately, and punishment seldom happens). I might have this idealized image of the I.I., where it's just a confusion or mistake, that someone pick up logs or stones they didn't harvest.


 
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Dulcibella
 Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 06:33 PM UTC  
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Here's one possibly workable solution, though it depends on key implementation: Every land plot comes with moderately capacious storage shed in which building materials can be deposited. Perhaps the shed also must be built in order to appear. They cannot be truly locked, but a key to the shed lets you have access to its contents with impunity. It is still possible to drop logs/rock on a random spot on the map, but most folks will use their shed. Thieves know this... and, of course, The Watcher knows all.

Thus: Picking up materials on the map is still an option, and folks who enjoy maxing their skills can leave stuff around to be found by the lucky. Folks inclined to do some stealing from the material-rich sheds have to go to the dwelling and sneak into the shed by picking the lock, or via some loose board around the back, or somesuch. Whether there is an external readout of the shed contents ("Looking through the grimy window, you can see...") for both users and thieves is also an option.

Once the game is able to track shed break-ins, the manner of punishment can be addressed. Thieves always run the risk of being observed by other players and ostracized in-game (is this actually happening?) but there can be an actual gameplay consequence. My pick would be for a certain percentage chance that the Watcher erases your Failboat credit, since she sees what you are doing and (presumably?) disapproves. Habitual thieves will likely never accumulate enough credit to get a blessing, and basically have to succeed on the Failboat the old-fashioned way to get back to the island. Once a day.

This system seems to fit fairly well with dwellings as they now exist (the shed is basically an extension, independently lockable, from other rooms) although I don't know how tricky coding the storage abilities would be. I imagine it would be sort of like a very large dwelling-based backpack that only accepts logs and stones.

The wildcard is when and how keys turn out to work. Individual contestants who want to let anybody and everybody who stops by help out with their construction might find it untenable if they have to pay ciggies, for example, per key to be cut. I doubt clans would find it too much of a hurdle. (I suppose if locking the shed in the first place is optional, folks who would rather have open access can essentially use the same system as is now in place, only with less confusion about what materials were harvested for what dwelling on a map square.)


 
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Dulcibella
 Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 07:44 PM UTC  
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Other thoughts (sorry, once my mind gets spinning it keeps it up for a while):

-Instead of the Watcher penalty above, each instance of theft gives you a "guilty bastard" combat debuff? 5-10 more turns of guilt-ridden, moderately impaired thwacking for every break-in?

-Thievery medals! Bwahahahaha!

What I think I like best about the outlined system is that there is no more "accidental" theft. If you have to sneak in and pick a lock to get to the paydirt, you KNOW you've made the choice.


 
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talkydoor
 Saturday, March 13 2010 @ 10:53 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Dulcibella

=
Once the game is able to track shed break-ins, the manner of punishment can be addressed. My pick would be for a certain percentage chance that the Watcher erases your Failboat credit, since she sees what you are doing and (presumably?) disapproves. Habitual thieves will likely never accumulate enough credit to get a blessing, and basically have to succeed on the Failboat the old-fashioned way to get back to the island. Once a day.



Blatant prejudice against midgets! Razz


 
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tehdave
 Sunday, March 14 2010 @ 06:47 AM UTC  
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Quote by: talkydoor

Quote by: Dulcibella

=
Once the game is able to track shed break-ins, the manner of punishment can be addressed. My pick would be for a certain percentage chance that the Watcher erases your Failboat credit, since she sees what you are doing and (presumably?) disapproves. Habitual thieves will likely never accumulate enough credit to get a blessing, and basically have to succeed on the Failboat the old-fashioned way to get back to the island. Once a day.



Blatant prejudice against midgets! Razz



Yeah, what she said! Especially since Midgets have a hard enough time as it is on the Failboat (WHY OH WHY!?!?!?)


Isn't sanity just a one-trick pony anyway? All you get is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, the sky's the limit.
 
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Dulcibella
 Monday, March 15 2010 @ 03:55 AM UTC  
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Well, there is a reason you don't run into Thieving Robot/Kittymorph/Joker/etc. Bastards out in the wilds. Some stereotypes have roots in truth, yes? Mr. Green

As for added Failboat prejudice, it wouldn't come into play if one avoided stealing.

Or do we want to discuss exempting midgets from this punishment, since they are (A) apparently already punished by default because The Watcher is prejudiced and (2) basically expected to be shameless larcenists?


 
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Reverb
 Wednesday, March 17 2010 @ 01:20 PM UTC  
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Completely off topic, but i was wondering; Do stakes survive a DK? As in, while in the backpack? Backpack items tend to be blown to smithereens, but it ís a ciggie-bought item.


"Censure acquits the Raven, but pursues the Dove." "So, that means i'm -always- innocent, right?"
 
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Kash
 Saturday, March 20 2010 @ 09:15 AM UTC  
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This is a bit less related to Dwellings than to the process of gathering materials, but... Would it be a terrible idea to have the default be for logs/stone to be dropped directly to the map? I understand that it may very slightly increases the risk of materials being stolen; but then again, who actually holds all that stuff in their backpack while gathering it? Perhaps I'm the odd one out, but I prefer the not-overload-my-backpack method of efficient stamina use, and the Cut Wood -> Show Inventory -> Drop Log -> World Map -> Repeat process gets a little tiring. I don't imagine any real lumberjack cutting down a tree and then pointlessly picking it up if he's just going to set it down and chop down another tree right after.

The only reason I can think of for keeping the current system is that it would keep someone from just sitting on the same square as a logger and picking up each log they cut down as they cut it down. Which seems to me a very improbable situation. Besides, if it becomes too much of a problem, it shouldn't be too hard to add a "Pick Up Log" option to the Cut Wood module page, right? Which would increase the time that the log is on the ground and vulnerable from 0 seconds (current system) to one or two seconds (which is very little time in terms of people randomly stealing things).


 
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SinkOrSwim
 Thursday, March 25 2010 @ 02:00 PM UTC  
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I'd like to see some storage or some way around this.

Mainly because, for the first time, some thieving little git has nicked a load of logs from my plot, while I was away on a new day, picking up a kit to nail 'em into place.

If I catch up with them, I'll... write them a strongly worded letter.


... Grace is just the measure of a fall ...
 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, March 25 2010 @ 06:56 PM UTC  
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Sink, I've had that happen to me seven or eight times, now. I must have lost at least a hundred, maybe two hundred, logs or stones. My initial reaction each time has been murderous, coupled with a strong, "Damn it, this is intolerable! There's got to be some way to stop it!" Particularly aggravating if I hadn't even left the square, just put a huge load down in order to pick up a few at a time and apply them.

But... a funny thing happened. I'd grit my teeth, go get more stone or wood -- whatever was stolen -- and run through however many more new-day cycles were needed to make up the stamina loss. As the completion bar turned green, anger would fade to muttering.

And... oddly enough, as soon as the project was complete, somehow the theft turned into an obstacle that I overcame. Now it actually increases my sense of pride when I look at the finished job.

So. If storage is added, later... I think those of us who have done a lot of building under these conditions, tensely looking over our shoulders for thieves with every log or stone, are going to be telling newcomers, "Man, you should have been here in the old days. We had to haul the stone for building on our knees. In the snow. Uphill. Both ways!" Cool


 
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SinkOrSwim
 Thursday, March 25 2010 @ 08:12 PM UTC  
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That's mainly what I'm doing, Sessine. It's irritating, but there's a block of trees just two squares away, so hell, I'll just cut myself some more. That said, the Improbability-infused soil must be great for growing stuff. I'm sure I must have completely deforested one hectare of best building-grade Scots Pine by now.

Here's a moral dilemma for you all though. I've just noticed, on a walkabout, there is a pile of logs just one square away from my plot, with exactly the number I had stockpiled. There's no stake on the land visible.

Do I:
a) take them, assuming someone's just been playing silly buggers and moved my stockpile? Or;
b) leave them alone, assuming I might be getting neighbours some time?

Answers on a postcard to The Swamp, please.

On a different note, I love this. As Gorbert said, a great sense of satisfaction, even in just finishing one room. There's only a couple of us working on The Swamp, so it's hard work, but even to just complete that first room, attain Shack status, and sit basking in the daylight streaming through the badly-nailed-up clapboard, cup of tea in hand, is fantastic

Huge thanks Joe and the mods who've worked on this. You've made a werewolf very happy.


... Grace is just the measure of a fall ...
 
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Count Sessine
 Thursday, March 25 2010 @ 09:53 PM UTC  
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I'd sure like to take some of the credit for Dwellings, because they're great -- but I can't. They're all CavemanJoe's imagination and hard work.

I am so impressed by the outpouring of creativity they've elicited, too. It's an education to wander the Island, now, peeking behind unlocked doors to see what might have changed since the last time you were there. The World Map has an entirely different feel to it -- it's populated. It's a real landscape. There are marvels to be discovered!


 
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Bernard
 Friday, March 26 2010 @ 01:05 AM UTC  
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Umn... Excuse me? I've had an idea.

Okay, accepting what Sessine says (and bless him, that hair shirt looks good on him) but...

It is a problem for many.

So - what is the answer? Well, telling players just who is doing the naughties isn't going to work, Sessine (in hair shirt) is right - it will lead to sadness and drama - so - the answer is to penalize those who want to participate in something that goes against the Island's ideals.

In most other aspects of Island life, those who don't sign up to the agreed moral conventions of the Island are punished/ ostracised/ removed - why not make it so for people who steal?

How? I'm not sure - I'm no coder (is that the term?) but - can people picking up ALL logs or stones on an Island square be queried in some way? Remove the PICK UP ALL function. Make it more of a chore for people?

I'm not suggesting this is the answer - but surely penalising people who do want to go against all of the agreed and workable conventions find that karma comes back and bites them on the arse.

Like a rabid beagle.


 
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Anonymous: Sarda
 Friday, March 26 2010 @ 02:54 AM UTC  


Any way at all to code it so that logs + stones don't become visible to others until the one who chopped/mined them says they should? Like if the person doesn't want them to be picked up by anyone else, then they just don't click the thing that says "Leave a note on the pile saying Take As You Wish" or something like that, and anyone walking by doesn't notice them(improbably). If the note has been left, then anyone can take the pile, and they appear as "There is a pile of X logs here, with a note on them saying Take As You Wish."

People can still steal them, but not unless the person is working with someone else and left the note so they could take them.


 
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Mack
 Friday, March 26 2010 @ 04:05 AM UTC  
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The best solution I can think of would be to have a timer on the items. Make them only appear to the person who dropped for a certain period of time. Maybe an hour, or until your tool box gets returned. That would prevent people from stealing the logs you're planning on using immediately.


You can toast them, but it's dark magic. - MotPax on hotdog buns.
 
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Hairy Mary
 Friday, March 26 2010 @ 02:19 PM UTC  
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Quote by: SinkOrSwim


Here's a moral dilemma for you all though. I've just noticed, on a walkabout, there is a pile of logs just one square away from my plot, with exactly the number I had stockpiled. There's no stake on the land visible.

Do I:
a) take them, assuming someone's just been playing silly buggers and moved my stockpile? Or;
b) leave them alone, assuming I might be getting neighbours some time?

Answers on a postcard to The Swamp, please.



It's possible that they were found by a new rookie. Put yourself in their position. You're exploring the map, and find these things that you can pick up. What would you do? Move one square, and realise that you're suddenly using a huge amoint of stamina, and drop them all again? I don't know for sure, but I think that that's a possibility.

So. What I would do is leave them for a RL day, then take them back again.


 
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SinkOrSwim
 Friday, March 26 2010 @ 10:23 PM UTC  
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Pretty much what I did, Mary. I left them for a fair while and then took them back.

< looks to whatever deity werewolves aspire to be reunited with >

If those were someone else's, please forgive me.

< makes himself a brew and wanders off, deity suitably appeased >


... Grace is just the measure of a fall ...
 
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