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Count Sessine
 Friday, April 23 2010 @ 07:02 PM UTC (Read 8756 times)  
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What should happen to a dwelling if the account that owns it is, for whatever reason, deleted?

If it's only a stake in the ground, hey, that's easy: go ahead and delete the thing. Undeveloped land claims can expire with the claimant.

But, what if it's a beautifully developed site that's an asset to the game? What if two players have put equal effort into making a home and then one of them, the one who put the stake in the ground, quits playing the game? What if it's a joint clan project? What if, later on, it's got an Improbable Labs function hooked into it that is so good it's become an integral part of the game? (Um, okay... admittedly that last one is unlikely; anyone who has ever had the level of commitment to the game needed to do that has probably acquired a permanent character somehow, but still.)

So if we're talking about rules: a developed site should not be automatically deleted.

And because the game can't distinguish between Dunbernarding (or Nepeta Halt!) and a junk hut created by someone who was just fiddling around and then lost interest... over time, we are going to accumulate un-owned buildings: some that may be very valuable, and others that would need, er, extensive remodeling.

Just leaving such a dwelling in place as an un-owned orphan isn't ideal. Sure... it's still there to visit, but it's going to fill up with ghosts (see bug thread), and it can never be expanded or changed in any way. That's very sad for other players who may still want to think of that place as their home or their clan hall.

An ability to voluntarily transfer ownership to someone else would solve some of this. (Allowing joint ownership, instead or as well, would be even better, but might be technically difficult.) All the same, many who leave the game are not going to bother to dispose of their properties.

The old Season One dwellings had a feature where orphaned dwellings could be bought by other characters. (And, let me tell you, some of them were great bargains!) That's one option.

Or, more interestingly... maybe after a grace period they could be sold at public auction?


 
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Xith
 Friday, April 23 2010 @ 07:28 PM UTC  
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[quoteThe old Season One dwellings had a feature where orphaned dwellings could be bought by other characters. (And, let me tell you, some of them were great bargains!) That's one option.

Or, more interestingly... maybe after a grace period they could be sold at public auction?[/quote]

Useful idea. Maybe add a Real Estate office or something to one of the outposts? Rather than everything being done at Suzie's hardware store. Being able to purchase or receive another contestants dwelling would be quite useful, especially on some of those prime plots of land that already have all four spaces taken, but by people who may no longer play. The auction Idea would be pretty awesome.

In a few months, I'll be leaving on a mission for my church and I'll have limited amount of time to play the game, so it'd be awesome to be able to transfer a dwelling to someone else who will be able to look after it better, so that the weather station I wanna build won't go unmanaged.


 
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Cousjava
 Friday, April 23 2010 @ 08:36 PM UTC  
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Perhaps you could leave a 'will', which means that if you leave the game your dwelling goes to someone else that you specify. If no-one is specified, then after, say, 7 real days, with somewhere in the outposts to tell you what is avalible. Then during the auction, everybody who wants it goes in and puts in a bid (in cigs, presumably) perhaps starting at 50. Each person who wants it puts in a bid, and they can put in another bid when the current highest bid (which would be displayed). If there are no bids in a certain period, perhaps an hour real time, then it goes to the highest bidder.


A table, a chair, a bowl of fruit and a trombone; what else does a man need to be happy?
 
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Chimental
 Friday, April 23 2010 @ 09:08 PM UTC  
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I have an idea that's more of a combination between 'finders keepers' and 'flip this house'.

When a player is deleted, their home's name instantly becomes 'future land plot' or something like that, and is open to all. When you enter the area, you'll see some of the Island's staff with Bulldozers and other construction equipment ready to tear down the large mansion and flatten the land for other contestants.

I'd say 150 cigs and maybe 25K req would cause them to 'overlook' this house.

When you own your new home, you would get the main room with all it's space upgrades, but the other rooms are basically Squat Hole in comparison, and none of the descriptions. (Too wrecked to tell what was what) There would be rats and peeling paint and mold (and that tire fire that just won't go out) and all that lovely stuff.

To actually be able to use these rooms, it would require a lot of stamina used in decorating. Maybe 75 actions for a two space room.


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Count Sessine
 Friday, April 23 2010 @ 09:50 PM UTC  
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You'd have to allow for an asynchronous bidding process, because, you know... time zones. And a longer time frame than just hours.

A silent auction, I think. You'd want the properties up for sale to be listed for a while before the start of the auction, to give people time to go look them over. Then the auction would start, and people could enter their bids. (They would have to have the cigs before the bid would be accepted, and that number of cigs would go into escrow? Details need to be worked out there!) Bids already entered would be listed next to the property. At the end of the bid period, maybe two or three calendar days? properties that had been bid on would go to the highest bidder. Properties with no bids would go back on the list in the next auction.

We might say that if a property remains unsold in... what, three successive auctions? then it would be system-deleted. That gives ample time for anyone who wants a given property to become aware that it's on the block, even if they aren't able to log in very often.

Could also have a "FOR SALE" sign added to the exterior description.

Edit: Oy there, Chimental! You got a Vogon somewhere under that cloak? ...Or did you maybe not read the reasons it would not be fair to delete (or wreck) a dwelling just because the player who initially hammered in the stake happened to lose interest in the game?


 
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Chimental
 Friday, April 23 2010 @ 11:23 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine


Oy there, Chimental! You got a Vogon somewhere under that cloak? ...Or did you maybe not read the reasons it would not be fair to delete (or wreck) a dwelling just because the player who initially hammered in the stake happened to lose interest in the game?



I'm not saying an abandoned house would be destroyed, I'm saying it looks like it's about to be. If you decline the guy's offer and leave, someone else can take the offer two days, two weeks, two minutes after you head out. Sure, someone could swipe it from you, but with such a high price to claim it, you know it's not going to be some Newblood with a spork who decides to play on the beach and finds an abandoned 20 room bungalow.

But yes, I think someone should be able to give ownership of a plot to someone else if they decide to quit or even if it's a gift. If they don't, well, the above happens.

And furthermore, with the amount of parodies I've written about the island, I'd like to think I am the writer of the fourth worst poetry in the universe. And I have more sex appeal too...not by much, but it's more!


I make the many models of a mutant individual. To make them I use vegetables, animals, and minerals. From robot bugs to zombie bears to many singing barnacles.
 
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Count Sessine
 Saturday, April 24 2010 @ 12:33 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Chimental

Quote by: Count+Sessine


Oy there, Chimental! You got a Vogon somewhere under that cloak? ...Or did you maybe not read the reasons it would not be fair to delete (or wreck) a dwelling just because the player who initially hammered in the stake happened to lose interest in the game?

I'm not saying an abandoned house would be destroyed, I'm saying it looks like it's about to be. If you decline the guy's offer and leave, someone else can take the offer two days, two weeks, two minutes after you head out. Sure, someone could swipe it from you, but with such a high price to claim it, you know it's not going to be some Newblood with a spork who decides to play on the beach and finds an abandoned 20 room bungalow.

But yes, I think someone should be able to give ownership of a plot to someone else if they decide to quit or even if it's a gift. If they don't, well, the above happens.

And furthermore, with the amount of parodies I've written about the island, I'd like to think I am the writer of the fourth worst poetry in the universe. And I have more sex appeal too...not by much, but it's more!

Mn, well. The real reason someone would want to take over a particular dwelling, what makes it unique and valuable, isn't the number of rooms, for all that initial part takes so much work. Nor even the location, really, though that's closer. It's the creative conception -- the text -- that makes one place into a haunted mansion, another a living tree house, and a third, a well-defended fortress.

If the creator of the Abandoned Waystation ever decides to quit the Island, I, first of all, don't want it to disappear, or be trashed. I would guess there's a whole long queue of people who would love to take it over to keep it safe. Not because they'd want to own it, so much, but because if it wasn't there, we'd all be the losers. There are many gems like that, not all of them written by people with permanent accounts.

Another thing is, quite a few of these creations are group efforts, treated as home by more than one person. Yes, the nominal owner really ought to turn the place over to someone else before leaving (and ought to be able to do so), but it doesn't seem right to penalize others in the group for a departing player's carelessness.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Saturday, April 24 2010 @ 03:09 AM UTC  
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Entirely agree with everything that Sessine (and others) are saying.

Case in point. Daedalus has recently left leaving behind him a building which was explicitly a clan project. This wasn't very far advanced, it's got two rooms, one of which has a couple of extra sleeping spaces, the other of which is undecorated. I'd like to take this over and keep on going with it. I was thinking of starting again on the same space and building a copy, but this still leaves the problem of the original which is then just goping to stand there neglected. I'd far prefer to take over the original, even if I ended up paying the same price in cigs and req for it. It's just the feel of the thing.

I think the idea of an auction is best, with a minimum price for it, although I think that the minimum price should depend on how many rooms/sleeping spaces it has, and how much decorating. I agree with Sessein, keeping the decoration is essential, that's what really gives most places their character, and we wouldn't want to lose that.

Don't have much more to add than that, just thought that I'd voice my agreement.


 
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Kash
 Saturday, April 24 2010 @ 07:29 PM UTC  
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I think that implementing a Statutory Will system (where the owner designates a beneficiary in case of deletion) should be prioritized before the Auction system for a couple of reasons:

1) It allows the player more choice in what to do with their property. Especially with the larger or more famous properties, this could be an issue if we went with an auction-only system. I imagine that places like Soup and Pants would be hotly contested in an auction... shoot, I'd bid in for it if I got the chance, and I'm rarely even in IC. But what if the owner wants to pass it on to a poor, underprivileged rookie as a grand display of the property's purpose, specifically despite the huge value of the place? Or another example, the clan project officially owned by Daedalus: under an auction system, there is no way to guarantee that the property will stay within the clan (other than ensuring that a clan member has enough cigarettes to outbid everyone else on the island, of course).

2) It allows a check against monopoly. Some people have the real-life time and cash to accumulate more cigs than others in-game. Let's say that Kash steals the Ferry and poles his way back to Texas, giving the Watcher the finger on his way out: He'll most likely want to leave his dugout in the care of BuckNasty just so Buck has to deal with being mildly cursed because he owns property on an ancient Chimental burial ground. But what if some other poor chap with enough cigs to buy a plot on every outpost square as soon as Dwellings are implemented (*cough cough*) decides he wants to snatch up the property when he sees it in Auction (because that is the only system that is implemented for transferring property)? Then that guy is cursed instead of Buck, and nobody wants that.

The auction system should be a back-up to catch all the properties that haven't been specifically left to someone else. A system implementing both methods of transferral would keep everyone as happy as everyone can be, I think.


 
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Hairy Mary
 Saturday, April 24 2010 @ 10:05 PM UTC  
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...Let's say that Kash steals the Ferry and poles his way back to Texas, giving the Watcher the finger on his way out...



Personally I'd pay good cigarettes just to see that.

On a more serious note, yes, I agree with Kash on this one. If someone wants to pick who they want to pass a property on to, then they should have that choice. Perhaps the recipient has to pay some sort of admin costs for it as well. Of course properties can only be transfered when the owners character is actually deleted, otherwise someone somewhere will find a way of using it in some sort of wealth transfer or other rule dodging way.

Also Sessine, you seemed to imply that if someone had a permanent account then it wouldn't be a problem. That's not strictly true. If someone has to leave the Island for RL reasons, then there's still no one looking after the dwelling. Just because it still belongs to an account doesn't make much difference, there's still no one looking after the dwelling.

At the moment, if someone leaves, then the dwelling stays behind as is. It just means that no one can start new build or decorate jobs, and no one can lock and unlock the doors.


 
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Ashtu
 Saturday, April 24 2010 @ 10:48 PM UTC  
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hehehehe. Anybody here own a piece of land in Second Life? That's what this is starting to sound like.


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Count Sessine
 Sunday, April 25 2010 @ 01:30 AM UTC  
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Possibly I'm not thinking deviously enough, but I don't see any reason players shouldn't be allowed to give a dwelling they put hard work and cigs into building, to anyone they please, any time they please.

See, the thing is, owning a dwelling isn't really that big a game advantage. You don't have to own a building to get the stamina boost -- there's no shortage of open rooms with vacant floor spots. You can only use one bed at a time. By now, with all the building that's gone on, you can duck under a roof to trigger a chronosphere almost anywhere on the Island.

If owners could choose to transfer their dwellings any time they liked, why, why... Help me out here, I'm having trouble coming up with any bad consequence.


 
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Reverb
 Sunday, April 25 2010 @ 12:18 PM UTC  
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Well for starters; the Skronky's are going to have a field day trying to bribe, bully, and extort as many buildings into their possession as they can get their grubby little hands on. There goes the neighborhood.


"Censure acquits the Raven, but pursues the Dove." "So, that means i'm -always- innocent, right?"
 
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Hairy Mary
 Sunday, April 25 2010 @ 12:26 PM UTC  
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Well I can't think of any bad consequences, but I'm really not a game player, and tend to play within what I consider to be the spirit of the game. A lot of people though seem to come up with all sorts of devious ideas, so I tend to assume that there will probably be one, just that I haven't seen it. Especially when it's something that involves the transfer of something between players.

But you're probably right, I can't even imagine any reason why a 100% game player would want a dwelling. As you say, the one game advantage it confers, the stamina boost for sleeping there, is open to anyone, and there's enough sleeping spaces around that you can always find one. It's not always just long enough to crack a chronosphere, some of us occasionally take time off the Island to sleep, or indulge in other such frivolities, but that doesn't really change matters. You can usually find somewhere to crash for the night, and know that you'll wake up there the next morning.

There has been some talk of extra features which might change things a little. But from the ones that I can recall having been mentioned, the only ones that give any game advantage sound like they'd be the same as the stamina advantage in that it would be easy enough to use someone elses dwelling for the purpose.

Having said that, they were made expensive to build for a reason. It would be circumventing that a bit if some big cig rich rank 7 player could build the first room and then give it over to someone else.


 
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Kash
 Sunday, April 25 2010 @ 04:33 PM UTC  
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[quote="Hairy Mary"]It would be circumventing that a bit if some big cig rich rank 7 player could build the first room and then give it over to someone else.[/quote]

No more "circumventing" than the whole concept of Location Four, in my opinion. Sure, you might end up with a rookie owning a seventeen room clan hall for a clan they have never heard of (in a worst-case scenario, of course) but at the same time we're already telling rookies who Horatio is and how to find him for tea and how many DKs are needed for which races and where to find mounts and and and... you get the picture. That is more against the spirit of the game, I believe, than passing on late-game knowledge; because the whole idea of the game is that you're dropped on the Island pantsless and witless and have to figure out how to survive after being a sales rep or waiter or nuclear weapons tester or whatever. Once you know how to build a dwelling, (the discovery aspect that is so key in the first few DKs,) it's just a matter of collecting inane numbers of cigs and spending untold caches of req on one-shots to get those kits and supplies from place to place.


 
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Count Sessine
 Sunday, April 25 2010 @ 05:55 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Kash

No more "circumventing" than the whole concept of Location Four, in my opinion. Sure, you might end up with a rookie owning a seventeen room clan hall for a clan they have never heard of (in a worst-case scenario, of course) but at the same time we're already telling rookies who Horatio is and how to find him for tea and how many DKs are needed for which races and where to find mounts and and and... you get the picture. That is more against the spirit of the game, I believe, than passing on late-game knowledge; because the whole idea of the game is that you're dropped on the Island pantsless and witless and have to figure out how to survive after being a sales rep or waiter or nuclear weapons tester or whatever. Once you know how to build a dwelling, (the discovery aspect that is so key in the first few DKs,) it's just a matter of collecting inane numbers of cigs and spending untold caches of req on one-shots to get those kits and supplies from place to place.

Location Four exists because you can't stop players from asking questions about game mechanics.

Before it was created, the same questions were being asked over and over again in NewHome, Kittania, the Common Ground, Improbable Central, clan halls... not even CC404 was immune to the plague. Now, questioners can be directed to L4, people who want the discovery experience are not subjected to spoilers, and veterans who happen to be in a patient, question-answering mood drop in there often enough that no question goes unanswered for long.
Quote by: Hairy Mary

...they were made expensive to build for a reason. It would be circumventing that a bit if some big cig rich rank 7 player could build the first room and then give it over to someone else.

I hear you. Altruism is fun for the giver, but it can get out of hand. We don't want to go back to casual Season One style giveaways. On the other hand, a dwelling that has been lovingly crafted and detailed is not going to be given away lightly. It would always be a meaningful gift -- which is not a bad thing.

Perhaps there could be a minimum number of decorated rooms required before the owner could give it away? Not a lot -- two, perhaps. Maybe even only one. Just something that would require the giver to invest some personality as well as cigs and stamina.


 
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Jon Bishop
 Monday, April 26 2010 @ 03:40 AM UTC  
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Agree It would be great to give a house over to someone else. Or perhaps even have multiple owners, so if one player leaves for good, there is no problem.

Regarding auctions....maybe. It's great that a dwelling would survive after someone leaves and doesn't have a will, but it would be strange, to me, if just anyone claimed ownership of a very special plot of land. Still preferable to losing the dwelling altogether, I suppose.


 
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Akogi
 Monday, April 26 2010 @ 04:55 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Hairy+Mary

It would be circumventing that a bit if some big cig rich rank 7 player could build the first room and then give it over to someone else.



Here's an idea. What about if the person who is receiving a gifted dwelling would have to either already own a dwelling OR have so many DKs, something like 2 or 3 DKs OR pay so many cigs, maybe half the cost before the actual transfer of ownership could occur.


 
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Dulcibella
 Monday, April 26 2010 @ 05:02 AM UTC  
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Silent auctions are definitely the way to make it work.

Until wills and such would be implemented, I wish there was a way to demonstrate merit for claiming a property... but of course that would require adjudication of some sort, which could potentially mean a crapload of frivolous work for our dear mods. (Hmm... unless we'd want to set up an in-game legal system... contestants running for judgeships... smear campaigns and stump speeches... Nah, things would spiral out of control pretty quickly. Let's stick with enlightened despotism, it's working pretty well so far.)

Of course, all this wishful thinking is merely due to the fact that I have a particular plot in mind. Extra-prime real-estate, currently filling up with ghosts, started up by an ex-clannie who has since fallen off the face of the Island... and I did contribute a modicum of sweat equity. Unless I have a way to make my case as a prime ownership candidate, I guess I'll be saving cigs in the hope that I'll stand a chance if and when auctions get rolling!


 
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Hairy Mary
 Monday, April 26 2010 @ 08:34 PM UTC  
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I think the recipient of a dwelling should have to pay something in the way of cigs/req. Possibly dependent on how big the place was, how much decoration it had.

Extra merit for claims? Yes Dulcibella's right. That would be quite good, but it's hard to imagine some way of doing that automatically. I'll try anyway. This is a rather tentative idea here.

Three reasons for extra merit in a claim, are
I) That you helped to build the place.
II) You belong to the same clan as the owner did.
III) You were married to the owner.

Is it possible to know how much any one person contributed in terms of decorating or building? If so, then for each bidder, compute a number.

Count 1 for each piece of decorating they did. Count 2 for each piece of wood they added. Count 3 for each piece of stone added. Now you have a number. Multiply this by 1.5 if they're in the same clan, and then by 2 if they were married.

Now treat this number as a percentage, and give this as a bonus in auctions.

Example. Dwelling goes on the market. Person A bids 180 cigs. Person B bids 150 cigs. Person A was in the same clan as the original owner, and contributed 20 stone 60 wood and did 100 decorating turns. Person B was in the same clan and married to the owner and contributed 10 stone, 30 wood and 100 decorating turns.

So A's multiplier is (100 + 60x2 + 20x3)x1.5 = 420. Their bid counts as 180 + 180x(420/100) = 936
B's multiplier is (100 + 30x2 + 10x3)x1.5x2 = 570. Their bid counts as 150 + 150x(570/100) = 1005

Person B wins the auction and pays 150 cigs for their new dwelling.

I picked those numbers more or less off the top of my head, they can of course be fiddled with. They seem a bit high in this example to be honest. I've no idea how possible this is but maybe something of the sort is possible. There should definitely be a minimum payment of 100 cigs.

Does this make any sort of sense to people?


 
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