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 Getting past Onslaught to the Scrapyard
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Piobaire
 Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 06:09 PM UTC  
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I was going to quote Fledermaus (mous? You expect me to remember spelling from a previous page? Bah!), but I'm getting the "you must be logged in blahblahblah" as well. I've got to agree that breaches are no fun for the newish player. They're not even that fun for me with my magnificent (heh) 8 DKs under my belt. I'm currently playing a midget and even with a mount, I'm burning a large amount of stamina to get to someplace like CC. By the time I get there, there's only a limited number of kills I can make before I'm flat out of stamina, no place in CC to buy food to try and increase it and, even if there were, it'd likely be closed due to the breach. I'm at level 2, so buying a huge number of Rat Packs or spray to avoid some of the stamina-killing fights before I get there isn't feasible and an OST is right out. When I was newer, add in the repeating cycle of "breach--fight--accumulate req but can't bank it--accumulate xp--die--failboat, lose req and xp--start all over and do it five more times, and it wasn't any fun at all.

I really like the emergency transport idea. Some way to get us to a breach with enough stamina to actually do something would be terrific. I'd hate to see onslaughts totally removed; even though I haven't been brave enough to dive into the deep-end of the pool (story), I like the RP idea of it. And Titans are kind of fun. I've never actually taken one down, mind you, but even getting a few good hits on one is fun.


 
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Lunatick
 Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 09:37 PM UTC  
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Personally, I'd rather a way OUT.


I love spambots: I'm in mania to here Tickled pink as thwack to obligation on a glimpse of you all
 
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Kikuru
 Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 10:13 PM UTC  
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I don't know if it's a result of recent changes, or contestants ramping up the outpost defense, but at the moment there are zero breached outposts! Big Grin


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Wednesday, March 28 2012 @ 10:48 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Kikuru

I don't know if it's a result of recent changes, or contestants ramping up the outpost defense, but at the moment there are zero breached outposts! Big Grin


CC404 is even in Peaceful Days! How cool is that?!


 
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fledermaus
 Thursday, March 29 2012 @ 11:03 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Piobaire

I was going to quote Fledermaus (mous? You expect me to remember spelling from a previous page? Bah!), but I'm getting the "you must be logged in blahblahblah" as well.



Caching issue, for me at least: Forcing the browser to reload the
page when I'm at a spurious "you must be logged in" warning seems
to do the trick.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Sunday, April 01 2012 @ 09:47 AM UTC  
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Quote by: fledermaus

Quote by: Piobaire

I was going to quote Fledermaus (mous? You expect me to remember spelling from a previous page? Bah!), but I'm getting the "you must be logged in blahblahblah" as well.



Caching issue, for me at least: Forcing the browser to reload the
page when I'm at a spurious "you must be logged in" warning seems
to do the trick.



Yep. Every time I log in to make a post, I have to press Ctrl+F5 in order for it to be successful.

-----



Frustration has a place in gameplay. People can play games to relax, and people can play games to challenge themselves. It's not a binary either--I might want the challenge of precise Timed Fighting and heavy strategy, or to just focus on strategy, or to finish my dwelling, or to just grind through mobs in order to finish this DK and start the next. Relax and challenge can both be different aspects within the same game. Anyone who's played World of Warcraft has experienced frantic dungeon-diving and then a nice relaxing stroll through town to just chat, craft, and run between the Auction House and the Bank with no other purpose.

Frustration has no place when people seek relaxing gameplay. Frustration has a delicate place when people seek challenging gameplay. The purpose of frustration is to encourage people away from something, not to discourage people from playing the game altogether. "Encouraging people away from something" is most commonly "don't die". You have punishments/penalties for dying, as a loss condition, to exhort people into not dying. You want to make them use their smarts and determination to avoid the loss condition--that's basically the fun of a challenging game.

Frustration discourages people if they hit the loss condition again and again and again and again, and they'll give up temporarily (and often permanently). You don't want this in your game, unless you have something for the player to do as an alternate thing (like a relaxation area for just chatting, crafting, and running around...) that keeps them playing the game. So you want a scenario where the loss penalty is strong enough to motivate players into "winning", but not so strong that a losing player will outright be unhappy. Amnesia: The Dark Descent will actually make the game easier if you continually die, but then release the monster again right after you pass the difficult part, so you still feel the surprise and consequent horror.



Currently, Onslaught seems like it doesn't strattle that line properly. It's too difficult to keep all the cities afloat for the general populace of the game, and consequently a whole bunch of people have tired of losing again and again (in this case, losing is not dying but is just "not being able to go to CC404") and are getting sick of the game world overall. Onslaught needs to be redesigned, and my opinion is that it needs a fundamental redesign.

So now my two cents:

I think Onslaught needs to be spaced out. It needs to occur once per week in one city. When it happens, it will be a fast-escalating motherfucker that awards LOTS of extra goodies--it'll almost be like a festival for players, people should be asking "Where's Darkmoon Faire the Onslaught happening right now? I want to brain some heads and foot some legs!" And if an insufficient force meets the Onslaught and the monsters win, then for the ONE DAY, the city will be inaccessible. And the next day, no more monsters are added to the fray, so a clean-up crew can evict any remaining monsters and rebuild the city, and the city will be usable until maybe the next occasion, a month away.


 
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Clueless
 Tuesday, April 17 2012 @ 02:24 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+FredSo now my two cents:

I think Onslaught needs to be spaced out. It needs to occur once per week in one city. When it happens, it will be a fast-escalating motherfucker that awards LOTS of extra goodies--it'll almost be like a festival for players, people should be asking "Where's Darkmoon Faire the Onslaught happening right now? I want to brain some heads and foot some legs!" And if an insufficient force meets the Onslaught and the monsters win, then for the ONE DAY, the city will be inaccessible. And the next day, no more monsters are added to the fray, so a clean-up crew can evict any remaining monsters and rebuild the city, and the city will be usable until maybe the next occasion, a month away.[/p]



Alright, time to add a few cents of my own, since I just had a thought on Das Fail Boot (No gremlins were harmed, this time), and the thought just kept on growing until here I came again.. It's a bit of a read, but I hope it's a good one, and down at the Hunting paragraph I have an idea that doesn't require the rest of this to be implemented either, so give that a look if you think the rest is full of bollocks.

Here's the trick- We want something like a Breach, but don't want all the northern outposts and NP to suffer greatly for it. However we don't want it to be a freebie 'come here for XP' either, right? There still has to be the chance that an outpost will get fucked up, but not quite so badly.

My proposal is to change the way that breaches happens in the first place, a slow steady build up of monsters (threat), and the walls slowly degrading? It can still happen, but scale it way down, make it background, something that comes into play later (getting there!). Instead it should be one great push by the monsters, a swarm, with momentum, more like an army, perhaps with a warboss of some sort, one big badass with dreams to be Ghengis Khan or somesuch. This swarm starts to build up, in the jungles, or swamps, the larger it gets the further away it is noticeable from. Once it reaches a large enough size it begins it's march towards it's outpost of choice, and starts to wear away at the walls much faster than the Interesting Times threat level, and in proportion to the group's current population, slower if it's size is reduced by players. If it drops below a minimum size while travelling the swarm will retreat to the nearest jungle/swamp to reinforce, or perhaps just sit there and reinforce.. I like the idea of it retreating because then players can, even if they don't destroy it, get the feeling of pushing back the enemy.

Once the outpost is Invaded (New term to prevent confusion), after the walls have fallen, reinforcements may slowly build up, like Breaches now, but slower. And/Or reinforcement groups, led by a lieutenant, will spawn, similar to the first group, either in the same original square, or nearby, and follows the same pattern of grow/movement/stop/retreat as the first. These will be far smaller, and so easier to dissuade from joining the frey, providing another option for players to make a dent in the enemy without slaying a thousand monsters singlehandedly. Optional- If an outpost has been taken, the walls breached, and the group's size it reduced low enough they will retreat, if some of the Leaders remain,, to recuperate.

When fighting the groups there is a small chance of encountering it's Warboss, or Lieutenant for the reinforcement groups. Killing this foe disbands the group. If in an Invaded outpost, however, the monsters stay, but will not be reinforced by another group anymore unless one already exists and makes it to the outpost. The main group should probably have a backup leader, a Captain, but killing a leader will still dishearten the enemy, giving it a penalty to atk/def/hp for quite some time, or until it is dealt with. The Leaders, I'd figure, would have extra Req and Ciggies on them, perhaps some eBoys items, with a chance to access your inventory to discard/transfer items if you need to so that you're not overweight.. Thanks to a convenient lull in the battle from you slaying such a powerful foe of course!


I propose that the Warboss be the equivalent of a lv16 final Dan Quest monster in strength, with the Captains and Lieutenants being lv14/12s, and the equivalent to the non-final monsters. Or perhaps scale it to player level, but for these foes I think set levels... Maybe +/- 2 or so. Or maybe they get weaker as the group decreases in size? Loss in pride and prestige due to their army being annihilated.. I figure that anything being a Warboss or other Leader would be of sufficient intelligence for them to matter to them.

Potential options- Before the Invasion, and perhaps during it, but before the Outpost is taken, when the group is encountered have ranges of 'hunting', similar to how hunting is normally, except in bands of 5 levels or so. Go for the fodder/scouts lvls 1-5 or so, more experienced and fiercer looking monsters 5-10, and the veterans 10-15, all of these being averages, with the chance of higher/lower level monsters appearing. This should enable younger/newer players to have a chance, unlike in breaches where a level 5 or so can get jumped by a lv17 (or was it 16?) TigerShark Goddess and get their ass handed to them. This being said there are only so many of each band of monster in the group, you can't hunt the easy ones into the ground and call it a day.. But having any of the three populations drop too low will cause the group to attempt reinforcement. Taking out the Leaders should also slow movement of the group, and the rate at which it can tear down walls.

I recommend the first group be.. Say about 1.5k monsters, that's what it builds up to before setting out for an outpost, reinforcement groups about 300-500 monsters. And, as has been mentioned before, they are attracted to populous outposts. That's where there'd be the most req (shinies?) and cigarettes, the most to eat and kill, the most glory to gain from attacking. Bandits raid insignificant villages, armies take cities.

(Idea even without the rest of Invasion within here)
Hunting in an outpost that is currently being Invaded, but the walls still hold, 1) counts for fighting the group as far as it's population, and 2) results in a significant stam buff to hunting, which is something that would make sense to be in place already, really. If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them? Even without implementing the rest of this idea, I really think that the stam buff would both make sense, and encourage people to help out outposts at Critical or Interesting. Hunting within the Group should also have a stam buff.. After all they're right there, aren't they? Perhaps a bigger buff based on the population of the band you are hunting? More targets, easier to find.

Perhaps, like Titans, have a bonus Req reward for actions against these groups, and favor as well? I'd love a way to gain favor during a day, other than the incredibly minute chance of the old man rewarding you with favor instead of stealing a cigarette, or, y'know, boating you.. Anyways, I'd much prefer a Favor reward over a Req reward. You can earn Req all over the place.. Favor is hard to come by when you try to DK every few days, but going further into that would start to turn this into an entirely different discussion.


Alright, so there's my proposal.. Whatd'ya think?


 
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Trowa
 Tuesday, April 17 2012 @ 01:30 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Full Metal Lion
 Tuesday, April 17 2012 @ 06:41 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Clueless

Alright, so there's my proposal.. Whatd'ya think?


1) This needs it's own thread.
2) I believe each square is supposed to be 1 km squared, making the entire island 1000 km squared (25*40).
3) I realized something: This is like Titans, re-imagined to be horizontal instead of vertical and to be smarter.
3b) Or if Titans and Onslaught were put in a blender.
4) The "warboss" should be called a "God".
5) The Gods should be stronger.


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, April 17 2012 @ 09:47 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Clueless

Alright, so there's my proposal.. Whatd'ya think?

4) The "warboss" should be called a "God".
5) The Gods should be stronger.

No gods, please! Especially not as warbosses. Gods would clash horribly with the rest of the canon.*

* Undead Dreaming Catfish God and his mother The Living Nightmare Tigershark Goddess are delightful as individual Improbability-created monsters, equal in strength to any other monster of the same level. But 'gods' don't receive any special privileges or powers on the Island when they're player characters, and it would set a very bad precedent to make one into a big canon warboss of a monster army. This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Tuesday, April 17 2012 @ 10:10 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Titans, anyone? Neutral


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, April 17 2012 @ 10:26 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Titans, anyone? Neutral

The Island's Titans are nothing like the mythological Titans. Ours are called Titans 'cause they're big, is all.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Tuesday, April 17 2012 @ 10:49 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Titans, anyone? Neutral

The Island's Titans are nothing like the mythological Titans. Ours are called Titans 'cause they're big, is all.


Oh, you were worried about brushing with more of the mythology. All right. I just wanted to call them Gods because they were (will be? Will have been, possibly) smaller than Titans, but still awesome.
Don't make me mention the succubus.


 
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Count Sessine
 Tuesday, April 17 2012 @ 11:19 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.


Titans, anyone? Neutral

The Island's Titans are nothing like the mythological Titans. Ours are called Titans 'cause they're big, is all.


Oh, you were worried about brushing with more of the mythology. All right. I just wanted to call them Gods because they were (will be? Will have been, possibly) smaller than Titans, but still awesome.

Oh. Sorry, seems I totally missed your point! Oops!

One might want to call them Knights, also smaller than Titans but still powerful, except of course that would then be open to a medieval misinterpretation. (Besides -- pop culture.)


 
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Clueless
 Wednesday, April 18 2012 @ 12:07 AM UTC  
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Ok, made a thread for my splinter, because it seems to be derailing things!

Please go [urlhttp://enquirer.improbableisland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=27636]Here[/url] for all Onslaught by Invasion discussion Mr. Green


 
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dizzyizzy
 Wednesday, April 18 2012 @ 03:42 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Count+Sessine


This is Science Fiction. Gods, devils, demons, fallen angels, and other supernatural entities have no place in the Island's official story.



Or the unofficial story, i.e. roleplay. Can we fight about this again? It's been a while.


 
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CavemanJoe
 Wednesday, April 18 2012 @ 10:40 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?



I was starting to think "Hell, I'm gonna start fucking with the Stamina cost for Hunting to get people around the different Outposts," but didn't think my players would go for it so I shelved the idea for later consideration.

But if my players are bringing it up... Twisted Evil


 
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Awesome Fred
 Thursday, April 19 2012 @ 06:08 AM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?



I was starting to think "Hell, I'm gonna start fucking with the Stamina cost for Hunting to get people around the different Outposts," but didn't think my players would go for it so I shelved the idea for later consideration.

But if my players are bringing it up... Twisted Evil



DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT


 
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Clueless
 Thursday, April 19 2012 @ 07:15 AM UTC  
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Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?



I was starting to think "Hell, I'm gonna start fucking with the Stamina cost for Hunting to get people around the different Outposts," but didn't think my players would go for it so I shelved the idea for later consideration.

But if my players are bringing it up... Twisted Evil




YEEEESSSSSSS!!!!

The people who don't care about DKs still aren't going to care, and the people who care about DKs are going to have reason to drag the others to the less traveled outposts! I think.

However I'd not recommend penalizing costs if all outposts are Peaceful. Perhaps set up an Average Threat, and depending on how far above/below the Average an individual outpost is, the more/less buff/debuff occurs there! Just so that when the Isle is peaceful we're not penalizing people for doing a good job on threat levels (well, any more than the reduced Req payouts.. Speaking of which, do those on an Average as well? Mr. Green )



Also, I coulda sworn I fixed the link in my last post on page 11.. But now I can't even edit it. How annoying!


 
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Ada
 Thursday, April 19 2012 @ 03:05 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Clueless

Quote by: CavemanJoe

Quote by: Trowa

Quote by: Clueless

If the flavor text says that the monsters are literally all over the walls, why the heck should it take as much energy as, say, for a human, travelling a few kilometers (Or whatever the unit of distance is..), you can get from NH to Central for, without a mount, with no levels in travelling, 2.5% stam, 3NE 1N, 1NW, following the plains. Why should it take as much energy as walking between cities to find a monster when they're so thick you can walk on them?


That...is actually something I'd like to know, too. I mean, I always just assumed it was because the Outpost flavour texts describe the NPC guards on the walls attacking the monsters outside the gates, and you don't want to get caught in the cross-fire. But still, any time you go hunting during a very high threat level, you're walking into a swarm. I imagine it would be a lot easier to find monsters of any level at that point, at least until the threat level drops. Maybe there could even be a stamina debuff when the threat levels are too low? Then hard-core hunters would seek out outposts with the higher threat level so they don't spend as much stamina.

I have to imagine implementing a buff for all players in a specific outpost would be a pain, though, especially since it would have to be four buffs, one each for the different types of hunting. Probably easier than trying to organize the monsters into units, though?



I was starting to think "Hell, I'm gonna start fucking with the Stamina cost for Hunting to get people around the different Outposts," but didn't think my players would go for it so I shelved the idea for later consideration.

But if my players are bringing it up... Twisted Evil




YEEEESSSSSSS!!!!

The people who don't care about DKs still aren't going to care, and the people who care about DKs are going to have reason to drag the others to the less traveled outposts! I think.

However I'd not recommend penalizing costs if all outposts are Peaceful. Perhaps set up an Average Threat, and depending on how far above/below the Average an individual outpost is, the more/less buff/debuff occurs there! Just so that when the Isle is peaceful we're not penalizing people for doing a good job on threat levels (well, any more than the reduced Req payouts.. Speaking of which, do those on an Average as well? Mr. Green )



Also, I coulda sworn I fixed the link in my last post on page 11.. But now I can't even edit it. How annoying!




Definitely agreed here, especially for NewHome. It's almost always at reduced req payouts, which is a bit of a rough way to get started as a newbie. Having it harder to find monsters, too, would be even more unfair.

Though I have to admit I don't know why we're still concerned with getting people to "less-travelled" outposts. This is what the threat levels look like right now, which is pretty standard for recently:
Improbable Central: Quiet Times (87,466,623 Defense Hitpoints)
Cyber City 404: Minor Activity (5,903,437 Defense Hitpoints)
NewHome: Peaceful Days (reduced Requisition payouts) (6,353,477 Defense Hitpoints)
Kittania: Quiet Times (6,228,755 Defense Hitpoints)
New Pittsburgh: Minor Activity (8,245,964 Defense Hitpoints)
Pleasantville: Peaceful Days (reduced Requisition payouts) (117,952,544 Defense Hitpoints)
Squat Hole: Quiet Times (22,554,161 Defense Hitpoints)
AceHigh: Minor Activity (5,515,213 Defense Hitpoints)

Sure, the regularly less-visited outposts are at the highest threat level, but they're still in no danger at all. I think there's only been one breach, in Cyb, since the council offices had wall hp readouts and the loudspeakers were installed. Why send more people to Cyb-AH-NP? They're already safe.


 
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