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Clueless
 Thursday, April 19 2012 @ 04:44 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada

Though I have to admit I don't know why we're still concerned with getting people to "less-travelled" outposts. This is what the threat levels look like right now, which is pretty standard for recently:


Quote by: Ada
Sure, the regularly less-visited outposts are at the highest threat level, but they're still in no danger at all. I think there's only been one breach, in Cyb, since the council offices had wall hp readouts and the loudspeakers were installed. Why send more people to Cyb-AH-NP? They're already safe.


The problem isn't 24/7, thankfully, but what about, say, two months ago, when NP, AH, and 404 were almost permanently breached? There wasn't a day for a long time when one of them wasn't at least at Interesting Times.. Heck New Pitts and Ace are about to go to Critical right now it seems, which I plan on stopping (Wait, Stonehenge boat visit. Owell..), but one person can only do so much. Safe at the moment isn't the same thing as a safe outpost; I've definitely seen Ace, NP, and perhaps Central go critical or worse a few times during the past week.. Probably because I tend to keep odd hours compared to the majority of players, but it still happens, and we shouldn't depend on a few players to keep those outposts afloat, they won't always be around to help. That we ever have so many outposts in such dire need as to have even two, far less three breached at a time is a sign that something is wrong. It's a war zone, but not one hopelessly lost.


As far as not penalizing newbies, perhaps have the stam buff/debuffs N/A to characters with zero DKs? Or perhaps just the debuff? Something to help start off, just like the breach immunity until level 10.


And beyond Threat levels- Why not spread the players out a bit more? Those outposts are just as perfect for RP as the others, with different, newer possibilities! NewHome and Kitt just get far too crowded sometimes as well, I'll forsake them because I can't pay constant attention, and every time I glance in, even if it's been only five minutes, there are two entire pages to check for things pertaining to me, my character, my group, yadda yadda.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Thursday, April 19 2012 @ 05:43 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada


Definitely agreed here, especially for NewHome. It's almost always at reduced req payouts, which is a bit of a rough way to get started as a newbie.

They do have those free grenades.
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And beyond Threat levels- Why not spread the players out a bit more? Those outposts are just as perfect for RP as the others, with different, newer possibilities! NewHome and Kitt just get far too crowded sometimes as well, I'll forsake them because I can't pay constant attention, and every time I glance in, even if it's been only five minutes, there are two entire pages to check for things pertaining to me, my character, my group, yadda yadda.

I agree. Seems NH and Kit (and FailBoat) are the only two places I can strike up a conversation. But I'm told those who are there and chatting wouldn't be affected by the Stam costs for hunting. Because they mostly chat.


 
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Ada
 Thursday, April 19 2012 @ 07:26 PM UTC  
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I agree. Seems NH and Kit (and FailBoat) are the only two places I can strike up a conversation. But I'm told those who are there and chatting wouldn't be affected by the Stam costs for hunting. Because they mostly chat.



This exactly. They are there to chat. Making it easy to DK somewhere else is not going to make them go there. People who just want to chat are going to sit in NewHome and Kittania like they pretty much always have. There's nothing wrong with that and no reason to move them.

About the grenades - any human player gets free grenades. It's not really a huge help to rookies in particular. Having the stam buffs set to N/A for players with 0 DKs (or even less than 5 - really, the 2nd DK isn't that much easier - imagine going from human to kittymorph AND getting the stam debuff all in one go) sounds like a good idea. Though I don't really think it's reasonable to debuff players just for playing where they want to play (do we really want to make it suck more than it already does to go questing?). Simply giving a stamina buff in the monster-loaded outposts seems more fair; though, to be honest, I think the increased req is a big enough reward as it is. Making it easier to fight in outposts in trouble will disproportionately benefit established players - and before someone suggests debuffing those players for being established, that doesn't sound any more fair to me either.



Clueless: What about two months ago? Two months ago was before the outpost hitpoints in Council Offices and before loudspeakers. It doesn't make any sense to hold something that happened before an update that seems to have changed things as evidence for why we should change them further. If you are still deeply unsatisfied with how things are now - that's something else.


 
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Trowa
 Thursday, April 19 2012 @ 08:12 PM UTC  
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Well, I'm not so much concerned with moving players around, I was just wondering about the stamina costs. It would be attractive to players like me who play this game for more than just chat. When the req payouts changed, it was a big deal for a week or two, and then I haven't seen anyone mention it since (until this thread). I don't have a problem with people who stay in New Home and Kittania, far be it from me to tell them what to do (and quite frankly, I've found much of the discussion on that topic to be quite silly).

My question (Clue's idea) was more along the lines of why does it cost more stamina to hunt down monsters among a swarm supposedly battering down the walls than it does to travel to the next outpost? When the walls breach, hunting costs nothing because the monsters come to you. The moment you step into the jungle, though, the monsters lose all interest in you.

It'd be like if the jungle were breached, but not the outpost yet. (Oh that's evil, innit?!)


Something something unintelligible gibberish something.
 
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Clueless
 Thursday, April 19 2012 @ 11:21 PM UTC  
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Quote by: AdaThis exactly. They are there to chat. Making it easy to DK somewhere else is not going to make them go there. People who just want to chat are going to sit in NewHome and Kittania like they pretty much always have. There's nothing wrong with that and no reason to move them.


I agree with there being nothing wrong with them being there, but there are reasons to move people, like I said during peak hours it gets too busy, and this dissuades people who can't spare every moment to the Isle from getting in Story, as well as those who are inexperienced- They look at story, have no idea what is going on and can't catch up. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have five (active in story) people each in Kitt, Central, and PV rather than 2 in Central, 2 in PV, and 11 in Kitt. Numbers just an example. I'd rather have twenty five people in every outpost! (And then I'd just drag a few off to Places to avoid the crowd.)


Quote by: Ada
About the grenades - any human player gets free grenades. It's not really a huge help to rookies in particular. Having the stam buffs set to N/A for players with 0 DKs (or even less than 5 - really, the 2nd DK isn't that much easier - imagine going from human to kittymorph AND getting the stam debuff all in one go) sounds like a good idea. Though I don't really think it's reasonable to debuff players just for playing where they want to play (do we really want to make it suck more than it already does to go questing?). Simply giving a stamina buff in the monster-loaded outposts seems more fair; though, to be honest, I think the increased req is a big enough reward as it is. Making it easier to fight in outposts in trouble will disproportionately benefit established players - and before someone suggests debuffing those players for being established, that doesn't sound any more fair to me either.


The defbuff isn't really my idea, I'd say that it be pretty small, and only during Peaceful Threat, because there are really almost no monsters around.. Or do without the debuff, but this is all up to CMJ.. As for Req being enough incentive, it obviously isn't enough to get most people out and around. To get the Story only folks to go to other outposts you need Story there, typically, and one way of getting Story there is to draw Hunters there, some of us like to Story quite a bit, I don't know everyone who is a heavy hunter and Storrier, but from what I've seen those of us who like hunting the most will travel outwards anyways, but typically we're alone, those who hunt less, but still Story a bunch tend to stick in NH, Kitt, and sometimes Central, because that's where the Story is, and there isn't enough incentive to go elsewhere.. If we draw out more of the casual hunters there will be enough people to have more regular Story in the other Outposts, and the Story only folk will probably follow their friends, or strike out simply because they can go somewhere new and actually do something there with other people. PV used to be very regularly storied in, and Central isn't too desolate. We might not have enough people to have all the Outposts as story active as we'd like, but if we have more of a player base through PV and Central they are far more likely to go to Ace, NP, and 404, as those other Outposts will be closer, and they'll have access to the awesome food in PV to support the stam cost of going that far.


Quote by: Ada
Clueless: What about two months ago? Two months ago was before the outpost hitpoints in Council Offices and before loudspeakers. It doesn't make any sense to hold something that happened before an update that seems to have changed things as evidence for why we should change them further. If you are still deeply unsatisfied with how things are now - that's something else.[/p]


I highly doubt that the loudspeakers and wall HP displays did that, all the HP display really does is tell you whether or not an Outpost is breached, or about to breach, instead of just at Interesting Times. This is useful, I agree, there are times when you just don't want to risk going to Ace if it is breached but you can't tell, however this is not the reason that the Northern Outposts are safer, for now, than before. I took Ace, 404, and NewPitts up to green Threat levels maybe dozens of times during some of the dark times, so it was obvious that they were not about to breach, but regardless of knowing that the outposts were not breached, as the HP display does, those outposts would still fall back to Critical/Interesting within a day. Therefore knowing that an outpost was not breached is not what helped it's threat in a major way. The problem was the fallout from the holiday season, there were far fewer players online and hunting, and the Outposts suffered greatly, we only finally and more than temporarily recovered from it when CMJ tweaked the numbers for Threat level change.. There were more people active in the Northern outposts before the slump, and it just hasn't gotten back to that state yet. We can support the Outposts being at reasonable Threat levels with the former settings, we were doing it before, we can do it again... We just need enough of the player base to spread out..

Which brings me to the only thing that I am unsatisfied about- the player distribution. There's all the other outposts, great for RP, and for those that like to hunt on the side some of them have better drinks, and PV better food! For robots 404 has the only useable bar outside of the PSK. In the middle of the night of most of the player base when there are 20-25 people on I don't expect every Outpost to be active.. Hell I've seen every Outpost Story dead before, for several hours even.. But when there are 100~ people online- having everyone in two Outposts is silly.



My question as to what is wrong with offering incentives to spread out players still stands. None of my suggestions force anyone to do anything, they're all opportunities. (The stam debuff was Trowa's addition to my idea, which I totally did mindreading on CMJ to have in the first place. Yep. Swear on, uhh... Something inconsequential.)


 
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Ada
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 12:23 AM UTC  
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Right now there are 100 players online. 13 people are in NewHome. 9 in IC. 15 in Kittania. That's including my character in each number, so take me out of the equation in each for a total of only 34 people in those outposts. That means 65 (let's not count me again) players are not in NH, IC, or Kitt. That's nearly 2/3 - and there is no story happening in any of the other outposts. 2/3 of the players have left NH, IC, and Kitt - and they aren't writing in the other outposts, either. Everyone is not in two outposts - everyone is writing in two (or, now, three, though two is more common). That's not the same thing, and I'm skeptical that encouraging hunters to leave would change the numbers much.

I don't doubt that the loudspeakers and hp displays contributed to the ease in onslaught. I suspect we may have also had the overall difficulty nudged, but the fact is that for at least a month before that change outposts were continually breached; since that change, outposts almost never breach. While the change may have many, many factors, it was instantaneous - and I can't really see an instant change as "fallout from the holiday season".


 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 01:04 AM UTC  
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The reason Onslaught isn't being totally axed is because it's not totally undesirable. It's 1) an interesting game feature and 2) a great reminder of the war-focused setting of the island.

The biggest problem we had with Onslaught, however, was that it made it difficult for players to access the northern cities. We reasoned as a whole that if we could encourage players to redistribute themselves across the world map, it would make northern cities defended again.

We had a lot of trouble getting players to redistribute themselves without providing unbalancing incentives. We gave increased Req payouts, we increased the amount of unique features in the northern cities, we made players more aware of which cities needed help, etc. They weren't enough.

But now?

I guess maybe the problem might be solved. Maybe we don't need to work at moving population around for the sake of northern cities. Maybe getting the players to fan out to other cities more evenly is an unnecessary goal now.



But as a power player, I would love to visit more of the island as I play to optimize my performance. It becomes another factor to weigh between which outpost for req, which one for food convenience, which one for Danquest, which one near my dwelling, etc. I would totally love it if we had variable Hunting stamina costs.


 
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Clueless
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 01:18 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Ada


I don't doubt that the loudspeakers and hp displays contributed to the ease in onslaught. I suspect we may have also had the overall difficulty nudged, but the fact is that for at least a month before that change outposts were continually breached; since that change, outposts almost never breach. While the change may have many, many factors, it was instantaneous - and I can't really see an instant change as "fallout from the holiday season".



The fallout I mean was everything still being breached/Threatened like mad becuase no one got around to getting back out to the other outposts, building the walls up beyond a million HP, and hanging around. Everything got fixed because of CMJ nudging the numbers, as was mentioned.. Somewhere on the forum, I don't remember where exactly though.. Threat happens far more slowly now it seems.


 
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Clueless
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 03:56 PM UTC  
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I hate to double post, but I can't edit after this long..


Just as a reminder about Threat levels, and how they definitely are still a concern..

Improbable Central: Minor Activity
Cyber City 404: Assistance Required (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
NewHome: Minor Activity
Kittania: Peaceful Days (reduced Requisition payouts)
New Pittsburgh: Interesting Times (doubled Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
Pleasantville: Critical Situation (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
Squat Hole: Critical Situation (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
AceHigh: Assistance Required (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)


Five of the outposts are so threatened that Req payouts are increased. Only Kittania is 'Safe'.


And with that, I need sleep, it's 0100 here.. Have fun with the Threat guys and gals~


 
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Count Sessine
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 04:54 PM UTC  
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Quote by: Clueless

Just as a reminder about Threat levels, and how they definitely are still a concern..

Improbable Central: Minor Activity
Cyber City 404: Assistance Required (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
NewHome: Minor Activity
Kittania: Peaceful Days (reduced Requisition payouts)
New Pittsburgh: Interesting Times (doubled Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
Pleasantville: Critical Situation (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
Squat Hole: Critical Situation (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)
AceHigh: Assistance Required (increased Requisition payouts unless Outpost is breached)


Five of the outposts are so threatened that Req payouts are increased. Only Kittania is 'Safe'.


And with that, I need sleep, it's 0100 here.. Have fun with the Threat guys and gals~

That looks to be tuned about right, to me. Not so bad that outposts are perpetually breached, but not so boring that we all forget there's a war on.

We're going to see daily fluctuations -- threat levels will creep up when there are only 15 players logged into the Island, but they'll be beaten right back down again when we have 115.


 
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Awesome Fred
 Friday, April 20 2012 @ 11:16 PM UTC  
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The weather is not the season. The season is not the climate. We need to record average durations of breaches, not random time-check data points.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Saturday, April 21 2012 @ 12:06 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred

The weather is not the season. The season is not the climate.


But the hawk is the handsaw!

... I haven't seen a breach since everything went comparatively quiet. But I hear one happened in cc404. Regardless! We need graphs and charts! They will make our decisions more accurate. However, just breaches isn't enough! We need a nice record of the threat & wall levels in all the outposts, recorded, say, hourly. (Unless breaches clear up under an hour.)


 
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Awesome Fred
 Saturday, April 21 2012 @ 12:16 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Full+Metal+Lion

Quote by: Awesome+Fred

The weather is not the season. The season is not the climate.


But the hawk is the handsaw!

... I haven't seen a breach since everything went comparatively quiet. But I hear one happened in cc404. Regardless! We need graphs and charts! They will make our decisions more accurate. However, just breaches isn't enough! We need a nice record of the threat & wall levels in all the outposts, recorded, say, hourly. (Unless breaches clear up under an hour.)



I thought the issue was breaches. If nothing stays breached for more than 2 hours per breach on average, and no city is breached for more than 8 hours per 168 (a 7-day week), then hasn't the issue been solved?

Nevertheless, if you do want to record other variables, you're free to do so. I can see the merit of collecting that data in case we went too far in the opposite direction.


 
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Full Metal Lion
 Saturday, April 21 2012 @ 12:28 AM UTC  
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Quote by: Awesome+Fred


I thought the issue was breaches. If nothing stays breached for more than 2 hours per breach on average, and no city is breached for more than 8 hours per 168 (a 7-day week), then hasn't the issue been solved?

Nevertheless, if you do want to record other variables, you're free to do so. I can see the merit of collecting that data in case we went too far in the opposite direction.


Plus, I'd get to see how the numbers change behind my back (I suspect they go up).


 
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Buddleia
 Saturday, April 21 2012 @ 01:25 PM UTC  
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/ raises hand /

I hereby volunteer to make graphs and charts if people want to send me data ...


I guess it would be hourly, ideally. Or at least daily (at the same time each day). Assuming that CMJ doesn't have some bit of code that will record/display this automagically, and that we need to take point data samples.

So, anyone want to sign up to take Onslaught/Breach readings? I think we'd need a rotating team of people who can pop into the Council Offices on the hour every hour, each person doing a section of the day, so that a) we get full coverage and b) I'm not drowned in overlapping Distractions.


Improbable Reference Links - goo.gl/MRBnb -------------- Land Registry (map of Places) ---- goo.gl/bpkRR
 
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Full Metal Lion
 Saturday, April 21 2012 @ 05:22 PM UTC  
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I can volunteer for GMT 23:00-2:00. And a bit of code that would do this would be nice. Like some greasemonkey-fu or something. But whatever.


 
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Count Sessine
 Saturday, April 21 2012 @ 05:49 PM UTC  
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I don't know anything about greasemonkey scripting, but Buddleia and I have been experimenting with gdoc Forms for gathering the data. If we can get it all pretty and streamlined, would some of you guys be interested in using that instead of copy/pasting the council display into a distraction to her?


 
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Buddleia
 Tuesday, April 24 2012 @ 12:50 AM UTC  
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Sessine has been wonderfully patient with my pedantry, and made a beautiful form and sensible spreadsheet from my first tabled efforts.



This is the form!


You just need to click once for each outpost, selecting a toggle. No typing or copy-pasting levels or wall numbers; just select the alert level number - whether each outpost is in Peaceful Days, Quiet Times, or right up to Breached.

So, if anyone would like to help gather data - just open that, pop into the council offices, and click as appropriate. When you hit Submit on the form, it will automatically add a row of timestamped data to the spreadsheet. Ideally it'd be collected hourly, but if we have some gaps it won't really matter, and if ten people do a form in one hour it also won't really matter!

Oh, and, of course you can see the spreadsheet of numbers, too. And graphs. We made graphs.


Improbable Reference Links - goo.gl/MRBnb -------------- Land Registry (map of Places) ---- goo.gl/bpkRR
 
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Full Metal Lion
 Tuesday, April 24 2012 @ 01:32 AM UTC  
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Wonderful! Of course, I immediately submitted some numbers that were unhelpfully similar to what they were 4 minutes before, but that is still progress! Thank you.


 
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Lunatick
 Tuesday, April 24 2012 @ 10:23 AM UTC  
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That's pretty damn interesting. I can't wait to see what it looks like in a few months so long as we all keep up on it.


I love spambots: I'm in mania to here Tickled pink as thwack to obligation on a glimpse of you all
 
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